Re: irc.debian.org
On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:55:27 +0200 Josip Rodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If such a thing happens, at least we have an option. An OFTC source which also prefers anonymity ;) told me that they wouldn't solicit moving irc.debian.org server CNAME to irc.oftc.net, but that they would gladly accept it if we asked. Actually, I needn't remain anonymous :) We (OFTC staff) discussed a long time ago what we're going to do about projects which could use OFTC services. We weren't sure how to let them know that we were available. In other words, we didn't know what kind of advertising we should use. We ended up deciding, none. OFTC is still just getting started. Our IRC servers are really quite good and almost 100% ready to go, but we've not implemented project registration, nor project mailing lists, nor project web space, ... you get the idea. Debian needs none of those things that aren't implemented, so obviously those features aren't particularily germane to the discussion, but I thought it was worth saying. Anyways, in the end we decided not to advertise, not to solicit projects in any way, shape, or form. There's too much room for misunderstanding. Right now OFTC only offers IRC, and IRC already has a reputation as not being a real communications medium. So we don't want the IRC part of OFTC to bring down the rest of it (the rest of it isn't in place yet, bear with us :). Would we do our best to support Debian if they started using OFTC's IRC services? Yes, of course. But we can't actually invite Debian, just because too many people would deliberately misinterpret the invitation as something unethical. -- \ David B. Harris, Systems administrator | http://www.terrabox.com / / [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://eelf.ddts.net \ \==/ / Clan Barclay motto: Aut agere, aut mori. (Either action, or death.) \ pgpAWldELnJup.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: irc.debian.org
On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 05:55:27PM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote: I would like the fundraising notices on OPN to stop. Hundreds and thousands Debian users are not subject to such things in the rest of Debian, they should not be subject to it when they join IRC looking for help in #debian. I think other Debian developers would agree with me, but I'm asking on this list to be sure -- what do you think? I'd like them to stop as well. I talked to some OPN people and to some OFTC people, exploring our options. An OPN source that wishes to remain anonymous ;) has told me that lilo would like to keep #debian (and #debian*), so if we showed that we really dislike the fundraising spam, they might stop sending it. OFTC seems attractive. I think it is worth pursuing a move to OFTC if it means the end of the spam. We have successfully worked with OPN for years. Several Debian developers were also OPN admins, and several still are. I would hate to see us depart, but OPN definitely seems to be going into a different direction than we are. I agree. Once again, what do you people think? I have founded and maintain several irc channels at OPN. My reason for establishing them on OPN was to be on the same network as the rest of the Debian community. If Debian moves to OFTC, I will be asking my users to consider moving to OFTC as well. Basically, I want to stay where the free software community is. If, on the other hand, the problems with OPN administration can be resolved without resorting to a move, so much the better. Regards, Ben -- nSLUG http://www.nslug.ns.ca [EMAIL PROTECTED] Debian http://www.debian.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ pgp key fingerprint = 7F DA 09 4B BA 2C 0D E0 1B B1 31 ED C6 A9 39 4F ] [ gpg key fingerprint = 395C F3A4 35D3 D247 1387 2D9E 5A94 F3CA 0B27 13C8 ]
Re: irc.debian.org
On Fre, 16 Aug 2002, Josip Rodin wrote: Hello, Once again, what do you people think? I would like to see irc.debian.org moving to a IRC network without this daily requests for money/spam. Or maybe there are interested DD who want to setup and run a own debian.org/SPI IRCnetwork. -- Noèl Köthe
Re: irc.debian.org
Once again, what do you people think? Change the CNAME now.
