Re: Report from DSA Team Sprint in Oslo
I'm curious why ftp-master needs to be hosted in the US. (please CC me) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAA77j2A29k=gt5yez109extvzzv1nnt730bp6u9rgjnkfzh...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Report from DSA Team Sprint in Oslo
Thanks for the explanation; makes me curious how other distros/projects handle this? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAA77j2BoJ0oYsiHGYXeZLh-vpUGshihqcK=y7qr-n4u7zrr...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Why so many install DVD's ?
On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 18:03, Gunnar Wolf gw...@gwolf.org wrote: packages. The size of an average desktop install is well below 5GB², including the whole desktop suite (with the most often used programs for a regular workstation). This can be misleading because install size is always larger than package size. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/AANLkTimkL=H1V9O=tydoiy1pnbf6n9uofpjigcdid...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 09:28, Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no wrote: ]] Michael Gilbert Hi, | On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:27:08 +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: | | You don't think so. I do. One of the reasons is it puts a, IMO too | low value on other, similar work, so by taking petty donations for | small pieces of work, you are lowering the value of my work too. | Lowering the value of the work your codevelopers are doing is, IMO, | rude. I realise that's not the intention of asking for money, but | the effect is there. | | How can you possibly reduce the monetary value of volunteer work? Or | more inquisitively, how is it even feasible to assign a price to such | work in the first place? I did not write monetary value, I wrote value. By not assigning a monetary value to the work, it gets valued by its usefulness (or prettyness or whatever). Once you assign a monetary value to it, the non-monetary value gets in the background because people will use the monetary value as a proxy for its non-monetary value. Let me make a simile, which like all similes are not perfect, but might get my point across, since it seems people find it hard to understand: Assume you are helping a friend move house. They offer you €2 for the work. Would you be happy? I'd be insulted, since what they're doing is assigning a very low value on your work, rather than just saying «Thanks a lot for the help» afterwards. If they just said «Thank you», the value they put on your work and thereby how appreciated you feel will be higher. Would you feel better if the friend offered €1000? €10k? If Raphael made €10k/month (instead of €15), would your response be different? What's your problem actually? I'm losing track here (IE, I don't know what your point is). -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktim5=okaefgndntc-dq6zni0zzcwx05a68_rj...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:24, Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no wrote: ]] Raphael Hertzog Hi, | Are those sentences correctly representing your concerns? Are there | other concerns to add? My concern is actually more that I don't like people begging, and the flattr buttons do look like begging to me. I'd rather not be paid at all than be paid tiny amounts for work I do, and those 25€/month you're talking about is, for me, tiny amounts. If people want to say thanks, an email, a note on IRC or a beer when I meet people in real life are much more effective ways doing so than just dropping pocket change at me. It's not begging in a sense that someone IS doing some work. It's more like use this thing that I produced, and if you want, you can reward me with a few cents. There simply is nothing distasteful about that. In fact, I find it courageous, considering the taboo surrounding money. OTOH, a beggar doesn't provide any service at all. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktinhhm49zaok4yf0d1+m=crbidgpow5oxxsyv...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 17:56, Raphael Hertzog hert...@debian.org wrote: Hi, On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: It's not begging in a sense that someone IS doing some work. It's more like use this thing that I produced, and if you want, you can reward me with a few cents. There simply is nothing distasteful about that. In fact, I find it courageous, considering the taboo surrounding money. OTOH, a beggar doesn't provide any service at all. Tshepang, I appreciate that you like my courage and my willingness to try new things, but we're speaking of feelings that some people have. You're not going to change those by telling them they are unfounded. It does happen at times. Many people change their minds after some discussion, but it tends to be very uncomfortable, that's why you find people searching for 'facts' that strengthen their feelings (an act of dishonesty actually, though often not conscious). It's good that they are expressed (as long as they are not turned as personal attacks) so that we can take them into account and try to avoid bad feelings when possible. Agreed. There are also topics where we must accept to disagree and be able to move on nevertheless because they are unrelated to our main mission of building a free operating system. Agreed. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktimmd-eucuqrwmmtwab5bkhl8zk5dg8zwwkew...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 18:27, Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no wrote: ]] Tshepang Lekhonkhobe | It's more like use this thing that I produced, and if you want, you | can reward me with a few cents. There simply is nothing distasteful | about that. You don't think so. I do. One of the reasons is it puts a, IMO too low value on other, similar work, so by taking petty donations for small pieces of work, you are lowering the value of my work too. Lowering the value of the work your codevelopers are doing is, IMO, rude. I realise that's not the intention of asking for money, but the effect is there. I don't understand this argument. How does it lower the value of other's work? As I said, I'd rather give my time away for a useful purpose than being paid less than €1/hour, which is about what Raphael cited for what he earns off flattr. (He's posted 13 articles over the last month, each took at least two hours to write, and he's making around €25/month.) Matter of preference, nothing more. | In fact, I find it courageous, considering the taboo surrounding | money. OTOH, a beggar doesn't provide any service at all. My definition of people begging for money include charities asking for money on the street. Those charities usually provide useful services. I guess that wasn't entirely clear from my email. So, you don't like charities asking for money? I say this because you mentioned that you don't like begging. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktik1gyzkohzdqwyn+xbra8kh6khzl7ks40eqk...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Please draft a policy for planet.debian.org
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:56, Martin Zobel-Helas zo...@debian.org wrote: [ Please note that this is my very personal opinion and does not neccesarily need to cover the opinion of any of the teams I am in. ] Dear planet folks, I have been made aware that people use Debian resources for personal financial gain using the planet.d.o syndication platform, by for instance including 'flattr' links and images in the text present on planet. -1 for flattr; it's a great way to contribute a few cents; and these people are great contributors to Debian anyways, so why don't they get rewarded? while on that topic, maybe each package on package.qa.d.o should have a flattr button ;-) Furthermore there are reports of webbugs in some feeds syndicated on planet, or things that systematically leak browsing behaviour to third parties by including images directly from these sides. I don't know much about this one, so no positive or negative vote from me. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlkti=pd4lr+hv+0bg+fp1mmejuwlwhxh-wpew8-...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 02:44, Russ Allbery r...@debian.org wrote: Michael Gilbert michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com writes: Raphael has every right to attempt to pursue his field of endeavor in any tolerant/respectful manner he chooses. ...using his own property. But not using Debian project resources. Raphael is among the most notable (visible) of all DD's, so why not? If he became a millionaire using flattr, why not? Why not create money where there wasn't? Why is the money topic so sensitive? I'm the sort of person who gets excited by seeing Release Managers get paid for their heroic work. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktinf0bwcbsxlkfwpqgl9vfksmgxip+7hfmkya...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 14:22, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud did...@raboud.com wrote: Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 02:44, Russ Allbery r...@debian.org wrote: Michael Gilbert michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com writes: Raphael has every right to attempt to pursue his field of endeavor in any tolerant/respectful manner he chooses. ...using his own property. But not using Debian project resources. Raphael is among the most notable (visible) of all DD's, so why not? If he became a millionaire using flattr, why not? Why not create money where there wasn't? Why is the money topic so sensitive? I'm the sort of person who gets excited by seeing Release Managers get paid for their heroic work. For a simple reason, the DMUP [0]; which every user of Debian resources must follow. It says (in its introduction, point 1). * Don't use Debian Facilities for private financial gain I'm sure this is just a guideline of course, else the following should be adhered to: Don't mention a book you've just written if that piece of writing will show up on Debian Planet, even if the book is about Debian. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktinmwanf3tdtktbhsshq9xjmmr0qmgvtmy-ua...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Please draft a policy for planet.debian.org
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 14:11, Peter Palfrader wea...@debian.org wrote: On Thu, 11 Nov 2010, Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: while on that topic, maybe each package on package.qa.d.o should have a flattr button ;-) And one for the packages.d.o guys. And one for the QA guys. And one for DSA. And one for the mirror people. And the ftp-team. And the buildd and wanna-build folks. I was half-joking, but if they so choose, why not. Fundraising doesn't hurt. At which point is this getting silly? When it becomes an eyesore I guess, but this is a design issue I guess. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlkti=yszrtxvysofs7+cc=zkn9jput2=h69-74x...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Please draft a policy for planet.debian.org
