Re: Position statements short of a GR - DPL statements
Kurt Roeckx writes (Re: Position statements short of a GR - DPL statements): On Tue, Jan 08, 2013 at 04:24:16PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: If in your view formal statements from the DPL are not permitted, can you please comment on which of the following prospective web pages setting out position statements are permitted and which are also unconstitutional ? I think it all depends on what the statement says, and how it can be interpreted. For instance, if we end up with a policy on how to deal with incomming trademarks I think that would fall under 4.1.5 and would need a GR. But you could also interprete is as just a decision of the DPL, and I guess it all comes down on how you write it down. I imagine the document would provide a set of recommendations for maintainers, sponsors, ftpmasters, and so forth. Obviously it couldn't make any final decisions because it wouldn't deal with specific cases. But from a constitutional point of view I think it is be anomalous that there is any doubt about anyone's ability to write non-binding position statements on any matter. I guess I'll have to try to fix this along with the other three or four bugs which I have in my queue along with the TC supermajority bug. Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20724.655.346704.848...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
I wish you a wonderful 2013 DebConf13! (oh, and DebConf14 too)
Hi, (this mail is not as short and clear as I would have liked. But then, I also wanted to send it a week earlier and so I rather send it now then never...) So anyway: even though it's already mid January, I'd like to wish you all a very happy 2013 and a wonderful DebConf13! I really hope we will (soon) manage to form a working team again. Hopefully by having many working sub-teams! :-) And this is what I will personally try to focus on now. I'm not sure at all how, but the last three months made it clear to me that we cannot continue like this. What we will have to continue though, is to work on creating a successful DebConf13 in Le Camp! Because about a year ago, we made a decision: DebConf13 will be held in Switzerland, yay! And we knew already back then, it wouldnt be easy :-) And since the first little struggles we had in Summer 2012 (because due to local circumstances we need to commit to a difficult setting early), which then turned into the annual DebConf crisis (each DebConf has one...) I had - and have - the hope, that this is the swiss way: do things early, so also have the crisis early. So to say. And indeed and also, this is the best prepared DebConf ever: we have more experience then ever, as every year. We have (at least) ~90k CHF already collected (*), while normally seven month befor we usually have zero. We have lots of people aware of certain issues, trying to fix them. So let's rock! (*) I actually believe it's more again but enotime to check the facts. And we will need to take another decision rather soonish: where will we hold DebConf14?!! In our meeting this thursday we should at least come up with a rough timeline for this decision... Other things I think we need to push further: - small sub-teams working on specific sub-jects, ie the team which (IMO) is currently working best is the sponsorship team. (which is a small team) - further development of the chairs roles as well as the chairs performance. I think we totally failed, for example at the end of 2012 when we didnt send out the statement we had been preparing at http://piratenpad.de/ZSs7kbvMqw - but thats just the tip of the iceberg so to say. We completly failed in steering the team, which I think is part of our roles (or should be). Anyhow, these are my current wishes/thoughts for DebConf 2013, I'm sure you have others / more. See you this Thursday, at 20 UTC on #debconf-team to our next team meeting! cheers, Holger So, and about the delay in sending this mail, which I started on January 1st or 2nd: these false accusations on -project (you know who you are!) severely damaged my motivation for DebConf and Debian. I think I finally got over it somewhat, but in any case, please read http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20121213.154200.58eeb2bd.en.html which sadly wasnt posted to -project. And yes, I'm talking about the thread with the subject Insider manipulation of DC13 site selection, and apparent coverup here, starting at http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/12/msg00032.html I've deleted several comments about the very wrong thread-subject as well as the bad faith assumed and instead rather refer to http://zenhabits.net/gah/ and thank for the opportunity to learn ;-) And if you still think the horse is alive: we had an idea, discussed it, rejected it and that was it. This idea was never more than an idea, nothing happened at all. So have fun investigating it and... *roles eyes*. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201301141551.16074.hol...@layer-acht.org
Re: I wish you a wonderful 2013 DebConf13! (oh, and DebConf14 too)
On 14/01/13 15:51, Holger Levsen wrote: So, and about the delay in sending this mail, which I started on January 1st or 2nd: these false accusations on -project (you know who you are!) severely snip And yes, I'm talking about the thread with the subject Insider manipulation of DC13 site selection, and apparent coverup here, starting at http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/12/msg00032.html It is rather disturbing and disrespectful to those asking for information that people continue to belittle them and accuse them of spreading false information, while keeping the facts hidden. I would call on the DPL to finally appoint an independent audit of the circumstances and report for once and for all whether the allegations are true, false or simply misunderstood. In fairness to all involved, many of whom have put a lot of hard work into DebConf13 planning with the best of intentions, any such audit should be broad enough to look at things like whether the decision process was too fragmented (e.g. country choice and venue choice not more closely aligned) and whether this put people in such an awkward position that these antics materialised out of sheer frustration - and can the process be improved for DebConf14 and beyond. As discussed on debconf-team@ this does not mean all names and identities would have to be revealed in the audit report, as long as the person writing the report is really independent and trusted by all involved. Just to clarify - the accusations that have been made suggest that people may have gone a little bit too far in their effort to `win' their preferred venue in the face of legitimate competition. This is not a suggestion that people tried to influence the result for personal profit. Whatever the purpose, however, such machinations are very disrespectful to those who worked hard to evaluate other options with the best of intentions, and can dissuade people from contributing such efforts in future, thereby reducing the number of choices available -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50f44896.5020...@pocock.com.au