Re: irc.debian.org
As a past tier-1 distribution hub for debian i'd like to suggest that debian take the democratic path and poll it's members and users about this. Finding out what the debian community thinks would be an excelent tool for helping with the decision of whether or not to move. Granted, I am also a part of the oftc core comittee, but I am also an active supporter of Debian and will be rejoining soon. I had worked hard to help keep tings as serious and rational as possible durring the formation of OFTC and it's constitution. I'm VERY proud to have been a part of the excelent and dedicated team that was voted into place to run OFTC. Brian Wolfe TerraBox.com OFTC.net On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 05:42:58PM -0400, Clint Adams wrote: Once again, what do you people think? Change the CNAME now. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- TerraBox.comFingerprint: 2849 5090 D4E0 2A6C C648 A750 52F8 8504 67DB 205C
Re: irc.debian.org
On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Josip Rodin wrote: Once again, what do you people think? I would welcome a move to OFTC too. yours, peter -- PGP signed and encrypted | .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** messages preferred.| : :' : The universal | `. `' Operating System http://www.palfrader.org/ | `-http://www.debian.org/ pgpPyVgwEnpxc.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: irc.debian.org
Hi all, I just wanted to comment on the thread. The Debian project has been with OPN since before 1998. You've grown, we've grown. Maintaining a two hundred client network wasn't that difficult. But the network has gotten quite a bit larger. It's not all Debian, by any means. There are quite a few projects on OPN, now freenode. I think the Debian project benefits from the cross- fertilization, from the exposure to other groups and other projects. We'd hate to see you leave the network. Maintaining a 7,000+ client IRC network as a 24/7, friendly, useful place to interact is not easy. It takes coordination. Finding time to coordinate such a project was much simpler during the Internet boom. But the Internet boom is over, and it's harder to allocate the time when there are not so many employers willing to give people time to work on community projects. Our parent organization, Peer-Directed Projects Center, has just started up. We need a small operational budget just to have the resources to proceed. PDPC is a non-profit corporation. It has applied for IRS 501(c)(3) status and that application is currently pending. One of the aims of the non-profit is to ensure that the network remains in existence and continues to improve in terms of stability and quality. There are plenty of funding sources for a non-profit. Grants come to mind. But they are generally project-oriented, and they take time to research. And grants are not generally made to pay for initial operating budgets. So we've started a fundraising campaign, designed to raise a small, initial operating budget. We're asking for voluntary contributions on the network. Since global notices are annoying, we've tried to come up with a workable compromise. We're putting up a total of two global notices per day, and we're putting them up via a single client, called FUNDRAISING. We've posted directions on how to ignore the notices in three places: the IRC MOTD, the network FAQ on the new freenode site (http://freenode.info/faq.shtml#fundraising) and on the contrib page (http://freenode.info/contrib.shtml). It's not ideal, but as the FAQ says, to raise funds you have to ask for them, and to ask for them you have to be heard. I know it's not the usual approach. The conventional wisdom is that IRC is supposed to be free as in beer. But we've put a lot of effort into maintaining the network, and I hope that a number of you feel we've done a good job. All we're asking is the opportunity to keep at it, and to keep serving the Debian project. No one has to contribute. But the only place we're going to be heard when we ask for contributions is on the network. We're not a weblog or a news site. We're an interactive discussion medium. Anyway, as you talk this over, please bear in mind that nobody is trying to make money from the Debian project. We're trying to keep a service running that we think is unique, and considerably more useful than the average IRC network. We hope you'll let us keep providing that service to you. Thanks, Rob Levin Executive Director, PDPC Head of Staff, freenode that OPN guy
Re: irc.debian.org
On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:36:09 +0200 Noel Koethe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again, what do you people think? I would like to see irc.debian.org moving to a IRC network without this daily requests for money/spam. Or maybe there are interested DD who want to setup and run a own debian.org/SPI IRCnetwork. Actually, I've suggested that myself a few times :) Bdale seemed quite interested in it; obviously with OFTC I haven't had the time to make up anything specifically for Debian, but I don't think it's a bad idea in and of itself. Unfortunately, the response you'll most likely hear is Debian doesn't do IRC. :) -- \ David B. Harris, Systems administrator | http://www.terrabox.com / / [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://eelf.ddts.net \ \==/ / Clan Barclay motto: Aut agere, aut mori. (Either action, or death.) \ pgp9FhdPRwOtA.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: irc.debian.org
Previously Noel Koethe wrote: Or maybe there are interested DD who want to setup and run a own debian.org/SPI IRCnetwork. OFTC is a SPI supported project now, just like Debian, so you could argue it fullfills that desire already. For the SPI resolution see http://www.spi-inc.org/corporate/resolutions/resolution-2002-07-02.iwj.5.html Wichert. -- _ /[EMAIL PROTECTED] This space intentionally left occupied \ | [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.wiggy.net/ | | 1024D/2FA3BC2D 576E 100B 518D 2F16 36B0 2805 3CB8 9250 2FA3 BC2D |
Re: irc.debian.org
On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 06:01:21PM -0500, Rob Levin wrote: to raise funds you have to ask for them, and to ask for them you have to be heard. Well, let me provide a counterexample. Debian has some funds from the time of the dot-com boom. But basically don't use the money - what we do is entirely donation based, and that means server hardware and admin work time for about two dozen machines completely owned by us, and the same for three hundred mirrors around the world, and of course the stuff needed to actually make the distribution. And whatever else we need -- it's all taken care of without ever soliciting for donations the way OPN has been doing. (Some of the older developers might correct me for pre-1998, which was before I joined, but I doubt it.) -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Re: irc.debian.org
