Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006
On 4 Apr 2006, Benj. Mako Hill said: quote who=Manoj Srivastava date=Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 03:23:35AM -0500 The way I see it, Debian produces an modular OS. the modularity of the product is, by and large[0], packages. .. snip .. [0]. There are people who contribute to Debian other than as package maintainers, but they do have the same rights of uploading as anyone else. As other have pointed out, many package maintainers can't vote either. In my nomenclature, people who upload the packages are the maintainers -- even if the majority of the work has been done by others, like the uipstream author. As far as Debian is concerned, the person sho signed off on the upload is the one attesting to the quality of the package. Also, they are the only ones we can actually trust we can verify the identity of (there is a reason for the web of trust), I think that the fact that the upload keyring is the same as the voting keyring is bad. Contributors are told they can't vote until they learn C compiler flags. People who don't upload anymore keep their privileges in order to vote. I beg to differ here. I think that rights and priviledges accorded to full membership are done correctly, the steep cirve for becoming a maintainer keeps the riff-raff and troublemakers out (the investment of time and effort does not meet the retrn-on-investment thresholds for most crackers, for instance). Branden had an interesting idea of fixing the second big by allowing people to simply opt-out of upload privileges through db.debian.org. Debian has a *very* poor recognizing non-packaging contributions to the community with enfranchisement of any sort. That is a bug I would be willing to accept as such. manoj -- It is Texas law that when two trains meet each other at a railroad crossing, each shall come to a full stop, and neither shall proceed until the other has gone. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006
Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] They don't need to be in the web of trust to affect those issues. They can just step in and do something. This is often overlooked as a form of democracy. It's a bit brutal, but can be useful. [...] and b) there is no clear-cut and objective criteria currently to identify those people who do make regular contributions without being a developer. Unless something has changed since I last looked, the NM process was hardly clear-cut or objective either. Put differently, here are a number of questions you should answer for this to have merit: * What should a non-DD contributor be doing before we consider him/her eligible to vote? Making a worthwhile contribution to the project. Interestingly, self-censorship by non-members allows projects such as Indymedia to function with much weaker membership qualification than debian. * How should we link their key to their identity, so that we *know* a given key belongs to some non-DD contributor? For DDs, we know because we've seen their uploads. For contributors, we don't see their uploads, so we can only know through key signing, which is a weaker criterion (unless they sign their contributions with their GPG key). We should see submissions by contributors and those could be signed. * Should non-DD contributors be allowed to vote on just about anything? If not, what types of votes should they be allowed to vote on, and what types of votes should they not be allowed to vote on? Make this a clear rule, so that you can apply it to any possible and impossible thing we might have an idea about voting on. - Appoint or recall the Project Leader. - Override any decision by the Project Leader or a Delegate. - Override any decision by the Technical Committee. - Issue, supersede and withdraw nontechnical policy documents and statements. I exclude the power to amend the constitution, which they've agreed to even less than developers. All of the others affect the work done by contributors in some way, so I think there's an argument for giving them a voice. Maybe one or more of the above should be subdivided, but I'm not sure. * Should non-DD contributors be allowed to propose General Resolutions? Only ones that they can vote on. * Should non-DD contributors be allowed to nominate themselves as DPL? No, it should require a number of seconds. Kevin Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] But if there was a vote on say 'should debian create a new irc channel for mutt users' or 'what applications should be translated first for the urdu desktop?' or 'what is the number one thing that debian users want for etch?' Then would a user need to be in the Debian web of trust to affect those issues? What would be required, short of joining the web of trust? All of the above seem like JFDI (Just F Do It) issues, not requiring a vote. Frans Pop [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] If you do get more involved, you may want=20 to read the Debian Constitution and Social Contract too. That would have=20 given you the correct information regarding the democratic processes=20 within Debian. Except for the situations where they are ignored. I thought some DDs claimed never to have agreed to those processes because they predate the NM process: am I mistaken? Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] Far from it being a known bug, I don't think it is a bug at all. There has to be some criteria for allowing people decision making powers in the project (conducting the vote on slashdot would be unacceptable to most people). There is a space between only uploaders may vote and everyone may vote. Also, I believe non-uploading contributors also have some responsiblity for the operating system debian distributes, so they should have some decision-making role. Arguably, they already do, but what weight should that role carry? [...] Becoming a DD also entails a level of commitment tot he project that a casual contributor has not made. Is anyone suggesting casual contributors get the vote? There are some long-term contributors who do not have the vote and seem unlikely to get through the current NM process: it's hard enough for package maintainers with years in the free software scene who get left in DAMnation for many months while they are quizzed repeatedly over whether they know the difference between free beer and free speech. It may be that there needs to be clearer information for l10n teams about who can become DDs and how, but I thought there was resistance to non-uploading DDs. Did I misunderstand? Best wishes, -- MJR/slef Laux nur mia opinio: vidu http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Bv sekvu http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006
Jorgen Schaefer wrote: Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It seems to me that we are already in a situation where only the people who are really interested in, or informed about, a particular question are voting on it. And that's bad because ...? Oh, I wasn't suggesting it was bad. I think it's good. I think we'd see the same behaviour if non-DD contributors were allowed to vote. They would vote on the things they know something about and ignore the things they don't know about. The overal effect would be to increase the number of informed people voting and to get the viewpoints of people who are contributing to Debian in non-maintainer ways, which I think would be entirely positive. Helen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006
Scripsit Benj. Mako Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think that the fact that the upload keyring is the same as the voting keyring is bad. Contributors are told they can't vote until they learn C compiler flags. Who tells contributors that nonsense? -- Henning Makholm However, the fact that the utterance by Epimenides of that false sentence could imply the existence of some Cretan who is not a liar is rather unsettling. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006
Scripsit Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 3 Apr 2006, Wouter Verhelst outgrape: I don't have any problems per se with non-DD contributors being allowed to vote on matters of purely technical substance. I have a problem with _anyone_ voting on a matter of purely technical substance. According to the Constitution, members of the TC do. -- Henning Makholm Hele toget raslede imens Sjælland fór forbi.
Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006
Scripsit Benj. Mako Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's argueably the most important right that is reserved for developers but it does not necessary stand to reason that it should be reserved only for those who engage in development. I'd like to see those who have made long-term, sustained, and significant contributions to Debian enfranchised. How is making long-term, sustained, and significant contributions to Debian _not_ engaging in development? -- Henning Makholm The burning swoosh shall be our emblem, and we shall laugh in the face of trademark lawyers. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006
In other words, those who are responsible, decide. I agree. So let's divest of their voting privileges those DDs who don't contribute enough. We have several hundred of those. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006
On 4 Apr 2006, Benj. Mako Hill spake thusly: quote who=Wouter Verhelst date=Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 08:58:57AM +0200 The problem is more one of 'how do we identify those people that aren't a Developer, but that do contribute regularly'. There are a number of ways of doing this although, like NM, it's ultimately a human process that is carried out in the context of guidelines. Ubuntu has separate categories for member and maintainer (only the latter can upload although they are equal in all other respects) and their process involves testimonial, demonstrated work over a long period of time, and review by an elected board. Something similar could work in Debian. Ubuntu also gives limited rights to its so called members. Can members throw out the benevolent dictator for life? fire all the members on the committees? overrule the peoject leader? Or any delegate? Propose and with enough numbers, change the very articles of incorporation or other foundation documents? I'd be happy to follow the ubuntu model -- gice every /. reader full rights, but whittle down their powers so all they can really do is say they are members, and vote on some inconsequential