Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
> "Steve" == Steve Langasek writes: Steve, I'm writing to confirm understanding of our disagreement and to acknowledge the point you made and explain why it is not persuasive to me. I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, simply letting you know I've considered what you have to say, and making sure everything is out on the table as we work toward consensus. Steve> If one has made statements outside of Debian demonstrating Steve> that they hold to an ideology that denies the dignity of Steve> other members of the project, unless those statements have Steve> been *recanted*, the existence of those statements has a Steve> chilling effect on working with others within the project Steve> *per se*. It is not enough to ask that someone *pretend* to Steve> respect other members of the project while working within the Steve> project, if their outside behavior shows that they don't Steve> actually respect those other members of the project. Steve, as I expected, this is our disagreement. I hear the issue you are talking about, and broadly agree that would generally be the case. However, excluding someone because of the ideas they have supported is a really huge step, and I think that there is a slippery slope involved. In practice I expect that my preferred outcome would produce the same results as yours. Because in practice, I expect when we asked someone about the extreme ideas they supported outside of Debian, we would generally find they didn't have a good answer for how they would meet our standards within Debian. It only matters if someone comes up with the good enough answer that we'd consider them. To me, taking the step you propose of actually excluding someone because of ideologies they support is a big step. I'd rather not do that if lesser steps like excluding someone because they cannot explain how they would work constructively in uor community work. I guess If someone had an answer to that question, I'd rather listen to that answer and make up my mind (or have whoever is delegated at the time do so). I cannot see such an answer now, but again and again I find that my imagination is insufficient to reality. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
Quoting Steve Langasek (2021-04-13 22:17:16) > I broadly agree with your framing of this, Sam, with one particular point of > disagreement. > > On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 01:17:30PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: > > 2) If your statements (even outside of Debian) commit you to a path that > > denies dignity, it's entirely reasonable for us to talk to you about > > whether you'll be able to act in accordance with the CoC and diversity > > statement. > > Please convince us that you will be able to treat everyone in Debian > > with dignity consistent with how we view dignity; convince us that your > > actions in Debian will create a welcoming community and treat all our > > members with respect. > > If you can answer that question, then we should hold you to that > > answer. If your answer is good, I don't think statements outside of > > Debian should get in the way of your participation beyond raising the > > discussion of how you will meet our community standards within Debian. > > I do think if you affiliate yourself with an extreme ideology in your > > statements outside Debian, it's reasonable for us to be highly skeptical > > and to ask you to show us how it's going to work. > > > I understand some people in the project disagree with me and would like > > to kick people out for their statements outside of Debian. > > That's just further than I can go right now. > > If one has made statements outside of Debian demonstrating that they hold to > an ideology that denies the dignity of other members of the project, unless > those statements have been *recanted*, the existence of those statements has > a chilling effect on working with others within the project *per se*. It is > not enough to ask that someone *pretend* to respect other members of the > project while working within the project, if their outside behavior shows > that they don't actually respect those other members of the project. > > If a member of the Debian Project were known to have sexually > assaulted someone, this would be a concern for Debian being a safe > environment. It wouldn't matter that the assault happened outside the > context of Debian work, or that this individual had no opportunity to > assault people inside of Debian. > > The same applies to other, "lesser" behaviors that invalidate the > innate dignity of other members of the project. A committment to keep > one's mouth shut in a Debian context doesn't remove awareness of the > broader context. I understand how the above can make sense for a community. It is however not how our current Code of Conduct is constructed, and consequently not a description of how *our* community works but only personal oppinion of yours. - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
