Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[shirish शिरीष]

Reply in-line -

On 08/04/2017, Charles Plessy  wrote:
> Le Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 03:00:10PM +0530, shirish शिरीष a écrit :
>>
>> Could you or anybody else please share even if unintentionally, I have
>> been demeaning to anybody in my writings. While I have repeatedly
>> apologized, I would like to know where I have demeaned people.
>> Everybody is welcome to point to me either publicly or privately what
>> is/was demeaning in my writing.
>
> Hi Shirish and everybody,
>

Hi Charles,

> I think that there is a broad consensus that the core problem is the image
> that you included, not the writings.
>
> On my side, do trust you that you did not intend to hurt anybody, and that
> you did not intend the use of this image to be eye-catching to attract 
> readers,
> nor to convey derogatory messages about women.  But Debian is a very broad
> community, so if you are told that the image has made Debian less welcoming
> than it should, and that it has put people at risk to lose their jobs, you
> (and > me) have to trust that.
>

I understand both the concerns which have been bought and shared before.

> If I could sugest a good way out of this situation, it would be that you
> acknowledge (briefly) that you understood that images are sensitive
> materials that have much more potential to harm others than just plain text, 
> >and that you will be careful in the future.  In return, I think that it 
> would fair if
> the anti-harassment team would also acknowledge that you are not a
>> harrasser,to cleary any possible misunderstanding if a third party 
> stumbles in > the archives of this discussion at some point in the future.
>

I do acknowledge that images have more potential to harm others,
although I believe in exact opposite that words have both the power to
heal and burn in ways images never can.

Nevertheless, I did say sorry in
https://flossexperiences.wordpress.com/2017/04/06/the-fatalistic-attitude/
but if there is anything more that is needed to be done by me which
will make amends I'm ready to do that. If it is simply to ackowledge
here on the mailing list, have done that. If it is to acknowledge on
another blog post that my choice of picture was not great and be more
sensitive in choosing pictures am ready to do that as well.

For my part, I also tried asking the same question in
https://en.forums.wordpress.com/topic/is-there-a-way-to-make-photos-covered-or-content-covered?

But as can be seen no one has bothered to reply as of yet. I would
probably use webapps.stackexchange.com to see if some sort of
technical solution is also available that could be used as well.

I believe the ideal solution would be a mix of both social and
technical solution .

As an aside, yesterday, I just registered and tried hex.bz which is a
public instance of mastodon and saw there is a neat CW (Content
Warning) code which hides content and if people want to make a choice
to still see the content then they are responsible.

> Have a nice week-end,
>

The same to you as well sir.

> --
> Charles Plessy
> Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan
>


-- 
  Regards,
  Shirish Agarwal  शिरीष अग्रवाल
  My quotes in this email licensed under CC 3.0
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/
http://flossexperiences.wordpress.com
EB80 462B 08E1 A0DE A73A  2C2F 9F3D C7A4 E1C4 D2D8

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Charles Plessy]

Le Fri, Apr 07, 2017 at 03:00:10PM +0530, shirish शिरीष a écrit :
> 
> Could you or anybody else please share even if unintentionally, I have
> been demeaning to anybody in my writings. While I have repeatedly
> apologized, I would like to know where I have demeaned people.
> Everybody is welcome to point to me either publicly or privately what
> is/was demeaning in my writing.

Hi Shirish and everybody,

I think that there is a broad consensus that the core problem is the image that
you included, not the writings.

On my side, do trust you that you did not intend to hurt anybody, and that you
did not intend the use of this image to be eye-catching to attract readers, nor
to convey derogatory messages about women.  But Debian is a very broad
community, so if you are told that the image has made Debian less welcoming
than it should, and that it has put people at risk to lose their jobs, you (and
me) have to trust that.

If I could sugest a good way out of this situation, it would be that you
acknowledge (briefly) that you understood that images are sensitive materials
that have much more potential to harm others than just plain text, and that you
will be careful in the future.  In return, I think that it would fair if the
anti-harassment team would also acknowledge that you are not a harrasser, to
cleary any possible misunderstanding if a third party stumbles in the archives
of this discussion at some point in the future.

Have a nice week-end,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan

Re: having public irc logs?

