Re: Opera in your repos
On Sun, Aug 09, 2009 at 05:39:43PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: On Sat, Aug 08, 2009 at 01:59:55PM +0200, Peter Palfrader wrote: We need the redistribution bit, I don't think we need it to be allowed to be used by all users. Non-commercial is fine in non-free, or at least was, last time I checked. I wouldn't be surprised if our requirements have increased even in that regard in recent years. At least nowadays I mostly expect stuff that has weird licenses about modification and following redistribution in non-free. I hardly expect stuff that one is not even allowed to use. But maybe that's just me. :) I think that's just you. There has been no decision by the project to change the license requirements for non-free, and if the ftp masters have decided this, they haven't disclosed it anywhere appropriate. Indeed, last time I checked, the requirement was that Debian is allowed to redistribute the stuff, which kind of makes sense ;) -- Intersec http://www.intersec.com Pierre Habouzit pierre.habou...@intersec.com Tél : +33 (0)1 5570 3346 Mob : +33 (0)6 1636 8131 Fax : +33 (0)1 5570 3332 37 Rue Pierre Lhomme 92400 Courbevoie signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Opera in your repos
I think that's just you. There has been no decision by the project to change the license requirements for non-free, and if the ftp masters have decided this, they haven't disclosed it anywhere appropriate. Indeed, last time I checked, the requirement was that Debian is allowed to redistribute the stuff, which kind of makes sense ;) Its still that. Allowing people to use it is a nice thing, but strictly speaking its not needed for it. -- bye, Joerg pasc man pasc the AMD64 camp is not helped by the list of people supporting it pasc when nerode is on your side, you know you're doing something wrong -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Opera in your repos
On Mon Aug 10 21:08, Joerg Jaspert wrote: I think that's just you. There has been no decision by the project to change the license requirements for non-free, and if the ftp masters have decided this, they haven't disclosed it anywhere appropriate. Indeed, last time I checked, the requirement was that Debian is allowed to redistribute the stuff, which kind of makes sense ;) Its still that. Allowing people to use it is a nice thing, but strictly speaking its not needed for it. True, but *I*'d rather not upload it if people using Debian can't use it. Matt -- Matthew Johnson signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Opera in your repos
On Sat, Aug 08, 2009 at 01:59:55PM +0200, Peter Palfrader wrote: We need the redistribution bit, I don't think we need it to be allowed to be used by all users. Non-commercial is fine in non-free, or at least was, last time I checked. I wouldn't be surprised if our requirements have increased even in that regard in recent years. At least nowadays I mostly expect stuff that has weird licenses about modification and following redistribution in non-free. I hardly expect stuff that one is not even allowed to use. But maybe that's just me. :) I think that's just you. There has been no decision by the project to change the license requirements for non-free, and if the ftp masters have decided this, they haven't disclosed it anywhere appropriate. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Opera in your repos
]] Matthew Johnson | We would need a licence which allowed it to be redistributed by Debian | and used by all of our users. The reference for this is Debian Policy | 2.2.3 and 2.3: We need the redistribution bit, I don't think we need it to be allowed to be used by all users. Non-commercial is fine in non-free, or at least was, last time I checked. -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Opera in your repos
On Sat, 08 Aug 2009, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: ]] Matthew Johnson | We would need a licence which allowed it to be redistributed by Debian | and used by all of our users. The reference for this is Debian Policy | 2.2.3 and 2.3: We need the redistribution bit, I don't think we need it to be allowed to be used by all users. Non-commercial is fine in non-free, or at least was, last time I checked. I wouldn't be surprised if our requirements have increased even in that regard in recent years. At least nowadays I mostly expect stuff that has weird licenses about modification and following redistribution in non-free. I hardly expect stuff that one is not even allowed to use. But maybe that's just me. :) Cheers, -- | .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** Peter Palfrader | : :' : The universal http://www.palfrader.org/ | `. `' Operating System | `-http://www.debian.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Opera in your repos
