Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 09:28, Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no wrote: ]] Michael Gilbert Hi, | On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:27:08 +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: | | You don't think so. I do. One of the reasons is it puts a, IMO too | low value on other, similar work, so by taking petty donations for | small pieces of work, you are lowering the value of my work too. | Lowering the value of the work your codevelopers are doing is, IMO, | rude. I realise that's not the intention of asking for money, but | the effect is there. | | How can you possibly reduce the monetary value of volunteer work? Or | more inquisitively, how is it even feasible to assign a price to such | work in the first place? I did not write monetary value, I wrote value. By not assigning a monetary value to the work, it gets valued by its usefulness (or prettyness or whatever). Once you assign a monetary value to it, the non-monetary value gets in the background because people will use the monetary value as a proxy for its non-monetary value. Let me make a simile, which like all similes are not perfect, but might get my point across, since it seems people find it hard to understand: Assume you are helping a friend move house. They offer you €2 for the work. Would you be happy? I'd be insulted, since what they're doing is assigning a very low value on your work, rather than just saying «Thanks a lot for the help» afterwards. If they just said «Thank you», the value they put on your work and thereby how appreciated you feel will be higher. Would you feel better if the friend offered €1000? €10k? If Raphael made €10k/month (instead of €15), would your response be different? What's your problem actually? I'm losing track here (IE, I don't know what your point is). -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktim5=okaefgndntc-dq6zni0zzcwx05a68_rj...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
]] Raphael Hertzog Hi, | Are those sentences correctly representing your concerns? Are there | other concerns to add? My concern is actually more that I don't like people begging, and the flattr buttons do look like begging to me. I'd rather not be paid at all than be paid tiny amounts for work I do, and those 25€/month you're talking about is, for me, tiny amounts. If people want to say thanks, an email, a note on IRC or a beer when I meet people in real life are much more effective ways doing so than just dropping pocket change at me. A lesser concern is that people will end up associating Debian (and therefore Debian Developers) with begging, and I'd rather not be associated with such activities. I know many people don't consider asking for donations begging, but I do. Regards, -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87mxpe96vz@qurzaw.linpro.no
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:24, Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no wrote: ]] Raphael Hertzog Hi, | Are those sentences correctly representing your concerns? Are there | other concerns to add? My concern is actually more that I don't like people begging, and the flattr buttons do look like begging to me. I'd rather not be paid at all than be paid tiny amounts for work I do, and those 25€/month you're talking about is, for me, tiny amounts. If people want to say thanks, an email, a note on IRC or a beer when I meet people in real life are much more effective ways doing so than just dropping pocket change at me. It's not begging in a sense that someone IS doing some work. It's more like use this thing that I produced, and if you want, you can reward me with a few cents. There simply is nothing distasteful about that. In fact, I find it courageous, considering the taboo surrounding money. OTOH, a beggar doesn't provide any service at all. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktinhhm49zaok4yf0d1+m=crbidgpow5oxxsyv...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
Hi, On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: It's not begging in a sense that someone IS doing some work. It's more like use this thing that I produced, and if you want, you can reward me with a few cents. There simply is nothing distasteful about that. In fact, I find it courageous, considering the taboo surrounding money. OTOH, a beggar doesn't provide any service at all. Tshepang, I appreciate that you like my courage and my willingness to try new things, but we're speaking of feelings that some people have. You're not going to change those by telling them they are unfounded. It's good that they are expressed (as long as they are not turned as personal attacks) so that we can take them into account and try to avoid bad feelings when possible. There are also topics where we must accept to disagree and be able to move on nevertheless because they are unrelated to our main mission of building a free operating system. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer ◈ [Flattr=20693] Follow my Debian News ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.com (English) ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.fr (Français) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101112155624.gb23...@rivendell.home.ouaza.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
]] Tshepang Lekhonkhobe | It's more like use this thing that I produced, and if you want, you | can reward me with a few cents. There simply is nothing distasteful | about that. You don't think so. I do. One of the reasons is it puts a, IMO too low value on other, similar work, so by taking petty donations for small pieces of work, you are lowering the value of my work too. Lowering the value of the work your codevelopers are doing is, IMO, rude. I realise that's not the intention of asking for money, but the effect is there. As I said, I'd rather give my time away for a useful purpose than being paid less than €1/hour, which is about what Raphael cited for what he earns off flattr. (He's posted 13 articles over the last month, each took at least two hours to write, and he's making around €25/month.) | In fact, I find it courageous, considering the taboo surrounding | money. OTOH, a beggar doesn't provide any service at all. My definition of people begging for money include charities asking for money on the street. Those charities usually provide useful services. I guess that wasn't entirely clear from my email. -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87iq028q3n@qurzaw.linpro.no
