Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
* Gunnar Wolf gw...@gwolf.org wrote: ...And I'd like us to consider this point as well: How important are CD images nowadays? Who has a CD that cannot read a DVD? You may visit some poorer people in the world. But hey, if they want CD-bread, why don't they just eat DVD-cake. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140808083733.ga10...@sge.kicks-ass.org
Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
Quoting Gunnar Wolf (2014-08-08 05:34:29) One of the reasons put forward for switching to Xfce was size on the installation images; could you (and/or debian-cd) address this? Specifically: 1) Would you want the default CD/DVD image to use a GNOME even if GNOME was unable to fit on a single image? 2) Would the GNOME team consider a less-complete DE for cases where image size is a restriction? ...And I'd like us to consider this point as well: How important are CD images nowadays? Who has a CD that cannot read a DVD? Will they be able to use on said machine a modern desktop environment as resource-demanding as, say, i3 or fvwm? The issue here really is how big is it? rather than hos many disks [of which kind] does it fit onto?. unable to fit on a single image is not only about use of said storage devices for installation, but also an indication more generally of how much data needs to be transfered on average for a usable installation. Quite a few places in the World have poor and/or expensive internet access. Larger default desktop will hurt the most in developing countries: non-techies gets discourages to use Debian at all, or when using it may apply security fixes less often. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On 08/08/14 00:29, Don Armstrong wrote: On Thu, 07 Aug 2014, Jordi Mallach wrote: Well, it's roughly that time. :) So I'd like to plainly request GNOME is reinstated as the default desktop environment for a number of reasons. One of the reasons put forward for switching to Xfce was size on the installation images; could you (and/or debian-cd) address this? Specifically: 1) Would you want the default CD/DVD image to use a GNOME even if GNOME was unable to fit on a single image? I think the first CD/DVD should have whatever we choose as the default. 2) Would the GNOME team consider a less-complete DE for cases where image size is a restriction? Yes. If there wasn't enough space, we could drop some not very important modules (e.g. a few games), try a stronger compression ratio, symlink /usr/share/doc directories... We'd need some numbers here but we could work something out. Cheers, Emilio -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53e49467.5010...@debian.org
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On jeu., 2014-08-07 at 23:57 +0200, Jordi Mallach wrote: Hi Debian, About the decision itself, as Debian Xfce main maintainer, I honestly don't really care. I don't think the default desktop matters that much on Debian (while I guess it means a lot for Ubuntu, for example). I actually think having no default desktop would be just fine, instead having the current 3-4 desktop installation media. Then anyone can pick the DE she likes. Now, about specific items: Downstream health: The number of active members in the team taking care of GNOME in Debian is around 5-10 persons, while it is 1-2 in the case of Xfce. Being the default desktop draws a lot of attention (and bug reports) that only a bigger team might have the resources to handle. Indeed. I somehow hoped that the attention brought on the initial switch would bring more developpers to the pkg-xfce team, but that failed. But I'm unsure how much people actually saw the switch, since it's only for the current beta installers for Jessie… Upstream health: While GNOME is still committed to its time-based release schedule and ships new versions every 6 months, Xfce upstream is, unfortunately, struggling a bit more to keep up with new plumbing technology. Only very recently it has regained support to suspend/hibernate via logind, or support for Bluez 5.x, for example. Same as above. Hardware: GNOME 3.12 will be one of the few desktop environments to support HiDPI displays, now very common on some laptop models. Lack of support for HiDPI means non-technical users will get an unreadable desktop by default, and no hints on how to fix that. Well, considering Xorg harcodes DPI to 96, what's the problem anyway? Also, with DPI correctly set to 140 on my Thinkpad (not really HiDPI but still more than 96), the only problems I've seen is chromium since it dropped GTK (#749239 where the URL bar font is oversized and the menu fonts are unreadable). Security: GNOME is more secure. There are no processes launched with root permissions on the user’s session. All everyday operations (package management, disk partitioning and formatting, date/time configuration…) are accomplished through PolicyKit wrappers. That doesn't make much sense to me. It seems you're considering GNOME as a distribution more than a desktop environment. That's not how Xfce sees it. It relies on stuff like PolicyKit for interactions with hardware, for example, but it doesn't really ship anything which should be run as root. The user is free to do anything she wants, though. Privacy: One of the latest focuses of GNOME development is improving privacy, and work is being done to make it easy to run GNOME applications in isolated containers, integrate Tor seamlessly in the desktop experience, better disk encryption support and other features that should make GNOME a more secure desktop environment for end users. Again, for me that's somehow unrelated to the DE, but my vision is less about having a DE which does everything and more about having it only handle things like session, window management, file management (each component appart). It's perfectly possible to use GNOME components in