On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 11:44:00PM +0200, Ilya Shpan'kov wrote: I will inform our lawers about your opinion. Really, it have a very big sense. I can say, that here in Opera we had discussions about being Free Software every year. Unfortunately, we have a lot of agreements with other companies which use Opera at their devices - by this case we still can't to be a real free Software. If you mean you are using 3rd party code which is licensed to you under proprietary terms - there is not much you can do I guess. If you mean you and your partners rely on commercial exploitation of (some of) the features of Opera - there is always the possibility of dual-licensing the code to GPL/Proprietary together with forced copyright assignments (so Opera retains control of the general direction and can relicense/exploit the code). This way, no other company can exploit the code in a proprietary way (or has to disclose their modifications) while Opera still can (as the code owner through the alternative proprietary license). Whether you attract a lot of outside developers this way (due to truely free alternatives like Webkit and Gecko) is a different matter, of course. regards, Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Opera in your repos
(Beware sarcasm tags might be missing.) Ana Guerrero a...@debian.org (05/08/2009): Even in the case you release the opera code with a license that allow distributing opera in non-free, there is not much point on distributing it when we already have _totally free_ browsers. There is: Linux is about Choice! Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Opera in your repos
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Ilya Shpan'kov wrote: Hi, I work in Opera Software - yes, we make a proprietary browser ;) Last 7 years I use GNU/Linux and know that, for example, in Russia the Opera browser is very popular in GNU/Linux Community. Unfortunately, not always I can see this browser in the non-free repos. Well, there is a question: whether Opera is included to your distro and if not - how we can fix this problem? We are ready for any discussions, technical help or agreement, if necessary. As explained by Ana, Debian is about making a free operating system, so we usually try to remove software from non-free when we have free alternatives, not add more. Anyway, I'll give you a more technical answer. I see at least two problems in putting Opera in non-free: First one, the End User License Agreement does not say anything about redistribution. It is allowed at all? Under which conditions? Do those conditions last forever, or may Opera Software terminate them at their wish? Bear in mind that there are sites like snapshot.debian.net that would copy each and every upload of opera from non-free to be archived forever. If we can't do that it would probably not worth the effort. The second problem I see is the discrimination against some users. From the LICENSE text: You are entitled to use the Software on all personal computers (laptops/desktops). Use means loaded in temporary memory or permanent storage on the computer. You may not use the Software on non-PC products, devices, or embedded in any other product, including, but not limited to, mobile devices, internet appliances, set top boxes (STB), handhelds, PDAs, phones, web pads, tablets, game consoles, TVs, gaming machines, home automation systems, or any other consumer electronics devices or mobile/cable/satellite/television or closed system based service. Well, the fact is that Debian aims to run on all those devices too. Putting opera.deb in non-free would be deceptive to those users, as most people assume that if something is in non-free, then the software might be proprietary but at least use is not restricted, which would not be the case here. As Debian is about creating a free operating system, we don't have any system or procedure to force people to accept licenses before dowloading packages. With current tools, whoever bothers to package Opera for non-free would probably add a debconf question in the line of Are you using an ordinary PC (laptop/desktop) or you are using something else?. If I had to answer questions like that after installing something, I am not sure I would be glad of doing so from a Debian server. Thanks. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Opera in your repos
On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 07:10:48PM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote: (Beware sarcasm tags might be missing.) Ana Guerrero a...@debian.org (05/08/2009): Even in the case you release the opera code with a license that allow distributing opera in non-free, there is not much point on distributing it when we already have _totally free_ browsers. There is: Linux is about Choice! Like choosing not to give support to propietary stuff ? :D Ana -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Opera in your repos
Ilya Shpan'kov wrote: Thanks, Santiago! I will inform our lawers about your opinion. Really, it have a very big sense. I can say, that here in Opera we had discussions about being Free Software every year. Unfortunately, we have a lot of agreements with other companies which use Opera at their devices - by this case we still can't to be a real free Software. It would be *really* amazing if Opera would become free software. The browser is really awesome, but as it is not open-source software, I rarely use it. -- Bernd Zeimetz Debian GNU/Linux Developer GPG Fingerprints: 06C8 C9A2 EAAD E37E 5B2C BE93 067A AD04 C93B FF79 ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
