The role of debian-private
Hello, there is a discussion in debian-private about the role of debian-private. There is nothing private in that discussion, so I'm following it up here. So, some people are advocating in favour of a private mailing list for DD chatter. The fact that that idea is being very vocally pushed by no less than two people prompts me to double check some fundamental facts about the Debian project. So, here's how, so far, I understand things are supposed to work. We have a social contract: http://www.debian.org/social_contract where we say: We will not hide problems. This is generally taken to mean that as much as possible of Debian work and discussion ought to be public. That idea is violated, institutionally, in at least two points: - embargoed security issues, in order to be able to participate in vendor-sec; - and debian-private, which is supposed to host discussion about sensitive topics, with the understanding that private discussion should be kept to a minimum and moved to public lists as soon as it's possible to do so. My understanding is that the intention of the project is to keep these violations to as little as one possibly can, and this intention has also been reflected in the results of this GR: http://www.debian.org/vote/2005/vote_002 I used to take all of this as something obvious and well understood throughout the project. So, if someone thinks that those assumptions are wrong, I'd like to hear their reasons. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The role of debian-private
On 09.06.2010 16:08, Enrico Zini wrote: Hello, there is a discussion in debian-private about the role of debian-private. There is nothing private in that discussion, so I'm following it up here. So, some people are advocating in favour of a private mailing list for DD chatter. The fact that that idea is being very vocally pushed by no less than two people prompts me to double check some fundamental facts about the Debian project. So, here's how, so far, I understand things are supposed to work. We have a social contract: http://www.debian.org/social_contract where we say: We will not hide problems. This is generally taken to mean that as much as possible of Debian work and discussion ought to be public. That idea is violated, institutionally, in at least two points: - embargoed security issues, in order to be able to participate in vendor-sec; - and debian-private, which is supposed to host discussion about sensitive topics, with the understanding that private discussion should be kept to a minimum and moved to public lists as soon as it's possible to do so. My understanding is that the intention of the project is to keep these violations to as little as one possibly can, and this intention has also been reflected in the results of this GR: http://www.debian.org/vote/2005/vote_002 I used to take all of this as something obvious and well understood throughout the project. So, if someone thinks that those assumptions are wrong, I'd like to hear their reasons. Hmm. I think you are confusing secrecy with privacy. Embargoed issues should be keep secrets during some time, but anyway IIRC debian-security is not more automatically forwarded to debian-private, so I think it is not more a topic. But the most of the mail in debian-private are about privacy, not secrets so it is not IMHO a We will not hide problems. For privacy reasons we don't want to show all world about our vacation dates and destinations, about health and children, about personal issues we have with other people (in and outside Debian), etc. discussion keep to the minimum: no, we are happy to help, to congratulate, to exchange beer meetings, etc to our fellows. But still private issues, which IMHO it is not about hiding problems I don't think traffic shoudl be keep at minimun, it is not a important list. We don't hide problem, so important things are send to d-d-a (which is the only required list for DD). Personally I like also that debian-private carries strong personal opinion (instead of public mailing list). We know each others and we know how to interpret the messages (and IMHO the conclusion are inevitable pubblic, so also not hidding problems). There is less risk of forwarding a part of conversation which could give the wrong interpretation of personal opinion. With such arguments, I think we can understand better the meaning of debian-private and that there is not so important discussion in it. (Reading your mail, people could things that debian-private is an other (just joking) cabal mailing list. ciao cate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4c0faaba.10...@debian.org
Re: The role of debian-private
On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 04:52:42PM +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote: I don't think traffic shoudl be keep at minimun, it is not a important list. We don't hide problem, so important things are send to d-d-a (which is the only required list for DD). Why would we not be better served if the people who think that there should be an exclusive club for patently idiotic discussions went off and made a separate, unofficial mailing list for that purpose? That way both groups could be happy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100609154613.ga13...@scru.org
Re: The role of debian-private
On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 03:46:13PM +, Clint Adams wrote: On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 04:52:42PM +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote: I don't think traffic shoudl be keep at minimun, it is not a important list. We don't hide problem, so important things are send to d-d-a (which is the only required list for DD). Why would we not be better served if the people who think that there should be an exclusive club for patently idiotic discussions went off and made a separate, unofficial mailing list for that purpose? That way both groups could be happy. They[1] already did. But that's secret. ;-) - Jonas [1] Or is it we? You will never know... -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The role of debian-private
Re: Enrico Zini 2010-06-09 20100609140853.ga3...@enricozini.org So, some people are advocating in favour of a private mailing list for DD chatter. The fact that that idea is being very vocally pushed by no less than two people prompts me to double check some fundamental facts about the Debian project. I think the basic problem is that some threads live longer than their original subject and tend to degrade in chatter about random other topics. New mailinglists wouldn't solve that problem as the threshold for randomness is different for everyone, but some debian-offtopic list could make make sense. (I wouldn't join it.) Too few MUAs have a button for don't bother me about new mail in this (sub-)thread. Christoph -- c...@df7cb.de | http://www.df7cb.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The role of debian-private
[Christoph Berg, 2010-06-09] Too few MUAs have a button for don't bother me about new mail in this (sub-)thread. I wish all off-topic mails were marked with OT tag in the subject, dovecot moves such mails (including the ones tagged with VAC) to a different mailbox for me. How about at least sending private replies to all senders who forgot to tag their mails, just like we do with unwanted CCs? -- Piotr Ożarowski Debian GNU/Linux Developer www.ozarowski.pl www.griffith.cc www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: 1D2F A898 58DA AF62 1786 2DF7 AEF6 F1A2 A745 7645 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100609201223.gb16...@piotro.eu
Re: The role of debian-private
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010, Piotr Ożarowski wrote: [Christoph Berg, 2010-06-09] Too few MUAs have a button for don't bother me about new mail in this (sub-)thread. I wish all off-topic mails were marked with OT tag in the subject, dovecot moves such mails (including the ones tagged with VAC) to a different mailbox for me. Anything which is off-topic for -private doesn't need to be kept private, and should be moved to another list as soon as possible.[0] People who continue to post to such threads should be asked nicely to raise the subject in an appropriate mailing list and continue the discussion there. [And if the argument against moving it to the appropriate mailing list is because no one is subscribed to that mailing list, then no one cares about that topic anyway and the flogging should stop.] Don Armstrong 0: This is one of the reasons why I wish we had gone to compulsory declassification of -private for non-VAC mails, with the onus on people who want a thread to remain private to put forward the effort to redact the messages. -- It has always been Debian's philosophy in the past to stick to what makes sense, regardless of what crack the rest of the universe is smoking. -- Andrew Suffield in 20030403211305.gd29...@doc.ic.ac.uk http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100609214120.gv4...@teltox.donarmstrong.com
Re: Xbox 360 and Airsoft Contest
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