Re: Linux ins Rathaus - Linux for german city administration
Thank you all for the many answers, also in private Mails! Regards, Frank -- Frank Küster, Biozentrum der Univ. Basel Abt. Biophysikalische Chemie
Re: Linux ins Rathaus - Linux for german city administration
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 07:31:42PM +0100, Frank K?ster wrote: Therefore I would be glad to hear whether any towns in Europe have yet done the switch and chosen Debian for that. Try to get a look at Open Source Observatory, starting from: http://europa.eu.int/ISPO/ida/jsps/index.jsp?fuseAction=showChapterchapterID=470preChapterID=0-452 it probably (IIRC) has some documents you might be interested in. Cosimo.
Some Comments on Sexism in #debian
Hello, my name is Matt R Hall. I am a student of computer engineering and German at the University of Pacific in Stockton, CA. IANAD (I Am Not A Developer), so I reserve my comments specifically to the IRC channel, where I have been present regularly since 1998 under the nickname mhall. I would like to offer some comments on the recent discussion turned flamewar regarding the issue of barriers to entry for women. In one of Mr. Srivastava's earlier posts documenting some problems that have happened in the channel, you probably noticed me trolling tam, who had been accusing helix of using the Lesbian Linux parody distribution on the basis she was female. The approach I have taken to those who abuse the women in #debian is to attempt to parody-troll them to show them how stupid their behavior is. In that particular case, tam refused to listen. It's not a perfect world. Before just very recently, when this thread brought some much-needed attention to the issue, the channel was (in my opinion) rather poor at noticing and combatting sexist and abusive behavior. When I was first present in 1998, the channel was averaged around 350-400 users. In my opinion the membership and traffic in the channel has kept rising beyond our capacity to administrate it. Another problem that has been hurting all IRC networks is the proliferation of better and better tools to abuse channels and servers, which I think has kept us from being able to progress in other areas, such as making the social environment as healthy as it could be. Perhaps it would be good to create a group of non-operators to act as semi-official catalysts, like those mentioned in lilo's freenode guidelines. As Mr. Harris noted to Mr. Srivastava (which was then sent to this list), there are 12 operators in #debian, which means we expect each one to be present at least 2 unique hours per day, assuming the task is equally divided. In my opinion that is probably not enough for a channel with 600+ people and such extreme traffic levels, which again lends some credence to the above possibility. I think that some influential regulars working together could stand a good chance of curbing some of the abuse problems that have been known together, through means other than a raw display of force. Next, I would like to say some words to those who have been saying that Debian doesn't discriminate against women. As far as IRC goes, IT DOES. ADMIT IT ALREADY. Every day the channel is filled with trolls and flamers abusing the few female regulars who boldly dare to frequent it. On top of that, there is a constant flow of sexist sexually suggestiv remarks (which was a deterrent mentioned in our favorite HOWTO Of The Week (TM)). Simply put, we can do better, I think we will do better thanks to the additional attention generated by this thread, and I hope we don't slide back down from the path to the pinnacle of success, because I greatly value the contribution brought by everyone to the channel, except the real trolls (not me, remember) and flamers, who can insert choice insult here.
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, 6 Mar 2004, Peter Samuelson wrote: All your pontificating about data and proof is a fine way to avoid the actual issue under discussion, which is that a social system (the Debian Project) is exhibiting the same symptom (fairly extreme under-representation of women) as other systems which have been studied and are similar to the Project in other ways. Well while we're pontificating...to what extent _is_ Debian a social system? It has one big fat signifier of being one -- a written social contract. It has some procedures, in-jokes (i.e. duelling banjos) and specialized vocabulary (ITP, debianize etc.) But on the other hand there is very little agreement on anything other than the desire to create a free, technically excellent operating system. And even there, there is disagreement on how free is free. A good number of made members of Debian don't even bother voting in project leader elections (I believe the turnout last year was 58%,) at the other extreme a group making a cd of open source software for Windows adopted the Debian Free Software Guidelines as their criteria even though they have nothing to do formally with Debian at all. How would you classify both poles in terms of being part of the Debian social system? Some developers just fix bugs in their packages as reports come in and thats it. Others breath, eat, and sleep Debian. I think most developers start with the former and progress (though usually not all the way!) towards the latter. The requirement to have a key signed by an existing developer which was adopted several years encouraged this trend. Now we have more frequent face-to-face meetings (such as debconf,) things like Planet Debian etc. which help put a more human face on those From: lines. Things of this nature would do a lot to decrese the levels of aggression. For instance one of the reasons I was able to shrug off Manoj's vituperation was because I've never seen him before and care not a whit what he thinks of me. Conversely, those Debianites who've met me might accuse me of a lot of things but being a big bag of dripping hacker testosterone is not going to be one of them. (I'm more like the guy smiling in the back of the photo. The one people know but can't remember the