Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC
Dear Gunnar, Thank you for your fine words. The same goes for everybody else as well. This is going to be a bit long-winded so please excuse. I learnt English in school and there the teacher used to tell us, in fact force us to write essays. The essays would be typically 1000-1500 words on topics like 'my holidays' , 'my pet' etc. These had to be at the most in two or three paragraphs, for some reason she dis-liked small paragraphs. Rightly or wrongly, that is what I learnt . In college we didn't have the need except for a letter or two excusing me for a day for something at home or the other. When working in and with companies the idea was given/planted that all work/intellectual property is there's so you can't talk anything about the work you do, so apart from short note here and there there wasn't much need of documentation. Cut to 2003/4 and blogging was the in-thing in those days. I don't remember the name, but there was a blogging service during that time, very popular, but with the downside (to people in the know) that you couldn't import or export the content. To be part of this new charismatic group called 'bloggers' and 'agents of the fourth estate' , 'crusaders of democracy' and whatever terms of endearment that were being used to people feel like rockstars. While some people made lots of money, others were content with being able to post their ideas without censoring themselves. I hadn't know about Google's 'blogger' till that point. So re-using what I had learnt in school, I applied that and it was ok for everybody else. Then in end 2007 or early 2008 that service for some reason or the other was stopped. And because that content could be imported or exported the content was lost. So searching a new home for my musings, one of the pre-conditions this time around was that content could be imported or exported and luckily blogger was the only service at that point which was free and had this service. https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/2008/01/27/open-hardware/ - My first blog post. Blogger became my home and for the next 3-4 years after which I started finding it limiting and realizing it's not free software . Then cut to 2011 and I chaged to wordpress.com and I still continued in my old style of writing. Over the years, there have been few and far instances where people offered or asked me to write and I observed that they would put a photograph or picture or two in the blog post. I still didn't think much of that. Around the same time, I had started covering foss events around the city, the country wherever I was invited to and I started to quickly ran out of web-space for photos. I used flickr and photobucket and quickly ran out of the space allocated to free users. But as these were just random musings and online web-shops quickly become expensive the only thing was left to use community-oriented offerings such as the gallery offerings offered by fosscommunity.in . The gallery service worked great until one time it broke and all the content wiped clean. IIRC, there was lot of spam. Cut to 2016 and after South Africa trip, I had promised myself as well as others on the debconf-discuss that I will share some of the highlights of the trip. I found photos really capture the moment and once you start describing a certain photo you relive the moment all over again. For this purposes, I did get access to debconf gallery page but its usage is only for debconf images. https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/page/3/ - Debconf 16 musings Then cut to 2017 and I started to devote some time to write about Debian . https://itsfoss.com/author/shirish/ One of the first lessons I was taught the importance of having both pictures and short paragraphs. I was told and agree that having photographs are like a break in the clouds. I was told to also make smaller paragraphs and both the pieces of advise helped me quite a bit to mature a bit as a writer. Now as far as me writing technical content about Debian on p.d.o. is concerned, that's a laugh. I do not think that there is anything I write technically which will be news either to Debian or/and DD's. In fact, if people looked at the itsfoss.com articles they will find most are beginner-friendly articles. Somebody shared that ranting about Debian is fine. I disagree with that. Two pet peeves, debian-installer is ugly and needs lot of work (in design) and would be nice if wiki.debian.org got mediawiki instead of the current solution. Now while writing blog posts on both these topics are easy, the rants will remain as they are. It would be useful and relevant ONLY if I were to do something about it. As shared in Debconf, it's a do-ocracy which is important rather than rants and raves . Neither of the two have any easy fixes and would need both expertise and probably hundreds of hours sinking in to have something worthwhile. I neither have the expertise in either nor do have the amount of time required so such posts wouldn't be useful. Even get
Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC
alberto fuentes dijo [Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 01:30:19PM +0200]: > (...) > It comes down to know if planet is about debian or about debian developers > > My personal opinion is that it should be about debian, not about debian > developers. Random rants, specially cathartic ones slightly related to the > debian philosophy of life, should be curbed. And therefore, post about your > holidays or book reviews should be out of the question. Rants about debian > should be okay tho :) > > Luckily only a handful of people step out of this line, so in practice is > not a problem. Specially by a beloved developer as Russ, which many people > like and which opinion in matters is important for many as well Humh... Well, we did have this discussion a long time ago. Of course, discussions can be brought back to life; reality changes, actors in a given place change, and all that. Back in the day, many of us argued that our Planet should not just be a view into what we Debian-affiliated people are doing WRT Debian, but... I'll phrase it as a window into what each of us _is_ as a person. That helps us know our fellow posters, and helps externals get a feeling of what they will find if they step closer to the project. About this thread in particular: I enjoy Shirish's posts, and have told so to him privately. I did think some people would complain regarding this last post, but -besides the large, probably needless photo- I don't think there's anything in it that violates our CoC. It's a nice narration about a series of thoughts that came to him a very long time ago, doing something that while socially not very accepted, is very common in people his age (at the time of what happened). Terribly Debian-relevant? Nope. But neither is about half of what I've posted over the years (maybe more than half). And, still, I often get helpful or inquisitive comments on what I post from fellow Debianers via different media. > (...) > For many, debian is full of friends, so sharing with planet debian feels > like sharing with friends. But the reality is that there are many people > reading the feed. Many more than your inner circle of friends in debian > > Luckily, most people realize this and only share their posts tagged with > debian Out of the current upper stories of Planet Debian, I can see some people talking about their life in general, some people talking about their free software projects or technical tips (not directly related to Debian), some people talking about Debian "properly". I don't really agree with your assessment: Some people do use this just as a window into their Debian-related life, but some others just share our thoughts as they come by. There are people who often write many non-Debian posts which I enjoy. I hope the current consensus allows them to stay there. > (...) > I have a small blog as well with a couple of posts about debian, but I > still dont think it is useful enough to waste so many peoples time by > aggregating it to the planet I would invite you to add it to the Planet. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC
shirish शिरीष writes ("Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC"): > Please CC me as I'm not subscribed to the mailing list. Please excuse > the non-brievity of the mail. > > Couple of weeks back, I put up a blog post > https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/2017/03/30/the-tale-of-the-dancing-girl-nsfw/ I don't much read blogs, and I don't read planet, mostly because I'm too old-school for that kind of thing. But: > Because the subject matter is mature and uncomfortable to many people > my feed was turned off. In response to your email, I went and visited that blog posting. Thank you for the NSFW warning. Due to that, I read your posting in w3m. That avoided me having sexualised imagery appearing on my screen in the open-plan office I work in. I agree with everything Russ said in his posting about "Safe for work". In particular, if I had been a reader of planet.d.o, and a NSFW image had appeared on my screen, I would immediately have reported it to the appropriate administrators and expected them to remove it. (After reacting in panic to hide the offending tab!) I am much more relaxed about textual content. I found the textual content of your article fine from a policy point of view. I have no problems with extended philosophical musings on an aggregator like p.d.o, so long as the rate at which they are posted is low enough that they don't start to overwhelm other stuff. Thanks, Ian.
Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC
On 14634 March 1977, shirish शिरीष wrote: > While Laura had shared with me that she is the only one who is behind > the antiharassm...@debian.org, I was under the mis-guided > understanding that pla...@debian.org was a team and not just Benjamin > alone. You can find out who is behind which team at https://www.debian.org/intro/organization which does list more for Planet than just mako, as well as more for anti-harrassment than Laura. -- bye, Joerg
Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC
On 14634 March 1977, Russ Allbery wrote: > The content should be such that it is suitable for people over 12 > years of age. > now in the PlanetDebian wiki page added with the above revision is, if > true, quite significant. If that is Planet Debian policy, I'll switch my > aggregation feed for planet.debian.org over to only posts I explicitly tag > with Debian, which will mean removing nearly all of my posts. Thats not the policy. I'm also not sure if I like what Holger has rewritten it too, though in the end his text is just a reminder to think about if the post fits. And no, the DebConf CoC does not fit Planet. -- bye, Joerg
Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC
Dear all, @ Laura, thank you for your explanation. You are right, it was only 30th March so I over-reacted, sorry . As shared let's take couple of weeks and then come back to this. It would help everybody (including me) have a more cool, detached look at things. Having said that, I would urge all those who may have the energy and the time to help Laura with her antiharassment hat on as well as if some people also can find time and the energy to help Benjamin Mako Hill for planet with $ stuff that perhaps needs to be worked through as well. While Laura had shared with me that she is the only one who is behind the antiharassm...@debian.org, I was under the mis-guided understanding that pla...@debian.org was a team and not just Benjamin alone. The more people can perhaps help lighten the load on these two individuals the better it would be for them and perhaps the project as well. just having 1 person IMO means you will always have a bus factor of 1 where it is much easier for the person/s to have a burn out as Laura herself has so indicated. It would be much nicer if there is a team at both the places for the short and medium term. @Russ - I do appreciate the work you do and in fact am envious of you quite a bit as you seem to have boundless energy and passion to review books. I wanted to be a librarian so I could read books all day when I was little, so would urge you not to do anything hasty atm. If at all possible, please help them in anyway you can. I am hopeful that in the next few weeks we do have a document or set of documents which clarifies a bit more rather than just remaining status-quoist . Look forward to people dedicating time and energy to make Debian a more welcoming place than it is already . -- Regards, Shirish Agarwal शिरीष अग्रवाल My quotes in this email licensed under CC 3.0 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/ http://flossexperiences.wordpress.com EB80 462B 08E1 A0DE A73A 2C2F 9F3D C7A4 E1C4 D2D8
Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC
On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 01:50:33PM +0200, alberto fuentes wrote: > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 1:44 PM, Lars Wirzenius wrote: > > > In short, it's about Debian contributors, not just Debian. Based on my > > memory, it has always been that way. > > I know the current (and past, since this is not the first time I argue > this) state of affairs :) It has indeed always been this way; the argument has indeed come up many times; and the answer for those who want a different content is always the same (and never acted upon): nothing stops you from running your own planet. Such a thing could even be linked to from p.d.o or elsewhere in the Debian-web. So far nobody has opted to do so. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net ⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC
Hi El 05/04/17 a las 22:09, shirish शिरीष escribió: Dear all, Please CC me as I'm not subscribed to the mailing list. Please excuse the non-brievity of the mail. Couple of weeks back,I put up a blog post https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/2017/03/30/the-tale-of-the-dancing-girl-nsfw/ Sorry, but no "couple of weeks". Your post is from March 30th. Because the subject matter is mature and uncomfortable to many people my feed was turned off. In response I was given/shared three documents/links - https://wiki.debian.org/PlanetDebian To be more precise it was https://wiki.debian.org/PlanetDebian?action=diff&rev2=49&rev1=48 https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct and last but not the least - https://debconf.org/codeofconduct.shtml Sorry, but no. I (with my anti-harassment team hat on and CC'ing antiharassment@ and planet@) provided an explanation to you of the action that the Planet Team took, and in my very first sentences I mentioned it's NSFW as you were already noting in your post. I added the links to that, as reference. And somehow the debconf code of conduct became the over-riding factor. This is *your* opinion. I think I clarified it enough in the mails that we exchanged. The official policy of Debian is the Debian Code of Conduct: https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct which is approved by the Debian Project in General Resolution, and it's linked in the Debian website homepage. From the discussions it emerged or was shared (in private) that the documents need to be evolved No. I said: "We may need to make evolve our different documents about conduct (that were born in different times) towards a global set of guidelines. This needs work and discussions and time." Note the "we *may* need", and "this needs work and discussions and time". but there doesn't seem to be any discussion about it in the public space and that I find frustrating (or maybe I'm not looking at the right place/s and if so please guide.) I do find this part to be problematic - "Try not to annoy people. While there is absolutely no requirement that posts need to be about Debian, if there are a subset of posts that are annoying a large number of people and generating many complaints, you may be asked to consider providing a feed without the posts in question. If you stay away from advertising content (or content that might be confused as such) and from excessively personal information, you should be fine." Now while I have hinted that the material should be child or family-friendly it still seems far from perfect. Again, no. We noted that your post was NSFW. We said that as a "rule of thumb", if your content is ok for under-12, it's probably ok for posting in planet. For any person it is very difficult to know what would or would not annoy people. For instance the blog post I'm writing atm is about 'Fatalism' the idea or thought that some/few/many people have that life is pre-ordained in full or in parts . While my feed is still blocked, the specific blog post might or might not annoy people. If we are to talk only 'safe' topics then that would serve as a good guide. Even if we are able to come with a list of topics which are considered harmful or detrimental to the project even that probably would be service to the project. Or dis-service, I'm not sure. E.g., a recent related post that appeared in Planet: https://grep.be/blog/en/retorts/Codes_of_Conduct/ And please note the *e.g.