Re: Results of the Lenny release GR
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 10:34:41PM +0100, Robert Millan wrote: He's doing more than interpret the results. He claims they are ambigous, and that his interpretation is based on his speculation on what he thinks the developers want. No, instead of whining and acusing people you should try to read emails without prejudice and accept that the result is what it is. Bdale's interpretation was based on the number of votes each option received. He actually did compare the results of each option with the results of the other options to get his interpretation. This is far from what one would expect the Secretary to do. If results are really ambigous, or flawed in any way, what he should do is cancel the vote. Well, we all know what/who helped making the vote ambigious. Guess what there are some people who don't accept the outcome of a vote even if it is not ambigious. Just to take away some possible misunderstanding, this holds for probably every vote ever held across the world. Michael -- Michael Meskes Michael at Fam-Meskes dot De, Michael at Meskes dot (De|Com|Net|Org) Michael at BorussiaFan dot De, Meskes at (Debian|Postgresql) dot Org ICQ: 179140304, AIM/Yahoo: michaelmeskes, Jabber: mes...@jabber.org Go VfL Borussia! Go SF 49ers! Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Results of the Lenny release GR
On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 10:37:28PM +0100, Robert Millan wrote: On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 09:26:20PM +, Robert Millan wrote: We're having a serious discussion, and you guys are adding noise. If you want to make jokes, please at least start a separate thread. ... That goes for you, too. I wonder how many consider this a serious discussion. Yes, Robert, you do, but who else? This is not to blame someone but a real question. If there really is a serious discussion we (as in: the people that d not think it is) should probably leave it alone. Michael -- Michael Meskes Michael at Fam-Meskes dot De, Michael at Meskes dot (De|Com|Net|Org) Michael at BorussiaFan dot De, Meskes at (Debian|Postgresql) dot Org ICQ: 179140304, AIM/Yahoo: michaelmeskes, Jabber: mes...@jabber.org Go VfL Borussia! Go SF 49ers! Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I give up (for the time being)
Robert Millan wrote: So, I'll stop now. Do not think this means the problem just got solved. I only do it because I expect we can have a healthy discussion about it after Lenny is released. Thanks. Regards, Joey -- Life is a lot easier when you have someone to share it with. -- Sean Perry Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I give up (for the time being)
Thanks for your courage and honesty. -- Loïc Minier -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Updated Debian Maintainers Keyring
With the upload of debian-maintainers version 1.52, the following changes to the keyring have been made: i...@jhr-online.de Full name: Jan Hauke Rahm Added key: D26FB242AAA167AC310E69F718EA7A5DE0FC710D michael.ha...@ovgu.de Full name: Michael Hanke Added key: 13A481525A76CE3A9EDB8B6DF77F8DB23144BE0F A summary of all the changes in this upload follows. Debian distribution maintenance software, on behalf of, Anibal Monsalve Salazar ani...@debian.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Format: 1.8 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:49:08 +1100 Source: debian-maintainers Binary: debian-maintainers Architecture: source all Version: 1.52 Distribution: unstable Urgency: medium Maintainer: Debian Maintainer Keyring Team d-m-t...@lists.alioth.debian.org Changed-By: Anibal Monsalve Salazar ani...@debian.org Description: debian-maintainers - GPG keys of Debian maintainers Closes: 510982 511244 511294 Changes: debian-maintainers (1.52) unstable; urgency=medium . * admins keyring. Closes: #510982 - Remove Marc Brockschmidt - Add Wouter Verhelst - Add Bernd Zeimetz * Remove Arthur Loiret, Jelmer Vernooij and Martin Meredith, all of whom are now debian developers. * Add Debian maintainer Michael Hanke. Closes: #511244 * Add Debian maintainer Jan Hauke Rahm. Closes: #511294 Checksums-Sha1: 15180a5528e24feb3b1fab6ca82ea0e2e1dafbc6 1356 debian-maintainers_1.52.dsc 7c7564c130283c01991fe561408fa699cb80c824 1015772 debian-maintainers_1.52.tar.gz 3d08094dfc4e764e62ac9071f9e4909bd6c7c488 416988 debian-maintainers_1.52_all.deb aa394bb9565560c7c1785fd059e4cc590026b017 501702 debian-maintainers_1.52_all.gpg Checksums-Sha256: bd12cac90e13825b6afe5b3c6fdf0c60e6fee76027bec71fa77703ec738a66b9 1356 debian-maintainers_1.52.dsc 5563bea85eebf441ff590e2c95195d46dafd822fac7b2e07b44a4edaaf17e305 1015772 debian-maintainers_1.52.tar.gz bf434f86a5a6050be4bd04686fe563854182af9cd30be3d1d74d1d6621e127d6 416988 debian-maintainers_1.52_all.deb f910e635cd6bb50eb1c9218f4b06c0f9bf72b5a48cbd301bb7528b1a1416bf43 501702 debian-maintainers_1.52_all.gpg Files: 4681662799faa8288687f4176cc5bcc5 1356 misc extra debian-maintainers_1.52.dsc 05526d86a145b0ee6ad9b4b22a861f25 1015772 misc extra debian-maintainers_1.52.tar.gz df3fd3a99157ee55c7d71015c80d57cd 416988 misc extra debian-maintainers_1.52_all.deb 34f8e29f427a0d04e5c710aa3eeff53c 501702 raw-keyring - debian-maintainers_1.52_all.gpg -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAklsec8ACgkQgY5NIXPNpFXpdACffOlXBtnJJfm33C1evp3sVa7V n6wAn0CSZahU8YXBt6ihx/TTGSdP7i3r =SZ61 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Results of the Lenny release GR
On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 11:35:22AM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote: How about you going elsewhere until Lenny is released, then coming back as soon as that happens and start working on what is left to fix then? (Not right before a release, right after a release for a change.) A VERY BIG +1 -- Francesco P. Lovergine -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Scheduling project-wide post-lenny discussions?
