Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
]] Raphael Hertzog Hi, | Are those sentences correctly representing your concerns? Are there | other concerns to add? My concern is actually more that I don't like people begging, and the flattr buttons do look like begging to me. I'd rather not be paid at all than be paid tiny amounts for work I do, and those 25€/month you're talking about is, for me, tiny amounts. If people want to say thanks, an email, a note on IRC or a beer when I meet people in real life are much more effective ways doing so than just dropping pocket change at me. A lesser concern is that people will end up associating Debian (and therefore Debian Developers) with begging, and I'd rather not be associated with such activities. I know many people don't consider asking for donations begging, but I do. Regards, -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87mxpe96vz@qurzaw.linpro.no
Re: Please draft a policy for planet.debian.org
(Dropped planet@ and leader@, who are probably not intrested in this anymore.) On to, 2010-11-11 at 20:06 -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 05:03:38PM +0100, Gerfried Fuchs wrote: * Tshepang Lekhonkhobe tshep...@gmail.com [2010-11-11 16:14:37 CET]: snippage What one does on their own blog is their own thing, what one pushes explicitly to planet.debian is a different area. Just my thoughts, Rhonda snippage So, at the moment, there are blogs with some content relating to donations that are on planet. Lars says that these posts might lead to a change in the focus wrt which packages are developed or motivation in the project. I may not have been as clear as I intended, so allow me a small clarification: I was specifically objecting to involving the Debian project in anything that has to do with money being collected and given to individuals. This was triggered by the suggestion that we put Flattr buttons on packages.debian.org pages. I'm fine with people going out and finding people who pay them to do Debian stuff. I've done paid Debian work myself. But don't get Debian itself involved in that, or much vigorous discussion will happen. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1289560393.3572.11.ca...@havelock.lan
Re: commercial spam on planet
On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 08:27:01AM +, Philip Hands wrote: How about making the planet disarm all links that point elsewhere than the same domain as the blog post that contains it? Perhaps a little too draconian? Yes, because there can be genuine reasons for doing so. E.g., when I want to post something about a picture I took, I'm not going to put that picture on my gallery site; I just don't have the bandwidth there to do so. Instead, I'll post it on flickr and include that in the blog post. And since flickr requires me to add a link to the picture page if I do that, I'll follow their terms of use and do so. Yes, that means that flickr will be able to track stuff. And? On the matter at hand: personally, I think that the current situation is not a problem. In my world view, there's a major difference between a link meant to support the author of a blog post on a voluntary basis (such as a flattr link) and an annoying animated GIF that advertises a product or website which doesn't have anything to do with the subject at hand but is shown because some computer program somewhere, based on an AI implementation that is broken by definition[1], believes it does. I am a bit annoyed by the style of Raphaël's posts, which clearly tend to be a bit commercial in nature -- not as in advertising products or similar, but advertising his blog as a medium, to be something that loads of people might be interested in. And though the flattr links don't help in alleviating that annoyance, they're certainly not the source of it. And as such, I don't think that blocking the flattr links will take away my annoyance. Note that this isn't meant to be personal; Raphaël's posts are not the only ones that annoy me, and he is one of a number of authors on Planet Debian whose posts I regularly skip, simply because their style just doesn't agree with me. But since Raphaël's example had already been mentioned in this discussion... I think it's just a matter of personal preference; and while it's a good thing to once in a while check whether the readership of Planet Debian still finds it to be a good medium, my vote currently would not be to change anything. [1] we don't have actual working AI yet, so anything that claims to be AI is broken by definition. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:24, Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no wrote: ]] Raphael Hertzog Hi, | Are those sentences correctly representing your concerns? Are there | other concerns to add? My concern is actually more that I don't like people begging, and the flattr buttons do look like begging to me. I'd rather not be paid at all than be paid tiny amounts for work I do, and those 25€/month you're talking about is, for me, tiny amounts. If people want to say thanks, an email, a note on IRC or a beer when I meet people in real life are much more effective ways doing so than just dropping pocket change at me. It's not begging in a sense that someone IS doing some work. It's more like use this thing that I produced, and if you want, you can reward me with a few cents. There simply is nothing distasteful about that. In fact, I find it courageous, considering the taboo surrounding money. OTOH, a beggar doesn't provide any service at all. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktinhhm49zaok4yf0d1+m=crbidgpow5oxxsyv...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
