Re: producing, distributing, storing Debian t-shirts
On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 2:01 AM, Luca Filipozzi wrote: > Debian should avoid being in the hard good business. > > If we want to make it easy for people to obtain Debian-branded / > Debian-benefiting products, we could go with a print-on-demand service such as > https://scalablepress.com/ or https://printaura.com/, using a storefront we > put > ourselves, use theirs, or use a 3rd party such as https://www.etsy.com. There are already various vendors of Debian-branded products here: https://www.debian.org/misc/merchandise As well as the inevitable community production of Debian-branded products: https://wiki.debian.org/Merchandise -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
Re: producing, distributing, storing Debian t-shirts
Daniel Pocock dijo [Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 01:53:49PM +0200]: > > Hi all, > > On several occasions people have asked me about Debian t-shirts and the > polo shirts when I'm going to an event or after seeing a video where I > am wearing the polo shirt. > > At some events there are opportunities to mass-produce things in > collaboration with the event team, lowering costs and avoiding the cost > of shipping into the event. For example, the FOSSASIA team produced a > lot of roll-up banners and three Debian banners were included in the > batch. Similar deals can lower the cost of t-shirt production, > especially when the event takes place in a location where costs are lower. > > A few people have expressed concern about the production of t-shirts though: > (...) Just my experience here: Many years ago, my then-couple and me ran a textile printing small-scale workshop. She still runs it, and she will print DebConf's shirts this year (as she has repeatedly done - DebConf 6, 7, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15 and 17 shirts all went through her hands :) ). Of course, back in the day, we printed many shirts related to Free Software projects. We even made some minor trademark violations which I openly acknowledge as such (i.e. we printed IIRC 50 shirts with the Firefox and the Mozilla logos for the Firefox 1.0 release party... Only to find out later they did have a trademark policy... Oh, we were young and innocent :-] ) Anyway, beyond the memory trip... T-shirts are *awesome* for promotion. Good material T-shirts much more so - I still have in very good condition most of my home-printed shirts... With our production starting in 2004. I did take a bag of shirts to several conferences (several local ones, and at least I took a case with probably 50 to DebConf5 in Helsinki). Thing is, sadly, I hate manning the sales booth. Selling shirts is a quick way to make money. If you print in "cheapish" countries such as mine (Mexico), a very good quality shirt+print would cost around US$3 if my numbers are right. I am *stumped* to find ~US$30 shirts for sale in the USA; I have bought a couple of debian.ch shirts (which are great!), but it's hard for me to understand where the price comes from. Of course, then I remember what is said about .ch... Anyway, if any of you is interested: We have found for DebConf that if most often makes a lot of economic sense to print shirts in Mexico and ship them via the usual courier services; if any of you is interested, even in relatively short runs of products, I'm sure Gaby will be happy to provide good work and material (and, of course, I can provide the contact if needed). You mention "economies of scale" - It does not really matter. I am not up to date with prices, but they should have not moved much... The cost for making one silk-screen original (for a workshop that does _not_ have their own development lab) is about US$5 per color. Shirt prices go down at around the 10, 25 and 50-items, but beyond there, you won't gain much. It usually makes no sense, so, to make big print runs and lug / move around stock. It's best to just print as you go, and that way even just take "current" designs to each event (plus some bits of stock you have left over)... If I were to offer you, for very cheap, our shirts for Sarge or Etch, I don't think you'd be very interested! That would become lost money. Greetings, signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: producing, distributing, storing Debian t-shirts
On 04/30/2017 10:05 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: > On 30/04/17 21:54, Sebastiaan Couwenberg wrote: >> On 04/30/2017 09:37 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: >>> On 30/04/17 14:18, Sebastiaan Couwenberg wrote: On 04/30/2017 01:53 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: > - how do people view the distribution of merchandise, is the primary > goal fundraising or is it about brand exposure? There are more reasons than these two. For the t-shirts that I had made and sold at the T-DOSE & FOSDEM conferences the primary motivation was user demand. Especially at T-DOSE I got several questions if we had T-shirts and had to tell them no, this resulted in having shirts made the next year. There is also a lot of demand for laptop stickers, which I haven't had made yet, but am considering. >>> >>> Let me put it another way: when you are trying to meet that demand from >>> people, do you make that effort because you want to raise money or >>> because of brand, community, etc? >> >> I do it as a service to our community. >> >> Debian doesn't need to sell merchandise to raise money, the project gets >> more in donations than it spends. > > That's exactly what I was getting at with that question, I