Hm. It seems we have a number of projet-wide discussions that we've more or less agreed to postpone until lenny is out. I have a moderate fear that once that happens, they are going to explode (the discussions) all over the lists. I suggested the creation of the DiscussionsAfterLenny wiki page a while ago, but that page is at the moment a bit of a mess. In particular, it's a dump of items without mentioning who's interested in having the discussion, and volunteering to starting and driving it. So, I'm interested in knowing if people would be fine with making a list of these big issues we have to discuss, and trying to give them slots, as in putting them in some order that makes sense. Also, IMHO, having one or two (per-topic) people responsible for starting them, and trying to/ensuring they get somewhere, by appropriately fostering and summarizing the progress of the discussion, would be very good too. Off the top of my head, these are some candidates for scheduling: * membership in Debian (see below about this one). * changes to the Constitution (I've read at least Steve Langasek and Matthew Johnson express interest in this). * changes to the Social Contract (I'm not sure if this one is going to happen?). * code of conduct (Miriam Ruiz and Ben Armstrong would know about this). * release management, freezes, RC bugs and the whole lot (I'd appreciate if nobody beats the release team to this one). * more...? (if this scheduling goes forward, now would be a good time to speak). Thoughts? --- Regarding the Membership in Debian discussion, this has always been my idea of what could work well: * designing a person or very small group of people as the drivers of the discussion; these people would have their opinion, of course, but not an agenda, and should be trusted by the project, and particularly by the people who feel vocal about this discussion. .oO(good luck...) * these drivers receive, in private, well-written platforms of solutions that (many) interested people would give to the problem; they read and dissect them, and work with the senders to present to -project a fair summary of them, highlighting the points where there's consensus, and the points where there is not. * discussion happens in -project, and the drivers regularly distil it into summaries, trying to come up with the axis of a small and coherent handful of options in a possible future vote, and receiving feedback on these. * once the axis of each option are set, the main proponents of that option work out a text. (I realize this is not very polished, but I thought I'd try, because I'm tired of inefficient and endless discussions. I also have a couple names in mind of possible good drivers for this matter, but I haven't talked to them, and anyway it's leader@ who should, I believe. Bcc'ed.) -- Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es Debian Developer adeodato at debian.org Will you just stand still? -- Luke Danes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I give up (for the time being)
Robert Millan r...@aybabtu.com writes: So, I'll stop now. Do not think this means the problem just got solved. I only do it because I expect we can have a healthy discussion about it after Lenny is released. Best wishes to everyone, Thank you. Sincerely. I think this will mean we can have a better conversation later and get at the heart of the problem and hopefully make a more lasting decision that we don't have to keep revisiting. Dropping something like this when you believe strongly in it is very difficult, and I personally have a lot of respect for your willingness to do so. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: search.debian.org
Hi, Thomas Viehmann wrote: apologies for the cross-post, choose your favorite one of the two to reply. search.debian.org[1], a slightly patched xapian-omega instance, is looking for a kind DD (or a team?) to pick it up. Some more improvements to the language support would be desirable, that involves C++. P.S.: Please CC me if you reply in order to take the job. No need to CC me anymore. As my access to Debian hosts has been disabled, I'll not be able to help out anyway (unless you have very specific questions). It would be cool if someone could drop my email address from the template. Kind regards T. -- Thomas Viehmann, http://thomas.viehmann.net/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
A Software Populist Who Doesn't Do Windows
I don't know how many of you caught sight of this article about Ubuntu in the New York Times, its an amusingly stilted read. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/business/11ubuntu.html I know its now considered bad form to whine about Ubuntu's chronic success at taking credit for Debian's achievements... so, I... won't. I do like how the article mentions Debian's 1000+ volunteers in place of a count of Ubuntu's. I also like Mark's lead quote: “It feels pretty clear to me that the open process produces better stuff,” -- Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com e...@brainfood.com - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315
Re: A Software Populist Who Doesn't Do Windows
