debbugs status (Re: Help bringing bugs.debian.org / debbugs back on track)
Hi Paul, Paul Wise wrote: On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 8:51 AM, Filipus Klutiero wrote: However, I am not convinced that development of bugs.debian.org should go through Debbugs development. Unfortunately, I am not an ITS-s expert, and I can't recommend a particular engine. There are many free ITS engines, some of which are worst, but in general, as an engine user, I do not like Debbugs compared to most other engines. Debbugs's technology doesn't look great, but I'm entirely unaware of the internals. My skepticism on its future really comes from the current number of users and developers, and most importantly its advancement compared to alternatives. I can only agree that the ITS needs help and that Debbugs can use development, but I'm not convinced that's an optimal use of our currently nearly inexistent ITS manpower (see https://lists.debian.org/stats/debian-debbugs.png ). Please don't switch bugs.debian.org away from debbugs. I don't want to have to leave the Debian project but some misguided folks doing that would be one of the triggers for that. None of the other bug tracking systems have anywhere near the amount of features or usability that debbugs has. Switching bugs.debian.org away from Debbugs does not mean switching to another ITS engine in its current form. As discussed, migrating from Debbugs would involve implementing some features Lucas mentioned which the average ITS engine doesn't have (unless one would have them all, which is as unlikely as desirable). Lucas has mentioned some features, feel free to mention others. Even better, let's try to make http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_issue-tracking_systems reflect Debbugs's feature richness as much as possible. Currently, what it reflects looks like the opposite of your perception. I'm not sure if version tracking should be mentioned and, if so, how (version tracking is short, but doesn't really say what we mean by that). [...] -- Filipus Klutiero http://www.philippecloutier.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5265ebe8.2020...@gmail.com
Re: Help bringing bugs.debian.org / debbugs back on track
Hi Steve, Steve McIntyre wrote: On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 08:51:15PM -0400, Filipus Klutiero wrote: Thanks for bringing this up, our ITS definitely needs love. I investigated the ITS team in 2010 and found it was already broken (although one member disagreed with that assessment, qualifying the team's status as fine). The most urgent issue must be fixing the administration of bugs.debian.org, but development should also be a priority. To set the record straight for anybody fortunate enough to not have any background here: Filipus / Philippe / chealer (to pick some of his names) has been a thorn in the side of the BTS admins for several years. My own experience from talking with him and the BTS folks is that he's very difficult to deal with. If expressing a bad opinion of a contributor to debian-project constitutes a constructive contribution, I imagine it would also be a constructive contribution to let that contributor know when you develop that bad opinion. Or do even better, and tell the contributor why you hold such an opinion. His broken comment above undoubtedly refers to his experiences when he was banned from using a lot of the BTS features for abuse. The broken comment above refers to an investigation of the ITS team which started in 2007, and which lea...@debian.org was made aware of. As such, if there is anybody whose opinions should be ignored more about how our bug tracker should be run and developed, I would struggle to identify such a person. Thank you for reading. Thank you for writing this. I'm happy to see that you regained interest in our ITS. Would it be reasonable to expect that you will find enough time to answer the mail below, given that you found the time needed for writing an ad hominem attack^W^W^Wunbiased and perfectly neutral informative warning on the topic? On 2010-03-31 17:25, Filipus Klutiero wrote: Le décembre 15, 2008 12:48:19 PM, Filipus Klutiero a écrit : Le December 15, 2008 05:57:56 am, vous avez écrit : On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 02:37:55AM -0500, Filipus Klutiero wrote: Hi Steve, in September, I contacted you regarding an investigation on the administration of bugs.debian.org. So far, all I obtained is that the team isn't on your list of teams requiring investigation. As you seem to be pretty busy and I don't feel comfortable seeing the issue persist much longer, I'm thinking about resuming the investigation myself. I suppose at this point this will mean pretty quickly that the results will be published. I thank you for your time so far. Unless I hear from you shortly, I should go on, but please don't take this as a depreciation of your help. Hi, Apologies for not getting back to you sooner. The BTS team *is* on my list of teams that I'm talking to, but I have to tell you that it's quite a way down in priority terms. I know you've had problems personally, but there are much worse problems project-wide that need dealing with first. All right. I have not seen any development with the team since we started discussing. Note that I am currently much less active in the project, being prevented from doing bug triaging, so if you can conclude the verification of the BTS team without any more discussion with me, don't forget to let me know when you're done. Take care, Filipus Hi Steve, it's been over a year since we started discussing this issue and I haven't had any news. Was there progress with owner? If not, could you give me, and perhaps the project, an update on your teams survey? For my part, I just realized that I am still banned from cont...@bugs.debian.org. I saw Don Armstrong send a Bits o' Bugs from the BTS in August 2009, but nothing reassuring. This issue has been lasting for too long already and I really want to see progress soon. Filipus -- Filipus Klutiero http://www.philippecloutier.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5265f107.2050...@gmail.com
Re: Help bringing bugs.debian.org / debbugs back on track (Re: bits from the DPL -- September 2013)
On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Jonathan Dowland wrote: a debate. There is no debate here, just a bad suggestion from someone who has been annoying Debian for years and is banned from the BTS control bot due to this. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caktje6eqpbmqbny2f2iblr0fsmsbqzrgq09j4egtwmjxqar...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Help bringing bugs.debian.org / debbugs back on track (Re: bits from the DPL -- September 2013)
On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 09:38:31AM +0800, Paul Wise wrote: Please don't switch bugs.debian.org away from debbugs. I don't want to have to leave the Debian project but some misguided folks doing that would be one of the triggers for that. Please don't threaten/ransom your labour to push one or another side of a debate. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131016094024.ga11...@bryant.redmars.org
