Re: Debian redesign
Hi, (please don't CC me) On Tue, 4 Aug 2009 00:06:46 +0100 Roger Leigh rle...@codelibre.net wrote: On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 10:28:33PM +0200, Harald Braumann wrote: I must say, I like the current swirl and I would miss it. But then I'm maybe just conservative. I never understood the sense of re-branding, re-naming, re-designing everything just for the sake of it. I don't know, while the swirl is familiar and everything, there's nothing in it that really jumps out at me and says that's a really great logo that captures what Debian is in the same sense that (off the top of my head) the VMware (in particular) or RedHat/SuSE/FreeBSD logos do. Let's see: VMware: I had to go to their web site to be reminded of their logo. And if I would see it without the vmware wording, I probably wouldn't recognise it. RedHat: well that's easy. But the name Debian doesn't mean anything. If you want smth. similar, you'd have to use pictures of Debra and Ian ;) SuSE: how does a chameleon capture what SuSE is? FreeBSD: Granted, Beastie is cool. But the new abstract logo is also only recognisable, if you know where it came from. The conclusion is: most logos are abstractions, and while they might have had an original meaning, this meaning is usually lost if you don't know the history. They become a symbol that stands for the brand itself. Compare e.g. the Adidas stripes: they don't have any meaning of their own, but everyone knows, it's Adidas. So I wouldn't try too hard to create a logo that has some meaning of its own. Somehow you have to implant the connection logo-brand into the peoples' brains. And as Debian probably doesn't have the advertisement budget of Adidas, this process is much slower. Thus it's important to keep the logo for a long time. If you change it, you have to start all over again There are a lot of similar swirl logos around which look awfully similar (some even having strangely similar spiky bits; the last one I saw was on a bottle of drinking water but in silver rather than red). True. If you put the Debian swirl anywhere, no one would know it's Debian. But if you put it in some IT-context, it's quite unique. I really liked the personality of the Debian chicken, though it wouldn't have hurt to redraw it nicely. Maybe a bit Linux-specific though. I also really liked the black and white GNU + penguin on the old Apache default index page with the proud and mighty Gnu looking down gravely towards the small upstart Penguin! I don't know if its just me, but IMO animals as logos always look a bit stupid and childish. Cheers, harry signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian redesign
On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:51:22 +0200 Ana Guerrero a...@debian.org wrote: Hi, Agnieszka Czajkowska has presented this morning at DebConf a very nice redesign proposal off the Debian logo and the Debian website. She has been working on this all the last year as part of her master thesis in Design. You can take a look at her presentation at: https://penta.debconf.org/dc9_schedule/attachments/112_debian_redesign.tar.gz Watch first the deb_redesign-talk*.jpg images then debian_illustration*.jpg What do you think? :D I must say, I like the current swirl and I would miss it. But then I'm maybe just conservative. I never understood the sense of re-branding, re-naming, re-designing everything just for the sake of it. About the colour: does it really have to be pink? I mean, pink? Really? I like the illustrations, though. I don't want to comment on their advertisement value or what the might or might not say about Debian. But I think it's a good sign they raised a discussion. Any advertising campaign, that doesn't, you can throw in the bin. I especially like the swirly tentacles, that are in all but the last illustration. Similar to the glowing one on www.debian.org. This is a theme that could be used more throughout Debian art and become part of the Debian corporate identity. Cheers, harry Ana -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 10:38:42AM -0400, Matthias Julius wrote: Frans Pop elen...@planet.nl writes: certainly not because I dont like (semi)naked people or whatever - but because I dont like stereotypes, and especially not to represent an universal OS. I can agree to some point with the stereotyping, but that does not change the fact that *nothing* in the posters tells people they should conform to them. What might help avoid stereotypes is to increase the diversity of the people shown. Increase the average age and dress them up completely differently. This could promote the universality aspect. Possibly. I liked the intention of the images, and the way the text slogan related to the picture. However, I wasn't entirely sure what to take from the combination that was specific to Debian. If I didn't already know what Debian was or what it was about, I think I'd be rather confused. If the intent of the whole is to convey particular messages about Debian the Project and the Distribution, I think that (for me at least) it was a bit too subtle, since I didn't really identify with them as representing Debian as I see it. That's not to say I didn't like them. I thought the artwork was *great*, and really thought they were nice. I didn't really find the images semi-naked or inappropriate as others did, though I suspect these images are not entirely representative of the Debian users and developers I know personally ;-) Regards, Roger -- .''`. Roger Leigh : :' : Debian GNU/Linux http://people.debian.org/~rleigh/ `. `' Printing on GNU/Linux? http://gutenprint.sourceforge.net/ `-GPG Public Key: 0x25BFB848 Please GPG sign your mail. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian redesign
On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 10:28:33PM +0200, Harald Braumann wrote: I must say, I like the current swirl and I would miss it. But then I'm maybe just conservative. I never understood the sense of re-branding, re-naming, re-designing everything just for the sake of it. I don't know, while the swirl is familiar and everything, there's nothing in it that really jumps out at me and says that's a really great logo that captures what Debian is in the same sense that (off the top of my head) the VMware (in particular) or RedHat/SuSE/FreeBSD logos do. There are a lot of similar swirl logos around which look awfully similar (some even having strangely similar spiky bits; the last one I saw was on a bottle of drinking water but in silver rather than red). I really liked the personality of the Debian chicken, though it wouldn't have hurt to redraw it nicely. Maybe a bit Linux-specific though. I also really liked the black and white GNU + penguin on the old Apache default index page with the proud and mighty Gnu looking down gravely towards the small upstart Penguin! Regards, Roger -- .''`. Roger Leigh : :' : Debian GNU/Linux http://people.debian.org/~rleigh/ `. `' Printing on GNU/Linux? http://gutenprint.sourceforge.net/ `-GPG Public Key: 0x25BFB848 Please GPG sign your mail. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian redesign
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 04:51:22PM +0200, Ana Guerrero wrote [edited]: You can take a look at her presentation at: https://penta.debconf.org/dc9_schedule/attachments/112_debian_redesign.tar.gz What do you think? :D WRT the pics of the campaign, I find the ensuing discussion rather unproductive without an agreed upon set of objectives and the tradeoffs involved, eg. - What's the relative priority of the different groups of people we're aiming at? DDs and potential new contributors? corporate users? individual users? In other words, should the campaign focus in say attracting more corporate users, or more hackers applying for membership? (pixegirl says people outside the organisation, some debian folks disagree) - Do we want the campaign to be contentious (I'd think not) or as far as possibly inoffensive (and again, these perceptions vary among different kinds of groups)? Seems like many debian folks find pixelgirl's work of high quality but not meeting the desirable tradeoffs. Has there been an agreement or even a discussion about these tradeoffs in any debian list? -S -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Hello, Good questions. And could be added: what values Debian Project wants to be known for? Debian products outcomes have solid values and worth. It should be easier to communicate with truth at your side. The suitable place for these discussions is the debian-publicity list [0]. There are qualified and or interested people