Hi, On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: It's not begging in a sense that someone IS doing some work. It's more like use this thing that I produced, and if you want, you can reward me with a few cents. There simply is nothing distasteful about that. In fact, I find it courageous, considering the taboo surrounding money. OTOH, a beggar doesn't provide any service at all. Tshepang, I appreciate that you like my courage and my willingness to try new things, but we're speaking of feelings that some people have. You're not going to change those by telling them they are unfounded. It's good that they are expressed (as long as they are not turned as personal attacks) so that we can take them into account and try to avoid bad feelings when possible. There are also topics where we must accept to disagree and be able to move on nevertheless because they are unrelated to our main mission of building a free operating system. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer ◈ [Flattr=20693] Follow my Debian News ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.com (English) ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.fr (Français) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101112155624.gb23...@rivendell.home.ouaza.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
]] Tshepang Lekhonkhobe | It's more like use this thing that I produced, and if you want, you | can reward me with a few cents. There simply is nothing distasteful | about that. You don't think so. I do. One of the reasons is it puts a, IMO too low value on other, similar work, so by taking petty donations for small pieces of work, you are lowering the value of my work too. Lowering the value of the work your codevelopers are doing is, IMO, rude. I realise that's not the intention of asking for money, but the effect is there. As I said, I'd rather give my time away for a useful purpose than being paid less than €1/hour, which is about what Raphael cited for what he earns off flattr. (He's posted 13 articles over the last month, each took at least two hours to write, and he's making around €25/month.) | In fact, I find it courageous, considering the taboo surrounding | money. OTOH, a beggar doesn't provide any service at all. My definition of people begging for money include charities asking for money on the street. Those charities usually provide useful services. I guess that wasn't entirely clear from my email. -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87iq028q3n@qurzaw.linpro.no
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 17:56, Raphael Hertzog hert...@debian.org wrote: Hi, On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: It's not begging in a sense that someone IS doing some work. It's more like use this thing that I produced, and if you want, you can reward me with a few cents. There simply is nothing distasteful about that. In fact, I find it courageous, considering the taboo surrounding money. OTOH, a beggar doesn't provide any service at all. Tshepang, I appreciate that you like my courage and my willingness to try new things, but we're speaking of feelings that some people have. You're not going to change those by telling them they are unfounded. It does happen at times. Many people change their minds after some discussion, but it tends to be very uncomfortable, that's why you find people searching for 'facts' that strengthen their feelings (an act of dishonesty actually, though often not conscious). It's good that they are expressed (as long as they are not turned as personal attacks) so that we can take them into account and try to avoid bad feelings when possible. Agreed. There are also topics where we must accept to disagree and be able to move on nevertheless because they are unrelated to our main mission of building a free operating system. Agreed. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktimmd-eucuqrwmmtwab5bkhl8zk5dg8zwwkew...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 18:27, Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no wrote: ]] Tshepang Lekhonkhobe | It's more like use this thing that I produced, and if you want, you | can reward me with a few cents. There simply is nothing distasteful | about that. You don't think so. I do. One of the reasons is it puts a, IMO too low value on other, similar work, so by taking petty donations for small pieces of work, you are lowering the value of my work too. Lowering the value of the work your codevelopers are doing is, IMO, rude. I realise that's not the intention of asking for money, but the effect is there. I don't understand this argument. How does it lower the value of other's work? As I said, I'd rather give my time away for a useful purpose than being paid less than €1/hour, which is about what Raphael cited for what he earns off flattr. (He's posted 13 articles over the last month, each took at least two hours to write, and he's making around €25/month.) Matter of preference, nothing more. | In fact, I find it courageous, considering the taboo surrounding | money. OTOH, a beggar doesn't provide any service at all. My definition of people begging for money include charities asking for money on the street. Those charities usually provide useful services. I guess that wasn't entirely clear from my email. So, you don't like charities asking for money? I say this because you mentioned that you don't like begging. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktik1gyzkohzdqwyn+xbra8kh6khzl7ks40eqk...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:27:08 +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: ]] Tshepang Lekhonkhobe | It's more like use this thing that I produced, and if you want, you | can reward me with a few cents. There simply is nothing distasteful | about that. You don't think so. I do. One of the reasons is it puts a, IMO too low value on other, similar work, so by taking petty donations for small pieces of work, you are lowering the value of my work too. Lowering the value of the work your codevelopers are doing is, IMO, rude. I realise that's not the intention of asking for money, but the effect is there. How can you possibly reduce the monetary value of volunteer work? Or more inquisitively, how is it even feasible to assign a price to such work in the first place? In fact, some have tried. Using a metric such as sloccount, the Debian operating system is valued at $13 billion (I forget the reference, but its out there), and yet I can get it for $0. According to your argument, all of Debian's volunteers are doing the world a major disservice in actively preventing a potential $13 billion in revenue from infusing into the economy. How cruel!? Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101112150447.cf326285.michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:24:32AM +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: ]] Raphael Hertzog Hi, | Are those sentences correctly representing your concerns? Are there | other concerns to add? My concern is actually more that I don't like people begging, and the flattr buttons do look like begging to me. I'd rather not be paid at all than be paid tiny amounts for work I do, and those 25€/month you're talking about is, for me, tiny amounts. If people want to say thanks, an email, a note on IRC or a beer when I meet people in real life are much more effective ways doing so than just dropping pocket change at me. If you looked at the cost of some computer magazines (eg. Linux Journal) and divided the cost of it by the number of pages, the cost per page would be 'tiny amounts', at least that is how I see it. So a blog post, from my perspective is about the same in value. It also brings to mind the 'apps store' model wrt price. People may pay a lot for boxed software but pay what seems like 'beggars' change (less than 3 USD) for apps. And I don't typically hear about 'app store' developers being called 'beggars'. Just my 2 euro-cents. -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux ==.| http://kevix.myopenid.com..| | : :' : The Universal OS| mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/.| | `. `' http://www.debian.org/.| http://counter.li.org [#238656]| |___`-Unless I ask to be CCd,.assume I am subscribed._| -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101112224556.ga15...@horacrux
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
]] Michael Gilbert Hi, | On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:27:08 +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: | | You don't think so. I do. One of the reasons is it puts a, IMO too | low value on other, similar work, so by taking petty donations for | small pieces of work, you are lowering the value of my work too. | Lowering the value of the work your codevelopers are doing is, IMO, | rude. I realise that's not the intention of asking for money, but | the effect is there. | | How can you possibly reduce the monetary value of volunteer work? Or | more inquisitively, how is it even feasible to assign a price to such | work in the first place? I did not write monetary value, I wrote value. By not assigning a monetary value to the work, it gets valued by its usefulness (or prettyness or whatever). Once you assign a monetary value to it, the non-monetary value gets in the background because people will use the monetary value as a proxy for its non-monetary value. Let me make a simile, which like all similes are not perfect, but might get my point across, since it seems people find it hard to understand: Assume you are helping a friend move house. They offer you €2 for the work. Would you be happy? I'd be insulted, since what they're doing is assigning a very low value on your work, rather than just saying «Thanks a lot for the help» afterwards. If they just said «Thank you», the value they put on your work and thereby how appreciated you feel will be higher. | […] According to your argument, all of Debian's volunteers are doing | the world a major disservice in actively preventing a potential $13 | billion in revenue from infusing into the economy. How cruel!? I'm not sure how you got to that conclusion at all. Also, I would believe a fair amount of the upstream (and Debian) development is done by people paid to do that work, so surely that number should be smaller. Regards, -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87aald8yyh@qurzaw.linpro.no
