Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On 12 August 2014 09:51, Wookey woo...@wookware.org wrote: Could you do MATE too please? MATE: (with mate-desktop-environment-extras) free ^[[C total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 506756 397480 109276 7096 58820 166076 -/+ buffers/cache: 172584 334172 Swap: 392188 0 392188 The ctrl characters came with it apparently. And as an extra, Gnome Classical: free total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 506756 498240 8516 2452 5972 71360 -/+ buffers/cache: 420908 85848 Swap: 392188 16292 375896
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
We happen at work to have users with very important needs of 3D resources, so one of my colleagues conducted some performance tests with and without a compositor (the compositor being GNOME 3). It turns out that with a recent adapter, 3D applications are running a small bit faster under GNOME, and that’s probably because it saves your graphics card the pain to switch from 2D to 3D contexts. Virtualbox Results (no guest drivers installed) Gnome: glxgears 1267 frames in 5.0 seconds = 253.150 FPS 1197 frames in 5.0 seconds = 239.372 FPS 1174 frames in 5.0 seconds = 234.753 FPS 1142 frames in 5.0 seconds = 228.005 FPS 1201 frames in 5.0 seconds = 239.898 FPS 1217 frames in 5.0 seconds = 243.075 FPS 1194 frames in 5.0 seconds = 238.475 FPS Gnome-Classic: glxgears 1150 frames in 5.0 seconds = 229.772 FPS 1267 frames in 5.0 seconds = 253.212 FPS 1240 frames in 5.0 seconds = 247.875 FPS 1272 frames in 5.0 seconds = 254.374 FPS 1314 frames in 5.0 seconds = 262.673 FPS 1279 frames in 5.0 seconds = 255.684 FPS XFCE: glxgears 2110 frames in 5.0 seconds = 421.982 FPS 2290 frames in 5.0 seconds = 457.800 FPS 2241 frames in 5.0 seconds = 448.046 FPS 2279 frames in 5.0 seconds = 455.636 FPS 2191 frames in 5.0 seconds = 438.094 FPS 2246 frames in 5.0 seconds = 449.114 FPS 2218 frames in 5.0 seconds = 443.590 FPS Please note xfce was installed on the same vm, that gnome / gnome-classic was on. It was therefore using much more memory, (it seems GDM + other gnome services are causing memory use, i will be testing that shortly). And here i will make a comparison. ahahahaha. That was it. Moving on. ;)
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
I enjoy the way you keep ignoring the relevant points, memory usage and performance regressions. And the way you benchmarked gnome against gnome. How about warsaw on xfce on the same hardware or your benchmarks pretty much show nothing except that your 'slight performance increase when using gnome-shell' is pure fabrication. On 12 August 2014 13:20, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote: Le mardi 12 août 2014 à 13:12 +0100, Anthony F McInerney a écrit : Virtualbox Results (no guest drivers installed) Glxgears is not a relevant 3D benchmark. But the funniest thing is that you did this test without any 3D acceleration, which is not representative at all of most real-world computers. Thanks for making the point that with llvmpipe, GNOME is perfectly usable on a machine without 3D. -- .''`.Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `-
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On Mon, 11 Aug, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Thomas Weber twe...@debian.org wrote: Not sure why you'd want to go for third world countries, but let's look at Germany (Aldi is one of the two biggest discounters here): http://www.presseportal.de/pm/112096/2653870/aldi-senkt-preise-fuer-fischprodukte-oel-und-smoothies CD-R Rohlinge (80 Minuten, je 50er Spindel) 5,99 Euro DVD+R Rohlinge (je 20er Spindel)3,99 Euro That is 0.12 EUR per CDR and 0.20 EUR per DVD. As you have shown here, it would cost an extra €0.08 to have it on DVD instead of CD. Also I’ll note for you, that's 86GB for €3.99 or 40GB for €5.99 The cost of a DVD is not some far reaching astronomical price increase, in fact per GB it's cheaper. Here in the UK I can walk into a poundstore and pick up 4 dvds for a £1. I'm quite sure you can do the same in any $1 dollar, 99cent store. The cd's in that store come in a 5pack for £1. DVD readers/writers are cheaper now than CD readers/writers ever were. I don't think it makes sense to ask for the price of one media (which is in Cents), but then assume that the extra cost for a new DVD reader is negligible. Price is not a valid concern for DVD, in terms of media or drives. Either the CD drive is too old to function or the machine is. (in terms of jessie anyway), you can barely buy second hand CD drives, but DVD drives are a plenty, sure you can buy them NEW for little more than a pack of 50 CD's. And if it's machines in the wild with CD drives still again, we have woody, squeeze and wheezy for them. I ran woody on my cheap laptop in 2002. it had a DVD drive. Can we now move on to choosing a DE? Thanks Anthony.