name of. But I digress.) If we knew each other better both of our reactions would be likely to be rather different. Here's the fly in the ointment though. While increasing the effectiveness of the Debian social system would help break down some barriers, it would raise others to people who already have extensive investment in other social systems. Any talk of representation has to take that into account. -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Manoj Srivastava wrote: OK. Last I heard, irc.debian.org #debian is a project resource. Here is an example of how women are treated in Debian; Ok at last we're at least moving into the realm of empirical data and I thank you for that but I must say you are engaging in a little rhetorical sleight of hand here over the words in Debian It has already been mentioned by others that very few Debian developers (arguably one good definition of what comprises Debian) ever go there. One could also note that a high proportion of IRC users in general are asshats and women get that sort of treatment almost everywhere. Which still makes it a problem but not a Debian specific one. Here are some other examples of how women are treated in Debian. In January 2003 (picked at random) there were 1601 posts to the debian-user mailing list. 55 of those (3.5%) were from female-sounding names as far as I can tell. No incidents of harrasment or condescencion occurred. Is this the true face of Debian? In the same month 2002 posts were made to debian-devel. 1 was by a woman. This month was notable for the Jack Howarth is a fucking idiot thread. Is this the true face of Debian? During the time period including this month Karolina Lindqvist made .debs for KDEs' CVS snapshots. This was done outside the official Debian framework altogether but they were very popular with Debian KDE users (including myself.) Is this the true face of Debian? I haven't kept any hard figures on it but in the four years I've been at the Debian booth at LinuxWorld in New York we've consistently had greater than 3.5% of the visitors be women (I would estimate about 20% but see caveat above.) None of them to my recollection have ever been snubbed or talked down too. Is this the true face of Debian? The fallacy in your use of Debian is that you assume there is a fixed idea of the boundaries of Debian and that everyone thinks it is at the same place as you. Lastly, since you mentioned it (and mentioned it, and mentioned it) In the month of November 2003 (I'd had a hard drive crash earlier that year that makes January data unavailable) I wrote or responded to 125 emails in relation to Debian matters. Of those 4 were from women (Curiously also 3.5% statistical fluke or trend?) Actually one woman but the thread included aw, you're a dear and I'm delighted it was resolved so quickly. Pretty good for a neanderthal eh? You are welcome to do additional research along these lines. I for one conclude there is no problem that concerns me. If you on the other hand still do, don't wait for Debian, have at it! You can solve it right now by signing Helens or some other womans GPG key, and sponsoring them through the new maintainer process. Or by setting an example as a paragon of politeness and civility. Sure I won't lift a finger to help but I won't lift one to hinder either so I shouldn't bother you because it's just as much an instance of Debian solving problems as anything else. -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/
Re: Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, 6 Mar 2004, Helen Faulkner wrote: Just because some people have difficulty understanding that there are barriers that make participation in things like the debian community more difficult (on average) for women than men, doesn't mean the barriers don't exist. Social and cultural barriers are more difficult to see than physical barriers ...mental ones even more so. Contrary to popular opinion, I was 100% sincere in both my comment about your mental state and that it wasn't meant as simple disparagement. It was the bit about not having suffered from any hostile behavior but still worrying that you might. You see while I may be a bit tone deaf to the plight of the white woman, I do know a thing or two about living in an environment that seems oblivious to you and your needs. I'm not just talking about the obvious ethnic/religious angle either though I don't want to get into details. Suffice it to say I've been and in some contexts continue to be the stranger/outsider. I recognize the sentiment in your original post and that's why I'm adamant that you should not succumb to it nor should others encourage you to. It's no way to live. comments on this thread alone. They are also more difficult to lower. It comes down to what the community as a whole wants to do. In the time I've been involved with Debian these paroxyms of hand-wringing have occurred several times before. Nothing ever came of them then, and I doubt anything will come of them now. That's for Debian as a whole. But parts of the community may be interested and that's all you really need. Unfortunately the idealistic tone of e.g. the social contract leads people to think Debian is going to be some kind of nude love-in. It's not. For the record all my more general statements apply to my understanding of the position of the *average* woman. There are of course people who don't fit that average. (Actually I'm one of them, but that doesn't mean I don't experience enough of the same feelings to understand the problems people have to deal with.) Most people don't fit the average. The average family has 2.4 children but have you ever seen a .4 child? If there is any overriding mentality that describes Debian members, it is one which is not shared by the vast majority of the population. Incremental change in outlook may occur (though I the cynic think not) but radical change will not. You personally might find working with Debian a pleasurable experience though. Forget about making yourself the ambassador of other people and ask yourself if building a free and excellent operating system is something you would like to do. If yes, you now know some people who might be able to help you do it. -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/
