Re: No general political content on Planet
* Russ Allbery: Meeting one's fellow developer in person also (at least for me) helped a lot in turning random political content I strongly disagree with from something that pissed me off into something that just makes me roll my eyes and remember the good conversation we had. :) This certainly does not work for everyone. I can't imagine that it would work for me for certain policy positions---various kinds of hate speech come to my mind. Anyway, in any case, this could only restore respect for the poster (whose speech I don't want to suppress, even my moral relativism goes that far). The fact that Debian supports such speech by its dissemination would not be changed by that. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87aalcc9sp@mid.deneb.enyo.de
Re: No general political content on Planet
Ben Finney dijo [Fri, Nov 05, 2010 at 11:06:26AM +1100]: (...) Hopefully the suggestion to split non-Debian topics out to a separate feed (or, equivalently, to provide a Debian-topics-only feed which is the only one provided on Planet Debian) will be followed more often. Many of us don't bother setting tags for each of our blog postings. If it were to become a policy to have it set for a Planet Debian On-Topic subplanet, we probably would... although it's far from automatic. And many of the interesting messages are not strictly Debian-related, even if they are technical. Meeting one's fellow developer in person also (at least for me) helped a lot in turning random political content I strongly disagree with from something that pissed me off into something that just makes me roll my eyes and remember the good conversation we had. :) Agreed. Others have expressed the position that reading occasional non-Debian posts in the Planet Debian flow helps to relate to other members as people with lives outside Debian; that seems something of value that we should be careful not to sacrifice cheaply. Yes, please subscribe me to that group. For me, the planet is a window to the lives of the people that form up this social group. We share a technical affinity, so we tend to write technical topics, but we write about our political views - As much as we write about our hobbies, our families, our lives. For me, Debian is as much a technical project as a social one. And that's the reason I enjoy the planet. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2010171310.gf29...@gwolf.org
Re: No general political content on Planet
On 2010-11-11, Gunnar Wolf gw...@gwolf.org wrote: Yes, please subscribe me to that group. For me, the planet is a window to the lives of the people that form up this social group. We share a technical affinity, so we tend to write technical topics, but we write about our political views - As much as we write about our hobbies, our families, our lives. full ack /sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/slrnidojc7.rvp.nos...@sshway.ssh.pusling.com
Re: No general political content on Planet
I can't support a rule like no political content on Planet Debian, because it's a horrily vague standard that could probably be used by anyone to agitate against any content they didn't like. Now, if Planet Debian were not running on Planet, but instead on ikiwiki, it would be easy for anyone to set up feeds excluding certian authors as has been done on Planet Debian upstream (http://updo.debian.net/) with eg, its rms-free feed. (Almost all of rms's posts are political btw, although not near the corner of the spectrum that triggered this thread.) That might be a better technical fix than others suggested in this thread, or not. Anyway, it seems to me that, based on this thread, certian posts on Planet Debian have had a trollish nature. After all, they've gotten us calling each other names like condescending and parochial. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: No general political content on Planet
On 11/04/2010 07:06 PM, Ben Finney wrote: Agreed. Others have expressed the position that reading occasional non-Debian posts in the Planet Debian flow helps to relate to other members as people with lives outside Debian; that seems something of value that we should be careful not to sacrifice cheaply. I think it is *the* singular benefit of Planet Debian. I actually find Planet somewhat annoying as a platform for discussion about Debian business; these discussions take place in comment threads on different blog posts all over the place, which isn't as helpful as on a mailing list. But I am not in favor of restrictions banning non-Debian-related (or, for that matter, Debian-related) material. -- John -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cd45cb2.6020...@complete.org
Re: No general political content on Planet
Joey Hess jo...@debian.org writes: Anyway, it seems to me that, based on this thread, certian posts on Planet Debian have had a trollish nature. After all, they've gotten us calling each other names like condescending and parochial. Russ didn't call me condescending; he described part of my message that way. I didn't call Russ parochial; I described part of his message that way. To my knowledge, neither of us took it as a description of our person or calling each other names. I yearn for the day when describing someone's words is not taken as describing the person. But I suppose we're not there yet. -- \ “Some forms of reality are so horrible we refuse to face them, | `\ unless we are trapped into it by comedy. To label any subject | _o__)unsuitable for comedy is to admit defeat.” —Peter Sellers | Ben Finney pgptiZXf0agTK.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: No general political content on Planet
