Re: Gobby notes from diversity/inclusion BOF/workshop, Cambridge

[Paul Wise]

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 3:14 AM, Gunnar Wolf wrote:

> Yes. The Debian culture is cast around older tools. We work mostly via
> (plain-text!) email and IRC. And yes, I will argue (and even prove, as
> we did for an online conference ~10 years ago, where IRC was proven
> better than any other alternatives because of many small details) that
> they are much better suited to our work than that newfangled,
> mobile-friendly, over-AJAXy technologies that lure youngsters
> nowadays. I really doubt we will change our use of tools, but that is
> an important hurdle to attract newcomers: Our way of communication
> smells like it's 1995. And we like it to be uphill both ways.

There is no reason our tools can't be friendly to folks used to web
interfaces too. For example, Fedora seems to be doing some good work
there:

http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2016/11/15/fedora-hubs-and-meetbot-a-recursive-tale/

"Note this follows our general principle of enabling new contributors
while not uprooting our existing ones."

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Kicad Installation Issue Regard Of 4.0.4 Its Only Install 4.0.2 In Debian Jessie 8.5

[Paul Wise]

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 11:24 AM, ARAVIND B KUMAR
 wrote:

> We Are Try To Install Kicad 4.0.4 In Debain Jessie 8.5 But It Only Install
> 4.0.2 Can You Please Help Us How To Install Kicad 4.0.4 In Debian Jessie 8.5
> We Are Try To Build And We Try Using PPA But It Install Only Kicad 4.0.2

Please contact the person who made the kicad 4.0.2 version. If you are
using the official Debian backport of kicad, then that person will be
listed on this page, search for kicad in it:

https://backports.debian.org/changes/jessie-backports.html

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Kicad Installation Issue Regard Of 4.0.4 Its Only Install 4.0.2 In Debian Jessie 8.5

[ARAVIND B KUMAR]

Hello Sir

This Is Aravind From India

We Are Try To Install Kicad 4.0.4 In Debain Jessie 8.5 But It Only Install
4.0.2 Can You Please Help Us How To Install Kicad 4.0.4 In Debian Jessie
8.5 We Are Try To Build And We Try Using PPA But It Install Only Kicad 4.0.2

We Are Looking Forward From You.

Thanks You

Best Regards
Aravind Kumar

Re: Gobby notes from diversity/inclusion BOF/workshop, Cambridge

[Ian Jackson]

Adrian Bunk writes ("Re: Gobby notes from diversity/inclusion BOF/workshop, 
Cambridge"):
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 02:23:35PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> >...
> > Robust discussion is important but the time to stop is *before*,
> > not after, it's become personal. Is it possible to have a
> > 'personality moderator' role in Debian which could be used to help
> > calm down argument?
> >...

I feel motivated to point out once again that I didn't write that
text, contrary to the impression given by your quotation.  It's not
something I would have written and I don't care to defend it against
what reads to me like it is intended as a criticism.

Next time I post a gobby notes file in this way I will spend 5-10
minutes trying to draft a rubric that explains what the file is, how
it came to be, and what kind of things it can sensibly be used for.
I'm sorry for not doing that this time.

Thanks,
Ian.

-- 
Ian Jackson    These opinions are my own.

If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.

Re: Gobby notes from diversity/inclusion BOF/workshop, Cambridge

[Sean Whitton]

Hello Gunnar,

On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 01:14:24PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> But... Most of us joined when we were perfectly classifiable as
> "young". So, something has clearly changed in a project that attracted
> twenty-somethingers twenty years ago...?
> 
> So, Sean says something quite similar to what I was thinking:
>
> [...]
>
> Yes. The Debian culture is cast around older tools. We work mostly via
> (plain-text!) email and IRC. And yes, I will argue (and even prove, as
> we did for an online conference ~10 years ago, where IRC was proven
> better than any other alternatives because of many small details) that
> they are much better suited to our work than that newfangled,
> mobile-friendly, over-AJAXy technologies that lure youngsters
> nowadays. I really doubt we will change our use of tools, but that is
> an important hurdle to attract newcomers: Our way of communication
> smells like it's 1995. And we like it to be uphill both ways.

Although I agree with you that our older-fashioned tools are probably
putting some younger people off, I just wanted it to be clear that I was
making a slightly different point in my previous message.

The contrast I was invoking with many (not all) projects on GitHub was
simply (i) the lag time between submitting work and getting feedback,
and (ii) the number of revisions required before work is accepted.