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 17:56, Raphael Hertzog hert...@debian.org wrote: Hi, On Fri, 12 Nov 2010, Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: It's not begging in a sense that someone IS doing some work. It's more like use this thing that I produced, and if you want, you can reward me with a few cents. There simply is nothing distasteful about that. In fact, I find it courageous, considering the taboo surrounding money. OTOH, a beggar doesn't provide any service at all. Tshepang, I appreciate that you like my courage and my willingness to try new things, but we're speaking of feelings that some people have. You're not going to change those by telling them they are unfounded. It does happen at times. Many people change their minds after some discussion, but it tends to be very uncomfortable, that's why you find people searching for 'facts' that strengthen their feelings (an act of dishonesty actually, though often not conscious). It's good that they are expressed (as long as they are not turned as personal attacks) so that we can take them into account and try to avoid bad feelings when possible. Agreed. There are also topics where we must accept to disagree and be able to move on nevertheless because they are unrelated to our main mission of building a free operating system. Agreed. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktimmd-eucuqrwmmtwab5bkhl8zk5dg8zwwkew...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 18:27, Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no wrote: ]] Tshepang Lekhonkhobe | It's more like use this thing that I produced, and if you want, you | can reward me with a few cents. There simply is nothing distasteful | about that. You don't think so. I do. One of the reasons is it puts a, IMO too low value on other, similar work, so by taking petty donations for small pieces of work, you are lowering the value of my work too. Lowering the value of the work your codevelopers are doing is, IMO, rude. I realise that's not the intention of asking for money, but the effect is there. I don't understand this argument. How does it lower the value of other's work? As I said, I'd rather give my time away for a useful purpose than being paid less than €1/hour, which is about what Raphael cited for what he earns off flattr. (He's posted 13 articles over the last month, each took at least two hours to write, and he's making around €25/month.) Matter of preference, nothing more. | In fact, I find it courageous, considering the taboo surrounding | money. OTOH, a beggar doesn't provide any service at all. My definition of people begging for money include charities asking for money on the street. Those charities usually provide useful services. I guess that wasn't entirely clear from my email. So, you don't like charities asking for money? I say this because you mentioned that you don't like begging. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktik1gyzkohzdqwyn+xbra8kh6khzl7ks40eqk...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:27:08 +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: ]] Tshepang Lekhonkhobe | It's more like use this thing that I produced, and if you want, you | can reward me with a few cents. There simply is nothing distasteful | about that. You don't think so. I do. One of the reasons is it puts a, IMO too low value on other, similar work, so by taking petty donations for small pieces of work, you are lowering the value of my work too. Lowering the value of the work your codevelopers are doing is, IMO, rude. I realise that's not the intention of asking for money, but the effect is there. How can you possibly reduce the monetary value of volunteer work? Or more inquisitively, how is it even feasible to assign a price to such work in the first place? In fact, some have tried. Using a metric such as sloccount, the Debian operating system is valued at $13 billion (I forget the reference, but its out there), and yet I can get it for $0. According to your argument, all of Debian's volunteers are doing the world a major disservice in actively preventing a potential $13 billion in revenue from infusing into the economy. How cruel!? Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101112150447.cf326285.michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:24:32AM +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: ]] Raphael Hertzog Hi, | Are those sentences correctly representing your concerns? Are there | other concerns to add? My concern is actually more that I don't like people begging, and the flattr buttons do look like begging to me. I'd rather not be paid at all than be paid tiny amounts for work I do, and those 25€/month you're talking about is, for me, tiny amounts. If people want to say thanks, an email, a note on IRC or a beer when I meet people in real life are much more effective ways doing so than just dropping pocket change at me. If you looked at the cost of some computer magazines (eg. Linux Journal) and divided the cost of it by the number of pages, the cost per page would be 'tiny amounts', at least that is how I see it. So a blog post, from my perspective is about the same in value. It also brings to mind the 'apps store' model wrt price. People may pay a lot for boxed software but pay what seems like 'beggars' change (less than 3 USD) for apps. And I don't typically hear about 'app store' developers being called 'beggars'. Just my 2 euro-cents. -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux ==.| http://kevix.myopenid.com..| | : :' : The Universal OS| mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/.| | `. `' http://www.debian.org/.| http://counter.li.org [#238656]| |___`-Unless I ask to be CCd,.assume I am subscribed._| -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101112224556.ga15...@horacrux