Ean Schuessler e...@brainfood.com writes: I don't know how many of you caught sight of this article about Ubuntu in the New York Times, its an amusingly stilted read. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/business/11ubuntu.html It's a dreadful article. It's characteristic of the worst sort of technological reporting by newspapers who don't understand the field. It's full of cutesy attempts at a populist mystique, labored attempts to create a sense of drama, weird misunderstandings of how operating systems work, and all sorts of basic flaws in research about the relationships between Linux, distributions, Debian, and Ubuntu. I could barely stand to read it and was ranting to friends a couple days ago about how horrible it was when I first saw it. I don't think anyone who actually knew something about the subject matter could be happy with that article, regardless of what distribution they're working on. It's badly-written, badly-researched crap. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Results of the Lenny release GR
Robert Millan writes (Re: Results of the Lenny release GR): Actually, I accept the outcome of the last vote. I don't like that we made an exception for firmware, but the developers chose to make one so there's no point in arguing about it. On the other hand, it appears that the Secretary, the DPL and the Release Team don't like that we made an exception ONLY for firmware. As per your reply I will assume you're also in that list. Are you able to see further than the end of your own nose ? Given the results of the ballots so far, what do you think would be the result of a vote to make an exception for the things you are now complaining about ? The answer of course is that once again they would decide against you. Similar results have been had in all the previous GRs. The point of voting is not just to decide on exactly the issue at hand. We're not supposed to vote on everything. Normal functional people are able to see when they are beaten and stop fighting, and a vote amongst the whole project is (or should be) the clearest way to demonstrate to someone that they are beaten. If you can't spot when you've lost a battle then we need to get rid of you. Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Scheduling project-wide post-lenny discussions?
Adeodato Simó writes (Scheduling project-wide post-lenny discussions?): It seems we have a number of projet-wide discussions that we've more or less agreed to postpone until lenny is out. I have a moderate fear that once that happens, they are going to explode (the discussions) all over the lists. Quite possibly. I suggested the creation of the DiscussionsAfterLenny wiki page a while ago, but that page is at the moment a bit of a mess. In particular, it's a dump of items without mentioning who's interested in having the discussion, and volunteering to starting and driving it. Right. So, I'm interested in knowing if people would be fine with making a list of these big issues we have to discuss, and trying to give them slots, as in putting them in some order that makes sense. Also, IMHO, having one or two (per-topic) people responsible for starting them, and trying to/ensuring they get somewhere, by appropriately fostering and summarizing the progress of the discussion, would be very good too. I think this is a good idea. Are you volunteering to maintain the wiki page, and post periodic summaries of the schedule and so on ? :-) Off the top of my head, these are some candidates for scheduling: ... * changes to the Constitution (I've read at least Steve Langasek and Matthew Johnson express interest in this). I think we need to get our GR procedures sorted before we tackle the others since the others may well involve GRs. We have a number of constitutional proposals: - Require Secretary to include position statement URLs in ballots - Require Secretary to assist people with ballot drafting and empower Secretary to briefly delay votes to do so - Increase GR quorum (various options) - Clarify who is responsible for interpreting and enforcing the SC - Fix TC supermajority off-by-one error - Increase TC maximum size Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Results of the Lenny release GR
Adeodato Simó wrote: * Robert Millan [Sun, 11 Jan 2009 08:22:58 +0100]: Currently, the only solution I see is that we ask the developers what they think, and hold another vote. Yes, I'm realizing myself there is not going to be another way. :-( Proposal: hand Robert Millan a nice cup of STFU. Seconded. -- Bernd Zeimetz Debian GNU/Linux Developer GPG Fingerprint: 06C8 C9A2 EAAD E37E 5B2C BE93 067A AD04 C93B FF79 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Results of the Lenny release GR
Robert Millan wrote: OTOH, if you just tell me to go elsewhere, I'm sorry but I don't want to look the other way while the project destroys its reputation for having a commitment to freedom, a democratic system and a set of principles. The only one who works on destroying the project at the moment is *you*. Please don't continue until somebody asks for a vote to remove your from all lists or the whole project, I'm sure enough people would second that. Better go and fix your packages, that would be something useful you could help the project with. -- Bernd Zeimetz Debian GNU/Linux Developer GPG Fingerprint: 06C8 C9A2 EAAD E37E 5B2C BE93 067A AD04 C93B FF79 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