Re: Help bringing bugs.debian.org / debbugs back on track (Re: bits from the DPL -- September 2013)
On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 08:51:15PM -0400, Filipus Klutiero wrote: Thanks for bringing this up, our ITS definitely needs love. I investigated the ITS team in 2010 and found it was already broken (although one member disagreed with that assessment, qualifying the team's status as fine). The most urgent issue must be fixing the administration of bugs.debian.org, but development should also be a priority. To set the record straight for anybody fortunate enough to not have any background here: Filipus / Philippe / chealer (to pick some of his names) has been a thorn in the side of the BTS admins for several years. My own experience from talking with him and the BTS folks is that he's very difficult to deal with. His broken comment above undoubtedly refers to his experiences when he was banned from using a lot of the BTS features for abuse. As such, if there is anybody whose opinions should be ignored more about how our bug tracker should be run and developed, I would struggle to identify such a person. Thank you for reading. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com I can't ever sleep on planes ... call it irrational if you like, but I'm afraid I'll miss my stop -- Vivek Dasmohapatra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131016095443.gx14...@einval.com
Help bringing bugs.debian.org / debbugs back on track (Re: bits from the DPL -- September 2013)
Hi Lucas, On 2013-10-09 01:58, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: Hi, Here is my monthly report for September 2013 (+ the beginning of October). Let's also use this opportunity to call for help on two key parts of our infrastructure. [...] Call for help: debbugs developers = debbugs is the piece of software behind the Debian Bugs Tracking System (BTS). It is also used by the GNU project[1]. Despite often being perceived as old-style, it features several unique features, such as the tracking of the status of bugs in each version and branch of a package (example: [2]), or the ability to perform all interactions via email, making it very easy to work offline or in poorly-connected environments. Debbugs is written in Perl, its source is available from [3], there is a testing harness available, and lists of known bugs are available from http://bugs.debian.org/bugs.debian.org (Debian instance of debbugs) and http://bugs.debian.org/debbugs (debbugs itself). Direct questions to the debian-debbugs@ mailing list[4]. Thanks for bringing this up, our ITS definitely needs love. I investigated the ITS team in 2010 and found it was already broken (although one member disagreed with that assessment, qualifying the team's status as fine). The most urgent issue must be fixing the administration of bugs.debian.org, but development should also be a priority. However, I am not convinced that development of bugs.debian.org should go through Debbugs development. Unfortunately, I am not an ITS-s expert, and I can't recommend a particular engine. There are many free ITS engines, some of which are worst, but in general, as an engine user, I do not like Debbugs compared to most other engines. Debbugs's technology doesn't look great, but I'm entirely unaware of the internals. My skepticism on its future really comes from the current number of users and developers, and most importantly its advancement compared to alternatives. I can only agree that the ITS needs help and that Debbugs can use development, but I'm not convinced that's an optimal use of our currently nearly inexistent ITS manpower (see https://lists.debian.org/stats/debian-debbugs.png ). Any manpower we can find should be used as efficiently as possible, and if we won't have enough to keep a custom ITS going, we should consider migrating to a COTS system. A one-time effort like this may be suitable for student projects. That being said, we also should not underestimate the efforts needed for a proper migration: implementing missing features in the selected system, adapting our ITS-based tools to it as well as migrating the data. As you write, Debbugs has a few things which most others don't. As far as I know, the suitability of Debbugs hasn't been reevaluated recently... if it ever was. So I simply suggest people willing to get involved in the ITS to have perennity in mind before investing in Debbugs. [...] - debbugs submissions via http (C: ? ask asheesh) I imagine this won't be news, but this is tracked in #590269. Interesting project by the way (although I miss that less since I moved to reportbug-ng). -- Filipus Klutiero http://www.philippecloutier.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/525de303.2020...@gmail.com
Re: Help bringing bugs.debian.org / debbugs back on track (Re: bits from the DPL -- September 2013)
On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 8:51 AM, Filipus Klutiero wrote: However, I am not convinced that development of bugs.debian.org should go through Debbugs development. Unfortunately, I am not an ITS-s expert, and I can't recommend a particular engine. There are many free ITS engines, some of which are worst, but in general, as an engine user, I do not like Debbugs compared to most other engines. Debbugs's technology doesn't look great, but I'm entirely unaware of the internals. My skepticism on its future really comes from the current number of users and developers, and most importantly its advancement compared to alternatives. I can only agree that the ITS needs help and that Debbugs can use development, but I'm not convinced that's an optimal use of our currently nearly inexistent ITS manpower (see https://lists.debian.org/stats/debian-debbugs.png ). Please don't switch bugs.debian.org away from debbugs. I don't want to have to leave the Debian project but some misguided folks doing that would be one of the triggers for that. None of the other bug tracking systems have anywhere near the amount of features or usability that debbugs has. While debbugs could definitely use more work on it, the current state is acceptable and definitely not a problem for Debian. I only wish more upstream projects and hosting sites used debbugs, then I might actually enjoy filing bugs upstream. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caktje6gvrm2au8dyqn+-8xm88-chbswjxby40e22fy_cnxw...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Help bringing bugs.debian.org / debbugs back on track (Re: bits from the DPL -- September 2013)
Paul Wise p...@debian.org writes: Please don't switch bugs.debian.org away from debbugs. I don't want to have to leave the Debian project but some misguided folks doing that would be one of the triggers for that. None of the other bug tracking systems have anywhere near the amount of features or usability that debbugs has. While debbugs could definitely use more work on it, the current state is acceptable and definitely not a problem for Debian. I only wish more upstream projects and hosting sites used debbugs, then I might actually enjoy filing bugs upstream. +1 to every word of this. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87siw22drn@windlord.stanford.edu