Re: Some Comments on Sexism in #debian
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 01:05:17PM -0800, Matthew Hall wrote: [snip drivel] Next, I would like to say some words to those who have been saying that Debian doesn't discriminate against women. As far as IRC goes, IT DOES. ADMIT IT ALREADY. Every day the channel is filled with trolls and [snip] Ok, as much as I want to say something really profound, in a vain hope it will quaff this thread, I know that won't happen, so I'll just add to it anyway... Matt, I hate to burst your bubble, but IRC is not real life, and in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter - we do not control what people say or do. We cannot, and we will not. Your mail fairly much appears to say nothing. Mike. -- Mike Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] ZL4TXK, IRLP Node 6184 Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim. -- Capt. James T. Kirk
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On 2004-03-06 00:33:40 + Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think she is guessing. Indeed, the men here have done exactly what she thought they would [...] Of course, this is not directly caused by the chromosomes present, so it is stupid to write the men here when criticising sexism. I seem to remember being called a range of things when questioning apparently sexist behaviour of a pro-women participant. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/
Re: Some Comments on Sexism in #debian
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 12:22:44PM +1300, Mike Beattie wrote: Matt, I hate to burst your bubble, but IRC is not real life, and in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter - we do not control what people say or do. We cannot, and we will not. That's absurd. People get kicked and banned for obvious trolling, crapflooding, and racist remarks. We can and we do control what people say or do, and we can do better. - David Nusinow
Re: Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On 2004-03-06 10:45:06 + George Sawyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Might it be true to generalize so far as to say: Don't talk with us, don't do anything to us, *just* because we're women. (?) Further generalisation: Don't do anything to us, just because of what we are. That has the benefit of being non-sexist and fitting most (all?) discrimination. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/
Re: Some Comments on Sexism in #debian
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 06:34:23PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote: That's absurd. People get kicked and banned for obvious trolling, crapflooding, and racist remarks. We can and we do control what people say or do, and we can do better. Have a brain please? I was not talking about the technicalities of whatever one does on IRC... Last I looked, Debian's world domination plan did not include censorship. Mike. -- Mike Beattie [EMAIL PROTECTED] ZL4TXK, IRLP Node 6184 yip yip yip yip yip yip yap yap yip *BANG* NO TERRIER
Re: Some Comments on Sexism in #debian
[Matthew Hall] there are 12 operators in #debian, which means we expect each one to be present at least 2 unique hours per day, assuming the task is equally divided. In my opinion that is probably not enough for a channel with 600+ people and such extreme traffic levels There are actually a lot less than 12 active ops on that channel, but on the other hand, coverage is somewhat better than you might expect due to the insane amount of attention Rob Weir manages to lend the channel. Linus's phrase about Alan Cox actually being a SMP cluster comes to mind. Which is not to say more active ops wouldn't be better. But most of the time, there *is* one around when you need one, although they sometimes need to be poked. I myself never hesitate to poke ops that I think are around, when I spot behavior that I think should be dealt with. Others should do the same - and some do. (Note: the behavior I'm talking about is actually almost never the sexist crap - there's a lot more non-sexist abuse and trolling in that channel. Complaining only about abuse toward women, and not abuse toward men, is itself a form of sexism - an implication that the women are less capable of taking care of themselves. I've actually found the opposite to be true. But my point is, it all needs to be dealt with.) Next, I would like to say some words to those who have been saying that Debian doesn't discriminate against women. As far as IRC goes, IT DOES. ADMIT IT ALREADY. I don't think anyone is disputing *that*. The question is whether, as a support resource advertised by the Project, the IRC channel on freenode is something for which Debian should take responsibility - in terms of setting and enforcing policies against abuse. And in fact, there's not even much argument about that either. I've talked to a couple of the ops, and they *are* discussing how to set and enforce a more intolerant policy. And as I said before, I do think more ops would be beneficial. Peter signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Some Comments on Sexism in #debian
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 12:50:10PM +1300, Mike Beattie wrote: Have a brain please? I was not talking about the technicalities of whatever one does on IRC... Last I looked, Debian's world domination plan did not include censorship. Way to resort to personal insults rather than respond to my actual point. Are you in favor of double standards? Because that's what the case appears to be for me. - David Nusinow
Re: Some Comments on Sexism in #debian