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 14:27, Lars Wirzenius l...@liw.fi wrote: On to, 2010-11-11 at 14:01 +0200, Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: -1 for flattr; it's a great way to contribute a few cents; and these people are great contributors to Debian anyways, so why don't they get rewarded? while on that topic, maybe each package on package.qa.d.o should have a flattr button ;-) I see the smiley, but I object anyway: please let's not start promoting non-free services on debian.org. There's a bigger problem lurking in the background, though. We could replace Flattr with a (hypothetical) free service, but we would still have money involved. Money is a powerful motivator. It is not the only thing that motivates people, but it is powerful enough that it can easily warp decision making. If micropayments take off, and the amounts of money grow to become significant, then it's likely that people will work to increase the amount of money they get. If they have to choose between the technically correct option and the money-making one, there is a conflict. Right now that conflict is missing, and the quality of Debian is high because of it. Also, micropayments like Flattr are most likely to go to popular, high-visibility things. Debian mostly consists of the long tail: most packages have fairly few users, but Debian as a whole is stronger for having such a wide variety of packages. If people have to choose between money and working on an unpopular package, there is again a conflict. There's more source conflict: if there's a micropayment button on packages.debian.org, how will the money be divided between members of a packaging team? People who do NMUs? Should people who report particularly useful bugs be rewarded, too? What about people who maintain the Debian infrastructure? You are exposing issues I didn't even think about, thanks. There may be a way to collect money via Debian and not have conflicts. But on the whole I would prefer for us to not experiment and avoid this entirely. If there's a way, why not? Waste of time? Too busy fixing RC bugs? This issue will keep coming back because it's left unresolved. There's people who want to be financially rewarded for their work on Debian, and there people who don't care. Both do matter. Don't let those who don't care disadvantage those who do. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlkti=bg4q=qb6ojg4qnacu7yjtsnzsrpnrpfskg...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 19:24, Russ Allbery r...@debian.org wrote: Tshepang Lekhonkhobe tshep...@gmail.com writes: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud did...@raboud.com wrote: For a simple reason, the DMUP [0]; which every user of Debian resources must follow. It says (in its introduction, point 1). * Don't use Debian Facilities for private financial gain I'm sure this is just a guideline of course, else the following should be adhered to: Don't mention a book you've just written if that piece of writing will show up on Debian Planet, even if the book is about Debian. Indeed, and therefore there's already been a lot of discussion on this thread about how the boundary is fuzzy, we don't want to be too literal about it, some amount of incidental use is fine, and so forth. But because the boundary is fuzzy, that means we sometimes have to have these conversations, and it means that the topic is legitimate. I probably come to this from a slightly different perspective than some of the people here since I work for a non-profit educational institution, which has similar requirements around use of university facilities for personal gain for tax reasons. If someone at Stanford used Stanford computing facilities directly for personal financial gain, Stanford could get into serious trouble with the US government because it's a violation of our tax-free non-profit status. An attempt at an analogy: the worry with Stanford is legal issues with USA; the worry with Debian is that money can corrupt (undermines the volunteer foundation on which this great OS if founded upon) and gimme money icons are annoying to some? Just wanted to be clear. Anyway the arguments against flattr sway me towards them, but maybe that's not ok since Raphael, according to me, isn't at all abusing Debian project resources (and flattr is a great way to say thanks, and more meaningful than those words if you ask me). That little green button at the bottom of his posts isn't intrusive at all, and I am ever impressed by a person so bold to ask for financial support. Most others are embarassed, since money is so taboo. But I guess we have different opinions on what intrusive is. I personally dislike sites where you get an ads in the beginning or the middle of an article (such arrogance!), while someone else will find that okay, even sympathizing with author gotta eat. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktinm3wsncj0pgbybw1mtdse57kj4ofb_xh�...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 23:22, Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) jonat...