Once again, what do you people think? aolI too, would welcome a move to OFTC./aol pgpRoN3U8q8Dq.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: irc.debian.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (David B Harris) writes: Or maybe there are interested DD who want to setup and run a own debian.org/SPI IRCnetwork. Bdale seemed quite interested in it... Actually, what I observed was that of the various IRC channels that I spend time on personally, the ones that seem to be the least irritating and the most useful are the ones where a single, non-IRC-networked server is hosting the channel. Bdale
Re: irc.debian.org
I've generally stayed quiet on this topic, but I like opn. The asking for donations has never bothered me at all. I tend to agree with Rob on things also thouggh. I'd hate to see debian move, but I know I can't stop it either. -- Deedra Waters [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web-page http://www.dmwaters.org Make sure your E-mail can be read by everyone! http://www.betips.net/etc/evilmail.html Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
Re: irc.debian.org
On 16 Aug 2002 17:32:01 -0600 Bdale Garbee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, what I observed was that of the various IRC channels that I spend time on personally, the ones that seem to be the least irritating and the most useful are the ones where a single, non-IRC-networked server is hosting the channel. I've experienced the same myself. -- \ David B. Harris, Systems administrator | http://www.terrabox.com / / [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://eelf.ddts.net \ \==/ / Clan Barclay motto: Aut agere, aut mori. (Either action, or death.) \ pgpARf4a2MQrN.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: irc.debian.org
Previously Rob Levin wrote: I will point out that we were linpeople.org when the Debian project joined us, and linpeople.org began in 1995, well before the boom picked up speed. And we're still here, after the dotcoms have pretty much folded. Which still makes it a pretty recent network :) If you'll look at the notes on http://freenode.info/contrib.shtml it may be helpful. Our initial operating budget consists of two half-time slots, one to work on coordinating the network, one to work on researching grants and starting other projects. The pay scale will be low sysadmin. In addition, we'll have a small hardware and office budget. No, it doesn't. I am still missing the answer to a simple question: the largest irc networks out there, which are a LOT larger then freenode, manage to run their network without any donations at all. So what makes freenode so special that it needs to hire volunteers? The initial projects PDPC intends to work on are described on that page as well. In addition to freenode (OPN), we'll be working on vocational, educational and advocacy programs. How will it be different from FSF, EFF, SPI, LI, OSI and others? They already have people, funds, etc. Why create yet another non-profit? If you'd like to have some idea of what's usual for the budget of a non-profit corporation with a small number of employees, you should probably look around on the canonical site for non-profits in the US, Guidestar (http://www.guidestar.com/). I don't, I want a good raison d'etre for the existance of PDPC and its need to hire people. I haven't managed to see one so far. Wichert. -- _ /[EMAIL PROTECTED] This space intentionally left occupied \ | [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.wiggy.net/ | | 1024D/2FA3BC2D 576E 100B 518D 2F16 36B0 2805 3CB8 9250 2FA3 BC2D |
Re: irc.debian.org
I will point out that we were linpeople.org when the Debian project joined us, and linpeople.org began in 1995, well before the boom picked up speed. And we're still here, after the dotcoms have pretty much folded. Which still makes it a pretty recent network :) True enough. We're not as young as OFTC, but we're only about 7 years old. If you'll look at the notes on http://freenode.info/contrib.shtml it may be helpful. Our initial operating budget consists of two half-time slots, one to work on coordinating the network, one to work on researching grants and starting other projects. The pay scale will be low sysadmin. In addition, we'll have a small hardware and office budget. No, it doesn't. I am still missing the answer to a simple question: the largest irc networks out there, which are a LOT larger then freenode, manage to run their network without any donations at all. So what makes freenode so special that it needs to hire volunteers? General-purpose IRC networks are a different beast from freenode. We're providing a considerably higher level of service than they routinely provide, and it's tailored to a specific set of communities. But, really, the question really comes down to whether you think freenode is doing a good job. If you do, presumably you'll accept our judgement on whether we need modest paid coordination. If you don't, then perhaps you should advocate moving Debian to a network you think better meets its needs. The initial projects PDPC intends to work on are described on that page as well. In addition to freenode (OPN), we'll be working on vocational, educational and advocacy programs. How will it be different from FSF, EFF, SPI, LI, OSI and others? They already have people, funds, etc. Why create yet another non-profit? No existing organization is working on the vocational or educational programs we're planning. Most advocacy programs center on high-tech business, rather than on industries which can support stable employment. But we're wandering afield, and I believe I've made all the comments I can usefully make. It's not my place to tell the Debian project that it should remain on freenode; all I can say is that we would be happy to continue to host you. But if the membership believes that freenode is not a useful place to be, or that two global notices a day in support of a fundraising campaign is unreasonable, we'll certainly understand. If you decide to stay, we'll be happy to accomodate you. If you decide to leave, we'll understand and just express our appreciation that you've been with us during very interesting times. Sincerely, Robert Levin Executive Director, PDPC
