Re: Survey of new contributors -- results
On 2013-08-09 03:53, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: On 08/08/13 at 17:23 -0400, Filipus Klutiero wrote: Lucas Nussbaum wrote: [...] [...] Q1: Can you (briefly) introduce yourself? What motivated you to start contributing to Debian? What are you (trying to) contribute to in Debian? Q2: What are your reasons for starting to contribute to Debian *now*? Why didn't you start before? :) | Those two questions being quite open, it is difficult to draw any statistics | from the answers. However, if I try to draw a typical picture of the new | contributor, he/she is a long time Debian user who started contributing to | scratch an itch: package something s/he developed, depend on in its day | job, etc. Often, they don't start contributing earlier because everything | looks fine (everything they need is packaged and seems properly maintained). | However, some (a minority) of new contributors are simply willing to give | back, without any (apparent) specific interest in what they are working on. | [...] So, trying to summarize. (everything below is my personal opinion) As Debian, we usually like people who will join our teams and contribute to our usual team duties. But most new contributors are interested in maintaining a specific package (usually not yet in Debian). If they fail at this first step, they are likely to be lost for Debian. Unfortunately, we suck at sponsoring random packages. Nice loop... Could you precise the proportions here? How many respondents were interested in maintaining a specific package? And how many want to maintain a specific package which is not in Debian? As this was not asked directly, I've re-read through answers and tried to categorize new contributors. 17/37 give an indication that they were primarly motivated by contributing to a specific piece of software (something they are upstream for, rely on in their day job, etc.) 10/37 give an indication that they are primarly motivated by contributing to Debian, with no pre-defined very-specific area of contribution 10/37 give no indication in either direction Thank you very much And not just for you, but didn't we recently have an analysis of contributors collaboration in packaging, with statistics on the proportion of team-maintained vs private packages? http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/blog/?p=751 Ah, that's the one I was thinking about ;-) Not very conclusive, but we could ask more questions to verify your impressions and better quantify the possible issue if a new batch of fresh packagers is asked to answer the questionnaire again in some time. Say: Q2.1: How likely would have you been to start [packaging?/contributing to Debian?] if it wasn't for your first package(s)? [Probability Scale] Q2.2: Did you need your first package for your day job? Drafting these questions makes me realize the difference between packaging and contributing is important. Q2 assumes that packagers didn't contribute before they started packaging. When you say most contributors are interested in maintaining a specific package, are you talking about contributors in general or about packaging contributors only? If we want to see how important upstream developers are in the picture, we could ask: Q: Were you an upstream author of the software you packaged for Debian? Yes / Yes, except for dependencies / Usually / Sometimes / No I'm very curious about new packagers packaging new software. If we confirm that the packages in which new packagers get involved are new packages statistically much more often than is the case for old packagers, important questions could be asked - are healthy teams able to recruit, and is the project able to fix broken teams? We could ask any packager: Q: Before your intervention, your first package... ...had never been in Debian / ...had been removed from Debian / ...was orphaned / ...was de facto abandoned / ...was maintained Actionable items: [...] - have a more introductory documentation to BTS usage ...or just ease ITS contributions. ITS? The Issue (aka Bug) Tracking System, as Ben wrote. I'm very much of the philosophy that the best user documentation is no documentation. I never felt the need for introductory documentation when using modern issue trackers. Documentation specific to packagers for Closes and similar integration features may be warranted, but I find it worrisome that 4 out of 37 mentioned that they found the BTS quite hard. Lucas -- Filipus Klutiero http://www.philippecloutier.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/520947b7.2070...@gmail.com
Re: Survey of new contributors -- results
On 08/08/13 at 17:23 -0400, Filipus Klutiero wrote: Lucas Nussbaum wrote: Hi, Here is a report on the survey of new contributors I initiated a few weeks ago[1]. Thank you Lucas, and thanks to respondents. [...] Q1: Can you (briefly) introduce yourself? What motivated you to start contributing to Debian? What are you (trying to) contribute to in Debian? Q2: What are your reasons for starting to contribute to Debian *now*? Why didn't you start before? :) | Those two questions being quite open, it is difficult to draw any statistics | from the answers. However, if I try to draw a typical picture of the new | contributor, he/she is a long time Debian user who started contributing to | scratch an itch: package something s/he developed, depend on in its day | job, etc. Often, they don't start contributing earlier because everything | looks fine (everything they need is packaged and seems properly maintained). | However, some (a minority) of new contributors are simply willing to give | back, without any (apparent) specific interest in what they are working on. | [...] So, trying to summarize. (everything below is my personal opinion) As Debian, we usually like people who will join our teams and contribute to our usual team duties. But most new contributors are interested in maintaining a specific package (usually not yet in Debian). If they fail at this first step, they are likely to be lost for Debian. Unfortunately, we suck at sponsoring random packages. Nice loop... Could you precise the proportions here? How many respondents were interested in maintaining a specific package? And how many want to maintain a specific package which is not in Debian? As this was not asked directly, I've re-read through answers and tried to categorize new contributors. 