I broadly agree with your framing of this, Sam, with one particular point of disagreement. On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 01:17:30PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: > 2) If your statements (even outside of Debian) commit you to a path that > denies dignity, it's entirely reasonable for us to talk to you about > whether you'll be able to act in accordance with the CoC and diversity > statement. > Please convince us that you will be able to treat everyone in Debian > with dignity consistent with how we view dignity; convince us that your > actions in Debian will create a welcoming community and treat all our > members with respect. > If you can answer that question, then we should hold you to that > answer. If your answer is good, I don't think statements outside of > Debian should get in the way of your participation beyond raising the > discussion of how you will meet our community standards within Debian. > I do think if you affiliate yourself with an extreme ideology in your > statements outside Debian, it's reasonable for us to be highly skeptical > and to ask you to show us how it's going to work. > I understand some people in the project disagree with me and would like > to kick people out for their statements outside of Debian. > That's just further than I can go right now. If one has made statements outside of Debian demonstrating that they hold to an ideology that denies the dignity of other members of the project, unless those statements have been *recanted*, the existence of those statements has a chilling effect on working with others within the project *per se*. It is not enough to ask that someone *pretend* to respect other members of the project while working within the project, if their outside behavior shows that they don't actually respect those other members of the project. If a member of the Debian Project were known to have sexually assaulted someone, this would be a concern for Debian being a safe environment. It wouldn't matter that the assault happened outside the context of Debian work, or that this individual had no opportunity to assault people inside of Debian. The same applies to other, "lesser" behaviors that invalidate the innate dignity of other members of the project. A committment to keep one's mouth shut in a Debian context doesn't remove awareness of the broader context. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developer https://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
On 2021/04/12 18:41, Michael Stone wrote: > Marxists? Maoists? Stalinists? Anarchists? Zionists? Anti-zionists? > Militant Quebec nationalists? Royalists? Imperialists? Indigenous > resistance groups? Ecoterrorists? Anyone that someone calls a terrorist? > Speciesists? Anti-speciesists? Eugenicists? Any government that comes to > power via a coup? Any government that maintains power while suppressing > popular revolt? Anyone who participated in genocide? Anyone descended > from someone who participated in a genocide? Anyone who denies a > genocide? Anyone repeating a false genocide narrative? (By the way, you > had better be very, very careful about creating the appearance that > debian (via the DPL) is taking a position on some of those, because you > could get debian banned in various places if you say the wrong thing.) That's purely up to DAM, and while there aren't any extensive background checks, I can tell you that they're pretty good at spotting some red flags (that other DDs can also raise with DAM during someone's NM process). > The idea that "nazis" or "fascists" represent the full spectrum of what > can go wrong in human systems, or that understanding complex and > emotional conflicts is as simple as "blame the nazis" is simply wrong. > I'd go so far as to posit that the only common element in extremist > ideologies is the certainty that their own beliefs and tactics are both > superior to their opponents', and unimpeachable. I'd further posit that > it's possible to have extremist positions on any side of any issue > humans can argue about, and also that it's generally impossible to > identify a specific point on a continuum of beliefs at which a position > changes from "reasonable disagreement" to "extremism". It was clearly just one example, one that admittedly gets overused because it's easy and lazy. And sure, there are all kinds of extremists, although there are especially those who are most problematic in society and in our communities. > The idea that debian should or even could create a list of acceptable > and unacceptable beliefs in all facets of any participant's life is > preposterous. All we can reasonably do is require certain standards of > behavior within forums we control or which are immediately adjacent. It's really not all that preposterous, I think (judging by the long list you posted in the first paragraph) that you're jumping to the incorrect conclusions on what I'd like to achieve with expanding our CoC. > Even from people who have declared that their opponent is a "nazi". I would consider calling another person a "nazi" to be CoC violation even on it's first point. Calling someone a nazi because you don't agree with someone is certainly very disrespectful and highly inappropriate. -Jonathan
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
On 2021/04/12 17:30, Thaddeus H. Black wrote: > On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 02:56:34PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote: >> Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep >> those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here, >> no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities. > > Would you care to put that to a vote? I think you'll lose -- and if > you win, you'll fracture the Project. Whether I'd like to put that to a vote? Good question! I'll have to come back to you on that. At the very least, I hope that we get to the point where we can have better information gathering and decision making within the project, and that if we do need to make a formal, project-wide poll, that we have something better than a GR as our only blunt instrument for that. > I say it with all respect, Jonathan, as someone who admires you and > judges you to have been a tactful, prudent, competent, energetic, > effective Leader; but politicization of Debian has gone far enough. We > are not going to bar persons who identify with fascist doctrine or