[Gianfranco Costamagna]

(this question was on debian-vote by purpose, and was directed to DPL,
I'll drop -vote on the next email)

>(Replies redirected to debian-project, since this has nothing to do
>with the DPL election anymore.)


sigh, I agree
(I would have used -devel to have a public discussion, this wasn't
the case, but meh, it is nice to discuss such things anyway)

>I guestion the usefulness of IRC logs for that kind of thing. The log
>shows that, say, a package was discussed three hours ago. Has the
>situation changed? It might have, but without anyone mentioning it on
>IRC, and therefor in the log. The kinds of things that are discussed
>on IRC tend be quickly changing. Logs are not useful for those. In my
>opinion and experience.


I had many times written something just some minutes after somebody else.
You might question it, I might agree with you, but in my life I have a lot
of use-cases of this being useful
(e.g. my uploads not being accepted, a quick look on -ftp channel logs
can show signs of dak sadness).

But anyway, I don't see any added value of discussing what I find useful
and what you find useful :)
>This does not match my observations of reality. People seem happy to
>behave quite badly using their own names in public fora as it is.
>Making IRC channels public is unlikely to have much effect on
>behaviour.


completely correct, this was an answer to some "hey we can't public
logs because people are using bad words here".
>If it did, nobody would be an ass on Facebook, Google+, or Twitter
>unless they've taken care to hide their identity well. Yet people are
>posting, using their real names, sexist and racist slurs, even death
>threats. Not to mention newspapers and TV.


sigh, true, unfortunately nobody seems responsible anymore for
his behaviour.

>If there's a problem with how people behave on IRC, that should be
>addressed directly.


sure, but this is not something I have to discuss, I don't have such
problem, I just think logs are useful :)

>> You want to protect privacy but you know privacy doesn't exist on
>> public places.
>I disgree strongly.
>
>If I sit on a park bench with a friend and we discuss something, we
>have an expectation of privacy. If you record our conversation and
>play it on the radio, you've violated our privacy.


true
>> (it would be nice if some removed developer going away after some
>> bad flame war over Debian would publish *all* the logs just for fun)
>> How will you protect the privacy then?
>
>You're suggesting that someone publish non-public discussions? Becuase
>it would be fun? Seriously?


I didn't suggest that, but privacy online is seriously something that
*doesn't* exist, and people not understanding that are simply wrong.
you can have some false idea of privacy online, the website gets
hacked, or a bug shows logs on the server, or somebody else hacks
your pc.
In a park the damage you can do is limited, online is really worse the situation

(I remember some leaks of some websites for adults, leaking real email addresses
and real passwords)


so, saying "somebody violating my privacy is wrong", when "somebody" can be 
"null" or
"really difficult to track because vpn/tor", doesn't protect you much more.
>> People should be responsible for what they say, regardless where
>> they say. We are not kids anymore.
>I'll be sending a handyman to install a webcam and microphone in your
>bathroom and bedroom. I've also engaged a private investigator firm to
>follow you and record all discussions you have with friends. The ones
>that mention or refer to Debian will be posted to
>meetings-archive.debian.net. A team of volunteers will transcribe them
>and post them to identi.ca. After all, ýou need to be responsible for
>anything you say, at any time, in any place, in any context.


well, bathroom and bedroom are more private than irc I would say, but
sometimes even the context has to be considered when saying something

>More constructively... if you have a point that specific disucssions
>about, say, release management should be made more public, then make a
>specific suggestion about that, with justificiations why it's a good
>idea. Saying that all Debian IRC channels should be logged publically
>is too broad to be acceptable to a large number of people.


And finally the point is there.
If you look closely to my first email I never said "all", and specially
I don't care about many channels (even -devel or -mentors might be useless
when not connected to the internet).
I even provided a list, -release, -ftp, -buildd.

so, the question still stands.
Dear DPL candidate, how do you feel about having *some* irc channels of public
interest being available for offline users?

Gianfranco

Re: Unaddressed use cases for machine-readable debian/copyright files

[Dominique Dumont]

On Saturday, 25 March 2017 16:25:38 CEST Guillem Jover wrote:
> Personally I have no issue with coalescing
> copyright notices, as long as they are all for the same license, etc.
> I even coalesce copyright years for the same owner.