@ubuntu.com wrote: Hi Raphael On 10/11/2010 14:45, Raphael Hertzog wrote: On Mon, 08 Nov 2010, Holger Levsen wrote: since a while, we see unsolicted commercial links and images on planet, mostly about flattr. So it's now clear that this thread is only about flattr buttons. Quite a few people explained that they are (at varying level) annoyed by them. I would like to know _why_ those buttons annoy them. To get a clear feedback I'd like to setup a poll (with selectricity.org) so that people who have chosen to put those buttons can decide what to do (or not). It's going to be a condorcet-based poll where you have to rank the following statements: I'm annoyed by Flattr buttons because * The picture catches the attention too much in a post which contains only text. * The picture allows Flattr to gather statistics about me. * Debian contributors should not make money from posts syndicated on planet. * I believe Flattr is a bad micro-donation system and it should not be promoted. * The button indirectly promotes a service run by a private company unrelated to Debian. snip Are those sentences correctly representing your concerns? Are there other concerns to add? I'm not a Debian Developer, but I'm an avid follower of Planet Debian (I read *everything*) and the Debian Project itself. I think all of the above reasons are valid reasons to be annoyed by the flattr icons. I'd add that some posters might in some way try to 'guilt' readers into flattr'ing them, as in I went through all this effort in writing this post and I need money badly so you should really click on my flattr button!. There are many more subtle versions of that, but for me personally I find that one of the most annoying things about it. I am so grateful for FLOSS that I happily joined flattr, since it was such a great way to express thanks, and thanks to Raphael for that. I can't wait for more FLOSS workers to embrace it. Anyways, you should not complain when someone asks you to give them money, even if it results in you feeling guilty for not complying. Why not just ignore it like you ignore all those beggars on the road (EG, block Raphael's feed). I OTOH am glad when someone asks for it. It encourages me to give, and I admire someone who fights against the shame normally associated with asking for money, and BTW minimum amount flattr requires you to give per month is a mere 8 euros anyways. Come on! -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktikptyqvjeq8sp9ouk70-p3swtap7gec3tpmt...@mail.gmail.com
Re: QTS ( was Re: user support - Shapado instance for Debian)
2010/10/8 Jesús M. Navarro jesus.nava...@undominio.net: Hi Tshepang: On Thursday 07 October 2010 19:02:39 Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 18:13, Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: [...] You ask a question, and someone answers. If you find the answer useful, you vote it as correct, and the answerer gets points for that. You also get email notifications if you so wish if you got a new answer. Go have a look and see (ask.debian.net). It's quite a good idea. That's knowledge by consensus. How it deals with nonsenses? I.e.: Q: I downloaded a script from the Internet and I can't execute it. A: cd ~ chmod -R a+x Hey, it works! I think I should mod up this guy. It's not a theoretical scenario: I visit Ubuntu forums from time to time and there's an ashtounding number of answers in the line of my previous example. And how does a mailing list get rid of that problem? Is it because there's more experts there? By the way, moderators exist to reduce such problems, and DPL is one of them. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlkti=aryabfn+vqfiiqhxe+yxxd_hzuedyjikfa...@mail.gmail.com
Re: QTS ( was Re: user support - Shapado instance for Debian)
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 07:49, Ritesh Raj Sarraf r...@debian.org wrote: On Thursday 07 Oct 2010 01:12:37 Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: Ultimately, all this information gets publically archived/mined and serves as useful information. == One solution: all package maintainers subscribe to debian-user, and set filters on their respective packages. Would this be sub-optimal? That does not solve the problem. A year later, when a user wants to see all queries regarding a specific package, he needs to run through search engines and mailing list archives. Data that is not organized is useless. PS: Now that we have shapado running I hope we can soon do something to implement a QTS. Shapado is a form of QTS, in a sense that if someone asks the some Q, you can just provide a link to some answer from the mailing list, Also, in my case, I asked some question and the maintainer actually have me an answer (http://ask.debian.net/questions/default-python-for-debian-7-0). I know it's a trade-off, but your QTS sounds like overkill; it's yet another system. Rather, promote Shapado to package maintainers, and maybe they can subsribe to a tag or something. In fact, I like the format so much that Shapado should be THE place to ask Debian-related questions, just like StackOverflow is THE place to ask programming questions. note: THE doesn't imply ONLY -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktim3md=i4-pxnqebhnkcfbrawzq_amvtybqho...@mail.gmail.com
Re: QTS ( was Re: user support - Shapado instance for Debian)