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
]] Michael Gilbert Hi, | On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 17:27:08 +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: | | You don't think so. I do. One of the reasons is it puts a, IMO too | low value on other, similar work, so by taking petty donations for | small pieces of work, you are lowering the value of my work too. | Lowering the value of the work your codevelopers are doing is, IMO, | rude. I realise that's not the intention of asking for money, but | the effect is there. | | How can you possibly reduce the monetary value of volunteer work? Or | more inquisitively, how is it even feasible to assign a price to such | work in the first place? I did not write monetary value, I wrote value. By not assigning a monetary value to the work, it gets valued by its usefulness (or prettyness or whatever). Once you assign a monetary value to it, the non-monetary value gets in the background because people will use the monetary value as a proxy for its non-monetary value. Let me make a simile, which like all similes are not perfect, but might get my point across, since it seems people find it hard to understand: Assume you are helping a friend move house. They offer you €2 for the work. Would you be happy? I'd be insulted, since what they're doing is assigning a very low value on your work, rather than just saying «Thanks a lot for the help» afterwards. If they just said «Thank you», the value they put on your work and thereby how appreciated you feel will be higher. | […] According to your argument, all of Debian's volunteers are doing | the world a major disservice in actively preventing a potential $13 | billion in revenue from infusing into the economy. How cruel!? I'm not sure how you got to that conclusion at all. Also, I would believe a fair amount of the upstream (and Debian) development is done by people paid to do that work, so surely that number should be smaller. Regards, -- Tollef Fog Heen UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87aald8yyh@qurzaw.linpro.no
Success of iPhone apps (was: Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?)
Charles Plessy ple...@debian.org wrote: And in conclusion, I would like to remind the extraordinary success of non-free software on the iPhone, which I think can be explained by the easiness of micropayement through the Apple webstore. It's clearly not the only reason, and it's not even the first one on the list. You should have told about the high level of integration of the whole platform, the overall quality of the (top) apps, the ease of use, the sexiness of the apps, ... and lots of other things that free software apps do, more often than not, lack. But you absolutely do have a point in that there are lessons to be learned, though the one you are highlighting isn't the most important of all. JB. -- Julien BLACHE - Debian GNU/Linux Developer - jbla...@debian.org Public key available on http://www.jblache.org - KeyID: F5D6 5169 GPG Fingerprint : 935A 79F1 C8B3 3521 FD62 7CC7 CD61 4FD7 F5D6 5169 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87wrok1del.fsf...@sonic.technologeek.org
Re: Success of iPhone apps (was: Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?)
Hello, Julien in reply to Charles Plessy ple...@debian.org wrote: And in conclusion, I would like to remind the extraordinary success of non-free software on the iPhone, which I think can be explained by the easiness of micropayement through the Apple webstore. It's clearly not the only reason, and it's not even the first one on the list. You should have told about the high level of integration of the whole platform, the overall quality of the (top) apps, the ease of use, the sexiness of the apps, ... and lots of other things that free software apps do, more often than not, lack. But you absolutely do have a point in that there are lessons to be learned, though the one you are highlighting isn't the most important of all. the iPhone/Pad/Pod app store was such successful that Apple now started to adopt that thing also for the desktop. There must be something to it that escapes us. We do not even need to run a DebStore ourselves, in principle. Anybody could start that. But why has not for instance Mark has already started one? He must have thought about it and certainly has the resources, too. My personal interest would be less in the applications themselves but into good tutorials that should be sold through us - and possibly even be cross platform and cross packages to some degree. Some larger book store should have an interest to support such as an experiment to conquer new markets, possibly. Best regards, Steffen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2010084303.228...@gmx.net
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
[Charles Plessy, 2010-11-11] I would like to underline that the posts on Planet that contain a Flatter button tend to be more about free software than the others in general. I am much more annoyed by family albums for instance, and large pictures in general, because then the whole screen is taken by one post, and it becomes sometimes necessary to scroll a lot to get to the next one. In comparison, the Flatter button does not each much space. +1 [...] The one thing that I find difficult to accept is the use of tracers. I expect debian.org sites to not contain them, nor to use javascript and cookies when avoidable. +1 (pure links are OK, IMHO) -- Piotr Ożarowski Debian GNU/Linux Developer www.ozarowski.pl www.griffith.cc www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: 1D2F A898 58DA AF62 1786 2DF7 AEF6 F1A2 A745 7645 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2010102224.gc1...@piotro.eu
Re: Success of iPhone apps (was: Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?)
