Re: New website layout / design contest?

2006-09-06 Thread Christoph Haas 
On Wednesday 06 September 2006 12:49, Chris Waters wrote:
> But people who aren't running Debian aren't (by definition) our users,
> so trying to attract them with shiny slow graphics and distracting
> color changes and annoying animations and excessive clutter and other
> hallmarks of "modern" websites is not our priority.  Maybe you want we
> should use Flash everywhere too?

There is some difference between the current appearance of debian.org and 
delusions from mabushi "web designers" called "web 2.0".

Don't claim that the appearance isn't important. A lot of people will prove 
you wrong. Just because you (and I) like the technical aspects of Debian 
better it does not mean that users don't care about appearance. My 
mother-in-law uses Debian and she has never in her life heard of "dpkg" 
or "apt". And she prefers one instant messenger over the other just by the 
looks of the GUI.

Our cantina is a good proof that ugly things can taste good. You are 
invited for a sample. :)

> And saying that "our priorities are our users" doesn't mean that we
> should try to dazzle our users with glitzy graphics and "cool"
> interfaces when they want help and information.

The reason CSS was invented was to seperate design and content. We are not 
critisizing the content. The content is great.

> Anyway, I'm not opposed to the idea of a website redesign.  But when
> people say, "how can we make it look better" rather than "how can we
> make it work better", that worries me.

For me design goes with functionality. And now I quit babbling before I 
start talking like a marketing dork.

Cheers
 Christoph


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Re: New website layout / design contest?

2006-09-06 Thread Martin Schulze 
Christoph Haas wrote:
> On Tuesday 05 September 2006 04:16, Matej Cepl wrote:
> > Paul Belanger wrote:
> > > After all, the point of any distribution is to sell it to a user.
> >
> > It is not. For example, Debian Developers usually don't care how many
> > users is Debian sold to. And that is a good thing.
> 
> If you think of the monetary aspect: okay. But if you think of "selling 
> something to someone" in the meaning of promotion then I'll definitely 
> second that debian.org's web site is not very appealing. It does its job 
> and is functional - but it is not very nifty. And by the way I *do* care 
> how many users use my packages or Debian altogether. It's nicer to 
> maintain something that 1000 people use than something that is just 
> rotting in the archives.
> 
> I remotely remember that the last time this topic came up the thread was 
> closed with a "this is not a high priority - we are dedicated to deliver 
> the best operating system, not the best web site" statement. No doubt 
> about that. But people like something nice for their eyes, too. When I 
> started playing around with Debian I was surprised about debian.org. So 
> many people used Debian privately and professionally but the web site just 
> didn't reflect that. Many people judge a product (or in our case: an 
> operating system) by the first look. And as Debian is technically well 
> done I believe it deserves a good public appearance, too.
> 
> I'm not a member of the web team but I could imagine contributing to it 
> even though I'm not the greatest web programmer of all times. Perhaps a 
> contest may be nice. (But if the result looks as ugly as Ubuntu's web site 
> I'm scared already. ;)  ) Whatever it turns out I'm pretty sure that it's 
> time for a redesign. Perhaps not pre-Etch though.

Well, you can always checkout the current website, improve it and
apply patches.  On  is described
how it works.

I'm interested in patches and proposals.

Regards,

Joey

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Re: New website layout / design contest?

2006-09-06 Thread Paul Belanger 
Ha! I wasn't saying to add all kinds of animation, flash and all that, flash is the last thing I'd ever suggest. Functionality is of course key. I don't see the issue with having a contest...just make an announcement on the debian frontpage and perhaps use the debian wiki as an area where people can provide a link to their layout. After all is said and done let the debian developers pick the layout they like best or even put it to a vote in the debian community? 
On 9/6/06, Chris Waters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Tue, Sep 05, 2006 at 07:23:05AM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote:> Our priorities are our users and free software.But people who aren't running Debian aren't (by definition) our users,so trying to attract them with shiny slow graphics and distracting
color changes and annoying animations and excessive clutter and otherhallmarks of "modern" websites is not our priority.  Maybe you want weshould use Flash everywhere too?And saying that "our priorities are our users" doesn't mean that we
should try to dazzle our users with glitzy graphics and "cool"interfaces when they want help and information.  It means we shouldprovide them help and information when they want help and information.
Anyway, I'm not opposed to the idea of a website redesign.  But whenpeople say, "how can we make it look better" rather than "how can wemake it work better", that worries me.--
Chris Waters   |  Pneumonoultra-osis is too long[EMAIL PROTECTED]   |  microscopicsilico-to fit into a singleor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 |  volcaniconi-  standalone haiku--To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact 
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Re: New website layout / design contest?