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:12, Fernando C. Estrada fcestr...@fcestrada.com wrote: Bad News: If the system keeps growing (as we hope) the current moderators are not enough. Good News: Maybe we'll find more volunteers to help us as moderators. Why let people elect to be moderators? Why not let them earn that honour by gaining reputation points? -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktik=j9dq9jh60u6j8j233eenwcdu7pk-+difv...@mail.gmail.com
Re: QTS ( was Re: user support - Shapado instance for Debian)
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 18:13, Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: On Jo, 07 oct 10, 03:33:08, Fernando C. Estrada wrote: track experts by tag: shapado automatically detects people that are experts in some fields. That is to say, if you answer a question about “kde” or “ruby” and get some upvotes, shapado will notice it. Then, if a question gets asked about “kde” or “ruby”, shapado will notify you so you can help people faster (the notification is opt-in). Can a regular user interact with Shapado just like with a mailing-list? At least the question and answer part, though voting up and down would also be great. Yes, I spend a lot of time on mailing lists mainly because I don't particularly like web interfaces. You ask a question, and someone answers. If you find the answer useful, you vote it as correct, and the answerer gets points for that. You also get email notifications if you so wish if you got a new answer. Go have a look and see (ask.debian.net). It's quite a good idea. Given all that, I'm still not sure if this addresses your question? -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlkti=dqkuk-t4bg-rh6wlpji+n0wlv-9wwknfkh...@mail.gmail.com
QTS ( was Re: user support - Shapado instance for Debian)
On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 06:31, Ritesh Raj Sarraf r...@debian.org wrote: I think we need something where in we can inter-relate all communication. Something like Semantic Communication. I have written about this earlier but perhaps right now is the correct time and forum. Here's a use case example: == I am the maintainer for open-iscsi. You have a question/suggestion regarding open-iscsi. Apart from the other folks, I, as the maintainer, am one of the most informed person for this package. What we should have is a question tracking system similar to our bug tracking system. This QTS should also be a bi-gateway to the mailing lists. You use reportbug to file a query on QTS. I, as the maintianer, automatically receive the query. Also, debian-user and other relevant mailing list, gets the message. Users on those lists can choose to answer/ignore. Same way, I can choose to answer. An answer coming from the Package Maintainer will usually be more reliable. At the same time, the Maintainer does not have to answer every message. There will mostly be people responding from the QTS = Mailing List gateway. The Maintainer can also help here as a validator of information being spread about relevant packages. Ultimately, all this information gets publically archived/mined and serves as useful information. == One solution: all package maintainers subscribe to debian-user, and set filters on their respective packages. Would this be sub-optimal? -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktikxpoeggh2y_xxjkvsxhzbncnjgr-tu0z-jb...@mail.gmail.com
Re: On cadence and collaboration
2009/8/16 Andre Felipe Machado andremach...@techforce.com.br: - Given that Debian Project has around 2000 commited devs and last I checked, that number was about 400 DD's who were actually active [0] ([Off Topic and not deserving answer as it is an unqualified suggestion]: Maybe, Canonical could be improve margins if Ubuntu becomes, ACTUALLY, a debian pure blend, differentiating itself with package preconfigurations (preseed) and package sets, and even release dates because pure-blends could release cuts of sid or testing, afaik). Maintaining a distro alone is a costly proposition. But it may not be feasible anymore. Maybe, with improving working collaboration, Ubuntu could come back to be _fully_ Debian source code progressively.) Now the CUT thing is actually something exciting, hard-to-do as it is. -- my place on the web: floss-and-misc.blogspot.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:37, Raphael Hertzoghert...@debian.org wrote: On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, Marc Haber wrote: In fact, I would prefer if Ubuntu had to change _their_ scheduled to accomodate us, if they want to have the advantage of being in sync with us. It's _their_ advantage after all, not ours. I don't mind who changes the date for the other but I really don't agree that doing it is only for Ubuntu's advantage. Nobody in Debian would have taken such a decision, we are Debian developers and have no interest in helping only Ubuntu. What we're speaking of is synergy between both distributions. You know the it's the principle behind “the combination of both is worth more that the sum of individual parts”. We are not only major supplier to Ubuntu, we have our end customers ourselves. I'd prefer that it stayed that way. The synchronization with Ubuntu is not going to remove our identity. We'll keep our user base and the possible improvements in both distributions will help us do better in the competition with other operating systems (proprietary or not). Cheers, Me wholly agrees. Adding to that, the mighty Ian Murdock once stated that if Ubuntu wins, then Debian wins, that Ubuntu is like a variety of Debian. Ubuntu has got their market which Debian failed to capture anyways (desktop), so if they keep honouring publicly stating and recognizing Debian as their upstream, so much the better, why not. And Ubuntu will keep growing whether Debian co-operates or not by the way, cuz their leadership is damn solid. There's some (many) of us who feel that the great Debian culture is irreplaceable, and therefore won't use Ubuntu as their primary OS. So why worry about losing relevance. -- my place on the web: floss-and-misc.blogspot.