Re: Community Team - where we want to go
On 2019/10/10 02:40, Norbert Preining wrote: > As "just another group of Debian Developers" I am not sure how you can > usurp the right to exegesis of the CoC? What about if another group XYZ > (like the Debian TeX Team) decides that our responsability is > Interpreting the Code of Conduct Yep, any group in Debian can read and interpret the Debian CoC, likely, probably anyone who ever reads it might have their own interpretation of the CoC. What the community team is effectively doing here is just offering a service to do so, they're not imposing an authority of how every CoC violation should be handled. Instead, if you as part of any leadership role in Debian (maybe the DPL, maybe a member of a team) are seeking some feedback, you can use the community team as a sounding board to get their view on it. At least, that's my understanding. > Same old wine in new bottles ... Some wine'ing has gotten old a really long time ago. -Jonathan -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org ⠈⠳⣄ Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.
Re: Community Team - where we want to go
Hi On Wed, 09 Oct 2019, Steve McIntyre wrote: > Name: Community Team > The team itself has no direct powers to enforce any decision, and > merely acts as an advisory body. It will aim to respond in a timely > Responsibilities include > * Interpreting the Code of Conduct; As "just another group of Debian Developers" I am not sure how you can usurp the right to exegesis of the CoC? What about if another group XYZ (like the Debian TeX Team) decides that our responsability is Interpreting the Code of Conduct ? Same old people under new name ... Same old wine in new bottles ... Nothing has changed. Best Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Debian and Non-Free Services
> On 10/5/19 1:10 AM, Charles Plessy wrote: > > > > I make this comment as the person who some years ago took the initiative > > to take over the "Debian" Github group, that was more or less abandonned > > and apparently not controlled by somebody related to Debian. It was a > > definitely a bitter experience that I do not feel to reproduce... Le Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 04:10:12PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz a écrit : > > does that still exist? Might make sense to share some work there. Not > sure, though, with so many github haters out there, I might want to keep > my stuff under my own account which makes it easier to stop whatever you like here> people from doing not so sane things. Hi Bernd, no pressure at the moment. It was painful to make something new happen, but now it is low-maintenance routine, that I share with Yaroslav. Still I would not mind be replaced. The workflow is to get GPG-signed emails, check the web of trust, and add people to the group. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Akano, Uruma, Okinawa, Japan
Community Team - where we want to go
Hi folks, We've had a lot of conversations this year about where the Anti-Harassment (now *Community*) Team should be going: what we're trying to do, and the relationship we'd like to have with the rest of the project and the wider community. Within the team, we've brainstormed about this and come up with the following to describe our role and responsibilities. We'd like to discuss it now with the rest of the project. Feedback welcome please! Name: Community Team Role The goal of the Community Team (CT) is to help Debian be a welcoming place, focusing on response to difficult or contentious communications, as well as other negative experiences and Code of Conduct violations. It aims to encourage and foster a respectful, productive, and inclusive atmosphere throughout the Debian community. The team itself has no direct powers to enforce any decision, and merely acts as an advisory body. It will aim to respond in a timely matter when consulted, and to do so in a consistent way. The (CT) is the team responsible for interpreting the Code of Conduct (CoC) when necessary. The team will respond to concerns raised by members of the project or people interacting with them, working with individuals to help them. The team recognises that technical development can lead to arguments and passionate discussions. Where desired, the team will work with contributors to help them express disagreement without violating the CoC. When people do breach the CoC, the team will give guidance on better ways to interact in the future. We will attempt to consult with those on all sides of issues when possible. Nevertheless, protection of the vulnerable and the community as a whole is the ultimate goal of the team. If things do not work out, and in cases with a pattern of repeating problems, the team will raise concerns with other teams as appropriate. Members of the community should feel empowered to seek counsel when they have doubts about the CoC, or when they feel it is being violated. The team normally acts reactively, but might also try to intervene when individual members witness a problematic situation. Finally, the CT will also work in combination with event organisers to deploy incident response teams on the ground and ensure that the CoC is observed for Debian events. We break this down in more concrete terms: Responsibilities include * Interpreting the Code of Conduct; * Responding in a timely manner to incidents reported by members of the Debian community and those interacting with the Debian project; * Contacting individual contributors about their behavior when it is considered to be in violation of the Debian Code of Conduct; * Providing support and guidance for event incident response teams; * Offering advice and guidance for policies and implementation around community standards and guidelines; * Being available as a resource for those looking for content review of communications or who have questions about how possible actions may fit with the Code of Conduct; * In extreme incidents or after repeated harmful behaviour or Code of Conduct violations, writing reports for relevant teams (e.g. Planet admins, listmasters, DAM), to summarise relevant incidents along with analysis and suggested possible courses of action; and * Where there might be a Conflict of Interest, individual members of the team will be expected to inform the rest of the team, about it and recuse themselves from relevant discussion. Examples of team activities === * Releasing regular reports on incidents reported and the responses of the team; * Providing recommendations on communications when recommendations are sought by members of the community; * Quick response