Xfce, and actually a lot of people do that. systemd embracing: One of the reasons to switch to Xfce was that it didn’t depend on systemd. But now that systemd is the default, that shouldn’t be a problem. Also given ConsoleKit is deprecated and dead upstream, KDE and Xfce are switching or are planning to switch to systemd/logind. Not really. We relie on PolicyKit and used to use ConsoleKit because that was somehow enforced on about everyone. Now ConsoleKit has been deprecated, and the same people now enforce libpam-systemd and logind. I'm fine with that, but the goal would be to support both systemd and sysvrc/systemd-shim systems. Many members of the Debian GNOME team feel shipping Xfce by default would mean regressing in a few key areas like, as mentioned before, accessibility, localisation and documentation of the default set of applications. We are wary about the state of some features of the current default with respect to power management and bluetooth, for example. These features are driven by, and working since day 1, by GNOME 3.12. Put it another way, Xfce (and other DEs) have been hurt by the various enforced transitions (ConsoleKit, hal/devicekit-power/upower/upower-0.99), yes. Combined with the lack of resources, that means it lays behind the people who decided those transitions. Regards, -- Yves-Alexis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
Jens Schüßler dijo [Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 10:37:33AM +0200]: ...And I'd like us to consider this point as well: How important are CD images nowadays? Who has a CD that cannot read a DVD? You may visit some poorer people in the world. But hey, if they want CD-bread, why don't they just eat DVD-cake. Both Jens and Jonas answer with this assertion. Yes, I don't know most of the developing world — But I do live in a developing country (Mexico), and know quite well several countries in Latin America (including, say, Bolivia, Ecuador and Central America, where I have been to several times, and follow their communities' work). Yes, we do have quite a bit of outdated computers. But again, I said, half-jokingly, that computers with CD readers and without a DVD reader will not have enough power for a full desktop environment, such as i3 or fvwm. The last computer I had with a CD-but-not-DVD unit was in the 2003-2005 period. And yes, many such computers are currently in use. And it would be a disservice not to provide CDs anymore. But that criteria should not be what guides our default for installation; a CD might not be able to have the full GNOME environment, but the computer using the CD would not be able to use it anyway. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140808130035.ga108...@gwolf.org
Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
Quoting Gunnar Wolf (2014-08-08 15:00:35) Jens Schüßler dijo [Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 10:37:33AM +0200]: ...And I'd like us to consider this point as well: How important are CD images nowadays? Who has a CD that cannot read a DVD? You may visit some poorer people in the world. But hey, if they want CD-bread, why don't they just eat DVD-cake. Both Jens and Jonas answer with this assertion. Yes, I don't know most of the developing world — But I do live in a developing country (Mexico), and know quite well several countries in Latin America (including, say, Bolivia, Ecuador and Central America, where I have been to several times, and follow their communities' work). Yes, we do have quite a bit of outdated computers. But again, I said, half-jokingly, that computers with CD readers and without a DVD reader will not have enough power for a full desktop environment, such as i3 or fvwm. The last computer I had with a CD-but-not-DVD unit was in the 2003-2005 period. And yes, many such computers are currently in use. And it would be a disservice not to provide CDs anymore. But that criteria should not be what guides our default for installation; a CD might not be able to have the full GNOME environment, but the computer using the CD would not be able to use it anyway. I wonder if you still missed my point: Concern is not if computers are capable of reading DVDs, but the *bandwith* burden of installing and maintaining a larger desktop versus a smaller one. We can ship only netinst images - completely drop CD and DVD and Blueray, and I still find it problematic to favor GNOME over Xfce - due to its size - which just happens to be expressed in discussions as can it fit on a single CD?. The _default_ Debian desktop is what we implicitly recommend for our non-technical users, no matter the wealth of alternative offers we have. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
Quoting Olav Vitters (2014-08-08 15:51:13) On Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 03:26:20PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: I wonder if you still missed my point: Concern is not if computers are capable of reading DVDs, but the *bandwith* burden of installing and maintaining a larger desktop versus a smaller one. This feels like shifting goalposts. The initial change to XFCE mentioned the install size and that for some countries. A reply was given specifically on this matter from someone with knowledge on various affected countries. It was mentioned that install size is not so much of a concern. Now suddenly it is about bandwidth usage? That is not what was said initially. Seems you are talking about other posts than mine. What I said initially I still stand by. Did you read that? Further, I'd like to see you provide more details on the higher bandwidth usage that GNOME apparently has vs XFCE and how much it impacts these countries. The following is on a wheezy chroot: root@bastian:/# aptitude install task-gnome-desktop The following NEW packages will be installed: [...] Need to get 370 MB of archives. After unpacking 1099 MB will be used. root@bastian:/# aptitude install task-xfce-desktop The following NEW packages will be installed: [...] Need to get 115 MB of archives. After unpacking 348 MB will be used. Desktop needing 370MB versus 115MB seems pretty significant to me. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