[Mike Beattie] Have a brain please? I was not talking about the technicalities of whatever one does on IRC... Last I looked, Debian's world domination plan did not include censorship. Censorship is entirely appropriate when it comes to maintaining some decorum in a forum such as IRC. Just as it is appropriate to forcibly remove people in a (physical) public forum who are being disruptive and refuse to stop. Peter signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 11:40:21PM +, MJ Ray wrote: On 2004-03-06 10:45:06 + George Sawyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Might it be true to generalize so far as to say: Don't talk with us, don't do anything to us, *just* because we're women. (?) Further generalisation: Don't do anything to us, just because of what we are. That has the benefit of being non-sexist and fitting most (all?) discrimination. It's entirely unworkable, however. At some point you have to draw the line - Debian is founded upon discrimination against non-free things and against broken code, and by extension, their creators and users. The NM process is founded upon discrimination against the stupid and the useless. The US is founded upon discrimination against the poor. Etcetera. Somewhere in here lies a subtle but significant difference, and it's rather tricky to pin down. However, it is necessary to do so, because both sides of the line are equally bad. Just to make things even more fun, even once you have a firm grasp of where it lies for the extreme cases, one will come along which is horribly ambiguous (the welfare state is one which is frequently debated with no real conclusions). -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Some Comments on Sexism in #debian
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 01:35:44PM +1300, Mike Beattie wrote: [Posting to debian lists is like hitting your head against a brick wall. It feels good when you stop - so I will after this one] Yes, ok, but I wouldn't call it censorship... more, a type of 'policing'. We're not going to 'kick/ban' them, then stop them talking on lists, then storm their house and take their computer now, are we? We're not going to contact local gangs and have their tongues removed? This simply boils down to me, and David over there having a difference of opinion about what we're talking about. It'd be a lot simpler if we both acknowledged each others point of view, and moved on, but no, we're all pig-headed twits who won't back down (myself not exempted). It seems like we agree on a lot more things than either of us realized. :-) - David Nusinow
Some Comments on Sexism in #debian: Meta-Reply
As I was writing this meta-reply, Mr. Samuelson, Mr. Beattie and Mr. Nusinow made some mention of the proper use of the term censorship. In this context in my posts, please read censorship to mean some sort of large-scale (i.e. channel- or server-wide) filtration of the IRC traffic generated by some target individual. The other more totalitarian senses of the word are not what I had in mind. [Mike Beattie] Matt, I hate to burst your bubble, but IRC is not real life, and in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter - we do not control what people say or do. We cannot, and we will not. Your mail fairly much appears to say nothing. Were it true my e-mail said nothing to you, I seriously doubt you would have made any effort to reply. I suspect what really is true, is that you don't have a better way to express your disagreement with it, and so therefore have resorted to discounting the meaning of the content of my post. I think you will find your opinion on the collective responsibility to maintain a hospitable channel environment to be in the minority. I truly think most channel users and operators want to create a healthy, useful channel that helps users with their problems. [David Nusinow] That's absurd. People get kicked and banned for obvious trolling, crapflooding, and racist remarks. We can and we do control what people say or do, and we can do better. Agreed. [Mike Beattie] Have a brain please? I was not talking about the technicalities of whatever one does on IRC... Last I looked, Debian's world domination plan did not include censorship. I agree, when taking censorship to have the totalitarian meaning. Totalitarian control of self-expression is a Bad Thing (TM). Where censorship becomes a problem is when it is imposed from outside by a rogue governmental authority on specious or insufficient grounds. If we self-regulate our channel to enhance its usability, it is within our rights, and arguably, the only sensible thing to do. Why should trolls, flamers, and script kiddies be able to take free reign on #debian? [Peter Samuelson] SNIP ...Others should do the same - and some do. /SNIP Agreed. SNIP Note: the behavior I'm talking about is actually almost never the sexist crap - there's a lot more non-sexist abuse and trolling in that channel. Complaining only about abuse toward women, and not abuse toward men, is itself a form of sexism - an implication that the women are less capable of taking care of themselves. I've actually found the opposite to be true. But my point is, it all needs to be dealt with. /SNIP I am afraid I have to throw a wobbly over the logic of this passage. The title of my message that started this thread was, Some Comments on Sexism in #debian. I specifically said I was reserving my comments to sexism and to our official channel, #debian on freenode. To say that my deliberate attempt to limit the scope of my remarks to a digestible level implies I have some ulterior belief about other subjects that I have specifically eliminated from consideration in my commentary is not fair. My posts should not be read in a manner which would imply I think women are incapable of taking care of their own problems. I was just expressing MY opinion on a subcomponent of a larger contextual issue that was interesting to ME. I really do not think I can make that any more cut-and-dried. [Peter Samuelson] Censorship is entirely appropriate when it comes to maintaining some decorum in a forum such as IRC. Just as it is appropriate to forcibly remove people in a (physical) public forum who are being disruptive and refuse to stop. Agreed, when used the way I have been using it, as could be expected, since I brought up the idea in my original post.