suspect most > people will agree any merchandising is not for fundraising. Not for Debian. For projects that don't get as many donations it can be a good way to raise money. Buying an t-shirt is a nice way to contribute financially to a project and get something tangible in return. > Taking that point further, if the goal is community, do people feel that > merchandizing should break even or that it can actually be subsidized? > I've heard different opinions on that from different people already. I don't think people should subsidize merchandise unless they want to (e.g. have plenty of disposable income to burn). In practice the price charged for merchandise tends to be the cost price rounded up to avoid small change. This little profit is then donated to the project. Making a profit should not be the goal of Debian merchandise in my opinion. Kind Regards, Bas -- GPG Key ID: 4096R/6750F10AE88D4AF1 Fingerprint: 8182 DE41 7056 408D 6146 50D1 6750 F10A E88D 4AF1
Re: producing, distributing, storing Debian t-shirts
On 30/04/17 21:54, Sebastiaan Couwenberg wrote: > On 04/30/2017 09:37 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: >> On 30/04/17 14:18, Sebastiaan Couwenberg wrote: >>> On 04/30/2017 01:53 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: - how do people view the distribution of merchandise, is the primary goal fundraising or is it about brand exposure? >>> >>> There are more reasons than these two. >>> >>> For the t-shirts that I had made and sold at the T-DOSE & FOSDEM >>> conferences the primary motivation was user demand. Especially at T-DOSE >>> I got several questions if we had T-shirts and had to tell them no, this >>> resulted in having shirts made the next year. >>> >>> There is also a lot of demand for laptop stickers, which I haven't had >>> made yet, but am considering. >> >> Let me put it another way: when you are trying to meet that demand from >> people, do you make that effort because you want to raise money or >> because of brand, community, etc? > > I do it as a service to our community. > > Debian doesn't need to sell merchandise to raise money, the project gets > more in donations than it spends. > That's exactly what I was getting at with that question, I suspect most people will agree any merchandising is not for fundraising. Taking that point further, if the goal is community, do people feel that merchandizing should break even or that it can actually be subsidized? I've heard different opinions on that from different people already. Regards, Daniel
Re: producing, distributing, storing Debian t-shirts
On 04/30/2017 09:37 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: > On 30/04/17 14:18, Sebastiaan Couwenberg wrote: >> On 04/30/2017 01:53 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: >>> - how do people view the distribution of merchandise, is the primary >>> goal fundraising or is it about brand exposure? >> >> There are more reasons than these two. >> >> For the t-shirts that I had made and sold at the T-DOSE & FOSDEM >> conferences the primary motivation was user demand. Especially at T-DOSE >> I got several questions if we had T-shirts and had to tell them no, this >> resulted in having shirts made the next year. >> >> There is also a lot of demand for laptop stickers, which I haven't had >> made yet, but am considering. > > Let me put it another way: when you are trying to meet that demand from > people, do you make that effort because you want to raise money or > because of brand, community, etc? I do it as a service to our community. Debian doesn't need to sell merchandise to raise money, the project gets more in donations than it spends. Kind Regards, Bas -- GPG Key ID: 4096R/6750F10AE88D4AF1 Fingerprint: 8182 DE41 7056 408D 6146 50D1 6750 F10A E88D 4AF1
Re: producing, distributing, storing Debian t-shirts
On 30/04/17 14:18, Sebastiaan Couwenberg wrote: > On 04/30/2017 01:53 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: >> - how do people view the distribution of merchandise, is the primary >> goal fundraising or is it about brand exposure? > > There are more reasons than these two. > > For the t-shirts that I had made and sold at the T-DOSE & FOSDEM > conferences the primary motivation was user demand. Especially at T-DOSE > I got several questions if we had T-shirts and had to tell them no, this > resulted in having shirts made the next year. > > There is also a lot of demand for laptop stickers, which I haven't had > made yet, but am considering. > Let me put it another way: when you are trying to meet that demand from people, do you make that effort because you want to raise money or because of brand, community, etc? >> - would it be reasonable for 1% - 2% of Debian's reserves to be tied up >> in slow moving inventory items like t-shirts that take up to a year to >> fully turnover? As the reserves are mostly kept in cash Debian probably >> loses at least that much to inflation each year anyway. > > This is tricky, since Debian is non-profit and selling merch can be > considered a for-profit activity. "Non-profit" means that Debian does not distribute surplus profits back to people such as shareholders. It does not mean that Debian can not make a profit on the sale of a t-shirt, as long as that profit is re-invested in the organization. > Having Debian funds available for merchandise will lower the barrier for > Debian people to to have it made since they don't have to invest their > own money. > > Kind Regards, > > Bas >
Re: producing, distributing, storing Debian t-shirts