any > other doctrine from the Project if I have anything to say about it. *blush* uhm, that's a lot of nice words from someone I haven't even met yet, so thanks for cushioning the blow. I'm pretty sure that you're familiar with the paradox of tolerance, so I'm not going to bore or patronize you by explaining it, but at some point we have to draw a line at what kind of people we allow inside our community. Thankfully, to the best of my knowledge, we have no neo-nazis or similar extremists within our community. I'd like to keep it that way. Sometimes people with opposing views are valuable, but other times they are just destructive. Bigots in all shapes and form will ultimately only hurt the project if we allow them in. And ultimately, I guide my decisions on what's best for the project, not by the feelings of those who don't care about the feelings of others. > Someone might reply by citing the Code of Conduct > and Diversity Statement, but such citations do not impress me. The Code > and Statement were adopted to smooth the Project's work, not to menace > political undesirables, nor to empower the easily offended. In my > strong opinion, Diversity includes everyone, even, especially fascists. > And do you know what? The text of the Diversity Statement agrees with > me, unless one were determined to twist its adverb "constructively" to > authorize mischievous *deconstruction* of the Project along > ideological lines. It's true that the CoC does indeed state that everyone is welcome, without mentioning exceptions, but the only kind of people I would exclude are the people who by their very beliefs and way of living, already violate the CoC. I don't think that's very controversial, > For all I know, a handful of Members might be determined to do just > that. I hope not. If so, though, then I'll warrant that the > deconstructors are in the minority, and a small minority at that. Given > an up-or-down vote, they would lose. Those of us who are working to fix the problems in our community are doing so because we want to grow our community, not because we want to deconstruct anything. We're tired of seeing people leave because of mysogyny or similar offenses, we want to build Debian into something much bigger and be inclusive of all walks of like while doing so. > Meanwhile, regarding the GR, I have no comment except that I have cast > my vote, same as everyone else. However, your statement as quoted above > cannot be supported. Well, I suppose we fundamentally disagree then. Thanks for voting, though. > The time for the tail to wag the dog is over. It's time to get back to > the open source. Despite the turmoil in the organisation we so deeply care about (and we do care about the FSF), Debian has been making good strides. There's the FTP team that did stellar work ahead of freeze which helped smooth out our initial freeze stages. I've made some gentle pushes in a few areas and our community has responded so well that it even seems likely that we may have the release for bullseye by the end of May[1], which is quite good if you consider that buster was released in July with similar freeze dates preseeding that. There's been great work all around the project over the last here. The mentors site has had a big overhaul, fixing many of its issues and modernising the stack, that site is crucial for helping new contributors with getting their packages in to Debian. Debian Trends have been updated, the Debian Screenshots site has a completely revamped look and feel, our front page on our website has had a re-design (with further changes planned to make it look really snazzy), we gained preseed.debian.net, a new service to list all preseed options, we've done experiments to re-build the archive with clang, worked on machine learning policy, deprecated debhelper 5+6, we've even gotten computers to handle more of our packaging work
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
> "Steve" == Steve McIntyre writes: Steve> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 03:30:21PM +, Thaddeus H. Black wrote: Steve> Umm. Our diversity statement and CoC define agreed Steve> expectations of behaviour and communication within the Steve> project; people espousing fascist ideologies are surely not Steve> going to fit those standards. Do you somehow think they're Steve> compatible? In general, no, probably not. But compared to judging which ideologies are automatic bans and which we will tolerate, focusing on whether someone can work consistently with the CoC and the diversity statement seems easier to evaluate and to defend. I don't want to see us developing and debating (even within delegated teams) a set of organizations we'll have no part of. I'd rather see us focusing on whether members of our community follow standards such as the CoC, diversity statement etc. Some members of our community have claimed that others were Nazis or fascist in ways that were not obvious to me. I wrote the following remarks earlier today and decided not to send them because I was hoping this discussion would die down. It hasn't, so here's my attempt to balance focusing on creating a welcoming community while respecting political freedom of our members. I understand I'm disagreeing with somemembers of the project. I find that what Jonathan said today is too far for me. But I find that the practical difference between what Jonathan advocates and what I'd be comfortable with is small to non-existent. I'm sharing this in the hopes that others can find middle grounds in what I say. First, to define extreme views. I'd like to focus on views that deny the dignity of some, or that treat some people as lesser than others. My personal desire for the project would be to approach extreme views that are incompatible with treating everyone with dignity and humanity as follows: 1) As Russ said, and I agree, we should not police thoughts. What stays inside your own head is none of our business. 