Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
On Thursday 14 April 2011 23.37:16 Steffen Möller wrote: On 04/14/2011 11:28 PM, Andreas Tille wrote: On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 09:54:40AM -0700, Noah Meyerhans wrote: I think a case could be made for Debian's apt system being the original app store Yes. That's what I wanted to say in my previous mail! And because there was a mail about not accepting the term app store because repository is such a good name: I have no idea whether [...] How about Free App Store ? And what is wrong with just plain Applications? I think the whole app store thing is blown out of proportion by the marketing teams of a few companies, we do not need to join he hype on this. We offer an OS, and (my original point) we also offer applications in the same bundle. And the joke is that the user doesn't even need to download them separately from some web page, but they're bundled with the OS (meaning: either they're on the DVD with the OS, or the installation is integrated with the usual OS tools.) *That* is the story we should try to get across: you don't need to visit some app store place or whatever, but after you installed Debian, you already got all the tools you need. Python's Batteries included idea, really. cheers -- vbi -- Today is Setting Orange, the 32nd day of Discord in the YOLD 3177 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the Debian main page
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 12:06:33AM +0200, Jérôme wrote: Small Apple Apps provide 1 contents and not 1 task, this is redundant programming ( a browser for parents, a browser for children, a browser for cat...). It's like ou must use vim for editing scripts emacs for editing configs and gedit for editing latex... and pay for each! it's not the same case, it's not the traditionally Unix approach at all! Sorry, I can not buy this argument. The fact that somebody else is using a name for something what is done not properly does not mean that the name is wrong. We are also using the name Operating System and there are others who are interpreting this word the wrong way (as we think). Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110415063420.ga7...@an3as.eu
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the?Debian main page
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 08:14:47AM +0200, Adrian von Bidder wrote: And what is wrong with just plain Applications? I think the whole app store thing is blown out of proportion by the marketing teams of a few companies, we do not need to join he hype on this. I'm personally against hypes and I do not like commercial marketing strategies. But this shouldn't make us blind about the fact that it just works. Refusing to learn strategies which work is not sane. We are living in one world and if we want to be successful we need to follow some rules (whether we like them or not). Otherwise we will not leave the geeky corner. IMHO Ubuntu is doing a proper job in this field. And regarding evolvement of names: At some point in time the verb to google made its way into dictionaries. So the action to search the web using a specific search engine is used as a more general word than it was intended (and even if I do not like it personally - it is real). So why not using the name app store for a large set of applications where you can cherry pick from? If people (specifically non-geekish ones) have accepted this word, are using it and have some immediate imagination what it is - why not using it? Only because it is used in the proprietary world? Would you consider stop using English language just because the most commercial advertising is done in this language (even in non English speaking countries - and it is perfectly understood there as well)? Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110415065646.gb7...@an3as.eu
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the?Debian main page
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 08:56:46AM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote: was intended (and even if I do not like it personally - it is real). So why not using the name app store for a large set of applications where you can cherry pick from? I tried to post about it yesterday, but it doesn't seem to have been noticed: http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2011/04/msg00054.html There is already a name: AppStream. It comes with code and standards: http://distributions.freedesktop.org/wiki/AppStream It's as good as any other, and I don't see the need to invent another one. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the?Debian main page
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 09:10:47AM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote: I tried to post about it yesterday, but it doesn't seem to have been noticed: http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2011/04/msg00054.html I perfectly noticed your posting and I completely agree with your point that it should be listed on a popular place. There is already a name: AppStream. It comes with code and standards: http://distributions.freedesktop.org/wiki/AppStream It's as good as any other, and I don't see the need to invent another one. I did not understand your mail in a way to use the term AppStream in front of non-geeks to explain what Debian means. My intend was to use a commonly used word to explain what Debian is. I know that the meaning of this word is stretched a bit - but that's the fate of words sometimes ... Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110415100217.gb16...@an3as.eu
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the?Debian main page
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 11:49:14AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: To google only means to search the web using one specific service which happens to be very popular. Just as (at least in Denmark) non-geeks since long use the term Word to mean word processor even though it only means one specific word processor which happens to be very popular. I have tried fighting it in public schools where teachers are supposed to teach generic skills, not train for a particular environment (which is anyway outdated when the kids finish school). I agree that my example to google was perhaps not perfect. Probably the term Excel sheet instead of spreadsheet, or PowerPoint presentation instead of overhead presentation or something like this would have been a better example. When my brother and I - back in the dark ages when only geeks had heard of the term Linux - tried persuade some public schools to adopt use of Linux, he made an observation: Don't say that it is similar to Windows because then they will always treat it as a (cheaper) imitation of the real thing. Similar is my reasoning that we should not use a term which non-geeks have adopted as meaning members-only shop for commercial and freeware applications. I got your point. That's why I pointed out in at least two of my mails that the real thing in fact was just invented *here*. Thus I would rather try to turn around the argument: Those propriatary app stores just use what we are doing since a long time. It does not matter if Debian was here first. IMHO this does matter. As you mention yourself it is very important how our users comprehend the terms: our store do not fit the modern use of the term, so embracing it confuses and devaluates more than it helps our users in understanding what we offer them. At first I had my doubts about this. However Ben (as a native speaker) explained that this is not necessarily true. BTW, aren't there app stores that contain some free (as in beer) apps as well? We just have everything for free (and will explain the beer versus speach in the next lession). Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110415101043.gc16...@an3as.eu