17/37 give an indication that they were primarly motivated by contributing to a specific piece of software (something they are upstream for, rely on in their day job, etc.) 10/37 give an indication that they are primarly motivated by contributing to Debian, with no pre-defined very-specific area of contribution 10/37 give no indication in either direction And not just for you, but didn't we recently have an analysis of contributors collaboration in packaging, with statistics on the proportion of team-maintained vs private packages? http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/blog/?p=751 Actionable items: [...] - have a more introductory documentation to BTS usage ...or just ease ITS contributions. ITS? Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130809075318.ga16...@xanadu.blop.info
Re: Survey of new contributors -- results
Quoting Lucas Nussbaum (2013-08-09 09:53:18) [snip] Actionable items: [...] - have a more introductory documentation to BTS usage ...or just ease ITS contributions. ITS? Although I'm not sure what it has to do with the BTS, but could this be Intent To Salvage mentioned in a couple of gigantic threads in the fall of 2012? Cheers, Simon signature.asc Description: signature
Re: Survey of new contributors -- results
On Fri, 2013-08-09 at 10:10 +0200, Simon Chopin wrote: Quoting Lucas Nussbaum (2013-08-09 09:53:18) [snip] Actionable items: [...] - have a more introductory documentation to BTS usage ...or just ease ITS contributions. ITS? Although I'm not sure what it has to do with the BTS, but could this be Intent To Salvage mentioned in a couple of gigantic threads in the fall of 2012? BTS, but with I standing for Issue. Filipus likes to use different terminology. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings I say we take off; nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1376038209.14810.3.ca...@deadeye.wl.decadent.org.uk
Re: Survey of new contributors -- results
On Wed, August 7, 2013 21:52, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: 22/37 were sponsored as part of a team 10/37 had a friend or colleague sponsor them 5/37 were sponsored as part of debian-mentors Other things mentioned (once): - sponsored by the previous maintainer when adopting a package - sponsored by an Ubuntu MOTU who is also a DD | It seems that your best luck, if your package does not fit in a team, | is to find someone close to you (friend/colleague) that will make the | upload... That's quite sad! I'm not following why these numbers would be sad. People are apparently finding collegues or friends to sponsor them, which seems great, not sad. At work we sponsor non-DD's regularly and this is always a positive experience. I think it's acutally encouraging to read that most people do not need debian-mentors but found teams, friends or collegues to work with them. Such longer-standing relations are, in my opinion, better than the one-off sponsoring that happens on d-mentors. Thijs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ee5ffec1f6c61260f8edc37db393657a.squir...@aphrodite.kinkhorst.nl
Re: Survey of new contributors -- results
On 08/08/13 at 10:18 +0200, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: On Wed, August 7, 2013 21:52, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: 22/37 were sponsored as part of a team 10/37 had a friend or colleague sponsor them 5/37 were sponsored as part of debian-mentors Other things mentioned (once): - sponsored by the previous maintainer when adopting a package - sponsored by an Ubuntu MOTU who is also a DD | It seems that your best luck, if your package does not fit in a team, | is to find someone close to you (friend/colleague) that will make the | upload... That's quite sad! I'm not following why these numbers would be sad. People are apparently finding collegues or friends to sponsor them, which seems great, not sad. At work we sponsor non-DD's regularly and this is always a positive experience. I think it's acutally encouraging to read that most people do not need debian-mentors but found teams, friends or collegues to work with them. Such longer-standing relations are, in my opinion, better than the one-off sponsoring that happens on d-mentors. Sure. What I find sad is that people who need to find sponsors through debian-mentors (because there's no suitable team for their packages, or because they don't have friends/colleagues involved in Debian) have such difficulties finding sponsors. (I don't read that into those numbers, which indeed can be read as positive, but into the complaints that it's so hard to find sponsors). Also note that the sponsoring on d-mentors is not necessarily one-off, and that it's generally encouraged to build a sponsoree/sponsor relationship. Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130808083102.ga20...@xanadu.blop.info
Re: Survey of new contributors -- results
On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 1:18 AM, Thijs Kinkhorst th...@debian.org wrote: On Wed, August 7, 2013 21:52, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: 22/37 were sponsored as part of a team 10/37 had a friend or colleague sponsor them 5/37 were sponsored as part of debian-mentors Other things mentioned (once): - sponsored by the previous maintainer when adopting a package - sponsored by an Ubuntu MOTU who is also a DD | It seems that your best luck, if your package does not fit in a team, | is to find someone close to you (friend/colleague) that will make the | upload... That's quite sad! I'm not following why these numbers would be sad. People are apparently finding collegues or friends to sponsor them, which seems great, not sad. At work we sponsor non-DD's regularly and this is always a positive experience. On the other hand, people who do not already have existing relationships or contacts with DDs, and who want to get involved in Debian, may find it much harder to do so than someone who already knows a DD. Having a friend/colleague who is also a DD shouldn't be a prerequisite to contributing packages