Re: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 04:31:56PM +, Philipp Kern wrote: On 2009-07-30, Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org wrote: You seem to have been operating under a misconception that the *majority* of packages in Ubuntu have been touched wrt Debian. They have not - the vast majority of packages in Ubuntu are unmodified Debian packages, as shown by the graphs on the bottom of https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html and https://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html - which is for the best given the relative number of developers working on each project. I don't think it holds true for main, though. Unless I'm misreading the graphs. Of course it applies to universe where Ubuntu is heavily relying on Debian to do the work. Well, most of the 'local' packages on the graph for main are actually language packs, so I don't think it makes much sense to count those anyway. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Hi, On Donnerstag, 30. Juli 2009, Frans Pop wrote: One that will make a statement that women in Debian should always wear deep cleavages, and men in Debian have sex with their laptops. Nice... IMHO you're seriously overreacting here. IMO you are. The posters as I see them do not make the statements that you read into them, that is entirely your interpretation of them. You are aware that this can be said exactly about what you see in them, are you? Marga also wrote the following, which I assume you consider invalid, as it doesnt follow your logic. Anyway, it is reality: I'm sorry, but I really can't accept this. It's not that some people might get offended, it's that some people ALREADY feel uncomfortable about the message being sent. And this is with a low number of people having seen them. And yes, those pics also made me role my eyes and say no way. And certainly not because I dont like (semi)naked people or whatever - but because I dont like stereotypes, and especially not to represent an universal OS. regards, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Debian redesign
On Saturday 01 August 2009, Holger Levsen wrote: On Donnerstag, 30. Juli 2009, Frans Pop wrote: One that will make a statement that women in Debian should always wear deep cleavages, and men in Debian have sex with their laptops. Nice... IMHO you're seriously overreacting here. IMO you are. I disagree. There is IMO nothing in those posters that says that women cannot be involved in Debian unless they show deep cleavages. And the sex with laptops thing is even more farfetched. *That* is the overreaction. And yes, those pics also made me role my eyes and say no way. And s/role/roll/ certainly not because I dont like (semi)naked people or whatever - but because I dont like stereotypes, and especially not to represent an universal OS. I can agree to some point with the stereotyping, but that does not change the fact that *nothing* in the posters tells people they should conform to them. The problem is: stereotyping is a rather effective marketing mechanism... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Yes, I did not notice all of it free. in the original. But I did not because it is in the midst of a chapter, not at the end, and it is not emphasized. This small changes change the meaning. pixelgirl explained she only took the first part of the text. The full text would have ruined the layout. It's the wrong way round: Set up a fine layout and find a matching content. The Debian web site is built the other way round. Another example: Why replace Getting Debian with download. Getting Debian links to a small tutorial about the various ways to - well - get Debian. Why name it download? Because all the others have a download area? To catch generation download? My point is this: The mission of the modern advertising industry is to fool users. All the tools are are designed for this goal. While it seems a nice idea to turn these tools around and use them for good, be aware of the danger: the spirit of advertising may creep in unnoticed and finally turn around the content. Except for getting the country wrong this old limerick sums it up pretty well (with my apologies to the tigers; they are not evil). A smiling young lady from Niger once went for a ride on a tiger. When they came back from the ride, was the lady inside and the smile on the face of the tiger. Werner -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Please look at mentors.debian.net
Every organisation can only survive (or grow) with a constant stream of fresh members. So please dear Debian Developers: Go to http://mentors.debian.net! There are people willing to get involved in Debian. But some of them might be in danger to get frustrated due to lack of response. Thomas Koch, http://www.koch.ro -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
