Re: [OT] aggressiveness on our mailing lists.
Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org wrote: On Fri, Jul 24 2009, MJ Ray wrote: [...] the project should remain polite even in the face of really daft ideas (like the 3017th report that our website CSS is invalid just because the W3C validator is incomplete). Calling a daft idea silly is being rude now? Not necessarily (it depends how one phrases it), but being rude is one way of being not overly genteel (as the earlier message advocated). I feel one shouldn't discourage politeness here. Hope that explains, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [OT] aggressiveness on our mailing lists.
MJ Ray m...@phonecoop.coop writes: Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org wrote: Calling a daft idea silly is being rude now? Not necessarily (it depends how one phrases it), but being rude is one way of being not overly genteel (as the earlier message advocated). I feel one shouldn't discourage politeness here. Agreed, politeness toward people is IMO too infrequent on our lists and is to be actively encouraged. However, I don't think it's necessarily impolite to attack an idea; even to attack it harshly or ridicule it. Care must be taken, by all parties in these conversations, including those who receive the messages, not to inject personal attacks where unwarranted. Strive to craft messages without personal attacks, and to interpret them that way. If what remains is an attack upon an *idea*, so be it; ideas don't have feelings and are not automatically deserving of respect or politeness. “This is a silly idea” attacks no-one and is impolite to no-one. Let those who support the idea come to its defense as they choose; if an idea has no able defenders, let it fall under the attack to clear the way for better ideas. -- \ “All my life I've had one dream: to achieve my many goals.” | `\—Homer, _The Simpsons_ | _o__) | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [OT] aggressiveness on our mailing lists.
la, 2009-07-25 kello 23:12 +1000, Ben Finney kirjoitti: If what remains is an attack upon an *idea*, so be it; ideas don't have feelings and are not automatically deserving of respect or politeness. “This is a silly idea” attacks no-one and is impolite to no-one. Let those who support the idea come to its defense as they choose; if an idea has no able defenders, let it fall under the attack to clear the way for better ideas. While that is true in principle, it is also true that people often have an emotional attachment to ideas they propose, and may be unable to fully prevent the feeling that an attack on their idea is also partially an attack on themselves. (It doesn't help that sometimes that is true.) It is thus often more constructive to express criticism in a gentle and genteel fashion. This does not require approval of a bad idea. For example, in the specific case under discussion, the criticism might have been expressed something like this instead: I think this is a bad idea. It creates extra work for developers just to retain their membership in the project. The proposal so far has been based on activities that developers do anyway, and that is good. Inventing new things DDs must do to keep their membership is a bad idea. I also think unsolicited pings to active developers are a bad idea and should be avoided. Now, if there is active work going on that does not reflect itself in uploads, then I can see using a signed/encrypted email to a role address every couple of years or so could be a workaround to the automatic MIA process. That should be the exception, though. Almost everyone should be covered by the usual process. I believe that if such wording could have avoided the current sub-thread, so we could have concentrated on the actual issues. (My apologies to Manoj if I have misinterpreted his feelings and thoughts. My apologies to everyone for continuing the meta-discussion.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [OT] aggressiveness on our mailing lists.
On Sat, Jul 25 2009, Lars Wirzenius wrote: For example, in the specific case under discussion, the criticism might have been expressed something like this instead: I think this is a bad idea. It creates extra work for developers You are making the assumption that the authors reaction to Bad is less negative than the reaction to Silly. While this is subjective, I do not think it is without contention: Bad possibly has the connotation of malice, or active harm, Silly has association with harmlessness. (c.f. The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 [gcide]) I personally would regard either adjective as equally negative, though I would be driven to either defend my idea or concede it's silliness, instead of attacking the critic. I have also seen ideas characterized as stunningly bad (hi, diziet), which seems to be in line with silly. Negatively characterizing ideas, and acceptable negative adjetives, with all the subjectivity involved, seems ... strange. Mind you, my his a silly idea phrase was a single clause in a long email detailing why the idea was, err, suboptimal, so the whole reaction seems somehow overwrought. Sorry for jumping in again (I had promised to stay off the thread), but I respect Lars, and I thought he deserved a public response. manoj -- Death carries off a man busy picking flowers with an besotted mind, like a great flood does a sleeping village. 47 Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: US embargo restrictions for Debian?
