Re: QTS ( was Re: user support - Shapado instance for Debian)
On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 11:03:42PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
Lars Wirzenius l...@liw.fi wrote:
ask.debian.net is not taking anything away from you. You can ignore it
the way you ignore Debian web forums, for example. ask.debian.net is not
there to replace mailing lists, it is there to add to them, for those
who want to use it.
AOL.
It makes us look bad if there are bad answers or no answers there.
ask.debian.net seems unconnected to the lists - it adds nothing to them
and that's disappointing.
I wonder if you forget a at least for me in the last sentence or not.
It's a triviality that, for the mail only user, ask.d.n adds
nothing. But it adds a lot for the web user. Luckily, it also gets
nothing away from the mail only users—as Lars commented above—since I'm
confident not a single mail only user will move from a mailing list to a
web-based system like ask.d.n.
[ Interestingly enough, I find that it adds something for people like
me. I've never been into user-support for Debian up to now, simply
because subscribing to a mailing list like debian-user is a commitment
I find too high in terms of traffic, even if I divert it away to a
separate mailbox. On the other hand, I can't stand web forums. ask.d.n
offers me a nice way in-between as I can subscribe to RSS feeds and
easily ignore what I don't care about, without committing too much to
the medium. Net result: I've answered a couple of questions on
ask.d.n, questions who I would have never answered on debian-user or
forums.d.n. ]
But all in all, it's just about choice. Here we just have a couple of
people (who, by the way, are from the broader Debian community: I'm the
only DD among the current admins and I've hardly done anything more than
setting up the d.n DNS entry) who wanted to experiment with a new way of
providing user support.
Do-ocracy is still the main thrust in the Debian community: if there are
volunteers to set-up and maintain something like ask.d.n, it's only
*their* choice to do that. I'm sure many others are not interested into
it and that's fair enough. They can simply ignore that ask.d.n exists in
the first place as, say, I've ignored that forums.d.n has existed thus
far.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Caposella ...| ..: |.. -- C. Adams
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Re: QTS ( was Re: user support - Shapado instance for Debian)
Hi Tshepang: On Thursday 07 October 2010 19:02:39 Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 18:13, Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: [...] You ask a question, and someone answers. If you find the answer useful, you vote it as correct, and the answerer gets points for that. You also get email notifications if you so wish if you got a new answer. Go have a look and see (ask.debian.net). It's quite a good idea. That's knowledge by consensus. How it deals with nonsenses? I.e.: Q: I downloaded a script from the Internet and I can't execute it. A: cd ~ chmod -R a+x Hey, it works! I think I should mod up this guy. It's not a theoretical scenario: I visit Ubuntu forums from time to time and there's an ashtounding number of answers in the line of my previous example. Cheers. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201010081318.47399.jesus.nava...@undominio.net
Re: QTS ( was Re: user support - Shapado instance for Debian)
Hi, Stefano: On Friday 08 October 2010 10:22:24 Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 11:03:42PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: Lars Wirzenius l...@liw.fi wrote: ask.debian.net is not taking anything away from you. You can ignore it the way you ignore Debian web forums, for example. ask.debian.net is not there to replace mailing lists, it is there to add to them, for those who want to use it. AOL. It makes us look bad if there are bad answers or no answers there. ask.debian.net seems unconnected to the lists - it adds nothing to them and that's disappointing. I wonder if you forget a at least for me in the last sentence or not. It's a triviality that, for the mail only user, ask.d.n adds nothing. But it adds a lot for the web user. Does it? With regards to any assymetric relationship, benefit is in finding common grounds. What I mean is, think of an extreme scenario, one where only newbies asking for help visit, say, a web forum with no expert over there. This extreme case would be worse than no help at all, since it would be bound to rise both cargo cult (I saw once a so called expert and he did something like this, though I don't know why, I know it worked) and bad practices (think of ten year old children explaining one another how babies are made). I for one would want an expert coming to my workplace instead of me, do for free my stuff and allow me to stay at home, but I know that won't work: if I want the expert advice I should go where the expert is, not the other way around. And for a utilitary/communitary point of view is better to cattle all the experts on a single place, even if it's not the best one, than split them away (I already explained my point of view about that in a previous message). Luckily, it also gets nothing away from the mail only users—as Lars commented above—since I'm confident not a single mail only user will move from a mailing list to a web-based system like ask.d.n. Not my experience. I did great use of NNTP and I still find it lightyears beyond anything else, including mail lists. But communities are basically expressions of the network effect, so here I am using a mail list. More on that: due to the popularity of web forums you end up with a lot of projects that rely *only* on them, even for things like announcing new versions or, even worse, having a mail list which is of no use but misleading people (since it's not used by the developers themselves). Do-ocracy is still the main thrust in the Debian community Do-ocracy is a great thing, probably the best way to drive achievements, but it's not free of problems, the most obvious one being that there's nothing within do-ocracy that ables the system to avoid self-destructive practices. As an extreme and crazy example, taking a gun and start firing people down is a meritable action from the sole do-ocracy point of view, while telling do not do that is not. Cheers. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201010081339.20724.jesus.nava...@undominio.net
Re: QTS ( was Re: user support - Shapado instance for Debian)
On Fri, Oct 08, 2010 at 01:39:20PM +0200, Jesús M. Navarro wrote:
Do-ocracy is a great thing, probably the best way to drive achievements, but
it's not free of problems,
That's correct. And that's why Debian is not a pure do-ocracy. Rather,
it's a society (which we call Project) in which do-ocracy can be
corrected via democracy. Please check the Debian Constitution for the
actual mechanisms you can use to trigger Debian democracy. A way in
between the two is trying to convince who is doing something to stop
doing that, but the default while you try, is that the thing they are