And in conclusion, I would like to remind the extraordinary success of non-free software on the iPhone, which I think can be explained by the easiness of micropayement through the Apple webstore. You should have told about the high level of integration of the whole platform, the overall quality of the (top) apps, the ease of use, the sexiness of the apps, ... and lots of other things that free software apps do, more often than not, lack. We do not even need to run a DebStore ourselves, in principle. Anybody could start that. But why has not for instance Mark has already started one? He must have thought about it and certainly has the resources, too. We do not have a DebStore, but we can help the upstream developers who ask for financial support to receive donnations, by providing links to the URL of choice they provide. I have drafted a system to feed the Ultimate Debian Database with metadata about upstream. I and Andreas tested it on a local UDD clone for bibliographic information, and I think it could be used for financial support as well. Since this is not related to planet.debian.org, I will start a new thread when a test system will be implemented with the real UDD, rather than giving more details here. What I wanted to underline by the parallel with the Apple Webapps, is that it seems that some developers like it because it fits their aspiration of becoming self-employed. I have the impression that at least some Flattr buttons on Planet have the same purpose. Given how manpower is lacking in Debian, I find the initiative quite welcome, even if Flatter is not ideal and the first enthousiastic uses can be a bit loud. Cheers, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2010105055.ga14...@merveille.plessy.net
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 02:44, Russ Allbery r...@debian.org wrote: Michael Gilbert michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com writes: Raphael has every right to attempt to pursue his field of endeavor in any tolerant/respectful manner he chooses. ...using his own property. But not using Debian project resources. Raphael is among the most notable (visible) of all DD's, so why not? If he became a millionaire using flattr, why not? Why not create money where there wasn't? Why is the money topic so sensitive? I'm the sort of person who gets excited by seeing Release Managers get paid for their heroic work. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktinf0bwcbsxlkfwpqgl9vfksmgxip+7hfmkya...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 02:44, Russ Allbery r...@debian.org wrote: Michael Gilbert michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com writes: Raphael has every right to attempt to pursue his field of endeavor in any tolerant/respectful manner he chooses. ...using his own property. But not using Debian project resources. Raphael is among the most notable (visible) of all DD's, so why not? If he became a millionaire using flattr, why not? Why not create money where there wasn't? Why is the money topic so sensitive? I'm the sort of person who gets excited by seeing Release Managers get paid for their heroic work. For a simple reason, the DMUP [0]; which every user of Debian resources must follow. It says (in its introduction, point 1). * Don't use Debian Facilities for private financial gain The problem here is not about Raphael being allowed to become millionaire with flattr or not; it is about people using the Debian planet (which is Debian resources) for private financial gain. This has nothing to do with the money topic, but with the rules in place regarding the Debian machines. [0] http://debian.org/devel/dmup.en.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ibgn6e$rn...@dough.gmane.org
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 01:22:54PM +0100, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 02:44, Russ Allbery r...@debian.org wrote: Michael Gilbert michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com writes: Raphael has every right to attempt to pursue his field of endeavor in any tolerant/respectful manner he chooses. ...using his own property. But not using Debian project resources. Raphael is among the most notable (visible) of all DD's, so why not? If he became a millionaire using flattr, why not? Why not create money where there wasn't? Why is the money topic so sensitive? I'm the sort of person who gets excited by seeing Release Managers get paid for their heroic work. For a simple reason, the DMUP [0]; which every user of Debian resources must follow. It says (in its introduction, point 1). * Don't use Debian Facilities for private financial gain The problem here is not about Raphael being allowed to become millionaire with flattr or not; it is about people using the Debian planet (which is Debian resources) for private financial gain. This has nothing to do with the money topic, but with the rules in place regarding the Debian machines. [0] http://debian.org/devel/dmup.en.html Debian Facilities - debian webserver -Planet- blog posts-flattr links ..- debian email server-email - email signature that links to: ...their personal webpage with paypal or flatter ...their business website both these can generate income. are they both potential DMUP violations? -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux ==.| http://kevix.myopenid.com..| | : :' : The Universal OS| mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/.| | `. `' http://www.debian.org/.| http://counter.li.org [#238656]| |___`-Unless I ask to be CCd,.assume I am subscribed._| -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2010123502.ga22...@horacrux