things. This is not what franchise in Debian entitles you to. Since Debian votes are conducted through GPG-signed mails and regular contributors aren't part of the Debian web of trust, this is more than a convenience issue. Note that Debian Developers without an active key in the keyring can't vote, either. The system could still require a key signed by another Debian developer. The identity part of NM is not the most difficult part for many and is easily overcome even by non-developers. Err, all that means is that we have a weak trust in the identity of the people, but does nothing to address commitment, responsibility, and trust in that person, or any idea if they adhere to the foundation principles of the project. Ultimately, the powers weilded by voting members affect me. I am willing to listen to directions from my peers, I am less likely to be inclined to take direction from anyone who has submitted a random patch to the BTS. I am also unlikely to want to take direction from anyone who has not demonstrated a modicum of commitment to the project. There is Now, if there are people like that who are not DD's, the question we must ask, is wjy are they not DD's? If they are putting in the work, and have the same commitment as a DD does, even if they do not package stuff, why is the project not treating them as first class members? The solution is not to dilute the franchise, the solution is rather to induct all trustworthy significant contributors commited to the project as full members. It has never been about work -- else upstream authors doing all the heavy lifting should be the ones voting. It is about commitment, responsibility, and trust. manoj -- There's no future in time travel. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006
On 4 Apr 2006, Henning Makholm verbalised: Scripsit Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 3 Apr 2006, Wouter Verhelst outgrape: I don't have any problems per se with non-DD contributors being allowed to vote on matters of purely technical substance. I have a problem with _anyone_ voting on a matter of purely technical substance. According to the Constitution, members of the TC do. I'll try dotting the i's and crossing the t's with this analogy: You and I can't vote to decide what is the law, what falls afoul of the law, and what does not. The supreme court justices do vote. See the difference? manoj -- Many a bum show has been saved by the flag. George M. Cohan Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006
On 4 Apr 2006, Benj. Mako Hill stated: quote who=Steve Langasek date=Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 12:15:15AM -0700 Most developers seem to agree that there are bugs in our process for integrating new members into the project, but that's not the same as saying that non-DDs should be allowed to vote Clearly not. voting rights are one of the few privileges that are reserved only for developers, and arguably the most important. It's argueably the most important right that is reserved for developers but it does not necessary stand to reason that it should be reserved only for those who engage in development. You know, in my new country (I've just joined the enfranchised ranks here). Even my new country, far more democratic than Debian ewver shall be, does not give franchise based on work people do. If it did, trust fund babies would have no vote, and the illegal migrant workers would. When I got my citizenship, it took an pledge of allegiance before things were stamped, and I had to go through an NM PP section with a immigration official to see if I knew the philosophy and practical details of how the government worked. I also had a back ground and identity check done, to enter the web of trust. Seems like people on -project as asking L1 visa holders [0] to get a right to vote, no questions asked I'd like to see those who have made long-term, sustained, and significant contributions to Debian enfranchised. That could mean broadening the category of developer through changes to NM or it could also mean another enfranchised category of contributor. That's what I read as the argument at the core of this thread -- but perhaps I was just projecting. I think we need to make them full, undifferentiated, members of the project. Which means going through a process where we know they adhere to our foundation documents, and spend time with a trusted developer (AM) so we have a better idea of who they are, and can have a modicum of trust in that they do not sabotage the project. Trust. Commitment. Responsibility. manoj [0] temporary foreign workers working for a local company in the country to continue to do the job they did for the same company in their home country) -- wolf, n.: A man who knows all the ankles. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006
On 4 Apr 2006, Clint Adams stated: In other words, those who are responsible, decide. I agree. So let's divest of their voting privileges those DDs who don't contribute enough. We have several hundred of those. Please help out the MIA process. It would really be appreciated. manoj -- QOTD: It was so cold last winter that I saw a lawyer with his hands in his own pockets. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Setting up i18n.debian.org?