On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 02:18:11PM +0200, Sebastiaan Couwenberg wrote: > On 04/30/2017 01:53 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: > > - would it be reasonable for 1% - 2% of Debian's reserves to be tied up > > in slow moving inventory items like t-shirts that take up to a year to > > fully turnover? As the reserves are mostly kept in cash Debian probably > > loses at least that much to inflation each year anyway. > > This is tricky, since Debian is non-profit and selling merch can be > considered a for-profit activity. > > Having Debian funds available for merchandise will lower the barrier for > Debian people to to have it made since they don't have to invest their > own money. Debian should avoid being in the hard good business. If we want to make it easy for people to obtain Debian-branded / Debian-benefiting products, we could go with a print-on-demand service such as https://scalablepress.com/ or https://printaura.com/, using a storefront we put ourselves, use theirs, or use a 3rd party such as https://www.etsy.com. If this is to be done as 'Debian', then we will need SPI's involvement. -- Luca Filipozzi http://www.crowdrise.com/SupportDebian
Re: producing, distributing, storing Debian t-shirts
On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 01:53:49PM +0200, Daniel Pocock wrote: > > Hi all, > > On several occasions people have asked me about Debian t-shirts and the > polo shirts when I'm going to an event or after seeing a video where I > am wearing the polo shirt. > > At some events there are opportunities to mass-produce things in > collaboration with the event team, lowering costs and avoiding the cost > of shipping into the event. For example, the FOSSASIA team produced a > lot of roll-up banners and three Debian banners were included in the > batch. Similar deals can lower the cost of t-shirt production, > especially when the event takes place in a location where costs are lower. > I'd seriously suggest you chat to Steve, Phil Hands and others who've been involved in this over the years. It's not quite a no-win scenario but it's probably not far off. Get good quality polo shirts, for example, that will lst for a few years - and someone will wear the same shirt for a long time, to multiple events or whatever - but you can't then sell them another shirt quickly. With the numbers of shirts you can reasonably sell in five years or so, it rapidly becomes a large outlay of cash up front for a small, delayed return. Debian tartan, even more so - high production cost and will wear for many years - but still desirable :) > A few people have expressed concern about the production of t-shirts though: > > - production cost and difficulty of transporting in luggage, both > relatively high compared to the cost of stickers and some other merchandise > > - lack of volunteers willing to handle and dispatch inventory (this was > raised by debian.ch after trying to retail some online) > Debian.ch did one very cool piece of merchandise - customised Victorinox knives with Debian logo. Fantastic, useful - and potentially illegal to carry but a lovely thing. I think it took a huge time to organise the logistics although the cost wasn't huge since the manufacturers do this regularly and the retooling isn't massive the overhead was high. > Personally, I feel that clothing makes a particularly strong impression > as people only wear one t-shirt at a time and if they choose to wear a > Debian t-shirt, that is a strong endorsement of the Debian project. > Conversely, if there is an absence of Debian t-shirts in the community > (or if Debian was to produce too many shirts that all look the same) > people wear other things. > > I also feel that the relative effort for a developer to organize a batch > of 100 is not much more than the effort of producing 10 or 20. > See above :( > This brings me to a few questions: > > - how do people view the distribution of merchandise, is the primary > goal fundraising or is it about brand exposure? > Debian isn't "a brand" per se - and look back years in the mailing list about logos, copyrights etc. - maybe the DPL may have a different view? > - would it be reasonable for 1% - 2% of Debian's reserves to be tied up > in slow moving inventory items like t-shirts that take up to a year to > fully turnover? As the reserves are mostly kept in cash Debian probably > loses at least that much to inflation each year anyway. > Some of SPI's revenues - as the umbrella body that handles finances - come from providing tax/admin/donation handling for other projects. They can best handle cash - handling physical inventory / accounting for it / exchange rates / writing down storage costs might be too much. > - what is the best strategy for production and distribution? Would it > be cheaper and less effort for volunteers if 10,000 shirts were simply > produced in China and divided up between every developer willing to > distribute them within their local community at their own pace and > without formal inventory controls? Or is it better to produce small > batches when the opportunity arises? 10,000 shirts might be the project sales for thirty years if you're unlucky :( > > - what should be produced? In low quantities we get very standard > t-shirts. In higher quantities we may have more choices of fabrics, > more distinctive styles and printing techniques that last longer. We > could even produce some rolls of Debian fabric for people to have > tailor-made shirts, table cloth, curtains, etc. > > - what aspects of production are people willing to volunteer for? For > example, some people have volunteered to create t-shirt designs and > other people have volunteered for Debian booths at events. What other > tasks do people need to volunteer for, e.g. keeping inventory, and are > there volunteers? > > - has anybody looked at any strategies to completely outsource > merchandising or to do such things jointly with other groups to get > economies of scale? For example, at some events the Debian t-shirts can > be retailed on a table run by the local community without developers > needing to be at a booth, all we may need to do is bring the stock and > take it away again later. > It
