Re: Do we still value contributions?

[Xavier]

Le 25/12/2019 à 21:18, Charles Plessy a écrit :
> Le Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 11:11:43AM -0500, Scott Kitterman a écrit :
>>
>> More generally, New is being processed as fast as it can given available 
>> volunteer time.  Any delays are not reflective of a lack of value placed on 
>> people's contributions.
> 
> Hi Scott, John, everybody,
> 
> In the past I proposed a system of peer review to pre-screen the
> packages that are in the NEW queue.
> 
> https://wiki.debian.org/CopyrightReview
> 
> It never took off but maybe some process along these lines could help
> reducing the time needed by the FTP Masters to process the packages ?
> 
> Have a nice day,
> 
> Charles

Hi,

I think it's a good way. We could perhaps replace peer review by Team
review when this (language) team exists. Ftpmaster could trust one or
two people in each team and use their review to simplify. Of course,
nobody can trust their own work.

Cheers,
Xavier

possibly exhausted ftp-masters (Re: Do we still value contributions?

[Mo Zhou]

Hi,

Some personal opinions as one of the current batch of FTP trainees.

* The ftp team might be in a (somewhat) negative loop from the
  sustainable development aspect.

Let's first list a couple of facts:
(0) There are a small group of DDs working as ftp-master. Their time and
energy are limited.
(1) ftp-master is doing hard work, reviewing NEW packages, processing
RM bugs, maintaining dak, and recruiting new members to expand the team.
All of these are not trivial things.

(0)+(1) means that: the time that FTP spend on recruiting is quite
limited. Then how "limited" is it?

+ I seriously explained about the slow NEW queue process 2 years ago.
+ I joined the ftp team as trainee about 1 year ago, after 6 months
  since sending out the application mail.
+ the preliminary assessment of the current batch of trainee is still
  not available.
^ My (possibly biased) experience shows that the recruitment process is
  quite slow.

What concerns me most is, what if the FTP team's "quit rate" gets larger
than "expansion rate"? You know what it means from a long-term
perspective.

---

However, accelerating the recruitment process of ftp team looks quite
difficult to all participants, including the ftp-masters and the trainees:

ftp-master:
 * time and energy is limited. doesn't have enough resource to provide
   too much feedbacks to the trainee
 * wants to make sure every new member will be qualified enough to take
   this important role.

trainee:
 * limited time and energy. generally not able to produce a large amount
   of reviews to the NEW packages in a short period of time
 * lacks feed back. they don't know how are they actually doing in
   reviewing the NEW packages.

So accelerating the recruitment process is not easy, given that we will
not lower our quality standards.

---

I think Sean shares some similar feelings.

FTP team shouts for help, and the team seems too "exhausted" to even
accept help ...

I respect all my fellow developers and their endeavor. In this mail
I'm simply describing the fact I saw.


On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 11:45:28PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
> On 2019/12/24 20:08, John Goerzen wrote:
> 
> > But at the same time, I feel that the project as a whole isn't really
> > taking this problem very seriously.
> 
> That is true, probably mostly because many people don't really
> understand that there is a problem. The NEW queue waits are tough, but
> there are also the following which are also often in serious need of
> attention:
> 
>  * Patches attached to bug reports
>  * Request for sponsorships
>  * Merge requests
> 
> Energy put into all areas like that end up paying for itself because it
> helps energize and attract new contributors.
> 
> I try to keep up with sponsorship backlogs (making good strides but
> can't really keep up), which at the same time adds load to the NEW queue
> (11 of my and sponsoree packages stuck in there right now), which I feel
> kind of bad for so I've been trying to join as an FTP team trainee too
> to help out there (which I should probably try to follow-up again but
> that's also been a bit frustrating).
> 
> I think many will agree with you that we should do better in all those
> areas, especially the NEW queue, but change is difficult and in itself
> takes time. In a commercial setting it would probably be easier to
> create incentives to motivate staff to do more review kind of work, but
> I suppose in Debian it's seen as somewhat unglamorous work and we don't
> have many methods to incentivise contributors.
> 
> In particular I think it's important to support events like bug
> squashing parties because it's one of the few things that we can do, and
> encourage things like patch reviews, sponsoring and NEW queue reviews at
> these events and maybe even thank all the people who participate in
> these on a monthly basis in bits from Debian so that maybe this work can
> be highlighted more as something that we do value and might encourage
> more people to get involved there.
> 
> -Jonathan
> 
> -- 
>   ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
>   ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
>   ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
>   ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.
> 

Re: Do we still value contributions?

