Re: Thanks Russ for all your hard work
Hi! On 2014-11-14 at 07:41 (CET), Andreas Tille wrote: > Hi Russ, > > I just feel the need to express my deep thanks to all your work in > Debian specifically in the endless systemd debate. While I'm personally > very neutral and just expect my computer to boot (which it does with > systemd) I really appreciate all your sensible and always patient mails > on the mailing list in situations where possibly every other person > would have become crazy. I never have observed a person like you who is > constantly able to write kind and very nicely readable mails. I admit I > stopped to read close to everybody else mails in these endless threads > but just read your postings. > > If I had any power to nominate somebody I would nominate you as the > White Knight on the battlefield of flamewars. > > Thanks a lot and keep on with this great work +1 -- Matteo F. Vescovi || Debian Developer GnuPG KeyID: 4096R/0x8062398983B2CF7A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Thanks Russ for all your hard work
Hi Russ, I just feel the need to express my deep thanks to all your work in Debian specifically in the endless systemd debate. While I'm personally very neutral and just expect my computer to boot (which it does with systemd) I really appreciate all your sensible and always patient mails on the mailing list in situations where possibly every other person would have become crazy. I never have observed a person like you who is constantly able to write kind and very nicely readable mails. I admit I stopped to read close to everybody else mails in these endless threads but just read your postings. If I had any power to nominate somebody I would nominate you as the White Knight on the battlefield of flamewars. Thanks a lot and keep on with this great work Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141114064119.ga24...@an3as.eu
Re: Being part of a community and behaving
Gunnar Wolf wrote: Ian Jackson dijo [Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 04:53:30PM +]: The correct reaction to people not adopting your software is to make your software better, not to conduct an aggressive marketing campaign aimed at persuading upstreams to built it in as a dependency, nor to overrun distro mailing lists with advocacy messages. Ian, You are one of the people I most respect and admire in this project. And that, believe me, is no small feat. Your contributions, socially and technically, are tremendous. But the style of communication you have taken on this debate is very toxic and very not constructive. Please, *please* consider not sending messages that have as their only goal to state again what has been stated so many times. Repeating them will not make them more palatable. I don't know (nor really care) whether this could be put formally as a complaint regarding CoC abuse. But please, human to human: You have made your point. We are halfway through a GR on the topic. Let it rest. We don't need more poison in the lists. Personally, I think Ian's statement is spot on. It states very clearly what is so very wrong with what's happening with systemd, Debian, and large chunks of the Linux ecosystem. And perhaps why some (many?) of us are actively looking at alternatives. The stream of negative reactions is even more revealing of the state to which the community has devolved. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546588da.6020...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Being part of a community and behaving
Ian Jackson dijo [Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 04:53:30PM +]: > The correct reaction to people not adopting your software is to make > your software better, not to conduct an aggressive marketing campaign > aimed at persuading upstreams to built it in as a dependency, nor to > overrun distro mailing lists with advocacy messages. Ian, You are one of the people I most respect and admire in this project. And that, believe me, is no small feat. Your contributions, socially and technically, are tremendous. But the style of communication you have taken on this debate is very toxic and very not constructive. Please, *please* consider not sending messages that have as their only goal to state again what has been stated so many times. Repeating them will not make them more palatable. I don't know (nor really care) whether this could be put formally as a complaint regarding CoC abuse. But please, human to human: You have made your point. We are halfway through a GR on the topic. Let it rest. We don't need more poison in the lists. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Being part of a community and behaving
On 11/13/2014 at 12:29 PM, Olav Vitters wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 04:53:30PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
>
>> The correct reaction to people not adopting your software is to
>> make your software better, not to conduct an aggressive marketing
>> campaign aimed at persuading upstreams to built it in as a
>> dependency, nor to overrun distro mailing lists with advocacy
>> messages.
>
> Instead of assuming that things are done in bad faith, be positive.
> People are reaching out to communicate. Any problem you want discuss
> you can. It should be applauded that people are communicating
> directly. You seem to assume bad faith; e.g. the suggestion that the
> main reason systemd is because of marketing, not because it actually
> fulfills needs. Suggest to make the effort to grasp a bit more into
> why things happened the way that they did while assuming the
> decisions were taken with the best intention ("Assume people mean
> well").
>
> FWIW, Lennart did proposed a hard dependency on systemd to GNOME.