regarding these subjects. Even so, the Pixel Girl proposal is broad in scope and debian-www and debian-desktop teams should also be involved. This will involve a good amount of teams work coordination and communication. Regards. Andre Felipe Machado [0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-publicity/ [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-www/ [2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-desktop/ Em Dom, 2009-08-02 às 10:14 +0200, Serafeim Zanikolas escreveu: On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 04:51:22PM +0200, Ana Guerrero wrote [edited]: You can take a look at her presentation at: https://penta.debconf.org/dc9_schedule/attachments/112_debian_redesign.tar.gz What do you think? :D WRT the pics of the campaign, I find the ensuing discussion rather unproductive without an agreed upon set of objectives and the tradeoffs involved, eg. - What's the relative priority of the different groups of people we're aiming at? DDs and potential new contributors? corporate users? individual users? In other words, should the campaign focus in say attracting more corporate users, or more hackers applying for membership? (pixegirl says people outside the organisation, some debian folks disagree) - Do we want the campaign to be contentious (I'd think not) or as far as possibly inoffensive (and again, these perceptions vary among different kinds of groups)? Seems like many debian folks find pixelgirl's work of high quality but not meeting the desirable tradeoffs. Has there been an agreement or even a discussion about these tradeoffs in any debian list? -S -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 07:04:18PM -0300, Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) wrote: [snip] Our current logo's font is [1]Poppl Laudatio Condensed and Berthold sells under different types of licensing, including World Wide licenses. There seems to be some different free alternatives like LaudatioC, but I would say that we can use the same idea gave during the talk about Debian redesign and implement a free alternative for it. (Or somebody can wonder how much would cost a World Wide license :) 1. http://www.bertholdtypes.com/bq_library/90090.html You know, licensing commercial data rather than producing a libre version of it seems to be quite at odds with the Debian way of things. I certainly like the Debian logo, so I don't mind the typeface as such, but I think we should at least use a free version of it. If there's none, we should either use some Debian funds to commission someone to make it (if there's a willing and talented typograph to be found) or change to a different typeface. [snip] Regards: David -- /) David Weinehall t...@debian.org /) Rime on my window (\ // ~ // Diamond-white roses of fire // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Beautiful hoar-frost (/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Hi, On Donnerstag, 30. Juli 2009, Frans Pop wrote: One that will make a statement that women in Debian should always wear deep cleavages, and men in Debian have sex with their laptops. Nice... IMHO you're seriously overreacting here. IMO you are. The posters as I see them do not make the statements that you read into them, that is entirely your interpretation of them. You are aware that this can be said exactly about what you see in them, are you? Marga also wrote the following, which I assume you consider invalid, as it doesnt follow your logic. Anyway, it is reality: I'm sorry, but I really can't accept this. It's not that some people might get offended, it's that some people ALREADY feel uncomfortable about the message being sent. And this is with a low number of people having seen them. And yes, those pics also made me role my eyes and say no way. And certainly not because I dont like (semi)naked people or whatever - but because I dont like stereotypes, and especially not to represent an universal OS. regards, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Debian redesign
On Saturday 01 August 2009, Holger Levsen wrote: On Donnerstag, 30. Juli 2009, Frans Pop wrote: One that will make a statement that women in Debian should always wear deep cleavages, and men in Debian have sex with their laptops. Nice... IMHO you're seriously overreacting here. IMO you are. I disagree. There is IMO nothing in those posters that says that women cannot be involved in Debian unless they show deep cleavages. And the sex with laptops thing is even more farfetched. *That* is the overreaction. And yes, those pics also made me role my eyes and say no way. And s/role/roll/ certainly not because I dont like (semi)naked people or whatever - but because I dont like stereotypes, and especially not to represent an universal OS. I can agree to some point with the stereotyping, but that does not change the fact that *nothing* in the posters tells people they should conform to them. The problem is: stereotyping is a rather effective marketing mechanism... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Yes, I did not notice all of it free. in the original. But I did not because it is in the midst of a chapter, not at the end, and it is not emphasized. This small changes change the meaning. pixelgirl explained she only took the first part of the text. The full text would have ruined the layout. It's the wrong way round: Set up a fine layout and find a matching content. The Debian web site is built the other way round. Another example: Why replace Getting Debian with download. Getting Debian links to a small tutorial about the various ways to - well - get Debian. Why name it download? Because all the others have a download area? To catch generation download? My point is this: The mission of the modern advertising industry is to fool users. All the tools are are designed for this goal. While it seems a nice idea to turn these tools around and use them for good, be aware of the danger: the spirit of advertising may creep in unnoticed and finally turn around the content. Except for getting the country wrong this old limerick sums it up pretty well (with my apologies to the tigers; they are not evil). A smiling young lady from Niger once went for a ride on a tiger. When they came back from the ride, was the lady inside and the smile on the face of the tiger. Werner -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
At Sat, 1 Aug 2009 12:22:29 +0200, Steve Langasek wrote: Because the current website is *all but impossible to navigate*, lacking many of the signposts that users rely on to find their way. On the current Debian website, we have the following sidebar: Getting Debian CD vendors CD ISO images Network install Pre-installed None of these includes the key word download. We should not make users think this hard in order to figure out how to download Debian - that's entirely the wrong kind of elitism! Replacing Getting Debian with download means to drop CD vendors and Pre-installed. Where have they gone? Will have have to click download to be informed about vendors of Debian CDs? The current menu entry reflects the fact that there are various ways to get Debian. These many ways can be confusing, but you sure don't want to drop any of these. A better tutorial text behind Getting Debian would be an improvement, though. I won't agree that the Debian web site is *all but impossible to navigate* (after all it is better than many comercial sites), but I agree that many parts of it could do with a better structure. But this is where to start, design must follow. Getting Debian is elitism because it lacks the signposts and key words? You must be kidding. What kind of hard thinking is required to understand Getting Debian. What do you think of users (not only Debian users)? Do you really have to trigger them with signposts and keywords because they don't understand Getting Debian? Werner -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Hello all, I have read through all your comments, and it appeared that there's a big misunderstanding here concerning the illustrations. Since some of you didn't attend my talk, I'll clarify a few things now: 1. Logo The current swirl has many details that make it hard to print on smaller media and even vectors would not solve the problem. The current font is non-free and would rather fit advertise a box of cigarettes than a software project. The swirl-i-dot for the new logo was inspired by the Genie-Lamp, with a simplified swirl to keep the recognition factor. Since a swirl is quite common in logos, I had to put it in a context with the font, so that it is seen as a whole. The font was chosen to point out a solidness, stability and timelessness to the project. Please note, that the swirl is only fixed to the word debian, its position can be changed with words like debconf easily. 