time alerting reporters that action might be taken; * Holding regular meetings (and emergency meetings, when relevant), to discuss incidents reported and actions to be taken; * Writing and providing reports to other teams concerning incidents or habitual behaviors; and * Proactively writing emails to those who habitually make the community a hostile place, informing them that their behavior is harmful to the community, that action may be taken in the future, and that the Community team is a resource to provide explanation or guidance. Examples of things the team does *not* do = * Remove blogs from community forums like Planet Debian * Ban users and contributors from email lists or other communication channels; * Take preventative action on mailing lists when an incident report does not come in, excluding general reminders to email lists about the Code of Conduct; * Mediate communications or conversations between individuals; or * Take punitive measures or actions against members of the Community. Members of the Community Team may of course participate in
Re: I think We're Done: Debian and Non-Free Services
> "Thomas" == Thomas Goirand writes: Thomas> Not discussing the issue itself, just (respectfully) Thomas> commenting on your reply. Thomas> If there's no valid reason to prefer Github, then it would Thomas> be very easy to just enforce the use only Salsa. Therefore, Thomas> I'm just trying to understand what the incentives are. Your Thomas> reply saying "because they can" sounds a bit silly to me, Thomas> and isn't very helpful... I understand this desire, and it sounds like you've gotten some valuable feedback. One of the things I'm supposed to do under Constitution 4.1 (9) is lead and facilitate discussions. We've received significant feedback on debian-devel that long mailing list threads have a cost to a number of members in our community. One of the things I noticed while compiling the recent Git summary is that the discussion of Github and non-free services took up much more space in the discussion than anything else. Even though we knew very early on that we weren't going to be able to change anything. We've reached the point where we need to be done with this thread both here and on debian-devel. If you want to continue learning about Github usage in Debian I recommend reaching out respectfully to individuals who have participated in the discussion and asking them if they would be willing to help you continue to learn. I'm sure we'll revisit this all some day. Technologies, usage patterns, etc change. Perhaps some cross-project service on a free platform will gain momentum. But for now, we're done.
Re: Debian and Non-Free Services
On 10/9/19 4:16 PM, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: > > > On 10/5/19 11:42 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: >>> No, it just means "This is the canonical location for the packaging >>> repository." Nothing more. There is no information about the workflow >>> preferred by the maintainer. >> >> So, if someone is not using Github's "advanced" features, like pull >> requests and so on, why that person would care about using Github more >> than using Salsa? > > because they are free to do so. > If pornhub would offer a git server with more features than github and > gitlab, people would probably start to use it, too. Free people in a > free world are free to use whatever they like to, even if you think that > the service they like to use is not free or is not your taste or > whatever else. > > If you don't like it, clone it, push it, mirror it. You are free to do so. > > But please stop telling other people what they are supposed to do or not. > > Git is like your favorite car. You can buy one from VW with > maybe-broken-software, it will serve you well until it dies. > Or you can build your own "free" car, it will serve you well until it dies. > > Would you like it that various people tell you not to drive your lovely > VW because it is not free? Not discussing the issue itself, just (respectfully) commenting on your reply. If there's no valid reason to prefer Github, then it would be very easy to just enforce the use only Salsa. Therefore, I'm just trying to understand what the incentives are. Your reply saying "because they can" sounds a bit silly to me, and isn't very helpful... Cheers, Thomas Goirand (zigo)
Re: Debian and Non-Free Services
On 10/5/19 11:42 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: >> No, it just means "This is the canonical location for the packaging >> repository." Nothing more. There is no information about the workflow >> preferred by the maintainer. > > So, if someone is not using Github's "advanced" features, like pull > requests and so on, why that person would care about using Github more > than using Salsa? because they are free to do so. If pornhub would offer a git server with more features than github and gitlab, people would probably start to use it, too. Free people in a free world are free to use whatever they like to, even if you think that the service they like to use is not free or is not your taste or whatever else. If you don't like it, clone it, push it, mirror it. You are free to do so. But please stop telling other people what they are supposed to do or not. Git is like your favorite car. You can buy one from VW with maybe-broken-software, it will serve you well until it dies. Or you can build your own "free" car, it will serve you well until it dies. Would you like it that various people tell you not to drive your lovely VW because it is not free? -- Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F
Re: Debian and Non-Free Services
Hi, On 10/5/19 1:10 AM, Charles Plessy wrote: > I make this comment as the person who some years ago took the initiative > to take over the "Debian" Github group, that was more or less abandonned > and apparently not controlled by somebody related to Debian. It was a > definitely a bitter experience that I do not feel to reproduce... does that still exist? Might make sense to share some work there. Not sure, though, with so many github haters out there, I might want to keep my stuff under my own account which makes it easier to stop people from doing not so sane things. Brend -- Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F
Re: Debian and Non-Free Services
Hi, út 8. 10. 2019 v 10:06 odesílatel Michael Lustfield napsal: > + I can create branches that won't let me force push (git push -f) > + I can create projects that let me push to anything except master > https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/protected_branches.html -- Best regards Ondřej Nový