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 16:51, Ana Guerreroa...@debian.org wrote: Hi, Agnieszka Czajkowska has presented this morning at DebConf a very nice redesign proposal off the Debian logo and the Debian website. She has been working on this all the last year as part of her master thesis in Design. You can take a look at her presentation at: https://penta.debconf.org/dc9_schedule/attachments/112_debian_redesign.tar.gz Watch first the deb_redesign-talk*.jpg images then debian_illustration*.jpg What do you think? :D I love the website look and the logo (nice simple font and the swirl replacing the dot on 'i'), except I will really miss the splattered look of the current swirl. Please don't change the swirl. -- my place on the web: floss-and-misc.blogspot.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:11, Marc Habermh+debian-proj...@zugschlus.de wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:59:05AM +0200, Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: so if they keep honouring publicly stating and recognizing Debian as their upstream, google, debian site:ubuntu.com delivers _one_ hit that is actually inside ubuntu.com. Greetings Marc debian site:www.ubuntu.com gives me over a hundred -- my place on the web: floss-and-misc.blogspot.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:17, Didier 'OdyX' Rabouddid...@raboud.com wrote: Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: There's some (many) of us who feel that the great Debian culture is irreplaceable, and therefore won't use Ubuntu as their primary OS. So why worry about losing relevance. Because if you lose relevance, you lose users (might them be individuals on the desktop or corporate entities on the server). When you lose users you lose contributors and you finally lose developers. In the end, the momentum (sic) slows down and you die. It *might* be that losing relevance on the desktop side is of little importance (which I believe it is _not_), but if corporate entities turn to use Ubuntu LTS because insert a bunch of valuable reasons instead of Debian stable, I fail to see how developers from these corporate entities will contribute to Debian and not to Ubuntu. A distribution without users is just worth nothing, no matter how irreplaceable its culture might be. In the end, synchronising Debian stable and Ubuntu LTS freezes will only make Debian stable appear as weaker (no commercial support, older software, not-so-greater stability, no longer support, less fancy) than Ubuntu LTS. Why would _anybody_ reasonable (and outside of the cultural thing) choose Debian stable over Ubuntu LTS ? You make some strong points here, but how is non-cooperation helping Debian? Debian releases are often behind Ubuntu upstream versions anyways (GNOME, KDE, Linux), so how did that help Debian? If Ubuntu benefits more than Debian, so what. Aren't we in this together? It's like stiffling progress in order to try remain relevant, and isn't that what non-free software vendors do? Oh, and Debian got hundreds of active developers, and I doubt they'll be running to Shuttleworth anytime soon. That's part of the irreplaceable culture that will ensure Debian's continued existence. -- my place on the web: floss-and-misc.blogspot.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:51, Raphael Hertzoghert...@debian.org wrote: On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, Marc Haber wrote: That's what I doubt. Ubuntu LTS will be better than Debian stable in all aspects, why should anybody continue using Debian stable? Why are you using Debian and not Ubuntu? For me: - Debian is where we shape the future - Debian's goals/principles are in sync with my own values - Debian can be used on embedded targets - Debian is stable and more tested (even if we freeze at the same time, we're likely to release after Ubuntu with way more fixes than Ubuntu) This is not going to change and as long as that's true, Debian won't die as we will keep an active development community. This is what I call the great and irreplaceable Debian culture, or what Martin Krafft calls The Debian System. Sorry if I sound like a fanboy, but it's with good reason. World domination does not start with competing with Ubuntu but with competing with all the proprietary systems out there and for this we would certain benefit from more cooperation with Ubuntu. Excellent points you put up here. Wow! -- my place on the web: floss-and-misc.blogspot.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 12:27, Julien BLACHEjbla...@debian.org wrote: Marc Haber mh+debian-proj...