> Indicates to me that he's very excited as a maintainer. GNOME said
> "no".
I find that interesting.
I recall being told that, while it is technically possible to compile
and use GNOME without systemd - specifically, without libpam-systemd and
its backend infrastructure - doing so now loses so much functionality
that the result is barely (if at all) worth using. (This is a
paraphrase.)
Is that not correct?
If it is correct, do you not consider that a "hard dependency"?
How would a GNOME with the proposed a "hard dependency" on systemd be
different, and/or behave differently in the absence of systemd, from the
one that currently exists?
(Feel free to point me to resources elsewhere on this subject, if such
exist, rather than responding in detail on-list.)
--
The Wanderer
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
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Re: debian-boston-soc
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 4:52 AM, Sam Hartman wrote: > Apologies for the debian-boston-soc mailing list going away. I changed > infrastructure a couple of years ago and it made it a bit more difficult > to host mailing lists. > I'd be happy if someone else wanted to run a Debian Boston mailing list, > and I'd be willing to make the effort to bring the list back if people > would use it. > It didn't get a lot of traffic. Recently lists.debian.org has been adding Debian user group lists, for eg: https://lists.debian.org/debian-dug-in/ https://lists.debian.org/debian-dug-by/ https://lists.debian.org/debian-dug-ie/ https://lists.debian.org/debian-dug-mx/ https://lists.debian.org/debian-dug-nyc/ https://lists.debian.org/debian-dug-quebec/ I'd moving the archives to lists.debian.org and if there is enough interest, opening a list too. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAKTje6HrYs_h=HSDTzJBv3RZgXcJ0zLZEQCo4yg+-nYSKw=u...@mail.gmail.com
Re: debian-boston-soc
Sam Hartman wrote: Apologies for the debian-boston-soc mailing list going away. I changed infrastructure a couple of years ago and it made it a bit more difficult to host mailing lists. I'd be happy if someone else wanted to run a Debian Boston mailing list, and I'd be willing to make the effort to bring the list back if people would use it. It didn't get a lot of traffic. --Sam I have a list server (sympa) that's readily available to host a list - if there's interest. Were there many folks on the list when it was shut down? Would it make sense to post to debian-users and/or debian-devel to assess interest? Miles Fidelman p.s. I should add the caveat that, in a couple of years, I may no longer be a Debian user, depending on the outcome of the systemd battles - though happy to continue to support a list (I still support a list for Boston Latin parents - even though my daughter is long graduated). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54654f82.4070...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Reminder: Removing < 2048 bit keys from the Debian keyrings
Hi Brian, On 13.11.2014 23:43, Brian Nelson wrote: > I'll show them some identification to prove I'm > a Brian Michael Nelson which, since the other Brian Michael Nelson in > the project retired, means I'm probably the one still active. I'll be > able to submit a stronger key, but what exactly has been gained? for starters: A key that can't be forged with a reasonable number of CPU cycles. This is not about not trusting you, but about others that may use a weak key like your current one as attack vector to do harm to Debian. -- with kind regards, Arno Töll IRC: daemonkeeper on Freenode/OFTC GnuPG Key-ID: 0x9D80F36D signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Reminder: Removing < 2048 bit keys from the Debian keyrings
Gunnar Wolf writes: > Brian Nelson dijo [Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 02:27:59PM -0500]: >> Well I have a new key but it doesn't have any signatures on it other >> than my own, and I haven't encountered another developer in years to >> have it signed. I've been listed on >> https://wiki.debian.org/Keysigning/Offers for years (two locations in >> two different U.S. states, even) but have never been contacted for a >> keysigning. >> >> I'm not overly far from other developers--Boston is about a 2 hour drive >> away--but with general busyness from having a family, I haven't found a >> chance to try to meet people in Boston. The boston-debian-soc mailing >> list being down for years doesn't help, either. >> >> It's not a very interesting story. It's more about being inconvenient >> than insurmountable. I've just been hoping some opportunity would >> present itself for an easy keysigning, but that hasn't happen yet. > > Right :) I didn't want to out you as "a guy who has a minor problem > getting his key signed". But you asked us to ask you why. > > And it boils down to being motivated to do it. I hope this thread > motivates you. In the worst case, I hope most people whose keys are > retired from the active keyring next January will be motivated by the > need (or desire?) to do Debian work without requiring a sponsor. But > each person has their own story. I'd like to retain an active key in Debian. However, I already have a well-connected key from when I was younger and my time was freely available and travel was easy. Those are no longer true, but I'm supposed to start over from scratch anyway and spend a better part of a day traveling to Boston to meet developers I've most likely never interacted with before. I'll show them some identification to prove I'm a Brian Michael Nelson which, since the other Brian Michael Nelson in the project retired, means I'm probably the one still active. I'll be able to submit a stronger key, but what exactly has been gained? It feels like a waste of time and effort, so that's where my motivation is lacking. I've met and exchanged key signings with a good portion of the active developers (including you) with my old key, and it just seems like it would be a whole lot more meaningful and a more productive use of time to make use of that instead of yet another silly government ID exchange dance. -- Captain Logic is not steering this tugboat. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87ppcqsovq@bignachos.net
