Re: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
On Friday 31 July 2009, Steve Langasek wrote: I don't believe the kind of coarse synchronization that's been proposed for the releases would make Debian-Ubuntu crossgrades significantly easier. Most of the local changes that Ubuntu has today would still apply, and there are rebuilt binaries that share version numbers, introducing all kinds of fun possibilities. paranoid Right. So Ubuntu can put its paid developers to work to create a tested upgrade path from Debian to Ubuntu and Ubuntu can go off with its publicity budget and promote itself with that feature. How fun. I see zero benefit for Debian there. /paranoid -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Ana Guerrero wrote: Hi, Agnieszka Czajkowska has presented this morning at DebConf a very nice redesign proposal off the Debian logo and the Debian website. She has been working on this all the last year as part of her master thesis in Design. You can take a look at her presentation at: https://penta.debconf.org/dc9_schedule/attachments/112_debian_redesign.tar.gz Watch first the deb_redesign-talk*.jpg images then debian_illustration*.jpg What do you think? :D I'd be happy to see wallpapers/screensavers/gdm artwork to include it in our packages. Cheers, Emilio signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian redesign
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 09:09:40PM +0200, Meike Reichle wrote: * I really want to have a concurrent design on the *.debian.org resources (webpages, packages, bugs, wiki, lists, ...) optimally even a slightly different one for all the *.debian.net stuff. Having a design that can even be taken to business cards, boot screens, wallpapers, DVDs etc ... even better! +1 for corporate identity, and +2 for getting this done before squeeze :) * Aesthetically I am fine with Agnieszka's design as well as kalle's. Slight preference for kalle since I saw more of his (from Agnieszka I only saw a small screenshot) and also because it's technical feasibility is already somewhat established. As others stated before though: I guess we could very well mix the two and have a nice synergy of Agnieszka's portability and recognisability and kalle's clean look and technical feasibility. From a first glance at both of them, I'd say Kalle set up a new stylesheet for an existing layout (e.g. packages view, bugs etc.) while Agnieszka tries to go a step further. I would like to them to find a common line here. I think in some places simplifying the view would be very good but we cannot afford lowing information over it. But this is design which I basically have no clue at all about... :) * Like most DD's I have grown somewhat attached to our current logo. There is already a cleaner version of it in our official logo which is also used quite frequently (mostly without the bottle). Personally I don't mind that much. As long as it remains the swirl and keeps its color I am fine with it. I had a look at a few different variations of the logo as well and must say that I'd prefer keeping it the way it is now. If for printing there is a need to simplify it (e.g. for small logos on T-shirts or whatever) I would still be fine with that. But having a look at our logo in different colors I don't think that keeping the current color is mandatory. If we stay in the same color range I'm totally fine with a change, i.e. it should not be black or green all of the sudden. Anyways, thanks again for the design work. Keep it up and push the changes. :) Hauke signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian redesign
2009/7/29 Ana Guerrero a...@debian.org: What do you think? :D On the posters: I find some of them nice but would not use some of them to advertise the project. On the website design: I would prefer if Kalle's was implemented as it has been 'hatching' for quite a long time already and has demonstrated it is technically feasible. One thing I dislike about *both* proposals is that there is too much white space in the web pages. I would appreciate if somebody (pixelgirl?) could draw us proper icons to use to lighten the pages and use up some of the whitespace (maybe to the right of the text). Adding some images related to the context would actually help the site and make it look much more user-friendly. Regards Javier -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 30-07-2009 07:52, Mark Brown wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 09:19:51AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: The new simplified swirl looks cleaner, and it would be nice to move to a free-er font. The example changes to the website made it look Might it be worth considering using the new font so on even if we end up keeping the current swirl? The proposal during DebConf used a non-free font with a free alternative and some people raised the idea of creating a new one, well, the same idea applies to our current logo's font, it's just a matter of implement it (and yes, Font Copyright is different from Software/Trademark). There is no basis to say that the logo/font change would have a positive impact in our brand. Kind regards, - -- Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) Debian. Freedom to code. Code to freedom! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEAREIAAYFAkpyvBkACgkQCjAO0JDlykYuQwCffQOu4bG4q6hVCcDIR8/oL94r 42YAnjsNpoUNa71VKW+uEM9vDGx2cELt =ECsz -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Freezing times: [Re: Bits from the release team and request for discussion]