to Debian (and thankfully it isn't), yet there's no doubt that receiving personalized and prompt feedback from someone you already know puts you in a better position to actively contribute to Debian, compared to somebody with no existing contacts in the FOSS community who uploads a new package to mentors.d.n, files a RFS request, and then waits, only to see his/her package bitrot at mentors.d.n. I think it's acutally encouraging to read that most people do not need debian-mentors but found teams, friends or collegues to work with them. Such longer-standing relations are, in my opinion, better than the one-off sponsoring that happens on d-mentors. Aside from teams (some which are highly active, some which are not...), debian-mentors is the go-to place for new contributors without any existing contacts, and is also ideally the place for new and fruitful sponsor/sponsoree relationships to develop. Regards, Vincent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caczd_tcg7cn1ck+yuykbthfeltfxn5rcwnxhq+h16agldsv...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Survey of new contributors -- results
On Thu, Aug 08, 2013 at 01:44:05AM -0700, Vincent Cheng wrote: On the other hand, people who do not already have existing relationships or contacts with DDs, and who want to get involved in Debian, may find it much harder to do so than someone who already knows a DD. Having a friend/colleague who is also a DD shouldn't be a prerequisite to contributing packages to Debian (and thankfully it isn't), yet there's no doubt that receiving personalized and prompt feedback from someone you already know puts you in a better position to actively contribute to Debian, compared to somebody with no existing contacts in the FOSS community who uploads a new package to mentors.d.n, files a RFS request, and then waits, only to see his/her package bitrot at mentors.d.n. Hmmm, this comment looks like a déjà-vu to me and my answer was on debian-devel http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/08/msg00067.html Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130808190240.gc5...@an3as.eu
Re: Survey of new contributors -- results
Lucas Nussbaum wrote: Hi, Here is a report on the survey of new contributors I initiated a few weeks ago[1]. Thank you Lucas, and thanks to respondents. [...] Q1: Can you (briefly) introduce yourself? What motivated you to start contributing to Debian? What are you (trying to) contribute to in Debian? Q2: What are your reasons for starting to contribute to Debian *now*? Why didn't you start before? :) | Those two questions being quite open, it is difficult to draw any statistics | from the answers. However, if I try to draw a typical picture of the new | contributor, he/she is a long time Debian user who started contributing to | scratch an itch: package something s/he developed, depend on in its day | job, etc. Often, they don't start contributing earlier because everything | looks fine (everything they need is packaged and seems properly maintained). | However, some (a minority) of new contributors are simply willing to give | back, without any (apparent) specific interest in what they are working on. | [...] So, trying to summarize. (everything below is my personal opinion) As Debian, we usually like people who will join our teams and contribute to our usual team duties. But most new contributors are interested in maintaining a specific package (usually not yet in Debian). If they fail at this first step, they are likely to be lost for Debian. Unfortunately, we suck at sponsoring random packages. Nice loop... Could you precise the proportions here? How many respondents were interested in maintaining a specific package? And how many want to maintain a specific package which is not in Debian? And not just for you, but didn't we recently have an analysis of contributors collaboration in packaging, with statistics on the proportion of team-maintained vs private packages? Actionable items: [...] - have a more introductory documentation to BTS usage ...or just ease ITS contributions. [...] -- Filipus Klutiero http://www.philippecloutier.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52040c6e.7060...@gmail.com
Re: Survey of new contributors -- results
On Wed, Aug 07, 2013 at 09:52:41PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: | It seems that we could get better at listing possible contributions. For | example, we could have a 'apt-list-possible-contributions' tool that would | list installed packages that are orphaned or RFAed. Like wnpp-alert? Kurt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130807195736.ga4...@roeckx.be
Re: Survey of new contributors -- results
On 07/08/13 at 21:57 +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote: On Wed, Aug 07, 2013 at 09:52:41PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: | It seems that we could get better at listing possible contributions. For | example, we could have a 'apt-list-possible-contributions' tool that would | list installed packages that are orphaned or RFAed. Like wnpp-alert? Clearly, we have many useful and interesting packages that are orphaned, and would be quite easy to maintain for newcomers. If prospective contributors don't identify them as possible targets, it means that wnpp-alert fails to advertise such contribution targets to newcomers. Why? How can we fix that? - I think that wnpp-alert is still relatively unknown - wnpp-alert is not intrusive. Personally, I tend to run it once or twice a year to demo it to people, and that's all (shame on me). Setting it up in a way that reports newly orphaned packages is not completely trivial (you can run it with --diff in a cron job, but then you need a local mail setup). Something more intrusive like apt-listchanges or apt-listbugs could give better results. - wnpp-alert only reports about packages in WNPP. we could report about other possible targets for contribution. For example, we are not very good at identifying packages that should be orphaned, but there are quite simple criterias that can be used to determine packages where the maintainer could use some help. Lucas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130807203524.ga5...@xanadu.blop.info
