Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 01:23:11PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: > Debian's diversity statement commits us to be welcoming to all people > regardless of who they *are*. > > It does *not* commit us to welcome all people into our community regardless > of the *idealogies they express*. > > Nazis can fuck off. > > I will reserve the right to tell nazis to fuck off, in private or in public > according to what I deem most appropriate and effective, up until the point > that the Debian Project kicks me out, or until it becomes clear to me that > the Debian Project is no longer worth defending against nazis. I wonder, though -- do we have a Nazi anywhere in the project? Could you point to one? Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ According to recent spams, "all my email accounts are owned ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ by a hacker". So what's the problem? ⠈⠳⣄
Re: Diversity in an international project
On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 07:44:01PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote: >On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 01:23:11PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: >>... >> Debian's diversity statement commits us to be welcoming to all people >> regardless of who they *are*. >> >> It does *not* commit us to welcome all people into our community regardless >> of the *idealogies they express*. >> >> Nazis can fuck off. >>... > >Our diversity statement says: > > No matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: > we welcome you. > >We welcome you, no matter whether you identify yourself as Nazi or >whether others perceive you as Nazi. > > >Our diversity statement says: > > We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact > constructively with our community. Almost by definition, Nazis are known not to interact constructively with communities. We value and support our diverse community; Nazism is well understood to be just about the polar opposite from that position. What's hard to understand here? *Please* stop now, this is not a helpful discussion for anybody involved. :-( -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com "Because heaters aren't purple!" -- Catherine Pitt signature.asc Description: PGP signature
This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other
I wasn't thrilled with Steve's message; I sent him what I hope are some constructive comments privately. Bringing up nazis is rarely going to calm things down or promote constructive discussion. And yes, he did that. But Adrian! You really doubled down on the tension. I appreciate that you are frustrated and disagree strongly with some of what Steve is saying. I hear that you would like to have a discussion on how our diversity statement interacts with organizations people affiliatef with. Doubling down on the nazi thing isn't going to give us a constructive or healthy discussion. There are ways to have the discussion you are looking for that will be more constructive and that will not promote quite so much of aflame war. It sounds like you aren't feeling heard. The particular example you picked is only likely to escalate things so that none of us are hearing each other. Please let us find a way to step back, listen to your concerns, but also respect the other people involved.
Diversity in an international project
On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 01:23:11PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: >... > Debian's diversity statement commits us to be welcoming to all people > regardless of who they *are*. > > It does *not* commit us to welcome all people into our community regardless > of the *idealogies they express*. > > Nazis can fuck off. >... Our diversity statement says: No matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you: we welcome you. We welcome you, no matter whether you identify yourself as Nazi or whether others perceive you as Nazi. Our diversity statement says: We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact constructively with our community. It does not matter what one personally thinks about Nazis, or what one personally thinks about people who supported Drone Murder Obama, or what one personally thinks about people who call him Drone Murder Obama, we have committed to accept contributions from them. And this is important: Do we want Debian to be a project representing the affluent IT elite in the US and their political opinions, or do we want Debian to be a diverse international project with contributors everywhere in the world? As far as I know one of the largest users of our work in Debian is the Russian military, and we might have contributors from Russia with quite diverging views on domestic issues of their country. We do have developers in China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. There are many other places in the world where we either have members or would like to have members. When you use the word "Nazi", I have to think of current events in the real world where words like "concentration camps" and "genocide" are frequently used. If membership in Debian would imply anything about political opinions, this could get some of our members into untenable positions where I would be worried about their safety. cu Adrian