2006-09-06 Thread Chris Waters 
On Tue, Sep 05, 2006 at 07:23:05AM +0200, Christian Perrier wrote:

> Our priorities are our users and free software.

But people who aren't running Debian aren't (by definition) our users,
so trying to attract them with shiny slow graphics and distracting
color changes and annoying animations and excessive clutter and other
hallmarks of "modern" websites is not our priority.  Maybe you want we
should use Flash everywhere too?

And saying that "our priorities are our users" doesn't mean that we
should try to dazzle our users with glitzy graphics and "cool"
interfaces when they want help and information.  It means we should
provide them help and information when they want help and information.

Anyway, I'm not opposed to the idea of a website redesign.  But when
people say, "how can we make it look better" rather than "how can we
make it work better", that worries me.

-- 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]   |  microscopicsilico-to fit into a single
or [EMAIL PROTECTED] |  volcaniconi-  standalone haiku


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Re: New website layout / design contest?

2006-09-05 Thread Christian Perrier 
> It is not. For example, Debian Developers usually don't care how many users
> is Debian sold to. And that is a good thing.


Our priorities are our users and free software.

So, sorry, but I *do* care about how much users use Debian. And I have
the somewhat strange feeling that I'm not alone among DD's.

If getting a somewhat appealing web site is a way to do it besides
creating the best OS ever, we should try to do it.




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Re: New website layout / design contest?

2006-09-05 Thread Adrian von Bidder 
Paul Belanger wrote:
 [ Debian web site is not really good ]

On Tuesday 05 September 2006 14:23, George Danchev wrote:
> Seems like this website issue has already been addressed:
> (note: url is intentionally wrapped)
> http://ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/debian-meetings/2006/debconf6/theora-small/
> 2006-05-20/hacklab/www_debian_org_redesign-Agnieszka_Czajkowska.ogg

Is being addressed is probably the better word...

Hmm.  A very very quick look at the debian-www archive seems to indicate 
that Agnieszka Czajkowska did not post to this list since Debconf.  Just 
wondering.

Paul: if you're interested in helping out, I propose you talk with Agnieszka 
Czajkowska - two people working on one project is better than two people 
independently working on the problem...

(I don't know her email, though I'm sure somebody must have got it at 
debconf.  Using google, I'd guess that http://www.czajkowska.pl/ is 
probably not her, but agnieszka () imagegalaxy ! de might help you.)

cheers
-- vbi

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Re: New website layout / design contest?

2006-09-05 Thread Henrique de Moraes Holschuh 
On Tue, 05 Sep 2006, Paul Belanger wrote:
> I'm sure not all debian developers feel that way, if that is the case, why
> release a quality product at all? I'm not a developer but I certainly care

Because some of us care for quality no matter how many users are there.

Just remember that the attitude that gave our website that minimal look is
everywhere in Debian.  That said, I have nothing against someone who cares
about it doing a website face-lift either, as long as it doesn't make the
website any worse.

> heard of it? The project homepage gives a good first impression. Think about
> it, if you were looking to hire someone for a job and knew nothing about the
> people you were interviewingone guy was dressed in a nice suit another
> in bummy clothes what would your first impression be? I don't see any

That the guy with a nice suit doesn't know what he is getting into, and when
I need him to crawl under the racks at 03:00 in the morning because stuff
blew up, I might not be able to count on him.

After all, I want engagement, high motivation, good team work skills, and
technical excelence, not looks.  I am not hiring models or direct sales
people.  I need IT warriors.

That's why you interview people very carefully, the guy could have shown up
in a suit because he was under the wrong assumption that it would be bad for
his chances if he showed up in casual clothing (but looking reasonably well
kept).

This goes for users looking for a distro too.  If he is so moved by
appearances, then Debian is probably the *wrong* distro for him.  And our
website may not be in a suit, but it is well kept enough to let people know
Debian ain't just another mess of packages.

-- 
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  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: New website layout / design contest?

2006-09-05 Thread Paul Belanger 
On 9/4/06, Matej Cepl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Paul Belanger wrote:> After all, the point of any distribution is to sell it to a user.It is not. For example, Debian Developers usually don't care how many usersis Debian sold to. And that is a good thing.
Matěj--23 Marion St. #3, Cambridge, MA 02141, (617) 876-1259http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/blog/, Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB  25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84ACA fool-proof method for sculpting an elephant: first, get a hugeblock of marble; then you chip away everything that doesn't looklike an elephant.
I'm sure not all debian developers feel that way, if that is the case, why release a quality product at all? I'm not a developer but I certainly care how many users debian has, the more the better imo. A strong userbase adds potential developers, bug testers, etc..use your imagination...which in turn adds to the overall quality of the project (usually). I guess something like a homepage may seem trivial to some but I just don't see it that way. Long time users know the strengths of debian but what about those who have never heard of it? The project homepage gives a good first impression. Think about it, if you were looking to hire someone for a job and knew nothing about the people you were interviewingone guy was dressed in a nice suit another in bummy clothes what would your first impression be? I don't see any downside in giving the homepage a facelift, I mean seriously what harm could it do?

