Re: Dealing with ITS abuse
On Thursday, April 11, 2013 23:49:18, Filipus Klutiero wrote: Hi Chris, On Saturday, April 06, 2013 19:55:08, Filipus Klutiero wrote: Hi Chris, thanks for being faithful to our project and bringing up this topic :-S Chris Knadle wrote: From the point of view of the bug reporter, the message the DD has sent (whether intended or not) is I'm not even going to dignify this with a response. *click* It's not /only/ this rudeness that's the problem, though; the bug reporter has now been handed a puzzle of convice the expert, where the expert needed to be convicned seemingly isn't willing to spend any effort in communicating, but the bug reporter does. This kind of thing therefore promotes either conflict or the bug reporter walking away in disgust, /either/ result of which is detrimental. I thus personally consider this to be the first step into the path of the Dark Side. If we could come up with a reasonable way of handling this particular problem, it would be greatly appreciated. Do you think emailing owner@bugs.d.o is a good way of dealing with this? It's not a /good/ way in absolute terms, but it's pretty much the only way for now, so I guess it's currently the best way (see https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2011/11/msg00030.html ). Uh... I don't understand. The above suggestions avoiding private email aliases; I'm not sure I understand where this fits the rudeness issues I've had in the BTS -- the bug reports where it happened are public. Maybe you can give me a better idea what you're trying to refer to. ;-) I'm not sure I understand what you're not sure to understand... but I'll try to rephrase. You were asking whether contacting ow...@bugs.debian.org is a good way of dealing with ITS abuse. Officially, reporting such abuse currently has to be done that way. As there is a single way, it's (relatively) as much a good way of dealing with problems as a bad way. In absolute terms, contacting ow...@bugs.debian.org is not a good way of dealing with any problem, as ow...@bugs.debian.org is - as indicated in https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2011/11/msg00030.html - a private email alias, with little chance of solving the issue. If that doesn't work, you can escalate the issue to project leadership as a last resort... but you'll also hit a private email alias there. Emailing anyone privately leads down the path of privatization. [I've already been down this road.] As such I think it might be better to publicly CC leadership, to invite public comment rather than private conversation, because private conversation cannot address the public problem. What I really want in this game is a penalty flag: unnecessary roughness called by the referee so that there can be a /measured response/ to the problem. Right now Debian doesn't seem to have penalty flags or even a referee, and instead the roughness has to be bad enough that the linesmen step in and eject the player for all time. This is unacceptable. I entirely agree that the solution should be public, but that doesn't mean there will be a public solution. Having any solution would already be more than I expect. That's exactly why we're openly discussing it. -- Chris -- Chris Knadle chris.kna...@coredump.us -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201304121146.01065.chris.kna...@coredump.us
Re: Dealing with ITS abuse
Chris Knadle chris.kna...@coredump.us writes: On Thursday, April 11, 2013 23:49:18, Filipus Klutiero wrote: In absolute terms, contacting ow...@bugs.debian.org is not a good way of dealing with any problem, as ow...@bugs.debian.org is - as indicated in https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2011/11/msg00030.html - a private email alias, with little chance of solving the issue. If that doesn't work, you can escalate the issue to project leadership as a last resort... but you'll also hit a private email alias there. Emailing anyone privately leads down the path of privatization. [I've already been down this road.] As such I think it might be better to publicly CC leadership, to invite public comment rather than private conversation, because private conversation cannot address the public problem. I think both of you have a very strange understanding of how human psychology works if you think public callouts are the best first step in dealing with inappropriate behavior. I also wonder what places you've worked in and what sorts of management interactions you've had if you don't believe private conversation can ever address public problems. What I really want in this game is a penalty flag: unnecessary roughness called by the referee so that there can be a /measured response/ to the problem. Right now Debian doesn't seem to have penalty flags or even a referee, and instead the roughness has to be bad enough that the linesmen step in and eject the player for all time. This is not true. However, Debian doesn't have a habit (for all the psychological reasons I mention above) of creating a public wall of shame to record places where people have been given a penalty flag. If you weren't involved in the issue, you probably didn't hear about it, and IMO that's how it should be. This is a volunteer project, so there's some limit to what effective sanction the project has available to it, and it doesn't always work. But the same is true in every workplace I've been in, even though a manager in an employer-employee relationship has many more effective sanctions available. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87hajbeivp@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Dealing with ITS abuse
On Fri, 12 Apr 2013, Russ Allbery wrote: However, Debian doesn't have a habit (for all the psychological reasons I mention above) of creating a public wall of shame to record places where people have been given a penalty flag. I've personally been remiss in my goal of creating a Debian BTS wall of excellence to record awesome bug submitters and closers and general awesomeness every month. Don Armstrong -- I leave the show floor, but not before a pack of caffeinated Jolt gum is thrust at me by a hyperactive girl screaming, Chew more! Do more! The American will to consume more and produce more personified in a stick of gum. I grab it. -- Chad Dickerson http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130412184805.gi4...@rzlab.ucr.edu
Re: Dealing with ITS abuse (Re: [all candidates] Removing or limiting DD rights?)
On 2013-04-06, Filipus Klutiero chea...@gmail.com wrote: It's not a /good/ way in absolute terms, but it's pretty much the only way for now, so I guess it's currently the best way (see https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2011/11/msg00030.html ). My experience with contacting owner@bugs, listmaster, wikiadmins and other people to get abusers banned or in getting them to voice in has been only good. But of course, since my interactions mostly have been to getting a certain french-canadian with a irc nick that might rhyme with 'healer', there is quite a chance that that you can have had different experiences. /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/slrnkmgoe8.fhs.nos...@sshway.ssh.pusling.com