*. You may find different discussions out there about the topic, with different opinions. Similarly, perhaps the Debian Code of Conduct could do with some child/family-friendly addition therein. I have no idea whether debian-project is the right place to start this discussion or some other mailing list/bug-report or some other way. The Debian Code of Conduct was approved as a General Resolution. You can find more discussion about it here: https://www.debian.org/vote/2014/vote_002 I guess that further changes to the Debian Code of Conduct may need to be approved in General Resolution as well. This needs time, discussions and work, as I noted before. Personally I'm quite energy-drained in the last weeks (and couldn't find time to recharge my batteries yet) because of personal reasons unrelated to Debian (and some Debian work, I have to admit), and, with my anti-harassment team hat on, would prefer not to open this discussion right now, since I'm struggling even just for keeping myself up to date with inbox (I couldn't find time to read this whole thread in the middle of my day work). I am no DD or DM so guess this is the only way I can raise the issue and get some sort of equivalence in all three documents so they speak/tell the same thing. No, this was not the only way. Personal note: I need to rest, for my personal physical and mental health and for feeling strong to help others too. I'm not burned out right now, but I don't want to arrive to that situation. So
Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 1:44 PM, Lars Wirzenius wrote: > In short, it's about Debian contributors, not just Debian. Based on my > memory, it has always been that way. > I know the current (and past, since this is not the first time I argue this) state of affairs :)
Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC
On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 01:30:19PM +0200, alberto fuentes wrote: > It comes down to know if planet is about debian or about debian developers From https://wiki.debian.org/PlanetDebian: What Can I Post On Planet? Planet Debian aims to aggregate the blog posts of people who are active in Debian and not only to aggregate the blog posts about Debian. The point is to provide a window into the community itself. Posts that are about Debian are a great idea and some people will choose to only syndicate "on topic" posts. But other posts are also welcome! We want to learn about the people, their life, opinions (even political) and doings. In short, it's about Debian contributors, not just Debian. Based on my memory, it has always been that way. -- I want to build worthwhile things that might last. --joeyh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 6:58 AM, Russ Allbery wrote: > Separately, on the textual content... I'm not sure exactly the right way > to phrase this advice, but I do think you use your blog to explore > intensely personal philosophical questions. I understand that you really > want to explore those with other people in the project as well, but I can > also see how it can be a little out of step with what others post there. > I'm not really certain how much of a problem it is, but the piece of the > Planet Debian policy that I would have pointed you at isn't the > family-friendly bit, but the "excessively personal information" bit. > I would really like this point to come to a more concrete precise line, even if the nature of it is to be a blurred one. This way you can still decide how out of the (blurred-)line somebody is. The current 'try not to annoy people' is weird and feels like it says 'try not to annoy the wrong people' It comes down to know if planet is about debian or about debian developers My personal opinion is that it should be about debian, not about debian developers. Random rants, specially cathartic ones slightly related to the debian philosophy of life, should be curbed. And therefore, post about your holidays or book reviews should be out of the question. Rants about debian should be okay tho :) Luckily only a handful of people step out of this line, so in practice is not a problem. Specially by a beloved developer as Russ, which many people like and which opinion in matters is important for many as well Not having written rules about this makes other people say, why cant I as well? My other important point is that this is not about curbing people opinions or exposure, its about not misusing a tool. We are people and many share hobbies and ideas about life. But there are other spaces to share this content on the internet. If I want to see cat pictures I go to a cat pictures website which are galore. I dont need somebody to share their cat pictures in planet debian For many, debian is full of friends, so sharing with planet debian feels like sharing with friends. But the reality is that there are many people reading the feed. Many more than your inner circle of friends in debian Luckily, most people realize this and only share their posts tagged with debian When the line about being related to debian is dubious, think, how many people would opt-in to this kind of posts if i made a separate feed? That should self-clarify if it belongs to the planet Im sure this has been discussed ad nauseum (Debian style) and I just took the opportunity now that somebody else brought it up. Im just a small contributor... I dont contribute near as much as somebody like Russ, so I feel little out of line saying this. But take it just as my opinion on the subject and nothing more :) I have a small blog as well with a couple of posts about debian, but I still dont think it is useful enough to waste so many peoples time by aggregating it to the planet Cheers!
Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC
On Wed, Apr 05, 2017 at 07:19:04PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > now in the PlanetDebian wiki page added with the above revision is, if > true, quite significant. If that is Planet Debian policy, I'll switch my > aggregation feed for planet.debian.org over to only posts I explicitly tag > with Debian, which will mean removing nearly all of my posts. [...] > (I'm also pretty mystified about the application of Debconf's code of > conduct to Planet Debian, if that is indeed something being considered. I > would treat those very differently; content that's acceptable as words on > the Internet may be entirely out of line in an environment where children > are physically present, and I would always check the audience and > environment before discussing sexuality in person at a conference. > On-line communication is far different because there's no way to check the > audience; once it's on-line, anyone on the Internet may be reading it.) I fully agree. My understanding is that shirish was pointed to several resources including the DebConf CoC when his feed was removed from Planed Debian, and as a consequence he added the link to the PlanetDebian wiki, for the benefit of others who could be in a similar position. I would guess that the link was sent with good intentions as a possibly useful resource, rather than as a policy to follow. I am afraid that this could result in the DebConf CoC accidentally becoming policy for Planet Debian, and I'm glad shirish raised the issue explicitly. My blog also has content that some might not find appropriate for 12 year olds (mostly here http://www.enricozini.org/tags/life/) and the English posts of it generally end up in Planet Debian. On Wed, Apr 05, 2017 at 09:58:49PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > I think "safe for work" is a much easier-to-apply and less-fraught policy > than "safe for anyone over the age of 12." In particular, "safe for work" > emphasizes the problems with open offices, easily-seen screens, and people > reading over your shoulder, and therefore correctly emphasizes the > problems with *visual* content. Indeed. I would remove the reference to the DebConf CoC from the Planet Debian wiki page, and replace it with some pointer about trying to make posts safe for work. I'd like it not to be about what topics one talks about, but rather about how to pay attention when chosing very visible parts like titles or images. > Everyone posts some of that from time to time, and some of it isn't a big > deal. I've certainly posted some of it, and no one really minds. But I > think the key bit is *occasionally*. As part of a mix of a variety of > other content, I don't think anyone is going to object, but if your blog > is *mostly* extended philosophical musings, particularly long ones > (because again Planet Debian expands everything in-line), I'm not horribly > surprised that a few people might start complaining. Whether those > complaints should warrant a change is kind of a hard question, and I'm not > quite sure what to feel (I really value the diversity of human experience > in the project), but you might want to consider whether there are some > merits to dialing it back a bit, at least in the content you syndicate to > Planet Debian. I personally skip most of shirish' posts because I usaully don't have the energy to read them. When I do have the energy to read them, I tend to find them between interesting and adorable, and that included the article in question. I agree with the suggestiong of dialing it back a bit from a content optimization point of view ("if you want to please your audience the most, you could…"), and I would disagree with that suggestion if it came from a policy point of view ("do this or your feed will get removed"). There are many more posts I regularly skip[1], but I wouldn't ask for their feeds to be removed from Planet Debian. At most, I would rant about them to a close circle of friends, in those rare cases when we'd have nothing better to talk about. I'd like to see shirish' feed being syndicated again in Planet Debian, and I understand he'd like to make sure he's not doing harm with his posts. I know people complained about that post, but I don't know anything else about their complaint: were they generically policing? Did they get into trouble? Did they get tired of shirish' posts? Did they get triggered and had a really bad day coping with past traumas? I also don't think I should know, as I don't think there's value in exposing complaints to public scrutiny. I don't see any use in pattern matching shirish' post against bullet points in a Code of Conduct. We could read everything carefully and argue whether each paragraph complied or not with each point, and in so doing we would completely ignore the existance of a person who might have been hurt, and how to really not get them hurt again. Also, almost any post can be NSFW for some values of Work. For example, I know there are workplaces where talking about Free
Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC
The meta issue here is who decides policy for Planet Debian, and how that is done. This is important for the current case as well: the controversial blog post is dates March 30, the change to require suitability for 12-year-olds is from March 31, and the wiki change was made by the author of the blog post. I'm not aware of any public discussion of the change, before the change happened, but perhaps I've just found it. I admit I have a hard time trusting a policy defined in a wiki page that anyone can change. It seems quite weird to me to apply the DebConf Code of Conduct to Planet Debian. I don't who said what to whom, when, or how, to make that be the conclusion. It would be good, I think, to have policy discssions on public mailing lists. I don't currently have a comment on the suitability for Planet Debian of the post in question. Russ raises excellent points. -- I want to build worthwhile things that might last. --joeyh signature.asc Description: PGP signature