[John Goerzen]

On Wed, Dec 25 2019, Charles Plessy wrote:

> Le Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 11:11:43AM -0500, Scott Kitterman a écrit :
>> 
>> More generally, New is being processed as fast as it can given available 
>> volunteer time.  Any delays are not reflective of a lack of value placed on 
>> people's contributions.
>
> Hi Scott, John, everybody,
>
> In the past I proposed a system of peer review to pre-screen the
> packages that are in the NEW queue.
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/CopyrightReview
>
> It never took off but maybe some process along these lines could help
> reducing the time needed by the FTP Masters to process the packages ?

I like the way you're going with this.  It would make great sense to
spread the load on things like this, to people that may be able to
contribute in this area but not necessarily to managing the archive
itself, etc.  There's no particular reason that those tasks must be
combined.

John

Re: Do we still value contributions?

[John Goerzen]

On Wed, Dec 25 2019, Jonathan Carter wrote:

> On 2019/12/24 20:08, John Goerzen wrote:
> 
>> But at the same time, I feel that the project as a whole isn't really
>> taking this problem very seriously.
>
> That is true, probably mostly because many people don't really
> understand that there is a problem. The NEW queue waits are tough, but

Very good observation.  I didn't realize it myself until I had something
in NEW, which I haven't had for a very long time.

> I think many will agree with you that we should do better in all those
> areas, especially the NEW queue, but change is difficult and in itself
> takes time. In a commercial setting it would probably be easier to
> create incentives to motivate staff to do more review kind of work, but
> I suppose in Debian it's seen as somewhat unglamorous work and we don't
> have many methods to incentivise contributors.

Completely agreed.

> In particular I think it's important to support events like bug
> squashing parties because it's one of the few things that we can do, and
> encourage things like patch reviews, sponsoring and NEW queue reviews at
> these events and maybe even thank all the people who participate in
> these on a monthly basis in bits from Debian so that maybe this work can
> be highlighted more as something that we do value and might encourage
> more people to get involved there.

That is a fantastic idea.  If we could open up these reviews to let more
DDs participate, that would be fantastic.  No doubt some of the tools at
https://wiki.debian.org/CopyrightReviewTools could help people with
this.

John

Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

[Russ Allbery]

Jonathan Carter  writes:

> I understand the nature of trolls and not wanting to feed them, but it
> is entirely possible to denounce them without giving them fuel, even
> though it can be like walking a tightrope at times.

It also matters who the person is.

A troll in the most classic Usenet sense is someone who isn't part of the
community who drops in to post something provocative to try to get a
reaction.  The definition has broadened over time, but that's the sense in
which that maxim was originally developed.  When faced with someone from
the outside with no investment in the community who is just trying to rile
people up for amusement, not reacting usually means they'll get bored and
go somewhere else, and was often the fastest way to end the disruption.
Hence that saying.

Someone who is part of the community, and certainly someone who is a
member of the project, is not a troll by that definition, and I think it's
very questionable whether the maxim applies.  They're already invested in
the community.  They're unlikely to just go away if they don't get a
reaction, and may not have the same motives as someone just trying to
provoke reactions for entertainment.  Ignoring them is less an effective
way to minimize disruption and a lot more like letting your uncle go off
on a tirade of abuse against your cousin.

Also, it's worth thinking about the fundamental mismatch between welcoming
someone as part of our community and saying they're a troll who should be
ignored (not fed).  I don't think those two things are compatible.
Members of the community are by definition people who we don't want to
ignore and don't want to assume are just poking people for their own
entertainment.