Re: Reminder: Removing < 2048 bit keys from the Debian keyrings
Brian Nelson dijo [Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 02:27:59PM -0500]: > Well I have a new key but it doesn't have any signatures on it other > than my own, and I haven't encountered another developer in years to > have it signed. I've been listed on > https://wiki.debian.org/Keysigning/Offers for years (two locations in > two different U.S. states, even) but have never been contacted for a > keysigning. > > I'm not overly far from other developers--Boston is about a 2 hour drive > away--but with general busyness from having a family, I haven't found a > chance to try to meet people in Boston. The boston-debian-soc mailing > list being down for years doesn't help, either. > > It's not a very interesting story. It's more about being inconvenient > than insurmountable. I've just been hoping some opportunity would > present itself for an easy keysigning, but that hasn't happen yet. Right :) I didn't want to out you as "a guy who has a minor problem getting his key signed". But you asked us to ask you why. And it boils down to being motivated to do it. I hope this thread motivates you. In the worst case, I hope most people whose keys are retired from the active keyring next January will be motivated by the need (or desire?) to do Debian work without requiring a sponsor. But each person has their own story. If you didn't explain your situation earlier on as a hard case (and we do have some), it's not up to us to get into personal details. Only to let you know that actions will be taken! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141113211533.ga91...@gwolf.org
debian-boston-soc
Apologies for the debian-boston-soc mailing list going away. I changed infrastructure a couple of years ago and it made it a bit more difficult to host mailing lists. I'd be happy if someone else wanted to run a Debian Boston mailing list, and I'd be willing to make the effort to bring the list back if people would use it. It didn't get a lot of traffic. --Sam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/0149aaedc46f-fce6e4cb-71ec-49d6-b2e6-4848a148df5e-000...@email.amazonses.com
Re: Reminder: Removing < 2048 bit keys from the Debian keyrings
Gunnar Wolf writes: > Brian Nelson dijo [Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 05:09:02PM -0500]: >> >> Wouldn't it make more sense to ask these people privately what is getting >> >> in >> >> the way of a switch to a stronger key? >> > >> > They have been asked. Repeatedly. >> >> I haven't been asked. I've received a few reminders that I need a new >> key with signatures, but I haven't been asked why I haven't submitted a >> new key yet. > > Right. Precise definitions. You are right — Although we have been > slowly but steadily insisting (at least since 2010, when we announced > at DebConf10 we had removed the last 17 remaining PGPv3 keys) that > 1024D keys were no longer considered long-term trusty and urged > everybody to start updating to a >=2K key. > > But, as you are asking, you got me curious :) Why haven't you started > migrating to a new key? Well I have a new key but it doesn't have any signatures on it other than my own, and I haven't encountered another developer in years to have it signed. I've been listed on https://wiki.debian.org/Keysigning/Offers for years (two locations in two different U.S. states, even) but have never been contacted for a keysigning. I'm not overly far from other developers--Boston is about a 2 hour drive away--but with general busyness from having a family, I haven't found a chance to try to meet people in Boston. The boston-debian-soc mailing list being down for years doesn't help, either. It's not a very interesting story. It's more about being inconvenient than insurmountable. I've just been hoping some opportunity would present itself for an easy keysigning, but that hasn't happen yet. -- Captain Logic is not steering this tugboat. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/874mu2uchs@bignachos.net
Re: Being part of a community and behaving
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 05:32:34PM +, Ian Jackson wrote: > > Could you please keep this whole mess on the mailing lists where it > > came from? I (and I believe others) have unsubscribed from -devel and > > -vote because we were fed up with the endless debate around the whole > > systemd issue. Please don't make us also unsubscribe from -project ? > Sorry. I meant to move it to -vote, but got the wrong list. It > doesn't belong on -devel. It doesn't belong to -vote either. -- WBR, wRAR signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Being part of a community and behaving
Ian Jackson writes:
> Russ Allbery writes ("Re: Being part of a community and behaving"):
>> We waited two years, during which positions hardened, people got
>> angrier and angrier, and there were increasing demands to force the
>> issue. Serious question: how much longer were we realistically going
>> to wait with zero sign of forward progress?