> When many of us joined (in my case, early 2000s), Free Software was a
> strongly counter-cultural way to do something creative and challenge
> the system. When I started getting involved with it (mid 1990s), it
> was something our teachers never even imagined. That's a great way to
> lure young people in... But nowadays, we are the teachers and, to a
> given extent, we are the system — Free software has been there since
> always. Free software runs the biggest enterprises in the world. What
> is there that attracts young minds to us? Our superior package
> management, or our beautiful policies?

This is a very interesting thought.  Thanks for sharing it.

-- 
Sean Whitton


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Re: Gobby notes from diversity/inclusion BOF/workshop, Cambridge

[Adrian Bunk]

On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 02:23:35PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
>...
> Robust discussion is important but the time to stop is *before*, not after,
> it's become personal. Is it possible to have a 'personality moderator' role in
> Debian which could be used to help calm down argument?
>...

"personal" by the standards of which culture?

As one example, polite/rude are partially the other way round in Germany 
and the UK, just like yes/no often have a swapped meaning in the UK.

Worth reading:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37799805

A quote from that article:
"In Germany ... not saying what you mean is not forgiven.
 It's seen as dishonest, confused and ineffective."

I am German.
If you say "yes" when you mean "no", depending on the circumstances this 
is something I might consider a personal insult - and after that I might 
permanently consider you a dishonest person that cannot be trusted.

I am pretty sure there are also lots of things I say or do that are 
completely normal and not rude in my culture, but might come across
as rude to people in the UK or elsewhere.

cu
Adrian

-- 

   "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
   "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
   Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Gobby notes from diversity/inclusion BOF/workshop, Cambridge

[Gunnar Wolf]

Thanks, Ian and Sean, first for publishing this Gobby notes, and then
for the interesting idea exchange that resulted. I wanted to answer to
Ian's mail on this same topic, but then Sean started writing things
that I resonate with... So, the original text posted by Ian (to which
Ian claims no authorship, of course) said:

> We are not doing well at attracting younger developers into the
> community.  It can be very difficult to get younger people to attend
> because of the tendancy for younger people to be very
> self-conscious.

But... Most of us joined when we were perfectly classifiable as
"young". So, something has clearly changed in a project that attracted
twenty-somethingers twenty years ago...?

So, Sean says something quite similar to what I was thinking:

> Firstly, I intended to say more in my previous message about why we're
> having difficulty attracting younger developers.  The reason I wrote
> that d-mentors is very different to d-devel was to make the point that
> self-consciousness probably isn't the reason we're having difficulty
> with younger developers.  The kind of venues where new contributors
> engage are places where it /is/ comfortable to be wrong about something,
> so that's probably not why we're struggling.
> 
> Secondly, let me suggest why I think we're having difficulty attracting
> younger developers.  The issue is that patience is probably the number
> one virtue required for enjoying working in Debian, and young people are
> often impatient.  I suspect that things like GitHub have made this
> worse.  People get used to getting excited feedback on their pull
> requests made against fly-by-night JavaScript projects.  Then they
> package something for Debian, and it takes two months before someone
> reviews it.

Yes. The Debian culture is cast around older tools. We work mostly via
(plain-text!) email and IRC. And yes, I will argue (and even prove, as
we did for an online conference ~10 years ago, where IRC was proven
better than any other alternatives because of many small details) that
they are much better suited to our work than that newfangled,
mobile-friendly, over-AJAXy technologies that lure youngsters
nowadays. I really doubt we will change our use of tools, but that is
an important hurdle to attract newcomers: Our way of communication
smells like it's 1995. And we like it to be uphill both ways.

The examples you give on d-mentors are quite interesting; I wouldn't
be able to tell, as I haven't been on that {list,channel} since I
don't have enough free time to do it (many years alreaedy).

There have been several attempts to bring a fresher interface to how
we coordinate and how users approach us; I can only think about
initiatives such as ask.debian.net, which is used and valuable, but
has IMO failed to gather critical mass; I have never seen my search
engine direct me to ask.d.n for any question, and it's only in the
back of my mind as a place I should someday try to look at...

When many of us joined (in my case, early 2000s), Free Software was a
strongly counter-cultural way to do something creative and challenge
the system. When I started getting involved with it (mid 1990s), it
was something our teachers never even imagined. That's a great way to
lure young people in... But nowadays, we are the teachers and, to a
given extent, we are the system — Free software has been there since
always. Free software runs the biggest enterprises in the world. What
is there that attracts young minds to us? Our superior package
management, or our beautiful policies?

So... Well, I also don't intend to present a solution, just a brain
dump (hopefully not following by the full core and a segfault) :)


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