2. Web site My slides just show a fictional sample of the layout. The content is a different chapter, which needs to be discussed in order to usability issues. amount of texts etc... I'll be working with Kalle on that one. 3. Illustrations Keep in mind that the illustrations do not show Debian people. For example, Illustration #3 (The one with the guy in the office) shows an ordinary worker, who's just glad that his boss installed Debian to do his work, so he can concentrate on other things. ;) If any boss or worker would see those illustrations, both would understand the metaphoric/symbolic message. Same applies to the other illustrations, they show situations or emotions around/about Debian, rather than showing the people behind it, except the illustration #6 with the bug fixing, which is based on the history of the term bug itself (I don't have to mention Wikipedia here, do I?). Remember, a campaign does not target people from the inside, it is made for an audience. To find the right way to express a message, you have to see things with their point of view, not just use your own perception. You can't look into people's heads, but with some research, you'll be able to point out larger tendencies. 4. Usage The corporate identity and the campaign are related to one project, but should be treated separately . Both would be used in two different contexts, one is the look and feel, the other would be the advertising. I am not going to subscribe on this list, if you have any further questions, mail me directly or catch me on IRC. :) Cheers, pixelgirl. -- .: it's been a long way /home, baby! :. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Sat, Aug 01 2009, Steve Langasek wrote: On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 11:41:29AM +0200, Werner Baumann wrote: Another example: Why replace Getting Debian with download. Getting Debian links to a small tutorial about the various ways to - well - get Debian. Why name it download? Because all the others have a download area? To catch generation download? Because the current website is *all but impossible to navigate*, lacking many of the signposts that users rely on to find their way. On the current Debian website, we have the following sidebar: Getting Debian CD vendors CD ISO images Network install Pre-installed None of these includes the key word download. We should not make users think this hard in order to figure out how to download Debian - that's entirely the wrong kind of elitism! Sounds like the solution is to perhaps replace CD ISO images with Download CD(images), not replace Getting Debian IOW, the replacement is beig advocated at the wrong heading level. manoj -- Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. Henry Spencer, University of Toronto Unix hack Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 12:10:22PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Getting Debian CD vendors CD ISO images Network install Pre-installed None of these includes the key word download. We should not make users think this hard in order to figure out how to download Debian - that's entirely the wrong kind of elitism! Sounds like the solution is to perhaps replace CD ISO images with Download CD(images), not replace Getting Debian IOW, the replacement is beig advocated at the wrong heading level. On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 07:11:30PM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: How about this: Getting Debian Download images Network install Pre-installed CD vedors Yes, I am not advocating a specific change to the side bar (beyond noting that the word 'Download' is currently missing), I am only reacting to the claim that the website is well-designed as-is - it is not. Rather, it has grown organically over time, and is need of some good usability pruning. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 01-08-2009 13:38, *** pxlgirl *** wrote: [...] 1. Logo The current swirl has many details that make it hard to print on smaller media and even vectors would not solve the problem. The current font is non-free and would rather fit advertise a box of cigarettes than a software project. I beg to differ. I had no problems printing the current logo on business cards, stickers with the size of business cards and pins with 2cm of diameter. To be honest, most of the Debian products we have been producing in Brazil in the last 5 years found no problems with the suppliers regarding the details of Debian's logo, some of the things we made so far includes caps, pins, buttons, two different types of backpacks, t-shirts, CDs/DVDs (and its covers), stickers of various sizes and different types of use. Our current logo's font is [1]Poppl Laudatio Condensed and Berthold sells under different types of licensing, including World Wide licenses. There seems to be some different free alternatives like LaudatioC, but I would say that we can use the same idea gave during the talk about Debian redesign and implement a free alternative for it. (Or somebody can wonder how much would cost a World Wide license :) 1. http://www.bertholdtypes.com/bq_library/90090.html I would also tend to say that different people would have different preferences regarding the use of fonts, either for a box of cigarettes or for a software project. Our current logo holds two different versions,one for Open Use and another for Official Use, and it is still unclear if the logo change would _really_ have a positive impact on our brand. The swirl of the Official Logo is a simplified version and is also used by many of us, that could be an option when one need a simplified swirl. The swirl-i-dot for the new logo was inspired by the Genie-Lamp, with a simplified swirl to keep the recognition factor. Since a swirl is quite common in logos, I had to put it in a context with the font, so that it is seen as a whole. The font was chosen to point out a solidness, stability and timelessness to the project. Please note, that the swirl is only fixed to the word debian, its position can be changed with words like debconf easily. But it seems that wouldn't be possible to detach it from the debian text as we do with the current version of Open Use Logo. [...] 3. Illustrations Keep in mind that the illustrations do not show Debian people. For example, Illustration #3 (The one with the guy in the office) shows an ordinary worker, who's just glad that his boss installed Debian to do his work, so he can concentrate on other things. ;) If any boss or worker would see those illustrations, both would understand the metaphoric/symbolic message. Same applies to the other illustrations, they show situations or emotions around/about Debian, rather than showing the people behind it, except the illustration #6 with the bug fixing, which is based on the history of the term bug itself (I don't have to mention Wikipedia here, do I?). Remember, a campaign does not target people from the inside, it is made for an audience. To find the right way to express a message, you have to see things with their point of view, not just use your own perception. You can't look into people's heads, but with some research, you'll be able to point out larger tendencies. Perhaps some Debian people would like to identify themselves with the proposed campaign, even if they are not the target audience, they are the people behind the project and, in certain way, signing the message, after all, a lot of them gave a lot of their time to help the project. I would say that any new campaign, be it to the outside public or not, should take the feedback from Debian people into consideration and incorporate possible changes to reflect a broader consensus, trying to send the same message. It would be impossible to please all sorts of people but it is probably possible to adopt different aspects to deal with different concerns and still conveys a strong message. 4. Usage The corporate identity and the campaign are related to one project, but should be treated separately . Both would be used in two different contexts, one is the look and feel, the other would be the advertising. Thanks for clarifying this. I would also say that the logo change should be a third different thing, we can improve our look and feel and release a marketing campaign without changing our logos. I am not going to subscribe on this list, if you have any further questions, mail me directly or catch me on IRC. :) As requested, you are cc:ed. I would just point that you should consider join debian-project or another mail list to discuss such topics, that would make easier to get feedback, propose new ideas and move on with the proposals