If they *are* doing that, they should be shown the door.  Harassing other
people for one's own personal amusement is abuse.  It is destructive and
awful behavior that will hurt a community deeply if it is tolerated.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)  

Re: Do we still value contributions?

[Utkarsh Gupta]

Hiya,

On 26/12/19 3:15 am, Jonathan Carter wrote:
> On 2019/12/24 20:08, John Goerzen wrote:
> 
>> But at the same time, I feel that the project as a whole isn't really
>> taking this problem very seriously.
> That is true, probably mostly because many people don't really
> understand that there is a problem. The NEW queue waits are tough, but
> there are also the following which are also often in serious need of
> attention:
>
>  * Patches attached to bug reports
>  * Request for sponsorships
>  * Merge requests
>
> Energy put into all areas like that end up paying for itself because it
> helps energize and attract new contributors.

Seconded; a hard agree.

> 
>
> I think many will agree with you that we should do better in all those
> areas, especially the NEW queue, but change is difficult and in itself
> takes time. In a commercial setting it would probably be easier to
> create incentives to motivate staff to do more review kind of work, but
> I suppose in Debian it's seen as somewhat unglamorous work and we don't
> have many methods to incentivise contributors.

I wish we had a workaround over it.
Perhaps I'd be happy to see more people getting involved in
reviewing/processing uploads from the queue.
Would the FTP team be willing to expand? Though I don't see a problem in
it, whatsoever.

> In particular I think it's important to support events like bug
> squashing parties because it's one of the few things that we can do, and
> encourage things like patch reviews, sponsoring and NEW queue reviews at
> these events and maybe even thank all the people who participate in
> these on a monthly basis in bits from Debian so that maybe this work can
> be highlighted more as something that we do value and might encourage
> more people to get involved there.

Oh, right. I have seen a lot of reports and the amazing work that the
teams do during the sprints (and otherwise).
But I see a lack of sponsored uploads for others and other things. Maybe
it's time we also (but strongly) focus on NEW queue reviews and
sponsoring uploads?


Best,
Utkarsh




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Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks

[Steve Langasek]

On Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 12:44:44PM +0100, Santa Claus wrote:
> Download debian-private today thanks to IPFS

> https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmNgEAYhpb3djgmZWcdNM2jN3epDmfGym89U41Jt2zr9tL

Nothing says "I'm taking a stand against bullying" quite like repeatedly
republishing people's private correspondence from 20 years ago.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer   https://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/12/24 17:01, Martina Ferrari wrote:
> I mean not letting it pass and "not feeding the troll", downright
> denouncing hate speech wherever it appears, in the strongest terms.
> Sometimes that means calling people names or being aggressive, risking a
> mailing list ban, a punch in the street, losing friends. That is what
> I've meant.

I'm glad that someone said this, because more than once before when I
spoke out against some bad behaviour, my irssi lit up with a dozen
messages saying "Don't feed the troll."

I understand the nature of trolls and not wanting to feed them, but it
is entirely possible to denounce them without giving them fuel, even
though it can be like walking a tightrope at times.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Do we still value contributions?

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/12/24 20:08, John Goerzen wrote:

> But at the same time, I feel that the project as a whole isn't really
> taking this problem very seriously.

That is true, probably mostly because many people don't really
understand that there is a problem. The NEW queue waits are tough, but
there are also the following which are also often in serious need of
attention:

 * Patches attached to bug reports
 * Request for sponsorships
 * Merge requests

Energy put into all areas like that end up paying for itself because it
helps energize and attract new contributors.

I try to keep up with sponsorship backlogs (making good strides but
can't really keep up), which at the same time adds load to the NEW queue
(11 of my and sponsoree packages stuck in there right now), which I feel
kind of bad for so I've been trying to join as an FTP team trainee too
to help out there (which I should probably try to follow-up again but
that's also been a bit frustrating).

I think many will agree with you that we should do better in all those
areas, especially the NEW queue, but change is difficult and in itself
takes time. In a commercial setting it would probably be easier to
create incentives to motivate staff to do more review kind of work, but
I suppose in Debian it's seen as somewhat unglamorous work and we don't
have many methods to incentivise contributors.