Re: New website layout / design contest?

2006-09-05 Thread George Danchev 
On Tuesday 05 September 2006 13:09, Christoph Haas wrote:
> On Tuesday 05 September 2006 04:16, Matej Cepl wrote:
> > Paul Belanger wrote:
> > > After all, the point of any distribution is to sell it to a user.
> >
> > It is not. For example, Debian Developers usually don't care how many
> > users is Debian sold to. And that is a good thing.
>
> If you think of the monetary aspect: okay. But if you think of "selling
> something to someone" in the meaning of promotion then I'll definitely
> second that debian.org's web site is not very appealing. It does its job
> and is functional - but it is not very nifty. And by the way I *do* care
> how many users use my packages or Debian altogether. It's nicer to
> maintain something that 1000 people use than something that is just
> rotting in the archives.

Seems like this website issue has already been addressed:
(note: url is intentionally wrapped)
http://ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/debian-meetings/2006/debconf6/theora-small/
2006-05-20/hacklab/www_debian_org_redesign-Agnieszka_Czajkowska.ogg

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Re: New website layout / design contest?

2006-09-05 Thread Christoph Haas 
On Tuesday 05 September 2006 04:16, Matej Cepl wrote:
> Paul Belanger wrote:
> > After all, the point of any distribution is to sell it to a user.
>
> It is not. For example, Debian Developers usually don't care how many
> users is Debian sold to. And that is a good thing.

If you think of the monetary aspect: okay. But if you think of "selling 
something to someone" in the meaning of promotion then I'll definitely 
second that debian.org's web site is not very appealing. It does its job 
and is functional - but it is not very nifty. And by the way I *do* care 
how many users use my packages or Debian altogether. It's nicer to 
maintain something that 1000 people use than something that is just 
rotting in the archives.

I remotely remember that the last time this topic came up the thread was 
closed with a "this is not a high priority - we are dedicated to deliver 
the best operating system, not the best web site" statement. No doubt 
about that. But people like something nice for their eyes, too. When I 
started playing around with Debian I was surprised about debian.org. So 
many people used Debian privately and professionally but the web site just 
didn't reflect that. Many people judge a product (or in our case: an 
operating system) by the first look. And as Debian is technically well 
done I believe it deserves a good public appearance, too.

I'm not a member of the web team but I could imagine contributing to it 
even though I'm not the greatest web programmer of all times. Perhaps a 
contest may be nice. (But if the result looks as ugly as Ubuntu's web site 
I'm scared already. ;)  ) Whatever it turns out I'm pretty sure that it's 
time for a redesign. Perhaps not pre-Etch though.

I'd be interested in voices of the web team, too.

Cheers
 Christoph
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Re: New website layout / design contest?

2006-09-05 Thread Stefano Zacchiroli 
On Mon, Sep 04, 2006 at 10:16:59PM -0400, Matej Cepl wrote:
> > After all, the point of any distribution is to sell it to a user.
> It is not. For example, Debian Developers usually don't care how many users
> is Debian sold to. And that is a good thing.

Still, the remainder of the mail had a point, and I don't see anything
wrong with having a more appealing homepage. The informative content is
not all that matter in a web site.

I like the idea of the contest.

Still, a more appropriate place for discussing that would be debian-www.
People there is surely more knowledgeable on the issues involved (what
the contest should be about for example: it can be enough to do it just
for a CSS or it may require more deep changes) than we---or at least
me---are.

Cheers.

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Re: New website layout / design contest?

2006-09-04 Thread Matej Cepl 
Paul Belanger wrote:
> After all, the point of any distribution is to sell it to a user.

It is not. For example, Debian Developers usually don't care how many users
is Debian sold to. And that is a good thing.

Matěj

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New website layout / design contest?

2006-09-04 Thread Paul Belanger 
I propose the debian project hold a contest for a new website layout and/or design. After all, the point of any distribution is to sell it to a user. The homepage represents a piece of the project. This may sound a bit harsh but the debian homepage isn't exactly appealing. Maybe at some point (10 years ago) it was, but not by today's standards. VLC (
videolan.org) recently held a contest for a new design and it was quite successful as you can now see the new layout, I believe FreeBSD also held one a while back though I may be mistaken. Some "official" forums would also be nice. Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing some opinions on this. Cheers.