doing stays there.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Caposella ...| ..: |.. -- C. Adams
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Re: QTS ( was Re: user support - Shapado instance for Debian)
2010/10/8 Jesús M. Navarro jesus.nava...@undominio.net: Hi Tshepang: On Thursday 07 October 2010 19:02:39 Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 18:13, Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: [...] You ask a question, and someone answers. If you find the answer useful, you vote it as correct, and the answerer gets points for that. You also get email notifications if you so wish if you got a new answer. Go have a look and see (ask.debian.net). It's quite a good idea. That's knowledge by consensus. How it deals with nonsenses? I.e.: Q: I downloaded a script from the Internet and I can't execute it. A: cd ~ chmod -R a+x Hey, it works! I think I should mod up this guy. It's not a theoretical scenario: I visit Ubuntu forums from time to time and there's an ashtounding number of answers in the line of my previous example. And how does a mailing list get rid of that problem? Is it because there's more experts there? By the way, moderators exist to reduce such problems, and DPL is one of them. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlkti=aryabfn+vqfiiqhxe+yxxd_hzuedyjikfa...@mail.gmail.com
Re: QTS ( was Re: user support - Shapado instance for Debian)
I am going to be quite blunt. Please be forewarned. On pe, 2010-10-08 at 13:39 +0200, Jesús M. Navarro wrote: Does it? With regards to any assymetric relationship, benefit is in finding common grounds. What I mean is, think of an extreme scenario, one where only newbies asking for help visit, say, a web forum with no expert over there. This extreme case would be worse than no help at all, since it would be bound to rise both cargo cult (I saw once a so called expert and he did something like this, though I don't know why, I know it worked) and bad practices (think of ten year old children explaining one another how babies are made). It is, indeed, entirely possible that an experiment in making the Debian community function better is not going to be successful. I don't know if the ask.debian.net site will be successful or not. It might fail, it might not. If it doesn't fail outright, it might still not be a good addition to the Debian ecosystem. Nobody knows that either. Yet. It is, however, a really bad idea to suggest experimentation should not be attempted because it might fail. The failure mode here is not catastrophic; there is no need to be excessively cautious. Painting doomsday images is uncalled for. This is stop energy, pure and simple. http://www.userland.com/whatIsStopEnergy This behavior pattern is one of the reasons why Debian moves less slowly than it could. We need to have room to experiment, and it needs to be OK to fail. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1286542005.2755.147.ca...@havelock
Re: QTS ( was Re: user support - Shapado instance for Debian)
Lars Wirzenius l...@liw.fi wrote: I am going to be quite blunt. Please be forewarned. Likewise. It is, however, a really bad idea to suggest experimentation should not be attempted because it might fail. The failure mode here is not catastrophic; there is no need to be excessively cautious. Painting doomsday images is uncalled for. I agree with that. Enterprise is good and nice to see. However, equally, we should not lie and all say the emperor's new clothes are fabulous if they aren't. Some people seem concerned that ask.d.n doesn't connect to current support channels and I feel that's a legitimate concern, don't you? Looking more, it would also be very good to let disabled users know that they can use email lists instead, or log in to get rid of those evil eyesight and hearing tests (Google's reCaptcha). How do we do that? This is stop energy, pure and simple. http://www.userland.com/whatIsStopEnergy [...] Invoking Dave Winer as a support reference is the second biggest sign that an argument has been lost. Personally, the only thing I wanted ask.d.n's supporters to stop is making misleading statements like ask.debian.net is not there to replace mailing lists, it is there to add to them. As zack wrote, it is a triviality that it does not. Rather than suggesting people should shut up or making misleading statements about their concerns, I'd acknowledge the concerns, then maybe move on regardless, or consider how to address the concern if it's easy. Maybe a clear FAQ answer that ask.d.n is user-generated and any answers should be taken with care is as good as that could be, or maybe it can be hooked into existing support mailing lists somehow. I can't do it because I don't see an obvious way to subscribe to all answers. But ask.debian.net is an interesting experiment, after all. Regards, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101008143836.debce50...@nail.towers.org.uk
CD.com is for Sale
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Debian meetup at FSCONs 5-7 November 2010
*** This is sent to debian-events-eu, debian-project, leader, and is also Bcc'd to *** a bunch of people in the nordic region which I found on db.debian.org. TL;DR FSCONS is held in Gothenburg, Sweden during 5-7 november 2010. Debian meetup during FSCONS? It is an opportunity to start a Debian-Nordic group. We can probably receive some travel sponsorship for this. Hi! Since 2007 the Free Society Conference and Nordic Summit (FSCONS) is held in beatiful Gothenburg, Sweden. Debian has always had a presence there in some form, devrooms, talks etc. Last year, when there was almost a separate Debian track, some people from Sweden also tried to give a minidebconf during the conference. The interest from fellow nordic Debian people was quite low though... During DebConf10 in New York I spoke to several people from the nordic region and discussed having meetups and maybe even forming Debian-Nordic. Many of us agreed upon that having such a group would create a more vibrant and active Debian community in the nordic region. It would be an awesome way for developers to meet as well as spreading Debian and creating a platform and gateway for interested people and wannabe contributors. It seemed like the interest from fellow nordic Debian people was quite high! I think there is a great opportunity here. Also, it is really fun to meet people AFK. :-) The Debian presence at FSCONS this year basically consists of two people involved with Debian, and me giving a talk about using Git for packaging. There is of course the possibility to have a Debian meetup on the side. I think that, if some people are interested and will come, we could have a general Debian workshop at the conference for a few hours. If people want to take part in a Nordic Debian meetup at FSCONS I believe that we can receive sponsorship for it. Practical information about FSCONS http://fscons.org/practical-information Best regards, Per -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktikps3siftgx1+7zyacoh=vd26zqjnr6fpjhj...@mail.gmail.com