2) If your statements (even outside of Debian) commit you to a path that denies dignity, it's entirely reasonable for us to talk to you about whether you'll be able to act in accordance with the CoC and diversity statement. Please convince us that you will be able to treat everyone in Debian with dignity consistent with how we view dignity; convince us that your actions in Debian will create a welcoming community and treat all our members with respect. If you can answer that question, then we should hold you to that answer. If your answer is good, I don't think statements outside of Debian should get in the way of your participation beyond raising the discussion of how you will meet our community standards within Debian. I do think if you affiliate yourself with an extreme ideology in your statements outside Debian, it's reasonable for us to be highly skeptical and to ask you to show us how it's going to work. I understand some people in the project disagree with me and would like to kick people out for their statements outside of Debian. That's just further than I can go right now. 3) going around within Debian saying you are a political extremest following a party that does not treat everyone with dignity is likely to be incompatible with the CoC in and of itself. It might depend on the context, but most contexts I can see would reasonably make the classes of people your extreme ideology considers lesser feel unwelcome. 4) Actions, especially actions within Debian that are inconsistent with treating everyone with dignity need to be taken seriously. If you have claimed affiliation with a group that advocates such actions, I think it makes it even more serious. I think the practical effect of the above is that if you're acting as a fascist , you won't be welcome here. I'd prefer to make that determination based on actions rather than affiliations. --Sam signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
On 2021-04-12 Steve McIntyre wrote: > On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 03:30:21PM +, Thaddeus H. Black wrote: [...] >> Someone might reply by citing the Code of Conduct >> and Diversity Statement, but such citations do not impress me. The Code >> and Statement were adopted to smooth the Project's work, not to menace >> political undesirables, nor to empower the easily offended. In my >> strong opinion, Diversity includes everyone, even, especially fascists. [...] > Umm. Our diversity statement and CoC define agreed expectations of > behaviour and communication within the project; people espousing > fascist ideologies are surely not going to fit those standards. Do you > somehow think they're compatible? Thaddeus responded to | if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep | those views off of the project channels, so your question seems to be beside the point since the explicite premise was that the hypothetic project member did not act fascist within the project. cu Andreas -- `What a good friend you are to him, Dr. Maturin. His other friends are so grateful to you.' `I sew his ears on from time to time, sure'
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 04:55:28PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote: On 2021/04/12 15:37, Michael Stone wrote: Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here, no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities. Does that go for all extremist ideologies or just the one? Probably all of them. I don't have anything specific in mind, but my guess is that there would be some edge cases where we disagree on what would constitute an extremist ideology, I've thought that we should probably amend our CoC at some point to explain what kind of people are /not/ welcome in Debian, but that's a matter for another GR :) Marxists? Maoists? Stalinists? Anarchists? Zionists? Anti-zionists? Militant Quebec nationalists? Royalists? Imperialists? Indigenous resistance groups? Ecoterrorists? Anyone that someone calls a terrorist? Speciesists? Anti-speciesists? Eugenicists? Any government that comes to power via a coup? Any government that maintains power while suppressing popular revolt? Anyone who participated in genocide? Anyone descended from someone who participated in a genocide? Anyone who denies a genocide? Anyone repeating a false genocide narrative? (By the way, you had better be very, very careful about creating the appearance that debian (via the DPL) is taking a position on some of those, because you could get debian banned in various places if you say the wrong thing.) The idea that "nazis" or "fascists" represent the full spectrum of what can go wrong in human systems, or that understanding complex and emotional conflicts is as simple as "blame the nazis" is simply wrong. I'd go so far as to posit that the only common element in extremist ideologies is the certainty that their own beliefs and tactics are both superior to their opponents', and unimpeachable. I'd further posit that it's possible to have extremist positions on any side of any issue humans can argue about, and also that it's generally impossible to identify a specific point on a continuum of beliefs at which a position changes from "reasonable disagreement" to "extremism". The idea that debian should or even could create a list of acceptable and unacceptable beliefs in all facets of any participant's life is preposterous. All we can reasonably do is require certain standards of behavior within forums we control or which are immediately adjacent. Even from people who have declared that their opponent is a "nazi".