On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 07:28:47PM +0100, Florian Weimer wrote: Could we please make and enforce a rule that no general political content is published on planet.debian.org and similar sites? I happen to like the sometimes strange mix of posts on planet! Some directly Debian related, some technical and then some, well, other. To me, it gives a reminder Debian is not just a thousand or so developers, but actual people with, yes, different political views. I don't think we want to deal with the resulting toxic debates. YES to a variety of topics, including political, on planet. NO to toxic debates; anywhere. I can't even find what would of caused such a problem on planet now. - Craig -- Craig Small GnuPG:1C1B D893 1418 2AF4 45EE 95CB C76C E5AC 12CA DFA5 http://www.enc.com.au/ csmall at : enc.com.au http://www.debian.org/ Debian GNU/Linux, software should be Free -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101105212721.gd18...@enc.com.au
Re: No general political content on Planet
On Thu, 04 Nov 2010, Florian Weimer wrote: Could we please make and enforce a rule that no general political content is published on planet.debian.org and similar sites? Occasional political commentary is perfectly ok; if someone is going to be putting lots of it in their blog that wouldn't be of interest, they should be asked to consider separating feeds so only posts which would be of general interest to DDs is posted. I don't think we want to deal with the resulting toxic debates. Considering how rarely people mention politics now, it's not worth worrying about. Don Armstrong -- Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte non quand il n'y a plus rien a ajouter, mais quand il n'y a plus rien a retrancher. (Perfection is apparently not achieved when nothing more can be added, but when nothing else can be removed.) -- Antoine de Saint-Exupe'ry, Terres des Hommes http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101104201519.gs16...@teltox.donarmstrong.com
Re: No general political content on Planet
Florian Weimer f...@deneb.enyo.de writes: Could we please make and enforce a rule that no general political content is published on planet.debian.org and similar sites? I understand that people have different political views, and I generally appreciate that. We have developers from countries who are not on the most amicable terms, and countries which are politically deeply devided. I don't think we want to deal with the resulting toxic debates. The little minus next to someone's name seems to deal with that reasonably well if one doesn't feel up to ignoring it. Meeting one's fellow developer in person also (at least for me) helped a lot in turning random political content I strongly disagree with from something that pissed me off into something that just makes me roll my eyes and remember the good conversation we had. :) -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87iq0cg5uo@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: No general political content on Planet
Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes: The little minus next to someone's name seems to deal with that reasonably well if one doesn't feel up to ignoring it. I get no “little minus” next to anyone's name on the Planet Debian syndication feed. Are you perhaps conflating the interface-independent information content of Planet Debian with a single interface to that information? Hopefully the suggestion to split non-Debian topics out to a separate feed (or, equivalently, to provide a Debian-topics-only feed which is the only one provided on Planet Debian) will be followed more often. Meeting one's fellow developer in person also (at least for me) helped a lot in turning random political content I strongly disagree with from something that pissed me off into something that just makes me roll my eyes and remember the good conversation we had. :) Agreed. Others have expressed the position that reading occasional non-Debian posts in the Planet Debian flow helps to relate to other members as people with lives outside Debian; that seems something of value that we should be careful not to sacrifice cheaply. -- \ “Books and opinions, no matter from whom they came, if they are | `\ in opposition to human rights, are nothing but dead letters.” | _o__) —Ernestine Rose | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87d3qkfxbx@benfinney.id.au
Re: No general political content on Planet
