Re: confusion about non-free (Re: Bits from the Debian Eee PC team, summer 2008)
Russ Allbery wrote: Giacomo Catenazzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Russ Allbery wrote: I recommend not attributing such judgements to the configuration files of software packages. Sorry??? It is more that a configuration file, and BTW the same notation it is also used by apt. Archive and its format are an area of ftp-master. I disagree. The Release file in the archive is a configuration file that is part of the software interface to the archive. The terminology that it uses refers to capabilities within the archive maintenance software and within the software that downloads files from a Debian archive. It does not have anything to do with legal, administrative, or focus decisions taken by the Debian project. Mixing the terminology used for a software package with the terminology used for the founding organizational documents of the project is a mistake, in my opinion. The Debian archive software is general software that could be used for any project, even with an entirely different use of the component feature that has nothing to do with licensing. We happen to use it for licensing and to separate things that are part of the distribution from things that are not, but this is not in any way inherent to the component concept within the archive software. ok, you are right, and BTW the Release file of Ubuntu seems to interpret the parts in a different manner. OTOH: - people tend to use more the dak terminology (also because it is exported on apt pinning) To be correct, it should also be noted that some terms are not 1 to 1 with policy: i.e. dak uses updates/main (i.e. in security archive) as component. Policy area has only the main part (which is called segment when used with segment/section). - policy is also not consistent on terminology (but finally it was noticed and you corrected: thanks Russ!) - using two notations, for two different field, is confusing So I think we should setup a BOFH in DebConf, with policy, dak, ftp-masters, apt, etc. people, to check the terminology (and identify the subtle differences, e.g. component vs. area), and to write a Debian glossary, which possibly reduce confusion (which started this thread). There are interested people for such BOFH? The bug is only relevant to policy, but as stated by policy team, debian/copyright, interpretation of DFSG, archive sections (devel, libs, mail), etc. are areas outside policy, but they are in ftp-master hands. So IMHO what Debian means (linked to DFSG) and what Lenny means (archive) is outside debian-policy (and outside of the cited bug). This is unfortunate. I don't agree that this is the case to the extent that you describe, or that it follows from that bug or from other Policy discussions, although I agree that thet Constitution and Social Contract have more to say about this than Policy does. I was proposing an explanation of the origin of confusing and inconsistent terms. Probably there are better explaination. [but if I don't write a plausible, probably wrong, explanation, nobody will write the right explanation ;-) ] ciao cate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: confusion about non-free (Re: Bits from the Debian Eee PC team, summer 2008)
On Mon, Aug 04, 2008 at 11:00:40PM +0100, Adeodato Simó wrote: you suck. The pattern I see is that some people complain about my message being harsh by sending replies that are outright insulting. I think the reason you (and the other minority of bashers in this thread) are annoyed is because the content of my message, not because its form. I have already apologised to Ben for the form, but I don't owe an apologise for the content, and I won't give it to you. -- Robert Millan The DRM opt-in fallacy: Your data belongs to us. We will decide when (and how) you may access your data; but nobody's threatening your freedom: we still allow you to remove your data and not access it at all. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: confusion about non-free (Re: Bits from the Debian Eee PC team, summer 2008)
* Robert Millan [Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:20:03 +0200]: I think the reason you (and the other minority of bashers in this thread) are annoyed is because the content of my message, not because its form. You are certainly entitled to believe that if it makes your day any brighter. -- Adeodato Simó -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: confusion about non-free (Re: Bits from the Debian Eee PC team, summer 2008)
On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 14:20:03 +0200 Robert Millan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The pattern I see is that some people complain about my message being harsh by sending replies that are outright insulting. I think the reason you (and the other minority of bashers in this thread) are annoyed is because the content of my message, not because its form. I have already apologised to Ben for the form, but I don't owe an apologise for the content, and I won't give it to you. I would not be so quick to judge that this is why they were annoyed. And it's not really clear from your followups that you did apologize. But you clarified your *intentions* and you expressed appreciation for my work, and that I will take as an apology of sorts. Apology accepted. Ben -- ,-. nSLUGhttp://www.nslug.ns.ca [EMAIL PROTECTED] \`' Debian http://www.debian.org[EMAIL PROTECTED] ` [ gpg 395C F3A4 35D3 D247 1387 2D9E 5A94 F3CA 0B27 13C8 ] [ pgp 7F DA 09 4B BA 2C 0D E0 1B B1 31 ED C6 A9 39 4F ] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dealing gently with our peers (was: confusion about non-free)
On Mon, Aug 04, 2008 at 04:56:00PM -0300, Ben Armstrong wrote: On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 21:17:20 +0200 Robert Millan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just to make it clear, please don't take it as if I were recriminating something to you. My understanding is that this problem is about general perception and I don't think it's your fault in any way. I understand that it wasn't personal. But neither did you consider the personal factors in any way. I did. It's obvious I didn't consider them well enough, but I assure you when I added 'Friendly' there (which is not part of my usual signature) I was considering the personal factors. My message goes straight to the point and sounds harsh. I realized this, but I didn't think it would hurt your feelings. It's my fault if it did, so in general I'll try to be more careful in the future. No, it was not the kindest way you could. A private email to me would have sufficed to correct the problem in my statement. As you can see, I was prompt to issue a correction once I saw my error. I thank you for that, but my concern was _not_ specificaly about your statement. Rather, I'm worried about this perception being the norm in our community today. But you have to see both sides of things. When I saw that mail, the first thing I think is the press will pick it and announce to everyone that Lenny supports this hardware, with the implicit assumption that we have dropped our ideals and joined the non-free bandwagon (actually, this is still likely despite my reaction). So it was far more important to drag this out before the project as soon as possible than it was to consider your peer's feelings and privately contact him first to give him a chance to correct himself? TBH, I didn't think about this option. Now I see that it is what I should have done. Do you accept my apologise? The ideals you were defending here justified your means? Maybe you won't believe this, but whereas I believe my ideals justify being exposed _myself_ to public bashing, I don't think they justify exposing bystanders. -- Robert Millan The DRM opt-in fallacy: Your data belongs to us. We will decide when (and how) you may access your data; but nobody's threatening your freedom: we still allow you to remove your data and not access it at all. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: confusion about non-free (Re: Bits from the Debian Eee PC team, summer 2008)
On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 01:58:50PM +0100, Adeodato Simó wrote: * Robert Millan [Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:20:03 +0200]: I think the reason you (and the other minority of bashers in this thread) are annoyed is because the content of my message, not because its form. You are certainly entitled to believe that if it makes your day any brighter. I'd rather believe something else if I could. Do you have a better explanation for: some people complain about my message being harsh by sending replies that are outright insulting. -- Robert Millan The DRM opt-in fallacy: Your data belongs to us. We will decide when (and how) you may access your data; but nobody's threatening your freedom: we still allow you to remove your data and not access it at all. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dealing gently with our peers (was: confusion about non-free)
On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:08:56 +0200 Robert Millan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I did. It's obvious I didn't consider them well enough, but I assure you when I added 'Friendly' there (which is not part of my usual signature) I was considering the personal factors. This was a thin cloak for words which said otherwise. To paraphrase: You are confused You apparently do not know the social contract I do not wish to drag out the original injury. I am over it. You made an earlier attempt at apology (couched in the words of justification) which I accepted, understanding that it was not your intent to hurt me. The only reason for me to continue posting in this thread is to see if I can help make the way we, as a project, relate to each other more humane. My message goes straight to the point and sounds harsh. I realized this, but I didn't think it would hurt your feelings. It's my fault if it did, so in general I'll try to be more careful in the future. Thanks. I thank you for that, but my concern was _not_ specificaly about your statement. Rather, I'm worried about this perception being the norm in our community today. I understand. It looks like there is a good discussion happening now about this valid concern. TBH, I didn't think about this option. Now I see that it is what I should have done. Do you accept my apologise? I am comforted to hear you say this. Moreso than before. To re-iterate: yes, I accept. The ideals you were defending here justified your means? Maybe you won't believe this, but whereas I believe my ideals justify being exposed _myself_ to public bashing, I don't think they justify exposing bystanders. I'll accept that at face value. Ben -- ,-. nSLUGhttp://www.nslug.ns.ca [EMAIL PROTECTED] \`' Debian http://www.debian.org[EMAIL PROTECTED] ` [ gpg 395C F3A4 35D3 D247 1387 2D9E 5A94 F3CA 0B27 13C8 ] [ pgp 7F DA 09 4B BA 2C 0D E0 1B B1 31 ED C6 A9 39 4F ] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: confusion about non-free (Re: Bits from the Debian Eee PC team, summer 2008)
* Robert Millan [Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:13:17 +0200]: I'd rather believe something else if I could. Do you have a better explanation for: some people complain about my message being harsh by sending replies that are outright insulting. Yes, that your behavior was outraging (at least it was to me). (On the other hand, Ben's behavior on the thread has been exemplary, which I also feel needs saying.) -- Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es Debian Developer adeodato at debian.org - Are you sure we're good? - Always. -- Rory and Lorelai -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: confusion about non-free (Re: Bits from the Debian Eee PC team, summer 2008)
On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 09:27:39PM +0100, Adeodato Simó wrote: * Robert Millan [Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:13:17 +0200]: I'd rather believe something else if I could. Do you have a better explanation for: some people complain about my message being harsh by sending replies that are outright insulting. Yes, that your behavior was outraging (at least it was to me). (On the other hand, Ben's behavior on the thread has been exemplary, which I also feel needs saying.) I'm sure my behaviour was outraging to you. I agree Ben's was exemplary. Then again, I don't see any judgement on _your_ behaviour in this mail. I just got scrutinized for using an (admittedly inappropiate) harsh tone, but apparently you don't think your own tone (which was outright insulting) deserves any kind of judgement. As far as I'm concerned, we can leave it here. You didn't answer my question, though. -- Robert Millan The DRM opt-in fallacy: Your data belongs to us. We will decide when (and how) you may access your data; but nobody's threatening your freedom: we still allow you to remove your data and not access it at all. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: confusion about non-free (Re: Bits from the Debian Eee PC team, summer 2008)
* Robert Millan [Tue, 05 Aug 2008 23:17:10 +0200]: Then again, I don't see any judgement on _your_ behaviour in this mail. I just got scrutinized for using an (admittedly inappropiate) harsh tone, but apparently you don't think your own tone (which was outright insulting) deserves any kind of judgement. My tone is a bug: my internal operating systeam oopses horribly when users reach their quota; which fortunately seldom happens, thus not rendering the package completely unusable. On the other hand, while I should definitely be looking at geting my oopses fixed (and I will be!), maybe you should think for a minute if all those people trolling you (and not only in this thread) are actually trolling you, or there is something *else* to it. End of thread for me, with apologies to -project. -- Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es Debian Developer adeodato at debian.org Listening to: Polar - Don't want to be alone tonight -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