At Sat, 1 Aug 2009 12:22:29 +0200, Steve Langasek wrote: Because the current website is *all but impossible to navigate*, lacking many of the signposts that users rely on to find their way. On the current Debian website, we have the following sidebar: Getting Debian CD vendors CD ISO images Network install Pre-installed None of these includes the key word download. We should not make users think this hard in order to figure out how to download Debian - that's entirely the wrong kind of elitism! Replacing Getting Debian with download means to drop CD vendors and Pre-installed. Where have they gone? Will have have to click download to be informed about vendors of Debian CDs? The current menu entry reflects the fact that there are various ways to get Debian. These many ways can be confusing, but you sure don't want to drop any of these. A better tutorial text behind Getting Debian would be an improvement, though. I won't agree that the Debian web site is *all but impossible to navigate* (after all it is better than many comercial sites), but I agree that many parts of it could do with a better structure. But this is where to start, design must follow. Getting Debian is elitism because it lacks the signposts and key words? You must be kidding. What kind of hard thinking is required to understand Getting Debian. What do you think of users (not only Debian users)? Do you really have to trigger them with signposts and keywords because they don't understand Getting Debian? Werner -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
[no subject]
Hello all, I have read through all your comments, and it appeared that there's a big misunderstanding here concerning the illustrations. Since some of you didn't attend my talk, I'll clarify a few things now: 1. Logo The current swirl has many details that make it hard to print on smaller media and even vectors would not solve the problem. The current font is non-free and would rather fit advertise a box of cigarettes than a software project. The swirl-i-dot for the new logo was inspired by the Genie-Lamp, with a simplified swirl to keep the recognition factor. Since a swirl is quite common in logos, I had to put it in a context with the font, so that it is seen as a whole. The font was chosen to point out a solidness, stability and timelessness to the project. Please note, that the swirl is only fixed to the word debian, its position can be changed with words like debconf easily. 2. Web site My slides just show a fictional sample of the layout. The content is a different chapter, which needs to be discussed in order to usability issues. amount of texts etc... I'll be working with Kalle on that one. 3. Illustrations Keep in mind that the illustrations do not show Debian people. For example, Illustration #3 (The one with the guy in the office) shows an ordinary worker, who's just glad that his boss installed Debian to do his work, so he can concentrate on other things. ;) If any boss or worker would see those illustrations, both would understand the metaphoric/symbolic message. Same applies to the other illustrations, they show situations or emotions around/about Debian, rather than showing the people behind it, except the illustration #6 with the bug fixing, which is based on the history of the term bug itself (I don't have to mention Wikipedia here, do I?). Remember, a campaign does not target people from the inside, it is made for an audience. To find the right way to express a message, you have to see things with their point of view, not just use your own perception. You can't look into people's heads, but with some research, you'll be able to point out larger tendencies. 4. Usage The corporate identity and the campaign are related to one project, but should be treated separately . Both would be used in two different contexts, one is the look and feel, the other would be the advertising. I am not going to subscribe on this list, if you have any further questions, mail me directly or catch me on IRC. :) Cheers, pixelgirl. -- .: it's been a long way /home, baby! :. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Hello all, I have read through all your comments, and it appeared that there's a big misunderstanding here concerning the illustrations. Since some of you didn't attend my talk, I'll clarify a few things now: 1. Logo The current swirl has many details that make it hard to print on smaller media and even vectors would not solve the problem. The current font is non-free and would rather fit advertise a box of cigarettes than a software project. The swirl-i-dot for the new logo was inspired by the Genie-Lamp, with a simplified swirl to keep the recognition factor. Since a swirl is quite common in logos, I had to put it in a context with the font, so that it is seen as a whole. The font was chosen to point out a solidness, stability and timelessness to the project. Please note, that the swirl is only fixed to the word debian, its position can be changed with words like debconf easily. 2. Web site My slides just show a fictional sample of the layout. The content is a different chapter, which needs to be discussed in order to usability issues. amount of texts etc... I'll be working with Kalle on that one. 3. Illustrations Keep in mind that the illustrations do not show Debian people. For example, Illustration #3 (The one with the guy in the office) shows an ordinary worker, who's just glad that his boss installed Debian to do his work, so he can concentrate on other things. ;) If any boss or worker would see those illustrations, both would understand the metaphoric/symbolic message. Same applies to the other illustrations, they show situations or emotions around/about Debian, rather than showing the people behind it, except the illustration #6 with the bug fixing, which is based on the history of the term bug itself (I don't have to mention Wikipedia here, do I?). Remember, a campaign does not target people from the inside, it is made for an audience. To find the right way to express a message, you have to see things with their point of view, not just use your own perception. You can't look into people's heads, but with some research, you'll be able to point out larger tendencies. 