On Monday 03 April 2006 01:25, Christian Surchi wrote: Il giorno dom, 02/04/2006 alle 18.39 -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas ha scritto: Well, personally I had debian-specific projects like d-i and debconf translations in mind. And how could be that idea connected to upstream translation work? That was my question, basically. I guess the answer is 'not, and that's not a bad thing either'. For d-i and package descriptions etc. there are not upstream developers separate from Debian. I presume work on program translations should take place wherever upstream does it - no need for Debian to set up an infrastructure. If upstream infrastructure for i18n is lacking, this should be solved upstream, not in Debian. -- vbi -- featured link: http://fortytwo.ch/gpg/subkeys pgpdcYUOqEyr4.pgp Description: PGP signature
Information Concerning Telugu Font
Greetings! I am searching for a free Telugu font that I can install on my computer. I do not know enough about the software to ask specific questions. I would like to be able to do word processing and possibly publication using Telugu font. Do you have any suggestions on how I should proceed to find, download and use Telugu font for word processing and possibly publication? Thanks ever so much! James Hardy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006
On Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 02:36:58PM +0200, Henning Makholm wrote: Scripsit Benj. Mako Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's argueably the most important right that is reserved for developers but it does not necessary stand to reason that it should be reserved only for those who engage in development. I'd like to see those who have made long-term, sustained, and significant contributions to Debian enfranchised. How is making long-term, sustained, and significant contributions to Debian _not_ engaging in development? Hi Henning, just to clarify, does 'engaging in development' equate to 'doing software related stuff' or could it include 'helping to improve the Debian organization in other ways'? Cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Information Concerning Telugu Font
On Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 11:18:59AM -0500, James Hardy wrote: Greetings! I am searching for a free Telugu font that I can install on my computer. I do not know enough about the software to ask specific questions. I would like to be able to do word processing and possibly publication using Telugu font. Do you have any suggestions on how I should proceed to find, download and use Telugu font for word processing and possibly publication? Thanks ever so much! James Hardy Hi James, apt-cache show ttf-indic-fonts Package: ttf-indic-fonts Priority: optional Section: x11 Installed-Size: 32 Maintainer: Debian-IN Team [EMAIL PROTECTED] Architecture: all Version: 1:0.4.7 Depends: ttf-bengali-fonts, ttf-devanagari-fonts, ttf-gujarati-fonts, ttf-kannada-fonts, ttf-malayalam-fonts, ttf-oriya-fonts, ttf-punjabi-fonts, ttf-tamil-fonts, ttf-telugu-fonts Filename: pool/main/t/ttf-indic-fonts/ttf-indic-fonts_0.4.7_all.deb Size: 4470 MD5sum: f45a091047b59fa678a98cbbffce876d Description: Metapackage for free Indian language fonts This package merely depends on the various Indian language font packages available in Debian. Use this if you want fonts for every official Indian language. Tag: culture::bengali, culture::hindi, culture::punjabi, culture::tamil, made-of::data:font, role::aux:metapackage -- cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal | debian.home.pipeline.com | | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: pgp.mit.edu | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Setting up i18n.debian.org?
* Adrian von Bidder [EMAIL PROTECTED] [060404 19:41]: I guess the answer is 'not, and that's not a bad thing either'. For d-i and package descriptions etc. there are not upstream developers separate from Debian. I presume work on program translations should take place wherever upstream does it - no need for Debian to set up an infrastructure. If upstream infrastructure for i18n is lacking, this should be solved upstream, not in Debian. Many upstreams do not have the resources or the need for i18n. I think with exception of some very large upstreams like gnome, KDE or mozilla, almost no upstream has the resources for translations. Also many upstreams will just not care by themself but happily accept patches from the Debian maintainer for i18n as they do with any other patches or bugreports. (And some may even interface those resources themselves, as many are subscribing the bts for the packages they are upstream for). I think the most cruical point for that is the possibility to have multipe versions of a file open for translations (best marked with different priority), so that one as Debian Maintainer of a package can put documents there when upstream releases a release candidate or (if he has such a thing - a string freeze) and submit those already collected till then back to upstream before the release, and those that come late before uploading a package. (Docs how all this stuff works, and where to put those files, makes it much easier, too) Hochachtungsvoll, Bernhard R. Link -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006
Scripsit Kevin Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 02:36:58PM +0200, Henning Makholm wrote: Scripsit Benj. Mako Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's argueably the most important right that is reserved for developers but it does not necessary stand to reason that it should be reserved only for those who engage in development. I'd like to see those who have made long-term, sustained, and significant contributions to Debian enfranchised. How is making long-term, sustained, and significant contributions to Debian _not_ engaging in development? just to clarify, does 'engaging in development' equate to 'doing software related stuff' or could it include 'helping to improve the Debian organization in other ways'? As far as I'm aware, everything in Debian is software-related stuff in that it all exists to enable and support the creation of a free operating system. -- Henning MakholmNu kommer han. Kan du ikke høre knallerten?
Re: Third call for votes for the debian project leader election 2006
Please help out the MIA process. It would really be appreciated. The MIA process does not address the type of people that are the object of my complaints. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