> The correct reaction to people not adopting your software is to make
> your software better, not to conduct an aggressive marketing campaign
> aimed at persuading upstreams to built it in as a dependency, nor to
> overrun distro mailing lists with advocacy messages.
The traffic on Debian mailing lists that I'm talking about was and is from
people inside the Debian project who believe, as a matter of technical
judgement, that systemd is better, and want their favorite distribution to
use it for exactly the same reasons that you wanted your favorite
distribution to use upstart. I find it really quite irritating, and
disturbing, that you are belittling other people's right to hold and
advocate an opinion that differs from yours, and trying to dismiss the
opinions that they have arrived at with just as much thought and care as
you as some sort of artificial, underhanded, or deceptive campaign.
Please consider the possibility, just for a moment, that what you see as a
"marketing campaign" is simple enthusiasm of technical people for a
technical project that they find delightful and enjoyable to use, and that
they would like to see broadly adopted because it solves problems for
them.
But putting that aside for the moment, I'm talking about what *Debian*
should do. Regardless of what theories you have about what systemd
upstream may or may not do, we, as a project, don't have control over
that, nor should we. We only have control over our own behavior. So the
fact remains: there was a heated, antagonistic project argument over two
courses of direction, and every attempt to find some way to maneuver
around that ran into fundamental conflicts of either technical judgement
or foundational principles. So what should we, as a project, do in that
situation?
Please, when trying to answer this question, try to extend to all sides of
this debate the respect of believing they hold their opinions as deeply as
you hold yours. For example, I consider the GR that you are currently
proposing to be such a monumental violation of fundamental principles of
Debian that, should it pass, I will have to seriously consider whether or
not I want to continue to be part of this project. I realize that this
stance is probably baffling to you; please understand that I find your
stance equally baffling. That is *exactly* the problem: we are at
loggerheads, and yet the project still needs to make a decision. Because
not making a decision is *also* a decision that will *also* make some
people feel fundamentally unwelcome, or like Debian is acting contrary to
the principles they thought they joined the project for.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)
Re: Being part of a community and behaving
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 04:53:30PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> The correct reaction to people not adopting your software is to make
> your software better, not to conduct an aggressive marketing campaign
> aimed at persuading upstreams to built it in as a dependency, nor to
> overrun distro mailing lists with advocacy messages.
Instead of assuming that things are done in bad faith, be positive.
People are reaching out to communicate. Any problem you want discuss you
can. It should be applauded that people are communicating directly. You
seem to assume bad faith; e.g. the suggestion that the main reason
systemd is because of marketing, not because it actually fulfills needs.
Suggest to make the effort to grasp a bit more into why things happened
the way that they did while assuming the decisions were taken with the
best intention ("Assume people mean well").
FWIW, Lennart did proposed a hard dependency on systemd to GNOME.
Indicates to me that he's very excited as a maintainer. GNOME said "no".
--
Regards,
Olav
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Re: Reminder: Removing < 2048 bit keys from the Debian keyrings
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 06:33:28PM +0100, Michael Banck wrote: > AIUI, you need to have at least one(?) additional signature on your new > 2048+ RSA key on top of your old DSA key, correct? I meant "on top of the signature from your old DSA key". Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141113173447.gn4...@raptor.chemicalconnection.dyndns.org
Re: Being part of a community and behaving
Ian Jackson writes:
> Russ Allbery writes ("Re: Being part of a community and behaving"):
>> We waited two years, during which positions hardened, people got angrier
>> and angrier, and there were increasing demands to force the issue.
>> Serious question: how much longer were we realistically going to wait with
>> zero sign of forward progress?