In particular I think it's important to support events like bug
squashing parties because it's one of the few things that we can do, and
encourage things like patch reviews, sponsoring and NEW queue reviews at
these events and maybe even thank all the people who participate in
these on a monthly basis in bits from Debian so that maybe this work can
be highlighted more as something that we do value and might encourage
more people to get involved there.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Do we still value contributions?

[Charles Plessy]

Le Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 11:11:43AM -0500, Scott Kitterman a écrit :
> 
> More generally, New is being processed as fast as it can given available 
> volunteer time.  Any delays are not reflective of a lack of value placed on 
> people's contributions.

Hi Scott, John, everybody,

In the past I proposed a system of peer review to pre-screen the
packages that are in the NEW queue.

https://wiki.debian.org/CopyrightReview

It never took off but maybe some process along these lines could help
reducing the time needed by the FTP Masters to process the packages ?

Have a nice day,

Charles

-- 
Charles Plessy  Akano, Uruma, Okinawa, Japan
Debian Med packaging team http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
Tooting from work,   https://mastodon.technology/@charles_plessy
Tooting from home, https://framapiaf.org/@charles_plessy

Re: I get to hope

[Rhonda D'Vine]

   Dear Andy and all.

 There is one big issue with your approach: People like Gerardo or
Norbert don't follow those basic rules. "If they go low, we go high"
doesn't work with people who don't care about going low. Norbert is
regularly demanding something from others that he clearly is not willing
to give himself, and I'm quite disturbed that this has to be pointed
out, over and over again.

 I encourage everyone to watch this youtube series and think about the
patterns that are going on:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbANnTnzkA_HMFtQ

 And in this very specific context, I want to point explicitly to the
episode on "You Go High, We Go Low":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAbab8aP4_A

 Please, think of what you demand because it's onesided: people who use
right-wing rethoric of “non standard gender self identification”[1] and
similar clearly don't follow those rules, and going high when they go
low only plays by their rules and doesn't make them follow ones that are
strengthening a community in any sense because they don't care about
going low.
[1]
https://www.preining.info/blog/2019/12/debian-and-the-privileged-gender-class/

 So again, please watch at least the "You Go High, We Go Low" episode
and think about it.

 People. Don't. Care. To go low.

 Debian has a history of fostering people going low as part of its
identity and culture. It has been praised and been made fun of over and
over again. People have been told to grow a thicker skin instead of
adjusting the culture. I am aware that this process isn't easy, to
unlearn these patterns, but if we really want to create a more welcoming
environment we can't fall into the pit of requesting high grounds ...
from the abused only but not doing anything whatsoever against the ones
that repeatedly overstep boundaries and simply don't care.