Ben Finney ben+deb...@benfinney.id.au writes: Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes: The little minus next to someone's name seems to deal with that reasonably well if one doesn't feel up to ignoring it. I get no “little minus” next to anyone's name on the Planet Debian syndication feed. Are you perhaps conflating the interface-independent information content of Planet Debian with a single interface to that information? Yes, that's what I was referring to. FWIW, this bit came across as very condescending and immediately made me angry and defensive, although I got over it. The correction also seems somewhat unnecessary, since you seem to have understood what I meant. I was pointing out an interface feature that in the past some readers haven't known about, for those people who (like I do) go directly to the web site, and this sort of aggressive-sounding correction mostly just makes me less likely to post information I think could be helpful in the future. If you had instead phrased your response more along the lines of that works if you're reading directly from the web site, but if you're reading via an RSS feed it isn't as simple, it would have removed all of the negative tone from your message and I would have even been grateful for the supplementary information. Anyway, presumably decent feed reader software either has or could have added to it a similar feature to suppress particular posts from the collective feed by various criteria. The authorship information is in the feed for a feed reader to do something with. Hopefully the suggestion to split non-Debian topics out to a separate feed (or, equivalently, to provide a Debian-topics-only feed which is the only one provided on Planet Debian) will be followed more often. Eh. We've had that argument several times, and it's quite clear that many Planet Debian readers do *not* want people to do that, so I think that hopefully can't really be anything other than an expression of personal preference. Others have different preferences (myself included). As you say, actually: Agreed. Others have expressed the position that reading occasional non-Debian posts in the Planet Debian flow helps to relate to other members as people with lives outside Debian; that seems something of value that we should be careful not to sacrifice cheaply. Exactly. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87r5f0aaiy@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: No general political content on Planet
Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes: Ben Finney ben+deb...@benfinney.id.au writes: Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes: The little minus next to someone's name seems to deal with that reasonably well if one doesn't feel up to ignoring it. I get no “little minus” next to anyone's name on the Planet Debian syndication feed. Are you perhaps conflating the interface-independent information content of Planet Debian with a single interface to that information? Yes, that's what I was referring to. FWIW, this bit came across as very condescending and immediately made me angry and defensive, although I got over it. The correction also seems somewhat unnecessary, since you seem to have understood what I meant. I was pointing out an interface feature that in the past some readers haven't known about, for those people who (like I do) go directly to the web site, and this sort of aggressive-sounding correction mostly just makes me less likely to post information I think could be helpful in the future. Not my intention. I found your assumption that all Planet Debian readers would see a little minus to be quite parochial, so I wanted to find out whether that was the case. I didn't take offense, and didn't intend to cause it. If you had instead phrased your response more along the lines of that works if you're reading directly from the web site I didn't know that to be the case, and wasn't motivated to experiment. Anyway, presumably decent feed reader software either has or could have added to it a similar feature to suppress particular posts from the collective feed by various criteria. The authorship information is in the feed for a feed reader to do something with. That seems an unreasonable place for the burden. It seems similar to claims that people who don't like off-topic posts can just delete them. True, but irrelevant to the point that off-topic posts are being made. Again, though, I'll note that I don't consider all off-topic traffic necessarily bad; merely that “configure your client better” is a poor response. -- \ “If you always want the latest and greatest, then you have to | `\ buy a new iPod at least once a year.” —Steve Jobs, MSNBC | _o__) interview 2006-05-25 | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/874obwftox@benfinney.id.au
Re: No general political content on Planet
Ben Finney ben+deb...@benfinney.id.au writes: Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes: Anyway, presumably decent feed reader software either has or could have added to it a similar feature to suppress particular posts from the collective feed by various criteria. The authorship information is in the feed for a feed reader to do something with. That seems an unreasonable place for the burden. It seems similar to claims that people who don't like off-topic posts can just delete them. True, but irrelevant to the point that off-topic posts are being made. It's not at all clear that they're off-topic posts. That's the point. Many Planet Debian readers who have commented here in the past have said they consider anything a person affiliated with Debian wants to blog about to *be* the topic of Planet Debian. Again, though, I'll note that I don't consider all off-topic traffic necessarily bad; merely that “configure your client better” is a poor response. When there is controversy over exactly what is on-topic, it's about the only response that will actually work. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87r5f036bt@windlord.stanford.edu