4. Usage The corporate identity and the campaign are related to one project, but should be treated separately . Both would be used in two different contexts, one is the look and feel, the other would be the advertising. I am not going to subscribe on this list, if you have any further questions, mail me directly or catch me on IRC. :) Cheers, pixelgirl. -- .: it's been a long way /home, baby! :. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Sat, Aug 01 2009, Steve Langasek wrote: On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 11:41:29AM +0200, Werner Baumann wrote: Another example: Why replace Getting Debian with download. Getting Debian links to a small tutorial about the various ways to - well - get Debian. Why name it download? Because all the others have a download area? To catch generation download? Because the current website is *all but impossible to navigate*, lacking many of the signposts that users rely on to find their way. On the current Debian website, we have the following sidebar: Getting Debian CD vendors CD ISO images Network install Pre-installed None of these includes the key word download. We should not make users think this hard in order to figure out how to download Debian - that's entirely the wrong kind of elitism! Sounds like the solution is to perhaps replace CD ISO images with Download CD(images), not replace Getting Debian IOW, the replacement is beig advocated at the wrong heading level. manoj -- Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. Henry Spencer, University of Toronto Unix hack Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 12:10:22PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Getting Debian CD vendors CD ISO images Network install Pre-installed None of these includes the key word download. We should not make users think this hard in order to figure out how to download Debian - that's entirely the wrong kind of elitism! Sounds like the solution is to perhaps replace CD ISO images with Download CD(images), not replace Getting Debian IOW, the replacement is beig advocated at the wrong heading level. On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 07:11:30PM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: How about this: Getting Debian Download images Network install Pre-installed CD vedors Yes, I am not advocating a specific change to the side bar (beyond noting that the word 'Download' is currently missing), I am only reacting to the claim that the website is well-designed as-is - it is not. Rather, it has grown organically over time, and is need of some good usability pruning. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
On Wed, Jul 29 2009, Stephen Frost wrote: * Sune Vuorela (nos...@vuorela.dk) wrote: I'm hoping that we can convince the release team to change their mind. I doubt you can, and I hope you don't. It could have been announced better, but in general I think it's a good thing for Debian. Please get over how it was announced. Well, yes and no. I think a freeze every two years is a good idea. I just do not think that we should freeze in 5 months or so. manoj Well, I think Manoj is right here. Freezing in ~5 months would effectively delay or cancel several innovations within Debian which has been planned and worked in for several months before. It is just a too short as a timeframe for such a giant mass like Debian to manoeuvre towards a freeze with two new kfreebsd ports recently taken on board. -- God is real, unless declared integer. Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- pub 4096R/0E4BD0AB 2003-03-18 people.fccf.net/danchev/key pgp.mit.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Please look at mentors.debian.net
Hi, Every organisation can only survive (or grow) with a constant stream of fresh members. This is obviously true. So please dear Debian Developers: Go to http://mentors.debian.net! There are people willing to get involved in Debian. But some of them might be in danger to get frustrated due to lack of response. Did you send an RFS message to the debian-mentors@ list about your package(s)? While not guaranteed, there are good chances you get a review and eventually an interested sponsor willing to upload for you. Please, do not accept the lack of response as a rejection or disregard, it is probably a man power missing to put hands on your work. Chances might increase dramatically if you take care of already existing orphaned or neglected package, sending patches to BTS in order to help fixing RC-bugs and so on. -- pub 4096R/0E4BD0AB 2003-03-18 people.fccf.net/danchev/key pgp.mit.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Please look at mentors.debian.net