@zugschlus.de wrote: Hi, I don't think that we shouldn't time our releases according to what Mark Shuttleworth says. We are not Ubuntu's slave even if they try hard to make it look like that. In fact, I would prefer if Ubuntu had to change _their_ scheduled to accomodate us, if they want to have the advantage of being in sync with us. It's _their_ advantage after all, not ours. Our 18-to-24-month release cycle was a nice vehicle to stay asynchronous with Ubuntu, which _I_ consider a desireable feature to prevent Debian from perishing. We are not only major supplier to Ubuntu, we have our end customers ourselves. I'd prefer that it stayed that way. For the record: I concur fully with Marc's statement above. Changing our release policy to match Ubuntu's LTS, changing our well-established, well-recognized logo for a simplified crap that has nothing special to it... What next? So much anger! The logo thing is mere proposal. If some of our core teams members feel like they'd rather work on Ubuntu, then, by all means, please go ahead and arrange that with Shuttleworth. You'll be better for everybody. Turning Debian into Ubuntu's bitch, however, is not a viable way forward for anybody involved. Don't you think you should have kept quite instead of cursing like this? Did you read Steve Langasek's and Raphael Hertzog's points for one? Did Ubuntu eat your kittens? -- my place on the web: floss-and-misc.blogspot.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 11:40, Luk Claesl...@debian.org wrote: Why doing a 12 months release to get into the new schedule instead of just adopting a 24 months schedule based on the lenny release? [1] The main reason is that the Release Team hopes to now have the momentum to make a time based freeze work. If we would delay, it will very probably mean that many developers 'forget' about what the time based freeze is about. How about using this opportunity to help fulfill the Shuttleworth dream of freezing both Ubuntu LTS and Debian at the same time? He self mentioned he's willing to reach a 'compromise' if Debian or another major distro is willing to co-operate, that is if it's willing to freeze the same upstream versions of key components (Linux, X, GNU toolkit, ...). -- my place on the web: floss-and-misc.blogspot.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: notable Debian contributions in 2006
On 3/24/07, Josip Rodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 02:08:10PM +0200, Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: Distors are often viewed as mere packagers, but they tend to drive upstream development in variety of ways. Here's just a few of Debian's contributions to the world of FLOSS during 2006: * creation of cdrkit, a fork of cdrtools, due to a change of licence which happened to be DFSG-incompatible * rebranding of Firefox to Iceweasel due to trademark issues * rebranding of Seamonkey to Iceape due to trademark issues * rebranding of Thunderbird to Icedove due to trademark issues There must be so much more, in which case I hope you may add to this list, and if there's enough contributions, maybe a wiki page could be set up and advertised. You have your priorities wrong. A fork and three rebrandings are more like nuisances compared to for example the bug reports that Debian maintainers forwarded to upstream, without or with fixes. Sure, maybe those aren't PR-friendly, but they count, and they are the heart of our contribution IMO. I'm pretty aware that there's plenty of these reports and patches. But the point of the mail is 'notable' stuff, EG. the contributions to GTKFB by the d-i team for the graphical-installer (who is actually mentioned in the README file of that backend in GTK+2.10 release). This is the kind of example I was hoping this mail would trigger. Please note that 'notable' doesn't necessarily mean more important. A major refactoring is more likely to be more notable than a year-long patch submission exercise, for example. NB: The GTKFB example inspired this mail -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
notable Debian contributions in 2006
Distors are often viewed as mere packagers, but they tend to drive upstream development in variety of ways. Here's just a few of Debian's contributions to the world of FLOSS during 2006: * creation of cdrkit, a fork of cdrtools, due to a change of licence which happened to be DFSG-incompatible * rebranding of Firefox to Iceweasel due to trademark issues * rebranding of Seamonkey to Iceape due to trademark issues * rebranding of Thunderbird to Icedove due to trademark issues There must be so much more, in which case I hope you may add to this list, and if there's enough contributions, maybe a wiki page could be set up and advertised. (me hopes this is the right list) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Position Statement to the Dunc-Tanc experiment
Thanks for the mail-in-depth On 10/26/06, Joerg Jaspert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [ snip ] Joey Schulze: [5] Debian is a failure This is misrepresentation don't you think? Joey didn't say that Debian is a failure. That's just the title of the blog. [5] http://www.infodrom.org/~joey/log/?200609210757 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Maintainers
On 6/30/06, Mohammed Adnène Trojette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is a summary of the AM reports for the first semester of 2006. 36 applicants became maintainers. [snip] It's truly astounding to have such great expertise in Debian. Congratulations to all and great thanks to the mighty Debian Project...