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 03:30:21PM +, Thaddeus H. Black wrote: >On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 02:56:34PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote: > >Someone might reply by citing the Code of Conduct >and Diversity Statement, but such citations do not impress me. The Code >and Statement were adopted to smooth the Project's work, not to menace >political undesirables, nor to empower the easily offended. In my >strong opinion, Diversity includes everyone, even, especially fascists. >And do you know what? The text of the Diversity Statement agrees with >me, unless one were determined to twist its adverb "constructively" to >authorize mischievous *deconstruction* of the Project along >ideological lines. Umm. Our diversity statement and CoC define agreed expectations of behaviour and communication within the project; people espousing fascist ideologies are surely not going to fit those standards. Do you somehow think they're compatible? -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com You lock the door And throw away the key There's someone in my head but it's not me
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 02:56:34PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote: > Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep > those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here, > no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities. Would you care to put that to a vote? I think you'll lose -- and if you win, you'll fracture the Project. I say it with all respect, Jonathan, as someone who admires you and judges you to have been a tactful, prudent, competent, energetic, effective Leader; but politicization of Debian has gone far enough. We are not going to bar persons who identify with fascist doctrine or any other doctrine from the Project if I have anything to say about it. Someone might reply by citing the Code of Conduct and Diversity Statement, but such citations do not impress me. The Code and Statement were adopted to smooth the Project's work, not to menace political undesirables, nor to empower the easily offended. In my strong opinion, Diversity includes everyone, even, especially fascists. And do you know what? The text of the Diversity Statement agrees with me, unless one were determined to twist its adverb "constructively" to authorize mischievous *deconstruction* of the Project along ideological lines. For all I know, a handful of Members might be determined to do just that. I hope not. If so, though, then I'll warrant that the deconstructors are in the minority, and a small minority at that. Given an up-or-down vote, they would lose. Meanwhile, regarding the GR, I have no comment except that I have cast my vote, same as everyone else. However, your statement as quoted above cannot be supported. The time for the tail to wag the dog is over. It's time to get back to the open source. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
On 2021/04/12 15:37, Michael Stone wrote: >> Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep >> those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here, >> no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities. > > Does that go for all extremist ideologies or just the one? Probably all of them. I don't have anything specific in mind, but my guess is that there would be some edge cases where we disagree on what would constitute an extremist ideology, I've thought that we should probably amend our CoC at some point to explain what kind of people are /not/ welcome in Debian, but that's a matter for another GR :) -Jonathan
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 02:56:34PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote: On 2021/04/11 01:28, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: Although I really prefer not to have them in the project, its is not the Debian project's task to rule about political believs, opinions, religions, fetishes and whatever else. But I expect that people keep these things out of Debian and especially the public discussion as far as possble. So long as Debian is not getting involved, it absolutely does not matter to us what people do outside of Debian. Let's focus on creating the best distribution instead. Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here, no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities. Does that go for all extremist ideologies or just the one?
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
Le lundi 12 avril 2021 à 14:56:34+0200, Jonathan Carter a écrit : > On 2021/04/11 01:28, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: > > Although I really prefer not to have them in the project, its is not the > > Debian project's task to rule about political believs, opinions, religions, > > fetishes and whatever else. But I expect that people keep these things out > > of > > Debian and especially the public discussion as far as possble. So long as > > Debian is not getting involved, it absolutely does not matter to us what > > people do outside of Debian. Let's focus on creating the best distribution > > instead. > > Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep > those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here, > no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities. +1 -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
On 2021/04/11 01:28, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: > Although I really prefer not to have them in the project, its is not the > Debian project's task to rule about political believs, opinions, religions, > fetishes and whatever else. But I expect that people keep these things out of > Debian and especially the public discussion as far as possble. So long as > Debian is not getting involved, it absolutely does not matter to us what > people do outside of Debian. Let's focus on creating the best distribution > instead. Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here, no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities. -Jonathan OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