Coalescing copyright notices and years is also done when running "cme update 
dpkg-copyright" 

See [1] for more details.

HTH

[1] 
https://github.com/dod38fr/config-model/wiki/Managing-Debian-packages-with-cme#update-a-package

-- 
 https://github.com/dod38fr/   -o- http://search.cpan.org/~ddumont/
http://ddumont.wordpress.com/  -o-   irc: dod at irc.debian.org

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[shirish शिरीष]

in-line :-

On 07/04/2017, Joerg Jaspert  wrote:

>
> Is anything you ever wrote short? I have yet to see the day where you
> produce output thats less than a dozen paragraphs. And thats straight to
> the point instead of retelling the whole story of earth and humankind to
> set a base that in the end doesn't appear to be neccessary. I skip most
> of your stuff usually because its just way too long.
>

agree to disagree. I have been told in past that I make jumps and
connections without giving contextual information. I don't deny that
it takes me much more time and space than the other person, but that's
the only way I know.

For instance, probably this week-end I'll be sharing and posting about
a certain political person and a political party. Now the party has
been there for around 50 years. Because of the way the party was
formed and incidents that happened or occurred it is being the way it
is. If I just call the political party ' a nuisance party' and the
person/s involved in an incident 'nuisance persons' without giving
that contextual information, it will neither make sense for people who
do not know about the political party in question and it will be easy
for people to accuse me of being from some other political party or
worse.

>> Cut to 2016 and after South Africa trip, I had promised myself as well
>> as others on the debconf-discuss that I will share some of the
>> highlights of the trip. I found photos really capture the moment and
>> once you start describing a certain photo you relive the moment all
>> over again. For this purposes, I did get access to debconf gallery
>> page but its usage is only for debconf images.
>
> And that stuff is good, and while it all was lengthy, it actually was a
> nice read.
>

At least something turned out to be worthwhile :)

>> One of the first lessons I was taught the importance of having both
>> pictures and short paragraphs.
>
> Short paragraphs alone don't make it better if you end up with a million
> of them. Turns out to be the same long text in the end.
>

agreed.

>> Now as far as me writing technical content about Debian on p.d.o. is
>> concerned, that's a laugh. I do not think that there is anything I
>> write technically which will be news either to Debian or/and DD's. In
>> fact, if people looked at the itsfoss.com articles they will find most
>> are beginner-friendly articles.
>
> And Planet is not a forum where everything must be news to DDs/DMs and
> gosh, beware, if we don't learn something new technical every day on
> Planet, day is bad. Not at all.
>

Ok.

>> Somebody shared that ranting about Debian is fine. I disagree with
>> that.
>
> But of course ranting is fine.
>

Ok.

>> Having said that, I know now its not alright to have anything even
>> remotedly talk about sex at p.d.o. at all.
>
> And thats lets me wonder if you understood what you got told about the
> one post from you that got this all started. No, talking about sex is
> NOT forbidden. Thats not what you got told. Its also not "must be safe
> for 12 year olds".
>
> The fine point is to do it in a way that will not get fellow Debianites
> into trouble (and to not have sex talk as your only content...). A
> picture like was in your post is able to get people into trouble, some
> employers do have pretty strict rules. Describing an act (in a halfway
> human way, not like writing a porn movie seller) won't (as much) make
> trouble.
>

That I understood, I think there are two strategies I could use if I
had to do the same thing today  -

a. Not to syndicate to planet-debian at all - the easiest way .

b. Instead of putting the whole post just use <---more---> , this way
the content above the fold which would be textual matter would only
come, which probably will just be a paragraph. if a person/s decide to
visit the blog then planet.debian.org is not to be blamed. This would
be only for controversial topics though or something where I'm not
sure of.

> (And then add on top that we are a pretty huge community with a whole
> load of different views on life and all its matters. Keep in mind that
> Planet may be read by all of us, so try to not be demeaning in your
> writings).
>

Could you or anybody else please share even if unintentionally, I have
been demeaning to anybody in my writings. While I have repeatedly
apologized, I would like to know where I have demeaned people.
Everybody is welcome to point to me either publicly or privately what
is/was demeaning in my writing.