Luk Claes wrote: time-based freezes == For the squeeze release (and future releases), we are considering a time-based freeze, meaning that the freeze will happen at a predictable and predetermined time with the release happening at a later time once the release requirements are met. We think that having a time-based freeze would enhance the responsibility among developers to plan ahead and make sure that the version they want to get in the next release is one that is stable and can be well supported. time-based freezes would make a release schedule more predictable as long as we make sure that what gets into the freeze is sensible. We do think that a time-based *release* is a no-go for Debian though, as we only want to release when we are ready in order to not compromise the quality of the release. About freeze timing we think that DebConf should definitely not fall into a freeze and that we should leave time after DebConf to integrate the possibly disruptive changes we introduced by doing cool stuff at DebConf. We noticed that releases in the first quarter of the year worked out quite well in the past like both Etch and Lenny. Taking these into consideration we think it would be best to freeze in December. As freezing in December would mean that a release cycle always takes about the same amount of years, let's consider the various options. Having a release cycle of 1 year would be very short and would cause some issues with security support and upgrades. Having a release cycle of 3 years would be quite long and would mean a very long security support. So it looks like a release cycle of about 2 years seems the best way to go forward. To have the better synergies with Ubuntu and upstreams, I think we should freeze at the same times as Ubuntu, so in March or/and September: - upstreams will deliver the high quality software at these times December is to early. - common BSPs could increment size of fixer, so on long term also the number of developers in Debian and in Ubuntu. - we could really profit from ubuntu: more testing Ubuntu has more users, but Debian has more bug solvers, so IMHO we need to wait for Ubuntu freeze, to have more tester (thus more solved bugs) . I find not to good to solve bugs on an already obsolete release (KDE or gnome), so that nearly only our user will profit about this. I think in this manner, on long term we really help Ubuntu, but also for sure Debian and the Debian quality. ciao cate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
I'm using Debian for about ten years now and I use it because Debian is different. While I appreciate the intention to position Debian better I am concerned about the general direction, I am missing what I think the most important values of Debian. a modern look, a modern operating System (deb_redesign-talk1.jpg) it's adapting their image with the time we live in (deb_redesign-talk2.jpg) What's modern and what is the time we live in with respect to software? It is - taking away control over the user's computer from the user - releasing unfinished software for the benefit of market share - fighting competing software (and free software) with patents - intentional incompatibilities for vendor lock in - simply: fighting user freedom for the sake of share holder value. And it's getting more and more aggressive in this times we live in. How is Debian related to this? Just one way: stand up against. What is an image campaign? Image campaigns are used by the advertising industry and everybody knows: it's all about lying. It is the very essence of an image campaign to *not* talk about the product but to try to associate the product with something completely unrelated, something customers think positive about, something they desire (unconsciously). - smoke this brand of cigarette to feel free and have adventures - drive this car (200 kW) to save our environment - use this product and young women will queue up to kiss your feet (or whatever). Debian must spread information not construct an image. Some examples from debian_redesign and why I'm worried: deb_redesign-talk7.jpg shows a proposal for the Debian home page. It starts with what is debian? and ends with all of it free. (in bold). At the moment at http://www.debian.org/intro/about this is It's all free? (mark the question mark) and it starts an *explanation* why this can be. This is what makes Debian different. You don't promise free beer, you explain what free software is all about. While it may seem desirable to make Debian web pages look more light and fresh: Debian web pages will stay mostly text. You need text to explain. Debian is not Everything is easy. Just click and follow the instructions. No need to understand. Debian is You want to know how it works? Here is the (lengthy) explanation. debian_illustration1.jpg to debian_illustration6.jpg show young people using debian. While from an European point of view its difficult to find something sexually offending, the message is: People using Debian are young and pretty and sexy. Sorry, during the ten years of using Debian my beard became grey and I will reach the age of 60 soon. Debian didn't help. Should I use Ubuntu instead, or Windows? (And I will not talk about all that young women surrounding me I'm missing.) Debian is not young and sexy. Debian is an operating system (and more). It is rock solid. It is developed by a community dedicated to free software. Please stay Debian (including your image). Werner Baumann -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 06:40:41AM -0300, Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) wrote: On 30-07-2009 07:52, Mark Brown wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 09:19:51AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: The new simplified swirl looks cleaner, and it would be nice to move to a free-er font. The example changes to the website made it look Might it be worth considering using the new font so on even if we end up keeping the current swirl? The proposal during DebConf used a non-free font with a free alternative and some people raised the idea of creating a new one, well, the same idea applies to our current logo's font, it's just a matter of implement it (and yes, Font Copyright is different from Software/Trademark). Oh, right. From what Steve said I'd understood that the font in the new logo was already freer than the existing one. There is no basis to say that the logo/font change would have a positive impact in our brand. I broadly agree, though for the font having a free font would be a win anyway. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Hello, Werner Baumann wrote: I'm using Debian for about ten years now and I use it because Debian is different. While I appreciate the intention to position Debian better I am concerned about the general direction, I am missing what I think the most important values of Debian. +1 our web pages need an overhaul. We have an interest to explain ourselves to the non-Debian world and guide ourselves through the ongoing Debian-associated activities. That communication is happening via the web and such genuine interest should be driving development of the pages. We can certainly learn from the success that Ubuntu has, but we should not try to mimic or chase them. In the contrary, we should be happy about every Debian package that is brought to a wider audience with it (2.5:1 ratio in in favour of Ubuntu on popcon for my packages). And I think we are happy. I liked some of the redesign posters, and they should possibly be sold as geekware. But they could substitute Debian with everything else, even with the Redmond OS. However, when attracting some teenagers or so, of which some will only learn about computing, it may be lovely to have some more spiritual messages for them that go beyond free. For instance I suggest to mention education, world-wide contacts, fun and doing something good for the world. Steffen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
On 2009-07-29, Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org wrote: So the developers are then within their rights to ignore the short first freeze, and work to release whenever the packages are really ready. Uh, that's what a subset of them always did, no? Like starting transitions during freezes with no coordination? Been there, done that, thank you. Well, or not fixing RC bugs during the freeze at all but complaining that the freeze is taking so long and hurts unstable. Kind regards, Philipp Kern -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Dne, 31. 07. 2009 12:51:04 je Werner Baumann napisal(a): I'm using Debian for about ten years now and I use it because Debian is different. While I appreciate the intention to position Debian better I am concerned about the general direction, I am missing what I think the most important values of Debian. a modern look, a modern operating System (deb_redesign-talk1.jpg) it's adapting their image with the time we live in (deb_redesign-talk2.jpg) What's modern and what is the time we live in with respect to software? It is - taking away control over the user's computer from the user - releasing unfinished software for the benefit of market share - fighting competing software (and free software) with patents - intentional incompatibilities for vendor lock in - simply: fighting user freedom for the sake of share holder value. And it's getting more and more aggressive in this times we live in. How is Debian related to this? Just one way: stand up against. What is an image campaign? Image campaigns are used by the advertising industry and everybody knows: it's all about lying. It is the very essence of an image campaign to *not* talk about the product but to try to associate the product with something completely unrelated, something customers think positive about, something they desire (unconsciously). - smoke this brand of cigarette to feel free and have adventures - drive this car (200 kW) to save our environment - use this product and young women will queue up to kiss your feet (or whatever). Debian must spread information not construct an image. Some examples from debian_redesign and why I'm worried: deb_redesign-talk7.jpg shows a proposal for the Debian home page. It starts with what is debian? and ends with all of it free. (in bold). At the moment at http://www.debian.org/intro/about this is It's all free? (mark the question mark) and it starts an *explanation* why this can be. This is what makes Debian different. You don't promise free beer, you explain what free software is all about. While it may seem desirable to make Debian web pages look more light and fresh: Debian web pages will stay mostly text. You need text to explain. Debian is not Everything is easy. Just click and follow the instructions. No need to understand. Debian is You want to know how it works? Here is the (lengthy) explanation. debian_illustration1.jpg to debian_illustration6.jpg show young people using debian. While from an European point of view its difficult to find something sexually offending, the message is: People using Debian are young and pretty and sexy. Sorry, during the ten years of using Debian my beard became grey and I will reach the age of 60 soon. Debian didn't help. Should I use Ubuntu instead, or Windows? (And I will not talk about all that young women surrounding me I'm missing.) Debian is not young and sexy. Debian is an operating system (and more). It is rock solid. It is developed by a community dedicated to free software. Please stay Debian (including your image). Werner Baumann -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org As a Debian user I can only say: couldn't agree more. Your words sum it up magnificiently: How is Debian related to this? Just one way: stand up against. In my view, Debian is far less about image and far more about substance than any competing product (or any product in general, for that matter). Let those who have no substance to show worry about image. There's hardly a better way to keep gathering prominence than just by staying Debian. Or a harder one: keeping up such high standards of software quality and software freedom is not an easy task. -- Certifiable Loonix User 481801 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Klistvud wrote: In my view, Debian is far less about image and far more about substance than any competing product (or any product in general, for that matter). Not that I don't agree with that, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't care about our image at all. We can improve the distribution and it's image at the same time, can't we? Cheers, Emilio signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian redesign