>
> The correct reaction to people not adopting your software is to make
> your software better, not to conduct an aggressive marketing campaign
> aimed at persuading upstreams to built it in as a dependency, nor to
> overrun distro mailing lists with advocacy messages.
Has anyone seen the Bursar's dried frog pills?
He seems to be having another of his turns.
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Re: Reminder: Removing < 2048 bit keys from the Debian keyrings
On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 02:35:55PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote: > Henrique de Moraes Holschuh dijo [Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 07:11:14PM -0200]: > > On Sat, 08 Nov 2014, Richard Hartmann wrote: > > > Interpretation is in the eye of the bee holder, but I am considering > > > to attach this list to my weekly bug report; mainly because I can. > > > > Wouldn't it make more sense to ask these people privately what is getting in > > the way of a switch to a stronger key? > > They have been asked. Repeatedly. AIUI, you need to have at least one(?) additional signature on your new 2048+ RSA key on top of your old DSA key, correct? If so, did you consider relaxing this requirement for the rollover? I.e. maybe having 2048 RSA keys signed by (only) old 1024 DSA keys in the keyring is better than having no key at all for a particular DD? Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141113173328.gm4...@raptor.chemicalconnection.dyndns.org
Re: Being part of a community and behaving
Simon Chopin writes ("Re: Being part of a community and behaving"):
> Could you please keep this whole mess on the mailing lists where it
> came from? I (and I believe others) have unsubscribed from -devel and
> -vote because we were fed up with the endless debate around the whole
> systemd issue. Please don't make us also unsubscribe from -project ?
Sorry. I meant to move it to -vote, but got the wrong list. It
doesn't belong on -devel.
Ian.
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Re: Being part of a community and behaving
Hi,
Could you please keep this whole mess on the mailing lists where it
came from? I (and I believe others) have unsubscribed from -devel and
-vote because we were fed up with the endless debate around the whole
systemd issue. Please don't make us also unsubscribe from -project ?
Cheers,
Simon
Quoting Ian Jackson (2014-11-13 17:53:30)
> Russ Allbery writes ("Re: Being part of a community and behaving"):
> > We waited two years, during which positions hardened, people got angrier
> > and angrier, and there were increasing demands to force the issue.
> > Serious question: how much longer were we realistically going to wait with
> > zero sign of forward progress?
>
> The correct reaction to people not adopting your software is to make
> your software better, not to conduct an aggressive marketing campaign
> aimed at persuading upstreams to built it in as a dependency, nor to
> overrun distro mailing lists with advocacy messages.
>
> Ian.
>
>
> --
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> Archive:
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>
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Re: Being part of a community and behaving
Hi Ian, On Donnerstag, 13. November 2014, Ian Jackson wrote: > The correct reaction to people not adopting your software is to make > your software better, not to conduct an aggressive marketing campaign > aimed at persuading upstreams to built it in as a dependency, nor to > overrun distro mailing lists with advocacy messages. right, I agree these sys5 trolls have been super annoying and I also agree it's sad that the sys5 crowd didnt adopt their software to make it better and cope with todays needs. Just one thing: I haven't seen a sys5 marketing campaign, can you point me to that one? cheers, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Being part of a community and behaving
Russ Allbery writes ("Re: Being part of a community and behaving"):
> We waited two years, during which positions hardened, people got angrier
> and angrier, and there were increasing demands to force the issue.
> Serious question: how much longer were we realistically going to wait with
> zero sign of forward progress?
The correct reaction to people not adopting your software is to make
your software better, not to conduct an aggressive marketing campaign
aimed at persuading upstreams to built it in as a dependency, nor to
overrun distro mailing lists with advocacy messages.
Ian.
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Re: Reminder: Removing < 2048 bit keys from the Debian keyrings
Hi,
Brian Nelson:
> >> Wouldn't it make more sense to ask these people privately what is getting
> >> in
> >> the way of a switch to a stronger key?
> >
> > They have been asked. Repeatedly.
>
> I haven't been asked. I've received a few reminders that I need a new
> key with signatures, but I haven't been asked why I haven't submitted a
> new key yet.
The English language overlays "ask" in a way ('ask to …' vs. 'ask why/how …')
which seems to confirm your quote that
>
> --
> Captain Logic is not steering this tugboat.
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