On Sun, 2021-04-11 at 03:06 +0200, gregor herrmann wrote: > > I agree to a certain degree; as far as we talk about opinions or > beliefs, but (leftist slogan:) "fascism is not an opinion, it's a > crime" or (more verbose): I don't want to be in the same community as > people who deny other people their basic human dignity or (more > direct) who don't consider others as humans and want to kill them or > see them dead. And that's what Nationalsozialismus and facism is > about. [0] Agree, but on the other hand - luckily - there is no thought police and you don't know (and actually I don't want to know) whats going on in the brain of some people. Debian is a large project that attracts people from all over the world, so there will be always people with opinions and backgrounds that we personally don't want to support. -- Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
> "gregor" == gregor herrmann writes: I wrote a long post talking about an approach for possibly balancing these trade offs in Debian. Just my ideas, but perhaps reasonably well thought out. Then I realized that now is not the time to send that post. If in a month or so when things are calmed down, someone is interested in that post, ping me and I'll send it. If no one is interested I never need to dig it up. --Sam
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 03:06:14AM +0200, gregor herrmann wrote: > On Sun, 11 Apr 2021 01:28:45 +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: > > > On Wed, 2021-04-07 at 21:38 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > > > I wonder, though -- do we have a Nazi anywhere in the project? Could you > > > point to one? > > Although I really prefer not to have them in the project, its is not the > > Debian project's task to rule about political believs, opinions, religions, > > fetishes and whatever else. > > I agree to a certain degree; as far as we talk about opinions or > beliefs, but (leftist slogan:) "fascism is not an opinion, it's a > crime" or (more verbose): I don't want to be in the same community as > people who deny other people their basic human dignity or (more > direct) who don't consider others as humans and want to kill them or > see them dead. And that's what Nationalsozialismus and facism is > about. [0] > > Cheers, > gregor > > > [0] It gets a bit more complicated when differentiating between > "classic" Nazis and neo-nazis and old Italian fascists and > neo-facists and national conservatives and the (old) "Nouvelle > Droite" and the "Neue Rechte" and the "Identitäre" and all kinds of > right-wing extremists and right-wing populist and "autoritärer > Nationalradikalismus" … But in the end it boils down to the > "Ideologie der Ungleicheit", i.e. the belief that some people are > more valuable than others. Debian is about common goals. Sometimes I think we already have them, sometimes I think we have a long way to go. Both scenarios, travelling and living at the destination, are better with a "we". A good "we" improves by mutual respect. Groeten Geert Stappers -- Silence is hard to parse signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
On Sun, 11 Apr 2021 01:28:45 +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: > On Wed, 2021-04-07 at 21:38 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > > I wonder, though -- do we have a Nazi anywhere in the project? Could you > > point to one? > Although I really prefer not to have them in the project, its is not the > Debian project's task to rule about political believs, opinions, religions, > fetishes and whatever else. I agree to a certain degree; as far as we talk about opinions or beliefs, but (leftist slogan:) "fascism is not an opinion, it's a crime" or (more verbose): I don't want to be in the same community as people who deny other people their basic human dignity or (more direct) who don't consider others as humans and want to kill them or see them dead. And that's what Nationalsozialismus and facism is about. [0] Cheers, gregor [0] It gets a bit more complicated when differentiating between "classic" Nazis and neo-nazis and old Italian fascists and neo-facists and national conservatives and the (old) "Nouvelle Droite" and the "Neue Rechte" and the "Identitäre" and all kinds of right-wing extremists and right-wing populist and "autoritärer Nationalradikalismus" … But in the end it boils down to the "Ideologie der Ungleicheit", i.e. the belief that some people are more valuable than others. -- .''`. https://info.comodo.priv.at -- Debian Developer https://www.debian.org : :' : OpenPGP fingerprint D1E1 316E 93A7 60A8 104D 85FA BB3A 6801 8649 AA06 `. `' Member VIBE!AT & SPI Inc. -- Supporter Free Software Foundation Europe `- NP: Donovan: The little tin soldier signature.asc Description: Digital Signature
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
