Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 11:44:34AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> I thought we paid a retainer to the Software Freedom Law Center, not the
> Software Freedom Conservancy.  Am I confused?

I'm not aware of any retainer paid to Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC)
directly by Debian. SFLC is Debian's lawyer "transitively", via the
services that they offer to SPI's affiliated projects. It might be the
case that SPI's pay legal services to SFLC, but I really don't know.

Cheers.
-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli  . . . . . . .  z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o
Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o
Former Debian Project Leader . . . . . @zacchiro . . . . o o o . . . o .
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »


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Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Mehdi Dogguy]

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Hi,

On 01/12/2015 15:36, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> So if Debian really wants to help Conservancy, promoting their 
> current campaign for individual memberships would be a very useful 
> thing to do.
> 

Indeed. And instead of simply adding blog posts, the project may make
an official public statement about it.

- -- 
Mehdi
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Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Clint Adams]

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 09:04:28PM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> I'm not aware of any retainer paid to Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC)
> directly by Debian. SFLC is Debian's lawyer "transitively", via the
> services that they offer to SPI's affiliated projects. It might be the
> case that SPI's pay legal services to SFLC, but I really don't know.

I don't believe that SPI has ever paid for legal advice, to SFLC or
otherwise.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Paul Wise]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 6:23 AM, Mehdi Dogguy wrote:

> Indeed. And instead of simply adding blog posts, the project may make
> an official public statement about it.

The publicity team and associated folks posted these when the campaign began.

https://identi.ca/debian/note/hPj5AtNkQxGfsgI9upgBWA
https://twitter.com/debian/status/669070470180917248
https://quitter.se/notice/4232532

Were you thinking of something in a different Debian information
stream (like press releases, DPN, bits.d.o, DevNews etc)?

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Paul Wise]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:48 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

> It might be a little more complicated than that given our own 501(c)
> status, I think (but I am no longer a lawyer end never was an American
> tax lawyer.

Debian has no legal status, perhaps you are thinking of SPI?

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Ian Jackson]

Stefano Zacchiroli writes ("Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash"):
> On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 03:52:35PM +0100, Jakub Wilk wrote:
> > What does "forfait" mean?
...
> It means we pay that sum per year, and we have pre-allocated to us a
> given amount of lawyer hours each year. If we use more, the difference
> is billed to us.

FYI this is called a `retainer' in English.

Ian.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Joel W. Shea]

On Wed, Dec 02, 2015 at 09:35:26AM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 6:23 AM, Mehdi Dogguy wrote:
> 
> > Indeed. And instead of simply adding blog posts, the project may make
> > an official public statement about it.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Were you thinking of something in a different Debian information
> stream (like press releases, DPN, bits.d.o, DevNews etc)?

Would it also be worth mentioning on the donations page? [1]

Something along the lines of "since you value free software, you may
also consider donating to these organisations.", including links to
Software Freedom Conservancy, et.al.

[1] https://www.debian.org/donations


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Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Russ Allbery]

Stefano Zacchiroli  writes:

> We already pay for those services. There is a forfait amount of money
> that Debian pays to Conservancy per year (1000 USD, IIRC), which
> corresponds to a forfait amount of lawyer hours that Conservancy give to
> Debian per year. If any enforcement (or other legal) action will require
> more than those hours, Conservancy will bill Debian for the extra time.

I thought we paid a retainer to the Software Freedom Law Center, not the
Software Freedom Conservancy.  Am I confused?

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 01:17:53PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> As reported here:
>   https://sfconservancy.org/supporter/
> 
> Conservancy is an amazingly good thing.  They are the only
> organisation doing GPL enforcement for non-FSF projects.  They are
> facing financial problems because one of their major donors has
> withdrawn.  Conservancy's determination to make the GPL stick, by
> lawsuit if necessary, is not popular amongst rich corporates.
> 
> I have just signed up.  I think any Debian contributor who believes in
> copyleft, and can afford it, should probably sign up too.
> 

Signed up yesterday to take advantage of the anonymous offer for matched
funds for several subscriptions :)

> If, like me, you work on copylefted software in your day job, or you
> hope to do so in the future, the GPL is for you not just an important
> tool to help change the world, but also an assurance of your personal
> autonomy.
> 
> 
> Could Debian as a project sign up ?  Conservancy is a 503(c), like
> SPI, so perhaps we in Debian could commit a modest regular funding
> stream to Conservancy.
> 

It might be a little more complicated than that given our own 501(c)
status, I think (but I am no longer a lawyer end never was an American
tax lawyer.