Jonas Smedegaard, le Fri 08 Aug 2014 16:11:58 +0200, a écrit : The following is on a wheezy chroot: root@bastian:/# aptitude install task-gnome-desktop The following NEW packages will be installed: [...] Need to get 370 MB of archives. After unpacking 1099 MB will be used. root@bastian:/# aptitude install task-xfce-desktop The following NEW packages will be installed: [...] Need to get 115 MB of archives. After unpacking 348 MB will be used. Desktop needing 370MB versus 115MB seems pretty significant to me. Actually it's 1.1GiB versus 348MiB. But that is barring the rest of the desktop. More precise measurements can be found in the installation manual, for which we also install task-desktop etc. which ends up with 3.2GiB for Gnome KDE, 2.3GiB for XFCE, 2GiB for LXDE. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140808141928.ge3...@type.bordeaux.inria.fr
Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
Gunnar Wolf writes (Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop): And yes, many such computers are currently in use. And it would be a disservice not to provide CDs anymore. But that criteria should not be what guides our default for installation; a CD might not be able to have the full GNOME environment, but the computer using the CD would not be able to use it anyway. Wouldn't such a computer be able to use xfce ? I have a computer from 2003-2005 that seems to be running xfce perfectly happily (and I have reinstalled it recently). Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21476.57043.847379.678...@chiark.greenend.org.uk
Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Fri, 08 Aug 2014 12:09:56 -0400, Michael Gilbert wrote: On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 11:52 AM, Camaleón wrote: I really (and still) like the idea of having no default desktop at all and let the users decide by themselves if they even want to get a DE when performing a DVD based installation. Including all potential DE options on the main install disc (so the user can make that choice in a no-net install) will mean a huge bandwidth increase, not to mention that probably means bluray-only. I think there's no need to make any change about the DE options for the first DVD, current ones (gnome, kde, xfce and lxde, AFAIK) are OK as long as the installation menu is adapted to ask the user which DE to install or to no install a DE at all. There already exist netinst media that solve that problem much better by including no DE packages on the media. Netinst media and other install options are not the main subject of this thread. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.08.08.16.26...@gmail.com
Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
Quoting Camaleón (2014-08-08 18:26:22) On Fri, 08 Aug 2014 12:09:56 -0400, Michael Gilbert wrote: On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 11:52 AM, Camaleón wrote: I really (and still) like the idea of having no default desktop at all and let the users decide by themselves if they even want to get a DE when performing a DVD based installation. Including all potential DE options on the main install disc (so the user can make that choice in a no-net install) will mean a huge bandwidth increase, not to mention that probably means bluray-only. I think there's no need to make any change about the DE options for the first DVD, current ones (gnome, kde, xfce and lxde, AFAIK) are OK as long as the installation menu is adapted to ask the user which DE to install or to no install a DE at all. I guess many of those who can afford a system with Blueray reader and waste bandwidth downloading an image for Blueray (which is needed for offering multiple desktops during install, I believe) likely would want a shiny desktop like GNOME or KDE. I don't expect that to be a common install media, however. There already exist netinst media that solve that problem much better by including no DE packages on the media. Netinst media and other install options are not the main subject of this thread. Wrong. This thread is about default desktop, not default desktop on CD/DVD. It is about which default we suggest for our users. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Fri, 08 Aug 2014 18:47:59 +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: Quoting Camaleón (2014-08-08 18:26:22) On Fri, 08 Aug 2014 12:09:56 -0400, Michael Gilbert wrote: On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 11:52 AM, Camaleón wrote: I really (and still) like the idea of having no default desktop at all and let the users decide by themselves if they even want to get a DE when performing a DVD based installation. Including all potential DE options on the main install disc (so the user can make that choice in a no-net install) will mean a huge bandwidth increase, not to mention that probably means bluray-only. I think there's no need to make any change about the DE options for the first DVD, current ones (gnome, kde, xfce and lxde, AFAIK) are OK as long as the installation menu is adapted to ask the user which DE to install or to no install a DE at all. I guess many of those who can afford a system with Blueray reader and waste bandwidth downloading an image for Blueray (which is needed for offering multiple desktops during install, I believe) likely would want a shiny desktop like GNOME or KDE. I don't think so. In fact, what I do is getting the first DVD ISO image and install from there, though I have a quite good Internet connection (FTTH) and manage a mixed environment with servers (no DE here), workstations and desktops computers (where I install a DE). And given the first DVD already contains four DE, I don't see any good reason to remove them, unless space is now getting a concern. Anyway, despite the DE available on there, I still think no default selection would be desiderable. I don't expect that to be a common install media, however. Neither do I. Blu-ray has been always on my not-to-buy list. There already exist netinst media that solve that problem much better by including no DE packages on the media. Netinst media and other install options are not the main subject of this thread. Wrong. This thread is about default desktop, not default desktop on CD/DVD. It is about which default we suggest for our users. AFAIK, there's only one medium (because of its size) that forces you to choose a default DE and that's DVD (and/or Blu-ray). CDs provide their own ISO for every desktop flavor so you download the desired one. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/pan.2014.08.08.17.38...@gmail.com
Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Thu, Aug 07, 2014 at 10:34:29PM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote: Well, it's roughly that time. :) So I'd like to plainly request GNOME is reinstated as the default desktop environment for a number of reasons. One of the reasons put forward for switching to Xfce was size on the installation images; could you (and/or debian-cd) address this? Specifically: 1) Would you want the default CD/DVD image to use a GNOME even if GNOME was unable to fit on a single image? 2) Would the GNOME team consider a less-complete DE for cases where image size is a restriction? ...And I'd like us to consider this point as well: How important are CD images nowadays? Who has a CD that cannot read a DVD? Will they be able to use on said machine a modern desktop environment as resource-demanding as, say, i3 or fvwm? I used to do freelance desktop support (in the US) and there are a decent number of machines that don't have DVD drives. You would be surprised how resistant people are to upgrade their machines. (Also, people give their old, less powerful machines to the small kids.) Most of these machines would work just fine with XFCE, but not GNOME. DVD drives are also less common on non-PC hardware, especially the older stuff that can be readily acquired for less than USD 1000. Also, I always carried a bootable CD with me, because about a third of machines just won't boot off a USB flash drive for any reason. The BIOS says they will, but it's a lie. I've even owned one of these machines (a fairly recent amd64 box). I would recommend keeping CD images around. -- brian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US +1 832 623 2791 | http://www.crustytoothpaste.net/~bmc | My opinion only OpenPGP: RSA v4 4096b: 88AC E9B2 9196 305B A994 7552 F1BA 225C 0223 B187 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
Hi, I don't know if it's wise to include that by default, but I remember that today, MATE is quite accessible. Not perfet, yes, but slight, customizable, and with Compiz which can run on it with all its features. Gnome is heavy for some machines and much less customizable in colours, objects size, etc. So I think the question should be considered. All the more as if it is, it will support its maintainance upstream and in Debian, to improve things. Here, it's much slighter than GNOME. However, indeed, I'm not sure XFCE is the good solution, likely not for a11y anyway. Regards, Le 08/08/2014 17:23, Jonas Smedegaard a écrit : Quoting Samuel Thibault (2014-08-08 16:19:28) Jonas Smedegaard, le Fri 08 Aug 2014 16:11:58 +0200, a écrit : The following is on a wheezy chroot: root@bastian:/# aptitude install task-gnome-desktop The following NEW packages will be installed: [...] Need to get 370 MB of archives. After unpacking 1099 MB will be used. root@bastian:/# aptitude install task-xfce-desktop The following NEW packages will be installed: [...] Need to get 115 MB of archives. After unpacking 348 MB will be used. Desktop needing 370MB versus 115MB seems pretty significant to me. Actually it's 1.1GiB versus 348MiB. But that is barring the rest of the desktop. If the concern was e.g. price of harddisk to install on, then the finally used disk space be the measure. ...but the concern I raised is bandwidth for packages to be installed - which over-simplified can be expressed as does it fit on a CD?. Numbers for Sid (in a chroot for task package, not for a full install), is 389MB versus 101MB. More precise measurements can be found in the installation manual, for which we also install task-desktop etc. which ends up with 3.2GiB for Gnome KDE, 2.3GiB for XFCE, 2GiB for LXDE. I believe (but haven't checked) that installation manual don't document bandwidth needs - in the past users could simply assume a single desktop fits on first CD. - Jonas -- Jean-Philippe MENGUAL accelibreinfo, votre partenaire en informatique adaptée aux déficients visuels Mail: te...@accelibreinfo.eu Site Web: http://www.accelibreinfo.eu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53e5060e.9080...@free.fr
Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Thu, Aug 07, 2014 at 03:29:26PM -0700, Don Armstrong wrote: Specifically: 1) Would you want the default CD/DVD image to use a GNOME even if GNOME was unable to fit on a single image? 2) Would the GNOME team consider a less-complete DE for cases where image size is a restriction? How hard/sane would it be to have XFCE as default on installation CDs and Gnome3 as default on installation DVDs or netinst CDs? That way, people with disconnected, old computer get XFCE which has a higher chance of working there. People with computers that either have a DVD or a fast network connection, would instead default to the heavier/more-feature-complete desktop. Enrico either way, I use lxde :P -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