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 07:35:03AM -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 01:22:54PM +0100, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 02:44, Russ Allbery r...@debian.org wrote: Michael Gilbert michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com writes: Raphael has every right to attempt to pursue his field of endeavor in any tolerant/respectful manner he chooses. ...using his own property. But not using Debian project resources. Raphael is among the most notable (visible) of all DD's, so why not? If he became a millionaire using flattr, why not? Why not create money where there wasn't? Why is the money topic so sensitive? I'm the sort of person who gets excited by seeing Release Managers get paid for their heroic work. For a simple reason, the DMUP [0]; which every user of Debian resources must follow. It says (in its introduction, point 1). * Don't use Debian Facilities for private financial gain The problem here is not about Raphael being allowed to become millionaire with flattr or not; it is about people using the Debian planet (which is Debian resources) for private financial gain. This has nothing to do with the money topic, but with the rules in place regarding the Debian machines. [0] http://debian.org/devel/dmup.en.html Debian Facilities - debian webserver -Planet- blog posts-flattr links ..- debian email server-email - email signature that links to: ...their personal webpage with paypal or flatter ...their business website or mailing lists archives, for that matter. both these can generate income. are they both potential DMUP violations? I won't say anything about a DMUP violation, but surely the two things you mention should be treated equally. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2010123825.ga16...@glandium.org
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
Kevin Mark wrote: On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 01:22:54PM +0100, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: For a simple reason, the DMUP [0]; which every user of Debian resources must follow. It says (in its introduction, point 1). * Don't use Debian Facilities for private financial gain (…) Debian Facilities - debian webserver -Planet- blog posts-flattr links ..- debian email server-email - email signature that links to: ...their personal webpage with paypal or flatter ...their business website both these can generate income. are they both potential DMUP violations? Ha. At first I thought: damn, good argument. But after thinking of it a bit, I think there is one slight difference though: the use of Debian email servers does _not_ require the acknowledgement of the DMUP (anybody can send a mail transitioning trough Debian email servers, see e.g. the amounts of spam), where being syndicated on planet does (it is not possible to send spam to the planet without first getting the blog added to it by a DD), if I understand the issue correctly. So I'd say that emails are not under the scope of the DMUP, hence cannot be a violation of it. IMHO, huh… -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ibgrv5$m6...@dough.gmane.org
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 01:38:25PM +0100, Mike Hommey wrote: Debian Facilities - debian webserver -Planet- blog posts-flattr links ..- debian email server-email - email signature that links to: ...their personal webpage with paypal or flatter ...their business website or mailing lists archives, for that matter. both these can generate income. are they both potential DMUP violations? I won't say anything about a DMUP violation, but surely the two things you mention should be treated equally. I'm sorry, but refering to the *own* website (with whatever content) in an e-mail signature is different to linking from a debian.org website to a *foreign* *webservice* which does some stuff. At minimum the bad things are one more click away (if at all). Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2010134852.gc28...@an3as.eu
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 14:22, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud did...@raboud.com wrote: Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 02:44, Russ Allbery r...@debian.org wrote: Michael Gilbert michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com writes: Raphael has every right to attempt to pursue his field of endeavor in any tolerant/respectful manner he chooses. ...using his own property. But not using Debian project resources. Raphael is among the most notable (visible) of all DD's, so why not? If he became a millionaire using flattr, why not? Why not create money where there wasn't? Why is the money topic so sensitive? I'm the sort of person who gets excited by seeing Release Managers get paid for their heroic work. For a simple reason, the DMUP [0]; which every user of Debian resources must follow. It says (in its introduction, point 1). * Don't use Debian Facilities for private financial gain I'm sure this is just a guideline of course, else the following should be adhered to: Don't mention a book you've just written if that piece of writing will show up on Debian Planet, even if the book is about Debian. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktinmwanf3tdtktbhsshq9xjmmr0qmgvtmy-ua...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