> Debian depends heavily on GPL'd software and most of the
> Debian-specific tools we have written over the years are copyleft.  We
> depend on our copyleft being enforced to ensure that all users of
> Debian (including users of Debian derivatives) have the freedoms that
> our community (and our Social Contract) promise.
> 
> Debian's presence in the list of sponsors would be valuable as an
> example, too.
> 

But everybody already knows we care about Free software 

All the very best to all,

AndyC

> 
> Ian.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Paul Wise]

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:42 PM, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 01:17:53PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
>> Conservancy is an amazingly good thing.  They are the only
>> organisation doing GPL enforcement for non-FSF projects.
> Where can I read some examples about this?

Their supporter page lists their 2015 successes:

https://sfconservancy.org/supporter/

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 03:17:33PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> Let's give them a part of our money for the service they do us by
> enforcing the GPL for Debian developers.

We already pay for those services. There is a forfait amount of money
that Debian pays to Conservancy per year (1000 USD, IIRC), which
corresponds to a forfait amount of lawyer hours that Conservancy give to
Debian per year. If any enforcement (or other legal) action will require
more than those hours, Conservancy will bill Debian for the extra time.

If we want to donate to Conservancy, it should be on a different basis
than paying for the services we get from them, because those are
regulated on a contractual basis.

FWIW, I'm a conservancy supporter and also a testimonial for their
current fund raising campaign. But I'm against "transitive donations" of
money that Debian received as donations to other charitable initiatives
because, e.g., there is no reasonable guarantee that the goals of
Conservancy align well with the reasons why the initial donor gave money
to Debian.

Also, in this specific case, I don't think that significant one-shot
donations is what Conservancy needs the most in the current situation
(even though of course I don't and can't speak for the organization).
What they need is to build a significant basis of individual supporters
that will, on average, remain supporters in the long term.

So if Debian really wants to help Conservancy, promoting their current
campaign for individual memberships would be a very useful thing to do.

Cheers.
-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli  . . . . . . .  z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o
Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o
Former Debian Project Leader . . . . . @zacchiro . . . . o o o . . . o .
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »


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Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Ian Jackson]

Andrey Rahmatullin writes ("Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash"):
> On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 01:17:53PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > Conservancy is an amazingly good thing.  They are the only
> > organisation doing GPL enforcement for non-FSF projects.
>
> Where can I read some examples about this?

The biggest example right now is the VMware lawsuit:
  https://sfconservancy.org/news/2015/oct/28/vmware-update/

There is more on their `news' page:
  https://sfconservancy.org/news/
  https://sfconservancy.org/news/2015/oct/01/compliance-principles/
  https://sfconservancy.org/news/2015/aug/17/debian/
  https://sfconservancy.org/news/2015/jul/15/ubuntu-ip-policy/
  https://sfconservancy.org/news/2015/mar/31/libreplanet/
etc.

And also on their copyleft compliance summary:
  https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/

Individual compliance actions are often not public because one of the
things that the GPL licensor who wants a a violator to come into
compliance, can offer, is avoidance of the embarrassment of a public
dispute.

Ian.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 01:17:53PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Conservancy is an amazingly good thing.  They are the only
> organisation doing GPL enforcement for non-FSF projects.
Where can I read some examples about this?

-- 
WBR, wRAR

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Jakub Wilk]

* Stefano Zacchiroli , 2015-12-01, 15:36:
Let's give them a part of our money for the service they do us by 
enforcing the GPL for Debian developers.