Re: Debian redesign
Ana Guerrero wrote: Hi, Agnieszka Czajkowska has presented this morning at DebConf a very nice redesign proposal off the Debian logo and the Debian website. She has been working on this all the last year as part of her master thesis in Design. You can take a look at her presentation at: https://penta.debconf.org/dc9_schedule/attachments/112_debian_redesign.tar.gz Watch first the deb_redesign-talk*.jpg images then debian_illustration*.jpg What do you think? :D I'd be happy to see wallpapers/screensavers/gdm artwork to include it in our packages. Cheers, Emilio signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian redesign
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 09:09:40PM +0200, Meike Reichle wrote: * I really want to have a concurrent design on the *.debian.org resources (webpages, packages, bugs, wiki, lists, ...) optimally even a slightly different one for all the *.debian.net stuff. Having a design that can even be taken to business cards, boot screens, wallpapers, DVDs etc ... even better! +1 for corporate identity, and +2 for getting this done before squeeze :) * Aesthetically I am fine with Agnieszka's design as well as kalle's. Slight preference for kalle since I saw more of his (from Agnieszka I only saw a small screenshot) and also because it's technical feasibility is already somewhat established. As others stated before though: I guess we could very well mix the two and have a nice synergy of Agnieszka's portability and recognisability and kalle's clean look and technical feasibility. From a first glance at both of them, I'd say Kalle set up a new stylesheet for an existing layout (e.g. packages view, bugs etc.) while Agnieszka tries to go a step further. I would like to them to find a common line here. I think in some places simplifying the view would be very good but we cannot afford lowing information over it. But this is design which I basically have no clue at all about... :) * Like most DD's I have grown somewhat attached to our current logo. There is already a cleaner version of it in our official logo which is also used quite frequently (mostly without the bottle). Personally I don't mind that much. As long as it remains the swirl and keeps its color I am fine with it. I had a look at a few different variations of the logo as well and must say that I'd prefer keeping it the way it is now. If for printing there is a need to simplify it (e.g. for small logos on T-shirts or whatever) I would still be fine with that. But having a look at our logo in different colors I don't think that keeping the current color is mandatory. If we stay in the same color range I'm totally fine with a change, i.e. it should not be black or green all of the sudden. Anyways, thanks again for the design work. Keep it up and push the changes. :) Hauke signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian redesign
2009/7/29 Ana Guerrero a...@debian.org: What do you think? :D On the posters: I find some of them nice but would not use some of them to advertise the project. On the website design: I would prefer if Kalle's was implemented as it has been 'hatching' for quite a long time already and has demonstrated it is technically feasible. One thing I dislike about *both* proposals is that there is too much white space in the web pages. I would appreciate if somebody (pixelgirl?) could draw us proper icons to use to lighten the pages and use up some of the whitespace (maybe to the right of the text). Adding some images related to the context would actually help the site and make it look much more user-friendly. Regards Javier -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 30-07-2009 07:52, Mark Brown wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 09:19:51AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: The new simplified swirl looks cleaner, and it would be nice to move to a free-er font. The example changes to the website made it look Might it be worth considering using the new font so on even if we end up keeping the current swirl? The proposal during DebConf used a non-free font with a free alternative and some people raised the idea of creating a new one, well, the same idea applies to our current logo's font, it's just a matter of implement it (and yes, Font Copyright is different from Software/Trademark). There is no basis to say that the logo/font change would have a positive impact in our brand. Kind regards, - -- Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) Debian. Freedom to code. Code to freedom! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEAREIAAYFAkpyvBkACgkQCjAO0JDlykYuQwCffQOu4bG4q6hVCcDIR8/oL94r 42YAnjsNpoUNa71VKW+uEM9vDGx2cELt =ECsz -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
I'm using Debian for about ten years now and I use it because Debian is different. While I appreciate the intention to position Debian better I am concerned about the general direction, I am missing what I think the most important values of Debian. a modern look, a modern operating System (deb_redesign-talk1.jpg) it's adapting their image with the time we live in (deb_redesign-talk2.jpg) What's modern and what is the time we live in with respect to software? It is - taking away control over the user's computer from the user - releasing unfinished software for the benefit of market share - fighting competing software (and free software) with patents - intentional incompatibilities for vendor lock in - simply: fighting user freedom for the sake of share holder value. And it's getting more and more aggressive in this times we live in. How is Debian related to this? Just one way: stand up against. What is an image campaign? Image campaigns are used by the advertising industry and everybody knows: it's all about lying. It is the very essence of an image campaign to *not* talk about the product but to try to associate the product with something completely unrelated, something customers think positive about, something they desire (unconsciously). - smoke this brand of cigarette to feel free and have adventures - drive this car (200 kW) to save our environment - use this product and young women will queue up to kiss your feet (or whatever). Debian must spread information not construct an image. Some examples from debian_redesign and why I'm worried: deb_redesign-talk7.jpg shows a proposal for the Debian home page. It starts with what is debian? and ends with all of it free. (in bold). At the moment at http://www.debian.org/intro/about this is It's all free? (mark the question mark) and it starts an *explanation* why this can be. This is what makes Debian different. You don't promise free beer, you explain what free software is all about. While it may seem desirable to make Debian web pages look more light and fresh: Debian web pages will stay mostly text. You need text to explain. Debian is not Everything is easy. Just click and follow the instructions. No need to understand. Debian is You want to know how it works? Here is the (lengthy) explanation. debian_illustration1.jpg to debian_illustration6.jpg show young people using debian. While from an European point of view its difficult to find something sexually offending, the message is: People using Debian are young and pretty and sexy. Sorry, during the ten years of using Debian my beard became grey and I will reach the age of 60 soon. Debian didn't help. Should I use Ubuntu instead, or Windows? (And I will not talk about all that young women surrounding me I'm missing.) Debian is not young and sexy. Debian is an operating system (and more). It is rock solid. It is developed by a community dedicated to free software. Please stay Debian (including your image). Werner Baumann -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 06:40:41AM -0300, Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) wrote: On 30-07-2009 07:52, Mark Brown wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 09:19:51AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: The new simplified swirl looks cleaner, and it would be nice to move to a free-er font. The example changes to the website made it look Might it be worth considering using the new font so on even if we end up keeping the current swirl? The proposal during DebConf used a non-free font with a free alternative and some people raised the idea of creating a new one, well, the same idea applies to our current logo's font, it's just a matter of implement it (and yes, Font Copyright is different from Software/Trademark). Oh, right. From what Steve said I'd understood that the font in the new logo was already freer than the existing one. There is no basis to say that the logo/font change would have a positive impact in our brand. I broadly agree, though for the font having a free font would be a win anyway. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Hello, Werner Baumann wrote: I'm using Debian for about ten years now and I use it because Debian is different. While I appreciate the intention to position Debian better I am concerned about the general direction, I am missing what I think the most important values of Debian. +1 our web pages need an overhaul. We have an interest to explain ourselves to the non-Debian world and guide ourselves through the ongoing Debian-associated activities. That communication is happening via the web and such genuine interest should be driving development of the pages. We can certainly learn from the success that Ubuntu has, but we should not try to mimic or chase them. In the contrary, we should be happy about every Debian package that is brought to a wider audience with it (2.5:1 ratio in in favour of Ubuntu on popcon for my packages). And I think we are happy. I liked some of the redesign posters, and they should possibly be sold as geekware. But they could substitute Debian with everything else, even with the Redmond OS. However, when attracting some teenagers or so, of which some will only learn about computing, it may be lovely to have some more spiritual messages for them that go beyond free. For instance I suggest to mention education, world-wide contacts, fun and doing something good for the world. Steffen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Dne, 31. 07. 2009 12:51:04 je Werner Baumann napisal(a): I'm using Debian for about ten years now and I use it because Debian is different. While I appreciate the intention to position Debian better I am concerned about the general direction, I am missing what I think the most important values of Debian. a modern look, a modern operating System (deb_redesign-talk1.jpg) it's adapting their image with the time we live in (deb_redesign-talk2.jpg) What's modern and what is the time we live in with respect to software? It is - taking away control over the user's computer from the user - releasing unfinished software for the benefit of market share - fighting competing software (and free software) with patents - intentional incompatibilities for vendor lock in - simply: fighting user freedom for the sake of share holder value. And it's getting more and more aggressive in this times we live in. How is Debian related to this? Just one way: stand up against. What is an image campaign? Image campaigns are used by the advertising industry and everybody knows: it's all about lying. It is the very essence of an image campaign to *not* talk about the product but to try to associate the product with something completely unrelated, something customers think positive about, something they desire (unconsciously). - smoke this brand of cigarette to feel free and have adventures - drive this car (200 kW) to save our environment - use this product and young women will queue up to kiss your feet (or whatever). Debian must spread information not construct an image. Some examples from debian_redesign and why I'm worried: deb_redesign-talk7.jpg shows a proposal for the Debian home page. It starts with what is debian? and ends with all of it free. (in bold). At the moment at http://www.debian.org/intro/about this is It's all free? (mark the question mark) and it starts an *explanation* why this can be. This is what makes Debian different. You don't promise free beer, you explain what free software is all about. While it may seem desirable to make Debian web pages look more light and fresh: Debian web pages will stay mostly text. You need text to explain. Debian is not Everything is easy. Just click and follow the instructions. No need to understand. Debian is You want to know how it works? Here is the (lengthy) explanation. debian_illustration1.jpg to debian_illustration6.jpg show young people using debian. While from an European point of view its difficult to find something sexually offending, the message is: People using Debian are young and pretty and sexy. Sorry, during the ten years of using Debian my beard became grey and I will reach the age of 60 soon. Debian didn't help. Should I use Ubuntu instead, or Windows? (And I will not talk about all that young women surrounding me I'm missing.) Debian is not young and sexy. Debian is an operating system (and more). It is rock solid. It is developed by a community dedicated to free software. Please stay Debian (including your image). Werner Baumann -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org As a Debian user I can only say: couldn't agree more. Your words sum it up magnificiently: How is Debian related to this? Just one way: stand up against. In my view, Debian is far less about image and far more about substance than any competing product (or any product in general, for that matter). Let those who have no substance to show worry about image. There's hardly a better way to keep gathering prominence than just by staying Debian. Or a harder one: keeping up such high standards of software quality and software freedom is not an easy task. -- Certifiable Loonix User 481801 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Klistvud wrote: In my view, Debian is far less about image and far more about substance than any competing product (or any product in general, for that matter). Not that I don't agree with that, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't care about our image at all. We can improve the distribution and it's image at the same time, can't we? Cheers, Emilio signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian redesign
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 05:18:28PM +0200, Emilio Pozuelo Monfort wrote: Klistvud wrote: In my view, Debian is far less about image and far more about substance than any competing product (or any product in general, for that matter). Not that I don't agree with that, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't care about our image at all. We can improve the distribution and it's image at the same time, can't we? Yes, we can! ...and should imo. Hauke signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian redesign
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 12:51:04PM +0200, Werner Baumann wrote: Some examples from debian_redesign and why I'm worried: deb_redesign-talk7.jpg shows a proposal for the Debian home page. It starts with what is debian? and ends with all of it free. (in bold). At the moment at http://www.debian.org/intro/about this is It's all free? (mark the question mark) and it starts an *explanation* why this can be. This is what makes Debian different. You don't promise free beer, you explain what free software is all about. Read http://www.debian.org/intro/about again, there is the exact same sentence (all of it free), two lines before It's all free?. pixelgirl explained she only took the first part of the text. Also note the page is totally fictional, as the menu on the left is showing News as highlighted while the text on the right is nothing related to news. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Neil McGovern maul...@halon.org.uk (30/07/2009): I disagree. The images for the males are just as suggestive. I have no issue at all with these. Ditto. Thanks for the nice work, Agnieszka! Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian redesign
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 07:56:31PM +0200, Fathi Boudra wrote:
I don't like much the illustration and prefer Kalle's design.
About the logo, I like current logo and don't see why we need a new one.
Well, there are arguments for having *some* changes to our current
logo. In particular we usually use the same image of it and simply
scale it up or down depending to the needs. On the contrary, usually
good logos (or icons FWIW) should have different versions meant to be
bigger or smaller. That way the smaller one can be simpler and look
better when printed. [1]
Those however are not good arguments to change a logo tout court,
especially if there is a logo which have been agreed upon by voting.
I wonder why, given those graphical talented people that we have
around, we don't come with precise requests, like: can you please
provide smaller version of our logos that look good when printed?.
Cheers.