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the?Debian main page
On 11-04-15 at 12:10pm, Andreas Tille wrote: On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 11:49:14AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: To google only means to search the web using one specific service which happens to be very popular. Just as (at least in Denmark) non-geeks since long use the term Word to mean word processor even though it only means one specific word processor which happens to be very popular. I have tried fighting it in public schools where teachers are supposed to teach generic skills, not train for a particular environment (which is anyway outdated when the kids finish school). I agree that my example to google was perhaps not perfect. Probably the term Excel sheet instead of spreadsheet, or PowerPoint presentation instead of overhead presentation or something like this would have been a better example. I fail to see how those other examples are any better: They too are a) popular terms but also b) describe populistic and commercial simplifications of computing tasks. When my brother and I - back in the dark ages when only geeks had heard of the term Linux - tried persuade some public schools to adopt use of Linux, he made an observation: Don't say that it is similar to Windows because then they will always treat it as a (cheaper) imitation of the real thing. Similar is my reasoning that we should not use a term which non-geeks have adopted as meaning members-only shop for commercial and freeware applications. I got your point. That's why I pointed out in at least two of my mails that the real thing in fact was just invented *here*. Thus I would rather try to turn around the argument: Those propriatary app stores just use what we are doing since a long time. I suspect I did not get my point across: With the real thing I do not mean the original thing. It does not matter if Debian was here first. IMHO this does matter. What I meant was that the historical context does not matter to those users who embrace commercial terms for generic computing tasks. When you tell your non-geeky user that this is just like iPhone or Android - we also have an app store (which is bigger, better, came first, is Free, etc. etc.) then your user will hear it as we have adopted that same cool design as Apple invented for their phones (and perhaps if you wait long enough we will also adopt other cool ideas from the powerful commercial players). It does not matter in that story telling that Debian was here first. What matters is that the foundation you chose for your story telling was that of an app store - which all modern computer users know was an invention of Apple, because it was _marketed_ as such - no matter if technically there is little invention. I am in favor of better marketing Debian. But I dislike marketing Debian using the slipstream of existing succesful marketing terms meaning (in the mass consumer market) something else than what we want it to mean. As you mention yourself it is very important how our users comprehend the terms: our store do not fit the modern use of the term, so embracing it confuses and devaluates more than it helps our users in understanding what we offer them. At first I had my doubts about this. However Ben (as a native speaker) explained that this is not necessarily true. BTW, aren't there app stores that contain some free (as in beer) apps as well? We just have everything for free (and will explain the beer versus speach in the next lession). I am perfectly aware that the core meaning of store is not necessarily tied to shopping. The combination app store is, however, in the minds of those that you want to reach with this marketing, tied to shopping. You want to hijack a succesful marketing term and use it for a different purpose (not a new purpose but its old one before it was hyped). I argue that such attempt at enlightening your users by helping them extend their definitions of computing terms will fail. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the?Debian main page
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 12:02:17PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote: There is already a name: AppStream. It comes with code and standards: http://distributions.freedesktop.org/wiki/AppStream It's as good as any other, and I don't see the need to invent another one. I did not understand your mail in a way to use the term AppStream in front of non-geeks to explain what Debian means. My intend was to use a commonly used word to explain what Debian is. I know that the meaning of this word is stretched a bit - but that's the fate of words sometimes ... Sorry, I think I misunderstood the thread, I thought you wanted to redesign the current web views of Debian packages so that it is somehow more trendy/modern, but I now realised you only want to find it a trendier/more modern name. I stand corrected. However, if after finding it a new name you'd like to keep going and add things like ratings, comments, tag clouds and whatnot, you can go back to my messages in this thread and know where to start :) Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Better visibility of what can you do with Debian on the?Debian main page
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 12:41:49PM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote: Sorry, I think I misunderstood the thread, I thought you wanted to redesign the current web views of Debian packages so that it is somehow more trendy/modern, but I now realised you only want to find it a trendier/more modern name. I stand corrected. Ahh, cool provocation. :-) I admit I changed the topic a bit - sorry for this. However, if after finding it a new name you'd like to keep going and add things like ratings, comments, tag clouds and whatnot, you can go back to my messages in this thread and know where to start :) I admit there is no reason to wait putting AppStream on the web pages nowish. The topic whether we might be able to find some apropriate way to describe Debian for mere mortals should be moved to a different thread. Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110415192737.gh16...@an3as.eu
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Re: Question au sujet des droits de devloppement basé sur debian
mokhtar_one kirjoitti: Bonjours ! Je voudrai savoir quelle sont vos droits au sujet d'un développement d'une nouvelle distribution Linux basé sur debian . Merci Avez vous deja trouve cet texte?: http://www.debian.org/social_contract.fr.html -- Tapio Lehtonen pj. Linux-Aktivaattori http://l-a.fi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4da92970.7050...@dnainternet.net