We already pay for those services. There is a forfait amount of money 
that Debian pays to Conservancy per year (1000 USD, IIRC), which 
corresponds to a forfait amount of lawyer hours that Conservancy give 
to Debian per year.


What does "forfait" mean?

--
Jakub Wilk

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 03:52:35PM +0100, Jakub Wilk wrote:
> >We already pay for those services. There is a forfait amount of money that
> >Debian pays to Conservancy per year (1000 USD, IIRC), which corresponds to
> >a forfait amount of lawyer hours that Conservancy give to Debian per year.
> 
> What does "forfait" mean?

Oops, sorry.
I realized too late the expression doesn't work in English :)

It means we pay that sum per year, and we have pre-allocated to us a
given amount of lawyer hours each year. If we use more, the difference
is billed to us.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli  . . . . . . .  z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o
Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o
Former Debian Project Leader  . . @zack on identi.ca . . o o o . . . o .
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Paul Tagliamonte]

I also donate as a supporter. Anyone that can, should!

  Paul
On Dec 1, 2015 8:18 AM, "Ian Jackson" 
wrote:

> As reported here:
>   https://sfconservancy.org/supporter/
>
> Conservancy is an amazingly good thing.  They are the only
> organisation doing GPL enforcement for non-FSF projects.  They are
> facing financial problems because one of their major donors has
> withdrawn.  Conservancy's determination to make the GPL stick, by
> lawsuit if necessary, is not popular amongst rich corporates.
>
> I have just signed up.  I think any Debian contributor who believes in
> copyleft, and can afford it, should probably sign up too.
>
> If, like me, you work on copylefted software in your day job, or you
> hope to do so in the future, the GPL is for you not just an important
> tool to help change the world, but also an assurance of your personal
> autonomy.
>
>
> Could Debian as a project sign up ?  Conservancy is a 503(c), like
> SPI, so perhaps we in Debian could commit a modest regular funding
> stream to Conservancy.
>
> Debian depends heavily on GPL'd software and most of the
> Debian-specific tools we have written over the years are copyleft.  We
> depend on our copyleft being enforced to ensure that all users of
> Debian (including users of Debian derivatives) have the freedoms that
> our community (and our Social Contract) promise.
>
> Debian's presence in the list of sponsors would be valuable as an
> example, too.
>
>
> Ian.
>
>

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Tue, 01 Dec 2015, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Could Debian as a project sign up ?  Conservancy is a 503(c), like
> SPI, so perhaps we in Debian could commit a modest regular funding
> stream to Conservancy.

+1

We have troubles finding good use of our money. This one should not
cause any problem to anyone.

Let's give them a part of our money for the service they do us by enforcing
the GPL for Debian developers.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer

Support Debian LTS: http://www.freexian.com/services/debian-lts.html
Learn to master Debian: http://debian-handbook.info/get/

Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Ian Jackson]

As reported here:
  https://sfconservancy.org/supporter/

Conservancy is an amazingly good thing.  They are the only
organisation doing GPL enforcement for non-FSF projects.  They are
facing financial problems because one of their major donors has
withdrawn.  Conservancy's determination to make the GPL stick, by
lawsuit if necessary, is not popular amongst rich corporates.

I have just signed up.  I think any Debian contributor who believes in
copyleft, and can afford it, should probably sign up too.

If, like me, you work on copylefted software in your day job, or you
hope to do so in the future, the GPL is for you not just an important
tool to help change the world, but also an assurance of your personal
autonomy.


Could Debian as a project sign up ?  Conservancy is a 503(c), like
SPI, so perhaps we in Debian could commit a modest regular funding
stream to Conservancy.

Debian depends heavily on GPL'd software and most of the
Debian-specific tools we have written over the years are copyleft.  We
depend on our copyleft being enforced to ensure that all users of
Debian (including users of Debian derivatives) have the freedoms that
our community (and our Social Contract) promise.

Debian's presence in the list of sponsors would be valuable as an
example, too.


Ian.