Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 01:31:07PM +0100, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > It happens that we've got LGBT, many racial backgrounds, both biological > sexes, all gender identities, > people from many language backgrounds, people with disabilities, people of > all religious beliefs > and people who have none (should I need a pastor who is also a sysadmin, I > know exactly > who to turn to, for example), people who live in all environments up to and > including the ultra > self-sufficient types living remotely and off-grid. > > About the only political stance we've taken was a very long time ago: posts > from a Finnish neo-Nazi > were removed as a) culturally inappropriate, b) essentially entirely > irrelevant to Debian and > c) inappropriate for certain European and other countries where Nazi > propaganda is illegal. some people might see a short statement like 'we dont discriminate and accept all people' as 'better'. the idea that you dont enumerate any group and use a general term for 'all catagroies' sounds like you have won something by not leaving anyone out. But the nature of the statement is not suppose to be 'perfect' because its the enemy of the good. The general trend in technical fields is that white, middle-class, college-educated, American/European, English-speaking, cis-gendered, hetero males are going to apply 99% of the time and dont need to be reminded of these facts. So a statement should explicitly list a good mix of what we are not getting, and by 'good mix' I dont mean exhaustive. Because if you have a half-way decent one, it will lend itself to the idea that you are just darn happy to include other less-well-included folks. In fact, I like the statement the way Andrew wrote it because it is an informal, friendly and somewhat humorous approach to sounding inclusive. It doesn't sound like your talking to an HR person who is reading something prepared by a lawyer, it sounds like a cool human wrote it for other cool humans. And the idea that our statement can be edited and extended (by a patch :)) is something that most democracies dont allow, so why not add something if people want it, its not like you print these things out. And I dont think its bad to make a version that's not pefect the first time or dont write one. We modify all kinds of documents all the time. But I'm sure I'm in the minority for thinking that :) -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux ==.| http://kevix.myopenid.com..| | : :' : The Universal OS| mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/.| | `. `' http://www.debian.org/.| http://counter.li.org [#238656]| |___`-Unless I ask to be CCd,.assume I am subscribed._| Tagline, you're it! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120325234040.GA10498@horacrux
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 09:49:34AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote: > gregor herrmann writes: > > > On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 20:38:39 +0100, Enrico Zini wrote: > > > > > I can think of another thing that we care about, which I don't see > > > mentioned here: "We expect people to be constructive members of the > > > community." > > > > Agreed. > > > > And I think we are also not open to people who don't share these > > values, e.g. people with a racist, sexist, ... behaviour. > > That gets to another troubling part of the draft: Are there not some > political opinions, even some religions, that we should discriminate > against as being detrimental to the goal of a universal operating > system? > > -- > \ “Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity | > `\of the graveyard.” —Justice Roberts in 319 U.S. 624 (1943) | > _o__) | > Ben Finney It's difficult. We don't censor our mailing lists: we don't often throw people out. We are very accepting. This si the argument that comes up so very regularly when we get people from outside the project saying "Remove my name/post because I did something silly a long time ago" - it's a bit late, and all you do is draw further attention to yourself - it's archived everywhere. We don't tolerate extreme sexist/racist behaviour - but we will accept many forms of intolerant/difficult behaviour on our mailing lists. People do begin to understand the culture after a while and most people work together well. In fact, Debian is a textbook example of a self-organising society - most of us hang around here because we want to and we value Debian the operating system and Debian the Project/society/internet grouping. It happens that we've got LGBT, many racial backgrounds, both biological sexes, all gender identities, people from many language backgrounds, people with disabilities, people of all religious beliefs and people who have none (should I need a pastor who is also a sysadmin, I know exactly who to turn to, for example), people who live in all environments up to and including the ultra self-sufficient types living remotely and off-grid. About the only political stance we've taken was a very long time ago: posts from a Finnish neo-Nazi weere removed as a) culturally inappropriate, b) essentially entirely irrelevant to Debian and c) inappropriate for certain European and other countries where Nazi propaganda is illegal. Debian _sounds_ diverse and is diverse: novice users may be significantly put off by perceived technical difficulty, novice maintainers/developers/formally recognised contributors are usually Debian users with some degree of experience - but we all contribute in some way. Don't get too hung up on the statement provided that it's fairly reflective of the fact that the project seeks to be inclusive and to support the OS which is largely culture-neutral. Just my 0.2c AndyC -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120325123107.ga22...@galactic.demon.co.uk
Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
Russ Allbery wrote: > I think, rather than saying that we won't discriminate on the basis of > something like technical ability, we should instead say something along > the lines of: > > We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of > particular expertise. While much of the work of the Project is > technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the > Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome > such contributors as part of our community. http://pinterest.com/pin/244953667202151755/ :) -- .''`.The world breaks everyone, and afterward, some are : :' :strong at the broken places.- Ernest Hemingway `. `' `-Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120325071931.GB3434@aenima