Hello, On Fri, Jul 03, 2009 at 01:00:52PM +0200, Ola Sandbu wrote: I see that Debian is a US registered organization, and then have to obey the laws for that country. The reason for my question is because I could not find any information related to United States embargo regulations at the Debian Web pages. The question is simple: Are you violating the US embargo regulations by allowing me (or anybody else) to install the whole or part of a Debian distribution in a country included in the the lists described by http://www.bis.doc.gov/complianceandenforcement/ListsToCheck.htm ? My only way of understanding that the Debian distribution is legal is if it is classified as information, that is an exception from the law. Please see http://www.debian.org/legal/cryptoinmain for a summary of Debian's current understanding of our obligations under US export law. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Re-thinking Debian membership - take #1: inactivity
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 05:34:19PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: Steve Langasek wrote: On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 11:52:11PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: But I know that there are/will be DDs which do infrastructure stuff only, and rarely upload packages. Such DDs should never be regarded as MIA, of course. I am not convinced of this. Infrastructure contributions are necessary and valuable, but we don't admit people as Debian Developers on the basis of infrastructure contributions, nor to work on infrastructure; they become developers to work on the distribution. The infrastructure is essential for our distribution, same for documentations an translations. I can't see a reason why such people should not be able to become DDs. Because it implies a professional priest caste separate from the developers who will inevitably drift away and lose the perspective needed to understand the concerns of people actually working on the distro? Because people who are trusted with this critical infrastructure earn that trust by being developers first, not by coming in as unknown outsiders and volunteering to be given control over infrastructure tasks? -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [OT] aggressiveness on our mailing lists.
la, 2009-07-25 kello 09:16 -0500, Manoj Srivastava kirjoitti: You are making the assumption that the authors reaction to Bad is less negative than the reaction to Silly. While this is subjective, I do not think it is without contention: My hasty re-wording has now given the wrong impression, sorry. My main point is that it is often possible to express misgivings about things other people propose without exiting the realm of the polite. I hope I can claim that is true even though I failed to completely do so myself. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Re-thinking Debian membership - take #1: inactivity
Steve Langasek wrote: The infrastructure is essential for our distribution, same for documentations an translations. I can't see a reason why such people should not be able to become DDs. Because it implies a professional priest caste separate from the developers who will inevitably drift away and lose the perspective needed to understand the concerns of people actually working on the distro? No, because a lot of infrastructure stuff takes so much time that it is almost not possible to maintain packages probably anymore. Remember, people have a real life, too. Because people who are trusted with this critical infrastructure earn that trust by being developers first, not by coming in as unknown outsiders and volunteering to be given control over infrastructure tasks? See above. Also: There're a lot of teams where outsiders can help and earn trust witout being able to break things. -- Bernd Zeimetz Debian GNU/Linux Developer GPG Fingerprints: 06C8 C9A2 EAAD E37E 5B2C BE93 067A AD04 C93B FF79 ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Re-thinking Debian membership - take #1: inactivity
Bernd Zeimetz be...@bzed.de (26/07/2009): See above. Also: There're a lot of teams where outsiders can help and earn trust without being able to break things. Do you mean people like Simon Paillard? With contributions in l10n, i18n, www, and mirror domains? If you didn't, I (at the very least) do. Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re-thinking Debian membership - take #1: inactivity
Cyril Brulebois wrote: Bernd Zeimetz be...@bzed.de (26/07/2009): See above. Also: There're a lot of teams where outsiders can help and earn trust without being able to break things. Do you mean people like Simon Paillard? With contributions in l10n, i18n, www, and mirror domains? Yes. -- Bernd Zeimetz Debian GNU/Linux Developer GPG Fingerprints: 06C8 C9A2 EAAD E37E 5B2C BE93 067A AD04 C93B FF79 ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