Il giorno Sat, 1 Aug 2009 16:04:40 +0200 Thomas Koch tho...@koch.ro ha scritto: So please dear Debian Developers: Go to http://mentors.debian.net! There are people willing to get involved in Debian. But some of them might be in danger to get frustrated due to lack of response. If you have some packages on mentors.d.n, try to contact one of the teams listed at http://wiki.debian.org/Teams. If a package falls under a given category, chances are much higher to receive sponsoring. Regards, -- . ''`. Luca Falavigna : :' : Ubuntu MOTU Developer `. `'` Debian Maintainer `- GPG Key: 0x86BC2A50 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian redesign
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 01-08-2009 13:38, *** pxlgirl *** wrote: [...] 1. Logo The current swirl has many details that make it hard to print on smaller media and even vectors would not solve the problem. The current font is non-free and would rather fit advertise a box of cigarettes than a software project. I beg to differ. I had no problems printing the current logo on business cards, stickers with the size of business cards and pins with 2cm of diameter. To be honest, most of the Debian products we have been producing in Brazil in the last 5 years found no problems with the suppliers regarding the details of Debian's logo, some of the things we made so far includes caps, pins, buttons, two different types of backpacks, t-shirts, CDs/DVDs (and its covers), stickers of various sizes and different types of use. Our current logo's font is [1]Poppl Laudatio Condensed and Berthold sells under different types of licensing, including World Wide licenses. There seems to be some different free alternatives like LaudatioC, but I would say that we can use the same idea gave during the talk about Debian redesign and implement a free alternative for it. (Or somebody can wonder how much would cost a World Wide license :) 1. http://www.bertholdtypes.com/bq_library/90090.html I would also tend to say that different people would have different preferences regarding the use of fonts, either for a box of cigarettes or for a software project. Our current logo holds two different versions,one for Open Use and another for Official Use, and it is still unclear if the logo change would _really_ have a positive impact on our brand. The swirl of the Official Logo is a simplified version and is also used by many of us, that could be an option when one need a simplified swirl. The swirl-i-dot for the new logo was inspired by the Genie-Lamp, with a simplified swirl to keep the recognition factor. Since a swirl is quite common in logos, I had to put it in a context with the font, so that it is seen as a whole. The font was chosen to point out a solidness, stability and timelessness to the project. Please note, that the swirl is only fixed to the word debian, its position can be changed with words like debconf easily. But it seems that wouldn't be possible to detach it from the debian text as we do with the current version of Open Use Logo. [...] 3. Illustrations Keep in mind that the illustrations do not show Debian people. For example, Illustration #3 (The one with the guy in the office) shows an ordinary worker, who's just glad that his boss installed Debian to do his work, so he can concentrate on other things. ;) If any boss or worker would see those illustrations, both would understand the metaphoric/symbolic message. Same applies to the other illustrations, they show situations or emotions around/about Debian, rather than showing the people behind it, except the illustration #6 with the bug fixing, which is based on the history of the term bug itself (I don't have to mention Wikipedia here, do I?). Remember, a campaign does not target people from the inside, it is made for an audience. To find the right way to express a message, you have to see things with their point of view, not just use your own perception. You can't look into people's heads, but with some research, you'll be able to point out larger tendencies. Perhaps some Debian people would like to identify themselves with the proposed campaign, even if they are not the target audience, they are the people behind the project and, in certain way, signing the message, after all, a lot of them gave a lot of their time to help the project. I would say that any new campaign, be it to the outside public or not, should take the feedback from Debian people into consideration and incorporate possible changes to reflect a broader consensus, trying to send the same message. It would be impossible to please all sorts of people but it is probably possible to adopt different aspects to deal with different concerns and still conveys a strong message. 4. Usage The corporate identity and the campaign are related to one project, but should be treated separately . Both would be used in two different contexts, one is the look and feel, the other would be the advertising. Thanks for clarifying this. I would also say that the logo change should be a third different thing, we can improve our look and feel and release a marketing campaign without changing our logos. I am not going to subscribe on this list, if you have any further questions, mail me directly or catch me on IRC. :) As requested, you are cc:ed. I would just point that you should consider join debian-project or another mail list to discuss such topics, that would make easier to get feedback, propose new ideas and move on with the proposals.