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 05:18:28PM +0200, Emilio Pozuelo Monfort wrote: Klistvud wrote: In my view, Debian is far less about image and far more about substance than any competing product (or any product in general, for that matter). Not that I don't agree with that, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't care about our image at all. We can improve the distribution and it's image at the same time, can't we? Yes, we can! ...and should imo. Hauke signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
On 2009-07-30, Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org wrote: You seem to have been operating under a misconception that the *majority* of packages in Ubuntu have been touched wrt Debian. They have not - the vast majority of packages in Ubuntu are unmodified Debian packages, as shown by the graphs on the bottom of https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html and https://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html - which is for the best given the relative number of developers working on each project. I don't think it holds true for main, though. Unless I'm misreading the graphs. Of course it applies to universe where Ubuntu is heavily relying on Debian to do the work. But it's only main that's officially supported (even security-wise) anyway. Kind regards, Philipp Kern -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
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Ndugu mdau, Asante kwa kutembelea HTTP://TZLIVENEWS.COM, tovuti inyokupa habari za kila siku na kukupa uwezo wa kutangaza huduma na vitu vingine unavotaka kuuza bure. Maboresho makubwa tuliyofanya kufuatia maombi ya wadau ni pamoja na kuongeza : A: FORUM -Ukitaka kununua au kuuza tuma hitaji lako kwenye forum ya http://tzlivenews.com -Kwa majadiliano ya namna yoyote ingia kwenye forum hii. -Forum inaruhusu kuuda vikundi . -Ndani ya forum unaweza kumtumia rafiki zako message za binafsi PM. -Forum inaruhusu ku-CREATE TOPIC watu waweze kutuma maoni yao. B: MAONI Kila habari ndani ya http://tzlivenews.com wadau wanaweza kutoa maoni yao. Hivyo wadau: 1. Tunaomba email hii tuma kwa marafiki zako wote. 2. Ukiingia ndani ya forum CREATE TOPIC au changia maoni. 3. Ukisoma habari toa mchango wako kwa maoni. 4. Ukiwa na kitu au vitu unavyotaka kuuza nyumbani kama viwanya, nyumba za kukodisha, vifaa vya dukani n.k tumia tovuti hii ya manufaa watu wanotembelea ni wengi. Asante, TZLIVENEWS.COM TEAM -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
There seem to be two quite different models about how synchronisation of Debian and Ubuntu LTS is intended to work. I believe it would be very helpful to know if there is any agreement with Ubuntu about this. The two models as I can see them from the discussion so far: Model 1: Debian freezes in December Debian developers concentrate on fixing RC bugs Ubuntu developers concentrate on including newer versions of major software packages When the number of RC bugs in Debian is low enough Ubuntu freezes Ubuntu and Debian release at approximately the same time With this model Debian developers will bear the main burden of bug fixing while Ubuntu will use the time to integrate newer software packages. Model 2: Debian and Ubuntu freeze at the same time (December?) Debian and Ubuntu developers coordinate in fixing RC bugs Debian and Ubuntu release at about the same time With this model the burden is shared and both operating system will be at the same state with respect to the main components. Differences will be according to different philosophy (questions asked by the installer, components and configuration of a standard installation, what is user friendly). There may be also differences in the versions of main software packages, but this differences would be clear at freeze time and due to different philosophy. While I think model 2 could prove useful for Debian and Ubuntu I can't see what Debian would gain from model 1. I believe this discussion would look very different if Ubuntu says it agrees on model 2. Werner Baumann -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 12:51:04PM +0200, Werner Baumann wrote: Some examples from debian_redesign and why I'm worried: deb_redesign-talk7.jpg shows a proposal for the Debian home page. It starts with what is debian? and ends with all of it free. (in bold). At the moment at http://www.debian.org/intro/about this is It's all free? (mark the question mark) and it starts an *explanation* why this can be. This is what makes Debian different. You don't promise free beer, you explain what free software is all about. Read http://www.debian.org/intro/about again, there is the exact same sentence (all of it free), two lines before It's all free?. pixelgirl explained she only took the first part of the text. Also note the page is totally fictional, as the menu on the left is showing News as highlighted while the text on the right is nothing related to news. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian 5.0.1
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09:33AM -0500, gene wrote: Hi: I will make this short and to the point. I like Debian 5.0.1. It does not have any wireless configuration capability only network card recognition. Does Debian plan to incorporate wireless USB Adapter configuration in future releases? Thank you. You should ask this question on debian-user mailing list. The debian-project list is for Discussion about non-technical topics related to the Debian Project.. When resending Your question to the appropriate list, be more specific in stating what does not work. Wireless 802.11b+g adapters do work and can be configured, i.e. user specifies SSID, password etc. and gets connected to the network. This same applies to USB 802.11b+g adapters as far as I can see, provided there is a driver for that particular USB adapter. -- Tapio Lehtonen tapio.lehto...@iki.fi http://www.iki.fi/tapio.lehtonen signature.asc Description: Digital signature