Re: I wish you a wonderful 2013 DebConf13! (oh, and DebConf14 too)
On 14/01/2013 19:04, Daniel Pocock wrote: On 14/01/13 15:51, Holger Levsen wrote: So, and about the delay in sending this mail, which I started on January 1st or 2nd: these false accusations on -project (you know who you are!) severely snip And yes, I'm talking about the thread with the subject Insider manipulation of DC13 site selection, and apparent coverup here, starting at http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/12/msg00032.html It is rather disturbing and disrespectful to those asking for information that people continue to belittle them and accuse them of spreading false information, while keeping the facts hidden. For your information, I was motivated to propose Paris as a city for Debconf 14 (or 15). However, these recent threads/attitudes broke my motivation to start anything on this subject. Sylvestre -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50f45ebe.4050...@debian.org
Re: I wish you a wonderful 2013 DebConf13! (oh, and DebConf14 too)
On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 07:04:06PM +0100, Daniel Pocock wrote: I would call on the DPL to finally appoint an independent audit of the circumstances and report for once and for all whether the allegations are true, false or simply misunderstood. I thought my position on this matter was already clear from https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/12/msg00068.html (in particular the final part of it). To answer specifically your direct request: I will not appoint any independent audit of this matter, because I don't consider we need one. In fact, I also think it will be counterproductive. If there were anything to be gained in running the process you suggest --- and I'm entirely unconvinced there is any --- the potential damages to our community would be far superior to what we could possibly gain. If you are convinced something went wrong this time, please stop looking for someone to blame, and start thinking at how to improve processes so that next time things would work better. Cheers. -- Stefano Zacchiroli . . . . . . . z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o Debian Project Leader . . . . . . @zack on identi.ca . . o o o . . . o . « the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club » signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: I wish you a wonderful 2013 DebConf13! (oh, and DebConf14 too)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 14/01/13 21:39, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 07:04:06PM +0100, Daniel Pocock wrote: I would call on the DPL to finally appoint an independent audit of the circumstances and report for once and for all whether the allegations are true, false or simply misunderstood. I thought my position on this matter was already clear from https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/12/msg00068.html (in particular the final part of it). Your position is clear and I don't think anybody is questioning it here, but that particular email doesn't address the idea of an audit To answer specifically your direct request: I will not appoint any independent audit of this matter, because I don't consider we need one. In fact, I also think it will be counterproductive. If there were anything to be gained in running the process you suggest --- and I'm entirely unconvinced there is any --- the potential damages to our community would be far superior to what we could possibly gain. This is where opinions may differ. I agree it may be disruptive, but that is the reason for getting it done quickly and independently, so everybody trusts the process. Also, the objective should be to improve the organisation and show that Debian is a champion of transparency and best practice. It is not a witch-hunt or an attack on individuals or on the venue. If anything, it would vindicate many people who have presumably done nothing wrong but been implicated by accident or by confusion (There has been speculation about who may be involved, and the wrong people have been implicated in at least two cases I'm aware of) It is also likely to vindicate those people who have today been accused of spreading false information. If you are convinced something went wrong this time, please stop looking for someone to blame, and start thinking at how to improve processes so that next time things would work better. I had already made an attempt to do that before you even sent your email, and I would be glad to see it discussed on debconf-discuss, along with any alternative proposals: http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20130114.194453.5d1fe625.en.html -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJQ9HZGAAoJEOm1uwJp1aqDAf8P/3CVklZNhhhl2jOKkWKmTEUw 13AwaMW6Ji+QWpQQWOfq3mQuSSwJPvYAWmNomWj3Ev5iOLIHk7Hddqoq459880gf ndVGalHacRb6WMqJfdhvL1nHN4hpHDjWiDEP7bhot4YUhc31HaVaXbba2cyMuWjD n6K5ZY71spJA5tyrwj23cKajxYFdyedzMuwh2awb7xSSaAAB0wEfyl9qeCnGb/Nh jK+gEe4NnywoJiHaQTWZf5XRQBCvX179Dv6PJzxqp9kEmpx8aVNJtK/wXWDxq5Pg mdxWN3pGpZVx1uESRqeATZ2tIrOr/MRCooenQiujRINzFqLVo1AlhWhdCv9EtaA3 ml+Z28teHQdjYTryAGXuLM26xeFDaC1143W86CEMLD2HMm0PGXYFZgEfOQKjw61F YG43QXfd03a4UQXS4cI/w055eJK6Zb2O9QOmHeQ+Grrsg196rvwpwa79UpdJNZWX 01XRhRfd7/QgzhAxZBo3FmD7egiyS7vT/2PL8uF/iSEfDL07iEniokkTxE+3enYm tY+G+RYAzhRNOthbn6JwsTimg/4/GWlzq27OYgFeFGex5o3QtiqEbQ4aLmfVNOVj yqygzL4UVGYWZ6gCghS1jar6X4EXcCan2hPSycsALm973nEKLfN8PcsnioRgol3N VeYRFzrF1kvjl4gjmeUA =MeOc -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50f47647.1050...@pocock.com.au
Re: [Debconf-team] I wish you a wonderful 2013 DebConf13! (oh, and DebConf14 too)
On 2013-01-14 14:51, Holger Levsen wrote: And we will need to take another decision rather soonish: where will we hold DebConf14?!! In our meeting this thursday we should at least come up with a rough timeline for this decision... I pinged the known bid teams about this recently off-list -- I would like to see some public status messages from bids, including from any bids that I don't know about yet! I was intentionally not pushing things on a DC14 decision schedule at the end of last year not only due to the DebConf13 politics but also due to the politics over Chavez's health situation making it harder than normal to assess the Venezuelan plans. We should indeed determine a rough schedule soon, though as usual we should let the dates for each stage be agreed by a conversation including the various bid teams. -- Moray -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/0411d440ac2d7d96e9b94464e8af8...@www.morayallan.com