[1] actually, we have some smaller and simpler version of our logo
around, but AFAIK we have never make official any of them
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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Re: Debian redesign
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 04:51:22PM +0200, Ana Guerrero wrote: Hi, Agnieszka Czajkowska has presented this morning at DebConf a very nice redesign proposal off the Debian logo and the Debian website. She has been working on this all the last year as part of her master thesis in Design. You can take a look at her presentation at: https://penta.debconf.org/dc9_schedule/attachments/112_debian_redesign.tar.gz Watch first the deb_redesign-talk*.jpg images then debian_illustration*.jpg What do you think? :D I like her ideas. :-) The new simplified swirl looks cleaner, and it would be nice to move to a free-er font. The example changes to the website made it look much nicer, but there will clearly be a lot of work beyond the mock-ups to actually implement changes that we can use. Agnieszka, I hope you're talking already to Rhonda and the other debian-www folks to help work out those details... -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com C++ ate my sanity -- Jon Rabone -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 16:51, Ana Guerreroa...@debian.org wrote: Hi, Agnieszka Czajkowska has presented this morning at DebConf a very nice redesign proposal off the Debian logo and the Debian website. She has been working on this all the last year as part of her master thesis in Design. You can take a look at her presentation at: https://penta.debconf.org/dc9_schedule/attachments/112_debian_redesign.tar.gz Watch first the deb_redesign-talk*.jpg images then debian_illustration*.jpg What do you think? :D I love the website look and the logo (nice simple font and the swirl replacing the dot on 'i'), except I will really miss the splattered look of the current swirl. Please don't change the swirl. -- my place on the web: floss-and-misc.blogspot.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 09:19:51AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: The new simplified swirl looks cleaner, and it would be nice to move to a free-er font. The differences between the free/not-free fonts in the sample logos are so small that I seriously doubt anyone other than a font geek would (a) notice, or (b) bother looking... Regarding the risque-ness of the illustrations: it's possibly a shame that debian_illustration1.jpg is the first in the sequence (it somewhat sets a level of expectation); but it's also a shame that people seem not to have noticed the tagline at the top left - for that image it's software with passion and the image is a play on those words. Having read much of this thread before I had chance to view the images, I find I like them more than I expected to. I'd be happy to see them used to advertise Debian. Cheers, Dave -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Steve McIntyre st...@einval.com wrote: Hi, The new simplified swirl looks cleaner, and it would be nice to move to a free-er font. I'm sorry to say, but the simplified swirl sucks plain and simple and the free font is so bad I'd be ashamed to use it for a logo (actually it's so bad I'd rather use Comic Sans). Also that font is so standard it's not recognizable; it doesn't have anything special, eye-catching like our current logo has. It's a FAIL. JB. -- Julien BLACHE - Debian GNU/Linux Developer - jbla...@debian.org Public key available on http://www.jblache.org - KeyID: F5D6 5169 GPG Fingerprint : 935A 79F1 C8B3 3521 FD62 7CC7 CD61 4FD7 F5D6 5169 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 12:21:43PM +0200, Julien BLACHE wrote: I'm sorry to say, but the simplified swirl sucks plain and simple and the free font is so bad I'd be ashamed to use it for a logo (actually it's so bad I'd rather use Comic Sans). Also that font is so standard it's not recognizable; it doesn't have anything special, eye-catching like our current logo has. It's a FAIL. Thank you for your positive contribution, much appreciated. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com We don't need no education. We don't need no thought control. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 09:19:51AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: The new simplified swirl looks cleaner, and it would be nice to move to a free-er font. The example changes to the website made it look Might it be worth considering using the new font so on even if we end up keeping the current swirl? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 04:51:22PM +0200, Ana Guerrero wrote: Hi, Hi, Agnieszka Czajkowska has presented this morning at DebConf a very nice redesign proposal off the Debian logo and the Debian website. She has been working on this all the last year as part of her master thesis in Design. You can take a look at her presentation at: https://penta.debconf.org/dc9_schedule/attachments/112_debian_redesign.tar.gz Watch first the deb_redesign-talk*.jpg images then debian_illustration*.jpg What do you think? :D Personally I think it's a wonderful work, and a very interesting exercise in producing a debian marketing campain. I agree with the mixed feelings about the tout court logo changing (which, if it happens, should anyway be sanctioned by GR, as the last one was decided that way, as correctly recalled by someone) but the simplified swirl can definitely be used in a lot of situations, and the proposed website looks very nice! As for the images I don't share the concerns some have expressed, and think they're just a marketing campain. Some are probably better and to the point, and some might be less, but I don't think we should be offended by them. Just as an example I'll include a link to a picture for a commercial for the HTC magic (which I randomly happen to have on my laptop because, working for Google, I found it funny and took a picture of it): http://people.debian.org/~ultrotter/misc/q1050732.jpg I don't think people will be offended by looking at it, as they won't be offended by looking at pixelgirl's images. If it conveys or not its message I'm not 100% sure, but it's not for me to say (I'm not an expert in the field). In pixelgirl's case for example I think the reliable parner image is a nice pun, and goes to the point, while the software with passion one is less, and wouldn't put bugs in advertisement, but then someone else might think differently, and I don't think we should be in the business of censoring ideas/art! :) Guido -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:52:43AM +0100, Mark Brown wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 09:19:51AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: The new simplified swirl looks cleaner, and it would be nice to move to a free-er font. The example changes to the website made it look Might it be worth considering using the new font so on even if we end up keeping the current swirl? I'd be happy to consider that, yes. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com I've only once written 'SQL is my bitch' in a comment. But that code is in use on a military site... -- Simon Booth -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Guido Trotter ultrot...@debian.org (30/07/2009): Personally I think it's a wonderful work, and a very interesting exercise in producing a debian marketing campain. I agree with the mixed feelings about the tout court logo changing (which, if it happens, should anyway be sanctioned by GR, as the last one was decided that way, as correctly recalled by someone) but the simplified swirl can definitely be used in a lot of situations, and the proposed website looks very nice! As for the images I don't share the concerns some have expressed, and think they're just a marketing campain. Some are probably better and to the point, and some might be less, but I don't think we should be offended by them. Just as an example I'll include a link to a picture for a commercial for the HTC magic (which I randomly happen to have on my laptop because, working for Google, I found it funny and took a picture of it): http://people.debian.org/~ultrotter/misc/q1050732.jpg I don't think people will be offended by looking at it, as they won't be offended by looking at pixelgirl's images. If it conveys or not its message I'm not 100% sure, but it's not for me to say (I'm not an expert in the field). In pixelgirl's case for example I think the reliable parner image is a nice pun, and goes to the point, while the software with passion one is less, and wouldn't put bugs in advertisement, but then someone else might think differently, and I don't think we should be in the business of censoring ideas/art! :) I guess I'm not used to do that very often, but that would those little “+1” characters. We discussed that quite extensively with Guido during last dinner, and I totally share his opinion. Sounds like a very well performed marketing campaign. Again: thanks, Agnieszka. Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian redesign