Re: producing, distributing, storing Debian t-shirts
On Sun, 30 Apr 2017, Sebastiaan Couwenberg wrote: > There is also a lot of demand for laptop stickers, which I haven't had > made yet, but am considering. I was hoping to go in with a group of people on some hexagonal laptop stickers, myself. -- Don Armstrong https://www.donarmstrong.com A Bill of Rights that means what the majority wants it to mean is worthless. -- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia
Re: producing, distributing, storing Debian t-shirts
On 04/30/2017 01:53 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: > - how do people view the distribution of merchandise, is the primary > goal fundraising or is it about brand exposure? There are more reasons than these two. For the t-shirts that I had made and sold at the T-DOSE & FOSDEM conferences the primary motivation was user demand. Especially at T-DOSE I got several questions if we had T-shirts and had to tell them no, this resulted in having shirts made the next year. There is also a lot of demand for laptop stickers, which I haven't had made yet, but am considering. > - would it be reasonable for 1% - 2% of Debian's reserves to be tied up > in slow moving inventory items like t-shirts that take up to a year to > fully turnover? As the reserves are mostly kept in cash Debian probably > loses at least that much to inflation each year anyway. This is tricky, since Debian is non-profit and selling merch can be considered a for-profit activity. Having Debian funds available for merchandise will lower the barrier for Debian people to to have it made since they don't have to invest their own money. Kind Regards, Bas -- GPG Key ID: 4096R/6750F10AE88D4AF1 Fingerprint: 8182 DE41 7056 408D 6146 50D1 6750 F10A E88D 4AF1
producing, distributing, storing Debian t-shirts
Hi all, On several occasions people have asked me about Debian t-shirts and the polo shirts when I'm going to an event or after seeing a video where I am wearing the polo shirt. At some events there are opportunities to mass-produce things in collaboration with the event team, lowering costs and avoiding the cost of shipping into the event. For example, the FOSSASIA team produced a lot of roll-up banners and three Debian banners were included in the batch. Similar deals can lower the cost of t-shirt production, especially when the event takes place in a location where costs are lower. A few people have expressed concern about the production of t-shirts though: - production cost and difficulty of transporting in luggage, both relatively high compared to the cost of stickers and some other merchandise - lack of volunteers willing to handle and dispatch inventory (this was raised by debian.ch after trying to retail some online) Personally, I feel that clothing makes a particularly strong impression as people only wear one t-shirt at a time and if they choose to wear a Debian t-shirt, that is a strong endorsement of the Debian project. Conversely, if there is an absence of Debian t-shirts in the community (or if Debian was to produce too many shirts that all look the same) people wear other things. I also feel that the relative effort for a developer to organize a batch of 100 is not much more than the effort of producing 10 or 20. This brings me to a few questions: - how do people view the distribution of merchandise, is the primary goal fundraising or is it about brand exposure? - would it be reasonable for 1% - 2% of Debian's reserves to be tied up in slow moving inventory items like t-shirts that take up to a year to fully turnover? As the reserves are mostly kept in cash Debian probably loses at least that much to inflation each year anyway. - what is the best strategy for production and distribution? Would it be cheaper and less effort for volunteers if 10,000 shirts were simply produced in China and divided up between every developer willing to distribute them within their local community at their own pace and without formal inventory controls? Or is it better to produce small batches when the opportunity arises? - what should be produced? In low quantities we get very standard t-shirts. In higher quantities we may have more choices of fabrics, more distinctive styles and printing techniques that last longer. We could even produce some rolls of Debian fabric for people to have tailor-made shirts, table cloth, curtains, etc. - what aspects of production are people willing to volunteer for? For example, some people have volunteered to create t-shirt designs and other people have volunteered for Debian booths at events. What other tasks do people need to volunteer for, e.g. keeping inventory, and are there volunteers? - has anybody looked at any strategies to completely outsource merchandising or to do such things jointly with other groups to get economies of scale? For example, at some events the Debian t-shirts can be retailed on a table run by the local community without developers needing to be at a booth, all we may need to do is bring the stock and take it away again later. Regards, Daniel
