Re: Surveying new package maintainers about their experience of contributing to Debian
Hi Joseph, Quoting Joseph R. Justice (2013-07-19 02:09:59) [snip] Now, the survey as I've seen it (both the original draft and draft 2 following Gregor Herrmann's comments) appears to be focused primarily if not exclusively on people doing packaging work. And, as I've already noted, it might be too big a goal to try to address non-packaging work, at least at this moment and/or in this survey. (And also you probably need to figure out what sorts of non-packaging contributions typically occur; different types of contribution might call for different surveys and/or at least different questions.) It might spread the focus of the survey too thinly such that it is less helpful than it could potentially be. While I fully agree that it would be nice to acknowledge more the non-packaging work done for Debian, there is a simple reason as to why this survey is mainly about the packaging work: the data used to get the names of the survey targets is the history of package uploads to Debian. The fact is, I don't think we have much to track non-packaging contributions and contributors in the first place. Before considering adressing them the same kind of survey, we would probably need a way to identify them. Cheers, Simon signature.asc Description: signature
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Re: Surveying new package maintainers about their experience of contributing to Debian
On Vi, 19 iul 13, 15:41:27, Simon Chopin wrote: The fact is, I don't think we have much to track non-packaging contributions and contributors in the first place. Before considering adressing them the same kind of survey, we would probably need a way to identify them. For translators the Last-Translator: field in the .po files can be used. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Surveying new package maintainers about their experience of contributing to Debian
On 18/07/13 at 20:09 -0400, Joseph R. Justice wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Lucas Nussbaum lu...@debian.org wrote: I feel that, as long-time contributors, we often lack a good view of how hard new people find it to get involved in Debian. In order to better identify blockers or difficulties that prospective contributors face when trying to contribute to Debian, I would like to survey new package maintainers, identified using [0] (thanks to Asheesh Laroia for fixing the UDD upload-history gatherer!). [0] http://udd.debian.org/cgi-bin/new-maintainers.cgi I started drafting the mail below, and would welcome reviews, comments, or additional ideas of questions. I plan to send the survey on 2013-07-19 12:00 (UTC). (Note: I am not a DD, DM, or even plain old Debian contributor at this time. I'm just a bystander in the peanut gallery.) I realize the following is probably out of scope given your initial target goal (information that might aid new package maintainers), and much harder to determine / target _and_ perhaps / probably too much to try to accomplish given the short amount of time you have available (since you want to have at least some of this done by the time of the upcoming Debconf), but... IIRC, Debian's official policy is that they welcome and seek out contributors and contributions of all types, not only or merely package development and maintenance. IIRC also one can now be a DD without developing or uploading packages, or even having the capability to upload packages. (If I'm mistaken about either of these things, I apologize.) Now, I fully agree with the goals set out here as I understand them (to try to figure out ways to make it easier for people to get a start doing packaging and/or contributing to packaging). However, I would not want you to overlook or (unintentionally) ignore the other ways people do and/or potentially might contribute to Debian, and/or overlook / (unintentionally) ignore the ways or reasons people might seek DD status without having any intention or even desire to do packaging / package maintenance. I think you should seek to try to figure out ways to make it easier for people to get a start doing _other_, non-packaging, contributions to Debian as well, and/or to make it easier for them to gain non-uploading DD status if they so desire. Now, the survey as I've seen it (both the original draft and draft 2 following Gregor Herrmann's comments) appears to be focused primarily if not exclusively on people doing packaging work. And, as I've already noted, it might be too big a goal to try to address non-packaging work, at least at this moment and/or in this survey. (And also you probably need to figure out what sorts of non-packaging contributions typically occur; different types of contribution might call for different surveys and/or at least different questions.) It might spread the focus of the survey too thinly such that it is less helpful than it could potentially be. However, I think it's important that you at least make formal acknowledgement of the fact that non-packaging contributions can and do occur and are valued and welcomed, and that you desire to figure out how to make it easier for newcomers to Debian to make these sorts of contributions too and that you intend to make efforts towards that end as well as you have time and energy to do so, even tho _this_ initial survey is focused on people doing packaging work. (You might also ask people to make comments if they wish concerning any non-packaging contributions they might have made or attempted along with their packaging efforts, even tho that isn't the primary focus of _this_ survey, if only to see what you might find out and/or start to learn what other sorts of (potential) contributors might benefit from surveys of this sort.) Thanks for giving me some of your time by reading this message. I hope it's been of some use and/or interest to you. Be well, do good things. Hi Joseph, Of course, non-packaging contributions are very valued and very welcomed. But it just doesn't sound possible to address them in the same survey, where the focus is really on welcoming packaging contributions. Even the initial surveyed group would have to be different, as I plan to survey people who have recently got their first package accepted in Debian. Also, this is not the ultimate and final Debian survey on new contributors. It's an experimental attempt at trying to collect some useful data, and to do so so we have the data available at DebConf. There's place for other projects and ways to do that, of course. For example, the GreenHouse[0] project aims at building infrastructure to identify, welcome and retain new contributors. [0] https://github.com/openhatch/oh-greenhouse Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact
Re: Surveying new package maintainers about their experience of contributing to Debian
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 9:41 AM, Simon Chopin chopin.si...@gmail.comwrote: Quoting Joseph R. Justice (2013-07-19 02:09:59) Now, the survey as I've seen it (both the original draft and draft 2 following Gregor Herrmann's comments) appears to be focused primarily if not exclusively on people doing packaging work. And, as I've already noted, it might be too big a goal to try to address non-packaging work, at least at this moment and/or in this survey. (And also you probably need to figure out what sorts of non-packaging contributions typically occur; different types of contribution might call for different surveys and/or at least different questions.) It might spread the focus of the survey too thinly such that it is less helpful than it could potentially be. While I fully agree that it would be nice to acknowledge more the non-packaging work done for Debian, there is a simple reason as to why this survey is mainly about the packaging work: the data used to get the names of the survey targets is the history of package uploads to Debian. The fact is, I don't think we have much to track non-packaging contributions and contributors in the first place. Before considering adressing them the same kind of survey, we would probably need a way to identify them. Precisely. I fully agree that there is (probably) not much to track non-packaging contributions and contributors in most cases (I acknowledge Andrei Popescu's comment about how to find translators). I fully agree that finding a good way to identify non-packaging contributors (and even before that identifying and categorizing the various types of non-packaging contributions that are even possible to be made!) would be needed before trying to survey them could be done. I'm just saying that, more, that IIRC in the past non-packaging contributors had a defacto if not de jure second-class status within the Debian Project. (As evidence of this, I point to http://www.debian.org/vote/2010/vote_002 - General Resolution: Debian project members. Presumably this would not have been seen as needed if non-packaging contributors were already considered to have a first-class status within Debian.) However, efforts have been made and are continuing to be made to remedy this situation (again, I point to vote/2010/vote_002). Now, I would not want the survey proposed by Lucas Nussbaum, which again I fully think is a desirable thing to do and support, to adversely affect the efforts being made to remedy the status within Debian of non-packaging contributors. And, I do think it is not feasible for several reasons (including not least the reason you mention above) to try to address non-packaging contributors or things impeding their efforts in this survey (other than, perhaps, to suggest that if the surveyed packaging contributors have also made non-packaging contributions and wish to comment on their non-packaging contributions and on things that have enhanced or impeded those contributions that they are welcome to do so). However, I also think it's important for the survey to at least acknowledge in its prelude that there are other ways to contribute besides packaging work, and that Debian does desire to and intends in the future to improve the way that non-packaging contributors can provide their efforts to Debian, even though _this_ survey is focused on new packaging contributors and their packaging contributions. Otherwise, I fear that the survey might, at least indirectly, adversely affect the efforts being made towards improving the status of non-packaging contributors, if only because of the lack of mention and acknowledgement of non-packaging contributors and their contributions to Debian. It seems to me that things which are not spoken of or given at least lip service are deemed as being of less importance than things which _are_ spoken of or even given efforts to. Thanks for giving me some of your time by reading this message. I hope it's been of some use and/or interest to you. Be well, do good things. Joseph
Re: Surveying new package maintainers about their experience of contributing to Debian
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Lucas Nussbaum lu...@debian.org wrote Of course, non-packaging contributions are very valued and very welcomed. But it just doesn't sound possible to address them in the same survey, where the focus is really on welcoming packaging contributions. Even the initial surveyed group would have to be different, as I plan to survey people who have recently got their first package accepted in Debian. Agreed that _this_ survey probably cannot (and probably even should not) address non-packaging contributors and their contributions, not least of which is because of your chosen survey group. (I also note Simon Chopin's comment and my response to it -- the information needed to identify non-packaging contributors to be surveyed may not even be _exist_ at this time.) Also, this is not the ultimate and final Debian survey on new contributors. It's an experimental attempt at trying to collect some useful data, and to do so so we have the data available at DebConf. There's place for other projects and ways to do that, of course. For example, the GreenHouse[0] project aims at building infrastructure to identify, welcome and retain new contributors. Cool that this is not the ultimate and final Debian survey on new contributors -- not that that was likely in the first place, but it's always good to have it explicitly stated. Acknowledged and agreed that this is an experimental attempt, and that there's a short time frame in which to conduct the experiment. (And, this short time frame is also another reason why non-packaging contributors probably cannot be addressed in this survey -- there's not enough _time_ available to do them too.) I just think it would be good for the survey to explicitly acknowledge that non-packaging contributors and non-packaging contributions exist, and that Debian desires to also improve the way those efforts are made, even though _this_ survey is focused on packaging contributors or contributions. Remember that, as DPL, not only what you say, but what you _don't_ say, has influence through and beyond the Project. I wish you much luck and success with this survey, and hope it provides lots of useful information which Debian can use to improve its policies and processes. Thanks for giving me some of your time by reading this message. I hope it's been of some use and/or interest to you. Be well, do good things. Joseph