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Cyril Bruleboisk...@debian.org wrote: We discussed that quite extensively with Guido during last dinner, and I totally share his opinion. Sounds like a very well performed marketing campaign. Again: thanks, Agnieszka. One that will make a statement that women in Debian should always wear deep cleavages, and men in Debian have sex with their laptops. Nice... I'm sorry, but I really can't accept this. It's not that some people might get offended, it's that some people ALREADY feel uncomfortable about the message being sent. Don't get me wrong, I do like the drawings, and I congratulate pixelgirl on her job, if it's only for her thesis. Also, I do consider that having some campaign like this would be nice. But PLEASE, not with this message. And please don't tell me that if I don't like it, then I'm free not to use the posters myself, cause I'm a part of Debian, and if a campaign that is supposed to promote Debian goes against my principles I can't simply ignore it. -- Besos, Marga -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Thursday 30 July 2009, Margarita Manterola wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Cyril Bruleboisk...@debian.org wrote: We discussed that quite extensively with Guido during last dinner, and I totally share his opinion. Sounds like a very well performed marketing campaign. Again: thanks, Agnieszka. One that will make a statement that women in Debian should always wear deep cleavages, and men in Debian have sex with their laptops. Nice... IMHO you're seriously overreacting here. The posters as I see them do not make the statements that you read into them, that is entirely your interpretation of them. Not everything that is sensual is discriminatory. Cheers, FJP -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 19:12, Lars Wirzeniusl...@liw.fi wrote: ke, 2009-07-29 kello 12:46 -0300, Margarita Manterola kirjoitti: Discussing about this on irc, some people seemed to agree with my view that the female images are too sexual, and that the image of the notebook on the pillow is disturbing. I agree with Marga in that I don't think these images are appropriate for marketing Debian. This doesn't detract at all their artistic and other qualities, but I don't think we as a project should use sexuality, eroticism, or nude figures, to market ourselves. It is not just ethically wrong and degrading, it also tells people we have no substance. Relating to sexuality, eroticism or the human body is ethically wrong and degrading? I almost feel offended by that statement. You're not talking about sexism, objetification or anything but things that are common to almost everybody in this planet. -- Martín Ferrari -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Martín Ferrari wrote: You're not talking about sexism, objetification or anything but things that are common to almost everybody in this planet. So what? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian redesign
Hi all, I am still at DebConf and rather swamped so please excuse the telegraphese ... * I really want to have a concurrent design on the *.debian.org resources (webpages, packages, bugs, wiki, lists, ...) optimally even a slightly different one for all the *.debian.net stuff. Having a design that can even be taken to business cards, boot screens, wallpapers, DVDs etc ... even better! * Aesthetically I am fine with Agnieszka's design as well as kalle's. Slight preference for kalle since I saw more of his (from Agnieszka I only saw a small screenshot) and also because it's technical feasibility is already somewhat established. As others stated before though: I guess we could very well mix the two and have a nice synergy of Agnieszka's portability and recognisability and kalle's clean look and technical feasibility. * Like most DD's I have grown somewhat attached to our current logo. There is already a cleaner version of it in our official logo which is also used quite frequently (mostly without the bottle). Personally I don't mind that much. As long as it remains the swirl and keeps its color I am fine with it. * I didn't like what was said in the talk about the swirl *having* to be at this particular position (above the i) and nowhere else. Debian is a remix culture and as everything else our logo has been remixed a lot: by us (for example for the DebConf logos) as well as by others. There are 2-D and 3-D versions of it, it has been combined with the anarchy A, the GNU gnu and tux himself of course, it has been turned into a beer-logo, a six, a nine, a five, a brain, ... it has been over, under, next to and even overlayed with the debian name, and these are just the very obvious variations I found on the first couple google pages. So saying that the swirl and the debian are a fixed combination and may only be used exactly like this is in may eyes simply not implementable. (Especially since the logo should be put under a free license anyway.) I can very well understand how a designer would want this but I don't think it would work out.There are quite a couple of really creative Debian-enthusiasts out there and they will proceed with any new logo as they did with the old. * Regarding the posters, I like some of them, but not all. debian_illustration1.jpg is fine with me, so is debian_illustration2.jpg. I don't mind debian_illustration3.jpg either. Frankly a laptop on the pillow is not entirely unseen for myself. Though I do try to put it away before falling asleep ;) Seeing debian_illustration4.jpg my first impression was guy consuming porn, thinking about getting more using his trusted Debian. Very much NOT what I want to communicate or support. debian_illustration5.jpg is okay again, I like the inclusion of mobile devices in the campaign. debian_illustration6.jpg looks pretty weird to me, the dimensions and perspective don't seem to fit and I don't really see how a guy fighting bugs or wasps or something can advertise Debian. These are of course all first impressions, but I guess with posters those are most important. Picking up on the concerns expressed by Marta ... having all the posters side by side, yes, one does notice that while there were proper shirts and T-shirts for the guys there were apparently only rather flimsy spaghetti strap tops left for the (obvious) girls. (Some of the people I cannot really tell what they are, but I think that's actually okay. I also couldn't help but notice that the girls come with pink as the contrast color and the guys with blue. :)) If the poster's were meant to give an impression of the average Debian user base I guess it would be worth considering that there are also a couple of us living in cooler regions. Also you can still have a girl look like a girl, even without seeing the body at all (One very good example for this is http://deifl-web.de/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_debian-girl.jpg). Agreeing with many others though: As long as these do not become official Debian advertising material I don't mind that much. (And I don't think they will, as far as I remember Debian has never embraced any particular artwork apart from the swirl as being official.) So much for now, off to (my last DebConf) dinner. *sniff* Best regards, Meike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
* Ana Guerrero a...@debian.org [2009-07-29 17:35:40 CEST]: On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 05:23:41PM +0200, Patrick Schoenfeld wrote: Nice. Now we have two approaches on redesigning parts of Debian. I do like the design as proposed by Kalle somewhat better. Cool, Care to give a link? http://rhonda.deb.at/blog/debian/2009/07/28 So long, Rhonda -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Hello, The art and design proposal are interesting. The logo should be discussed and voted as the current one was, and it is not essential to change. Some ideas behind its redesign could be backported to the current logo, as to choose some nice looking free font instead of a proprietary one, and good scaling capability. The posters do not send the right message about the values of Debian but were well crafted. They are proposals. A possible requirement for global posters could be suitability for different cultures, (something nice at Amsterdan could be offensive at Saudi Arabia, for example; something positive at NY could be depressive at China, another example). The site and imagery proposal (cards, cd covers, banners, templates, etc) is interesting and worth an evaluation by all. But why not join efforts with the www-team, also? I remember when Pixelgirl approached other debian-list and explained its concepts [3] and coordination problems were pointed already there [5]. The Project is in need of qualified people and welcome efforts, but these valuable efforts should be maximized without double, or conflicting, or un coordinated actions (as already stated by FAW and Rhonda). The Pixelgirl proposal is broader than a site redesign. And the site redesign is a giant task itself, with many many constraints and requirements [6], as Kalle is demonstrating [1]. The Project could consider the PixelGirl proposal as it is: a good proposal for discussion and improvements. Please, do not shoot the initiative in the head, but direct it to the right direction. Please, invite her to join the other teams involved [4][6][7][8] at the tasks covered by her work. Also, invite her to join efforts with Rhonda and Kalle advanced stage work. Regards. Andre Felipe [0] http://rhonda.deb.at/blog/debian/2009/07/28 [1] http://www.kalleswork.net/projects/debian/ [2] https://penta.debconf.org/dc9_schedule/attachments/112_debian_redesign.tar.gz [3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-publicity/2008/08/msg00084.html [4] http://lists.debian.org/debian-publicity/2008/08/msg00097.html [5] http://lists.debian.org/debian-publicity/2008/08/msg00102.html [6] http://wiki.debian.org/DebianWebSiteProject [7] http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-desktop/ [8] http://www.debian.org/devel/website/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Debian redesign