If people don't point out and let me know how will I know and correct
my mistakes.

> --
> bye, Joerg
>

-- 
  Regards,
  Shirish Agarwal  शिरीष अग्रवाल
  My quotes in this email licensed under CC 3.0
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/
http://flossexperiences.wordpress.com
EB80 462B 08E1 A0DE A73A  2C2F 9F3D C7A4 E1C4 D2D8

using Debian funds to sponsor other events?

[Daniel Pocock]

Hi all,

Have there been previous discussions about using Debian funds to sponsor
arbitrary free software events?

I don't think Debian has the financial means to sponsor any arbitrary
event or to give funds to events just for publicity or goodwill.
However, maybe there are cases where other events might spend the money
in a way Debian would have used the money and then the publicity and
goodwill Debian gets from being listed as a sponsor is a bonus.

Here are some of the thoughts that came to my mind:

- given the growing inconvenience of travel, and the high cost (both
financial and time) for developers to travel to global events, there are
cases where it is more productive for developers to attend local events

- local events are not always "Debian" events though, they may involve a
combination of different communities

- some events may spend the money on things the DPL would have approved
anyway (e.g. paying travel expenses for Debian people who volunteer,
give talks, operate a booth)

- if the event team is able to take a chunk of Debian money and
administer the expenses this may be more efficient than Debian's own
trust organizations working through the individual expenses

- sometimes the event teams add extra value too, e.g. at FOSSASIA they
were able to have Debian stand-up banners produced as part of a bigger
order.  Other examples may include events who can provide equipment for
a Debian booth.

- maybe Debian could even publish some criteria and invite organizers of
events to apply for grants?  E.g. Debian offers $US 1,000 to any event
that does A, B and C, with a maximum of X sponsorships per year.

Regards,

Daniel

Re: Inappropriate content on planet.debian.org and need of evolution of documentation and CoC

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 14635 March 1977, shirish शिरीष wrote:
> Thank you for your fine words. The same goes for everybody else as
> well. This is going to be a bit long-winded so please excuse.

Is anything you ever wrote short? I have yet to see the day where you
produce output thats less than a dozen paragraphs. And thats straight to
the point instead of retelling the whole story of earth and humankind to
set a base that in the end doesn't appear to be neccessary. I skip most
of your stuff usually because its just way too long.

> Cut to 2016 and after South Africa trip, I had promised myself as well
> as others on the debconf-discuss that I will share some of the
> highlights of the trip. I found photos really capture the moment and
> once you start describing a certain photo you relive the moment all
> over again. For this purposes, I did get access to debconf gallery
> page but its usage is only for debconf images.

And that stuff is good, and while it all was lengthy, it actually was a
nice read.

> One of the first lessons I was taught the importance of having both
> pictures and short paragraphs.

Short paragraphs alone don't make it better if you end up with a million
of them. Turns out to be the same long text in the end.

> Now as far as me writing technical content about Debian on p.d.o. is
> concerned, that's a laugh. I do not think that there is anything I
> write technically which will be news either to Debian or/and DD's. In
> fact, if people looked at the itsfoss.com articles they will find most
> are beginner-friendly articles.

And Planet is not a forum where everything must be news to DDs/DMs and
gosh, beware, if we don't learn something new technical every day on
Planet, day is bad. Not at all.

> Somebody shared that ranting about Debian is fine. I disagree with
> that.

But of course ranting is fine.

> Having said that, I know now its not alright to have anything even
> remotedly talk about sex  at p.d.o. at all.

And thats lets me wonder if you understood what you got told about the
one post from you that got this all started. No, talking about sex is
NOT forbidden. Thats not what you got told. Its also not "must be safe
for 12 year olds". 

The fine point is to do it in a way that will not get fellow Debianites
into trouble (and to not have sex talk as your only content...). A
picture like was in your post is able to get people into trouble, some
employers do have pretty strict rules. Describing an act (in a halfway
human way, not like writing a porn movie seller) won't (as much) make
trouble.

(And then add on top that we are a pretty huge community with a whole
load of different views on life and all its matters. Keep in mind that
Planet may be read by all of us, so try to not be demeaning in your
writings).

-- 
bye, Joerg