On Wed, 2021-04-07 at 21:38 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > > I wonder, though -- do we have a Nazi anywhere in the project? Could you > point to one? Although I really prefer not to have them in the project, its is not the Debian project's task to rule about political believs, opinions, religions, fetishes and whatever else. But I expect that people keep these things out of Debian and especially the public discussion as far as possble. So long as Debian is not getting involved, it absolutely does not matter to us what people do outside of Debian. Let's focus on creating the best distribution instead. -- Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 01:23:11PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: > Debian's diversity statement commits us to be welcoming to all people > regardless of who they *are*. > > It does *not* commit us to welcome all people into our community regardless > of the *idealogies they express*. > > Nazis can fuck off. > > I will reserve the right to tell nazis to fuck off, in private or in public > according to what I deem most appropriate and effective, up until the point > that the Debian Project kicks me out, or until it becomes clear to me that > the Debian Project is no longer worth defending against nazis. I wonder, though -- do we have a Nazi anywhere in the project? Could you point to one? Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ According to recent spams, "all my email accounts are owned ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ by a hacker". So what's the problem? ⠈⠳⣄
Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board]
[Apologies, this is all off-topic for debian-devel and I should have set an appropriate MFT from the beginning. Corrected now.] On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 09:59:55AM +0200, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: > Firstly, I was notidied via mail that the message was initially private (but > it was not, if I understand what you say, and since I read it). I am sorry > for this as your thread should have been private and would not have created > such situation. I would not have had any feedback if it had been private, > sure. If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that because someone has taken my private messages, without my consent, and posted them to a public mailing list, *I* am worthy of reprimand with respect to conduct on public mailing lists? You asked "both sides" to de-escalate in the context of the Debian mailing lists, when only one party had escalated anything on Debian mailing lists. I am not defending my particular private messages as appropriate to post on a Debian mailing list. I also did not post them to a Debian mailing list. They would have been off-topic and noise and there is no reason to subject the rest of the Debian community to such a distraction. > Secondly, and I let others CT members confirm or not, the author of this > message is now under attention, so that such facts do not happen again. I > am not sure anymore (so much things happent last week about mailing > lists), but the person may be under a possible ban or ban by listmasters. > If he is not, the mail I sent requested him to stop, and if he does not, > actions needs to be taken categorically. Banning this person, who is not a member of the Debian community in any way, from our mailing lists, seems like a perfectly appropriate course of action; and if this has been done, I appreciate the listmasters' action in this regard. But it would have been perfectly applicable for the Community Team to engage directly with the listmasters to achieve this effect, *instead of* publicly calling for de-escalation from "both sides". > Anyway, even if we struggle against transphobia, and that is a central > point of our CoC and our general action as a CT, when the public mails > become insulting, with words such as "shit" or others personal injures, > are not acceptable anyway. Even if such a tone defends a minority, it > does not help Debian to be a welcoming community. The good thing is to > report such mails, in particular when becoming public, and ban the person > who is author of such attacks against transphobic or any other form of > diversity. Debian's diversity statement commits us to be welcoming to all people regardless of who they *are*. It does *not* commit us to welcome all people into our community regardless of the *idealogies they express*. Nazis can fuck off. I will reserve the right to tell nazis to fuck off, in private or in public according to what I deem most appropriate and effective, up until the point that the Debian Project kicks me out, or until it becomes clear to me that the Debian Project is no longer worth defending against nazis. If the Community Team thinks there is a list of words that are unacceptable under any circumstances on Debian mailing lists, then they should publish the list of those words for transparency. And they ought to work with the listmasters to implement this as an automatic filter instead of a post-hoc persecution of Debian project members based on content they have sent. I do hope that it includes the phrase "freedom of speech", which has been used to do much more harm to our community than "shit". > > Hi all, > > > > After some long thought, I believe this message warrants a public response > > (and discussion). > > > > The facts are these: > > > > - an individual who is not part of the Debian community sent me (and other > > people) a private, unsolicited email sharing his views on the current > > topic of the day. > > - I responded, privately, telling him exactly what I thought of him and > > his > > views. > > - He in turn forwarded my private responses to a public mailing list > > without my consent. > > > > The response by Jean-Philippe, a member of the Debian Community Team, was a > > call for de-escalation and civility "by both sides"; i.e., tone policing. > > > > While I am no oppressed minority who is going to be turned away from Debian > > as a result of such tone policing, a member of the Community Team tone > > policing an ally who is categorically rejecting transphobia sends a very bad > > message to trans members of our community. It shows that responding to > > transphobes by communicating using strong language that the Debian community > > rejects their views leaves one potentially subject to censure from the > > Community Team. > > > > I think the Community Team should do better. > > > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 09:21:32PM +0100, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Please descalate, it is an emergency.