Hi, Agnieszka Czajkowska has presented this morning at DebConf a very nice redesign proposal off the Debian logo and the Debian website. She has been working on this all the last year as part of her master thesis in Design. You can take a look at her presentation at: https://penta.debconf.org/dc9_schedule/attachments/112_debian_redesign.tar.gz Watch first the deb_redesign-talk*.jpg images then debian_illustration*.jpg What do you think? :D Ana -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 04:51:22PM +0200, Ana Guerrero wrote: Agnieszka Czajkowska has presented this morning at DebConf a very nice redesign proposal off the Debian logo and the Debian website. She has been working on this all the last year as part of her master thesis in Design. You can take a look at her presentation at: https://penta.debconf.org/dc9_schedule/attachments/112_debian_redesign.tar.gz Watch first the deb_redesign-talk*.jpg images then debian_illustration*.jpg What do you think? :D Nice. Now we have two approaches on redesigning parts of Debian. I do like the design as proposed by Kalle somewhat better. Best Regards, Patrick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Patrick Schoenfeldschoenf...@debian.org wrote: Nice. Now we have two approaches on redesigning parts of Debian. I do like the design as proposed by Kalle somewhat better. I don't think the designs are mutually exclusive. The new logo and the general style proposed by pixelgirl can be applied to the work already done by Kalle, to obtain a complete new image. On the other hand, I have to voice my concerns about the image campaign. I have already mailed her privately and ask her to modify them a bit, to remove some bits that wouldn't transmit the right idea about Debian, but I want to also state my opinion publicly, not to flame her, but to be able to hear what other people have to say about this. Discussing about this on irc, some people seemed to agree with my view that the female images are too sexual, and that the image of the notebook on the pillow is disturbing. Some other people seemed to think that I was exaggerating and being stubborn about wanting these issues, and that if I had a problem with them, I could just not use them. While I think that the posters are beutifully made, and I get some of the jokes intended, I think that for us to use these images, as wallpapers, or t-shirt images, or the like, we should make sure that they transmit the right ideas about Debian. I don't think that they currently do. If I'm wrong and the rest of the project thinks they do, please let me know. -- Besos, Marga -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
ke, 2009-07-29 kello 12:46 -0300, Margarita Manterola kirjoitti: Discussing about this on irc, some people seemed to agree with my view that the female images are too sexual, and that the image of the notebook on the pillow is disturbing. I agree with Marga in that I don't think these images are appropriate for marketing Debian. This doesn't detract at all their artistic and other qualities, but I don't think we as a project should use sexuality, eroticism, or nude figures, to market ourselves. It is not just ethically wrong and degrading, it also tells people we have no substance. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 08:12:48PM +0300, Lars Wirzenius wrote: I agree with Marga in that I don't think these images are appropriate for marketing Debian. This doesn't detract at all their artistic and other qualities, but I don't think we as a project should use sexuality, eroticism, or nude figures, to market ourselves. It is not just ethically wrong and degrading, it also tells people we have no substance. I'm not sure a man fighting off bugs is a great image to put about either ;) The posters are beautiful and clearly drawn with love and care, and I like them. However, I agree that the figures need more clothes before they are suitable for marketing the project. -- Jonathan Wiltshire 1024D: 0xDB800B52 / 4216 F01F DCA9 21AC F3D3 A903 CA6B EA3E DB80 0B52 4096R: 0xD3524C51 / 0A55 B7C5 1223 3942 86EC 74C3 5394 479D D352 4C51 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian redesign
Hi, On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Ana Guerreroa...@debian.org wrote: What do you think? :D I don't like much the illustration and prefer Kalle's design. About the logo, I like current logo and don't see why we need a new one. cheers, Fathi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Hi! Fathi Boudra schrieb: What do you think? :D I don't like much the illustration and prefer Kalle's design. About the logo, I like current logo and don't see why we need a new one. I agree, especially about the logo. While our current logo is quite well known and associated to us -- just recently we got an E-Mail from an OpenSuSE user, informing us, that someone is using a similar logo on his website, and that we should do something about that! It's well known and while not unique kind of rare in the way it is currently. In see no benefit in replacing it with a watery version which is even less unique. Best regards, Alexander -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 05:23:41PM +0200, Patrick Schoenfeld wrote: Nice. Now we have two approaches on redesigning parts of Debian. I do like the design as proposed by Kalle somewhat better. Cool, Care to give a link? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 12:46:04PM -0300, Margarita Manterola wrote: Discussing about this on irc, some people seemed to agree with my view that the female images are too sexual, and that the image of the notebook on the pillow is disturbing. Some other people seemed to think that I was exaggerating and being stubborn about wanting these issues, and that if I had a problem with them, I could just not use them. I would not be happy using them to advertise Debian for similar reasons to marga. The images are just part of her thesis and she wanted to show them as examples of what she has in mind, they are not meant to be used by Debian at all. Looks like part of Agnieska's thesis was creating a marketing/advertising campaign and as it is usual in this field, she draw images that are meant to be remembered by the public for some reason (like/dislike/original/polemic/ etc) Ana -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 07:56:31PM +0200, Fathi Boudra wrote: About the logo, I like current logo and don't see why we need a new one. I do not buy the argument that several companies changed their logo. These might have their reasons over a certain *timespan* and they might have experts to calculate the effect on their customers. I see no reason at all to switch from the current (not really old fashioned) logo and I do not think that we could risk as a small non-commercial project (compared to the given examples) that our logo we advertised for a not so long timespan becomes outdated and our users might become unhappy about outdated T-Shirts etc. Makes no sense at all and I do not see the slightest advantage for the project. On the other hand redesigning the web page (while using the old logo) seems really worth doing. Thanks for the suggestion anyway Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
Andreas Tille andr...@an3as.eu writes: I do not think that we could risk as a small non-commercial project (compared to the given examples) that our logo we advertised for a not so long timespan becomes outdated and our users might become unhappy about outdated T-Shirts etc. Gives one a good reason to buy new T-Shirts. I seriously doubt users overall will be unhappy about outdated T-Shirts. They will welcome the variety. Gives them something new to wear. Makes no sense at all and I do not see the slightest advantage for the project. One argument raised for the simplified swirl was that it would scale better. More recognisable as our logo in smaller sizes and easier to print. Not sure I agree with that but I have never printed swirl buttons or the like either. MfG Goswin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian redesign
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 12:46:04PM -0300, Margarita Manterola wrote: Discussing about this on irc, some people seemed to agree with my view that the female images are too sexual, and that the image of the notebook on the pillow is disturbing. I disagree. The images for the males are just as suggestive. I have no issue at all with these. Neil -- A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion Q. Why is top posting bad? gpg key - http://www.halon.org.uk/pubkey.txt ; the.earth.li A40F862E -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