 Sending hugs,
Rhonda

Am 24.12.19 um 21:31 schrieb Andy Simpkins:
> Quite simply i can't see why we can't all work and play nice togeather.
> It appears some of us need to follow some basic rules...
>
> 1. In ALL interactions with someone, you should treat them both with
> respect AND treat them as you would wish them to treat you and others.
> If you don't know how someone wants to be addressed then look at how
> they refer to themselves.
>
> 2. If you don't feel able to treat people with respect or in a civil
> way dont interact with them at all.
>
> 3. As, if or when someone breaks rule 1 call them out on it but still
> be respectful to them (take the higher ground).
>
> 4. If they fail to stop behaving in a distespectful manor report it
> but do not continue to interact with that person. If this interaction
> is in anything other than a direct 1 to 1 conversation copy your
> complaint to the channel and ask to be invited back when they have
> left, repented or removed.
>
>
>
>
> On 24 December 2019 18:18:25 GMT, Sam Hartman 
> wrote:
>
> "gagz" == gagz  writes: 
>
>
> gagz> sam:
>
> I personally hope that we choose to respect people
> always--even when they do not respect us in return. 
>
>
> gagz> If you also mean "we choose to always respect people, even
> gagz> when they did not respect us before", then take a punch in
> gagz> your face 50 times a day and try to gently ask for help. You
> gagz> will scream, I would bet!
>
> When you say that you cannot bring respect to people who have been
> violent to you, I understand.
> I'm not talking about what *you should do*.
> And I understand that bringing that respect is almost impossible if you
> haven't made it a significant  aspect of your life to do the work to
> provide that sort of respect.
> Even if you have it's really difficult and you will sometimes fail.
>
> But when you tell me that *i do not get to hope for that*--when you
> presume that I don't know how hard it is, you go too far.
> That is an attack on my identity that I feel more strongly than an
> attack on me because I'm blind or queer.
> I know; I've experienced all of the above.
> I do not presume to know what it is like living in your skin; I ask that
> you extend me the same.
>
> More than anything else, I want--I hope for--a world of compassion.
> It's something thatI've spent years of my life on.
> It's something that I've taken religious vows to support.
> And no it is not easy.
> And no I don't expect others to be able to  do that, and I understand
> (although sometimes disagree) when they do not.
>
> BUT I GET TO HOPE AND DREAM FOR the WORLD IN WHICH I WISH TO LIVE.
> And I am still a supporter of  your humanity, your journey even when I
> hope for a kind of compassion that you (and sometimes I) are unable or
> unwilling to deliver.
> Even if you don't share my hope.
>
> I do not turn my hopes into expectations for you.  My hopes do influence
> how I think about some things 

Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks

[Ansgar]

Zlatan writes:
> Can we ban this email account (and be persistent with such effort)?

We should, but it's playing whack-a-mole as one can just again create a
new, anonymous mail account anywhere.

Targeted abusive behavior is much harder to get rid of than spam as most
blocking systems can be worked around with some minimal manual
effort. Even people sending spam will (sometimes) subscribe to mailing
lists or impose other people; any such measures thus certainly wouldn't
help when people are willing to work around these measures manually.

You could moderate all mail and/or whitelist people based on DKIM-signed
mails that cannot easily be forged, but that would require to spend
quite some effort on boring things :-/

Ansgar

Quote required - Debian Debian GNU 1.1.3.0 - RITM1119492

[Moody's Purchasing Group]

Team,

Please provide a quote for 1 qty of Debian Debian GNU 1.1.3.0 for our employee 
based in NY office.


Thank you and Kind Regards,

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Analyst | Procurement & Sourcing Group
abhay.si...@moodys.com
Tel  +91-124-502-5390

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Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks

[Zlatan]

Can we ban this email account (and be persistent with such effort)?

Z

On December 25, 2019 9:19:40 AM GMT+01:00, Santa Claus  
wrote:
>
> Message d'origine 
>> De : Ansgar 
>> À : Paul R. Tagliamonte 
>> Sujet : Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks
>> Date : 25/12/2019 08:48:25 Europe/Paris
>> Copie à : debian-project@lists.debian.org
>> 
>> Hi Paul,
>> 
>> "Paul R. Tagliamonte" writes:
>> > Very sad and disturbed by all of his behavior. I very much hope he
>gets 
>> the
>> > help he needs and gets well soon.
>> 
>> I would like to ask you to not comment on other people's mental
>health
>
>Mr Tag wants to run for Debian Project Leader
>
>shitting on volunteers from great height is one of the skills other
>recent leaders have demonstrated so competently.  keep it up.  make
>Debian great again!

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks

[Santa Claus]

 Message d'origine 
> De : Ansgar 
> À : Paul R. Tagliamonte 
> Sujet : Re: Merry Christmas more debian private leaks
> Date : 25/12/2019 08:48:25 Europe/Paris
> Copie à : debian-project@lists.debian.org
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> "Paul R. Tagliamonte" writes:
> > Very sad and disturbed by all of his behavior. I very much hope he gets 
> the
> > help he needs and gets well soon.
> 
> I would like to ask you to not comment on other people's mental health

Mr Tag wants to run for Debian Project Leader

shitting on volunteers from great height is one of the skills other recent 
leaders have demonstrated so competently.  keep it up.  make Debian great again!