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
How do you measure memory? Free? Could you quite possibly post the output of free and whatever else you measure with? (the full output) For reference against jessie, i'm installing an up to date jessie right now... Thanks Anthony (bofh80)
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
XFCE: total used free sharedbuffers cached Mem:506756 362468 144288 6568 22756 179264 -/+ buffers/cache: 160448 346308 Swap: 392188 0 392188 GNOME: total used free sharedbuffers cached Mem:506756 500360 6396 1948840 37724 -/+ buffers/cache: 461796 44960 Swap: 392188 66672 325516 LXDE: total used free sharedbuffers cached Mem:506756 316504 190252 8500 18920 149812 -/+ buffers/cache: 147772 358984 Swap: 392188 0 392188 KDE: total used free sharedbuffers cached Mem:506756 499724 7032 6772 10516 109760 -/+ buffers/cache: 379448 127308 Swap: 392188 21632 370556 As default using the latest mini.iso with mirror/udeb/suite=sid and using the 'alternate desktop menu' booted, logged in, loaded a terminal, here you go. notice the swap usage. virtualbox vm 512MB
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
On 12 August 2014 01:03, Kees de Jong keesdej...@gmail.com wrote: Are we really comparing RAM here as if it were the 90's? I had stated previously XFCE had started showing memory usage similar to gnome. This has quite obviously changed. I was wrong, and i'm posting it as a correction to my statement. I also just test installed all 4 DE's and am happy to run any further tests required to reach a consensus. How many people here use Android? Today it needs 512 MB to function properly. Linux+Java. Needs memory, surprise? In two years that could be 1 or 2 GB and that's a mobile OS. It's Linux. It has a web browser. A modem. A wireless connection. Bluetooth. GPS. Music Player, Photo viewer, wait this is sounding familiar. How much RAM does your browser use? Lots, which is why i prefer my DE not to eat it all. My Chrome/Firefox easily uses 1 GB My GNOME 3.10 desktop (running Fedora now because I needed a modern GNOME version for Exchange support for work) is using about 800 MB to 1200 MB. Ouch Do I really care? No, because RAM is cheap and I have 8 GB. Do I need to buy more? No, because 8 GB is still more than enough. free totalused free sharedbuffers cached Mem:12332856 12164516168340 129196 1002483989512 -/+ buffers/cache:8074756 4258100 Swap:3211260 129088 3082172 Maybe for you. (and my DE uses less than lxde and xfce, but with more options and jazz+bugs). But that's me, i might be able to fit my own memory, most people will not, they have to pay for that, and most would have to remove memory to fit more memory, hence making the cost more than you imagined. If you can't run GNOME because you don't have the system specs to run a modern desktop then you can select XFCE/LXDE in the installation menu. But let's be fair, those people are a minority. And a default should fit the needs of the majority. Ahh good you have statistics for that. Please link them, or quote and cite sources. And since people easily have 4 GB of RAM or more these days with the basic 3D acceleration (even a Raspberry Pi can run GNOME 3) then I would say that logic chooses GNOME. Some people like the 'basic 3d acceleration' for other things, so not only do you want me to sacrifice my RAM to all powerful DE, but also my GPU? How kind of you ;) . Also as the memory usage shows, a pi won't be doing much more than starting gnome and going, oh look it's gnome. Also because of a ton of other reasons already mentioned e.g. systemd, documentation, dedicated maintainers, accessibility, etc. OK that's a gnome+1 then. :) TBH i'd rather hear what you like about gnome3, the workflow or anything else that makes it 'stand out' from other DE's, or rather, worth a large percentage of ram, especially if can surpass 1GB. Thanks for the info.
Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop
Would the people who are claiming that blank cdr are cheaper than dvdr, especially in third world countries, please cite sources (shops, price checkers etc) of the price of say 5 pack or 10 pack, even up to 50pack of CD's, vs the same amount of DVD's, from those third world countries. Is the price of a small pack of DVD's really worth making the decision on a DE for debian? If people have old CD only machines i would not like to attempt to get kernel 3.16 +drivers +userland working on that. I've been in that situation plenty of times, where woody or potato are better simply because the drivers had been deprecated. Lets not go into the 256/512MB of ram that the CD only computer has and how much gnome or xfce is going to chew up and bring the machine to a crawl as soon you try to do anything and it hits swap. DVD readers/writers are cheaper now than CD readers/writers ever were. The only argument you have left is bandwidth, and fortunately DVD's can be sent in the post. Also we are probably only talking about a 100MB or 200MB more. I'd rather a nice debian installer with everything included, rather than trying to 'cut stuff out' just so it 'fits'. There's simply no need for that. The real issue at hand should not be derailed by does it work with 1995 technology As for the topic, the assumption of let's switch back to gnome now, how quaint. Firstly, it should be Let's choose the default DE for Jessie. Secondly, why haven't the lxde and kde developers been included on the list for this discussion? Even with the init choice, the outsiders were given a chance to speak up (E17 anyone?) Thirdly, and more importantly the state of gnome itself in testing/jessie repositories, let alone sid, even with a larger team, the mismatched package versions, the first movement from 3.8 to 3.12, means it's barely been looked at let alone tested, those that do attempt to test it come into irc regular to complain about it. So can we not have our DE chosen on the merit of 20 cents, and instead decide which DE is best for technical reasons, usability, accessibility or interface and start customising it pronto? (ie, still need to decide on a default theme) For reference i do not use XFCE or GNOME as my default DE, i have attempted to use sid and testing in a vm to test gnome3 recently and just gave up, that obviously might have changed in the last few weeks.