Tshepang Lekhonkhobe tshep...@gmail.com writes: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud did...@raboud.com wrote: For a simple reason, the DMUP [0]; which every user of Debian resources must follow. It says (in its introduction, point 1). * Don't use Debian Facilities for private financial gain I'm sure this is just a guideline of course, else the following should be adhered to: Don't mention a book you've just written if that piece of writing will show up on Debian Planet, even if the book is about Debian. Indeed, and therefore there's already been a lot of discussion on this thread about how the boundary is fuzzy, we don't want to be too literal about it, some amount of incidental use is fine, and so forth. But because the boundary is fuzzy, that means we sometimes have to have these conversations, and it means that the topic is legitimate. I probably come to this from a slightly different perspective than some of the people here since I work for a non-profit educational institution, which has similar requirements around use of university facilities for personal gain for tax reasons. If someone at Stanford used Stanford computing facilities directly for personal financial gain, Stanford could get into serious trouble with the US government because it's a violation of our tax-free non-profit status. As you would expect, just like with the Debian systems, the boundary is fuzzy and complicated, and there's a lot of things that fall into a grey area (note, for example, that both Yahoo and Google started as student projects and originally ran on Stanford's network, but notice also that we kicked both of them off our network onto their own bandwidth long before they became companies). The university, like most places with this issue, has guidelines that allow for incidental use, where incidental is left open to a common-sense interpretation. But there's still a real rule there, and the university occasionally has to enforce it. I personally felt quite uncomfortable with hosting my web site, which as previously mentioned has some affiliate links to an on-line bookstore, on the Stanford network even though it was on my personal hardware, and felt much more comfortable about that once I moved my personal web site to my own VMs hosted elsewhere. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87hbfnn58b@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 19:24, Russ Allbery r...@debian.org wrote: Tshepang Lekhonkhobe tshep...@gmail.com writes: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud did...@raboud.com wrote: For a simple reason, the DMUP [0]; which every user of Debian resources must follow. It says (in its introduction, point 1). * Don't use Debian Facilities for private financial gain I'm sure this is just a guideline of course, else the following should be adhered to: Don't mention a book you've just written if that piece of writing will show up on Debian Planet, even if the book is about Debian. Indeed, and therefore there's already been a lot of discussion on this thread about how the boundary is fuzzy, we don't want to be too literal about it, some amount of incidental use is fine, and so forth. But because the boundary is fuzzy, that means we sometimes have to have these conversations, and it means that the topic is legitimate. I probably come to this from a slightly different perspective than some of the people here since I work for a non-profit educational institution, which has similar requirements around use of university facilities for personal gain for tax reasons. If someone at Stanford used Stanford computing facilities directly for personal financial gain, Stanford could get into serious trouble with the US government because it's a violation of our tax-free non-profit status. An attempt at an analogy: the worry with Stanford is legal issues with USA; the worry with Debian is that money can corrupt (undermines the volunteer foundation on which this great OS if founded upon) and gimme money icons are annoying to some? Just wanted to be clear. Anyway the arguments against flattr sway me towards them, but maybe that's not ok since Raphael, according to me, isn't at all abusing Debian project resources (and flattr is a great way to say thanks, and more meaningful than those words if you ask me). That little green button at the bottom of his posts isn't intrusive at all, and I am ever impressed by a person so bold to ask for financial support. Most others are embarassed, since money is so taboo. But I guess we have different opinions on what intrusive is. I personally dislike sites where you get an ads in the beginning or the middle of an article (such arrogance!), while someone else will find that okay, even sympathizing with author gotta eat. -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktinm3wsncj0pgbybw1mtdse57kj4ofb_xh�...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
Raphael Hertzog wrote: It's going to be a condorcet-based poll where you have to rank the following statements: I'm annoyed by Flattr buttons because * The picture catches the attention too much in a post which contains only text. * The picture allows Flattr to gather statistics about me. * Debian contributors should not make money from posts syndicated on planet. * I believe Flattr is a bad micro-donation system and it should not be promoted. * The button indirectly promotes a service run by a private company unrelated to Debian. * I don't share the concerns quoted below. (i.e. NOTA) * All of the above, which I personally endorse. Thanks -- ·''`. If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, : :' : come sit next to me - Alice Roosevelt Longworth `. `' `-Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux signature.asc Description: Digital signature
feedburner webbugs (was: Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?)
* Raphael Hertzog hert...@debian.org [2010-11-10 20:45:22 CET]: On Mon, 08 Nov 2010, Holger Levsen wrote: since a while, we see unsolicted commercial links and images on planet, mostly about flattr. So it's now clear that this thread is only about flattr buttons. Actually it started as that, but you brought up an IMHO more pressing issue that is bugging me: feedburner. This usage of webbugs is actually pretty nasty and I'd like to know the opinion of others on those. They are 1x1 invisible images that people put into their feeds explicitly for tracking purposes from what I can see. While we can give the benefit of doubt to flattr that they might (or might not) be using the information for tracking (which I actually consider rather unlikely given the background of the person who started flattr), feedburner's only purpose is for tracking, as I understand it. So long, Rhonda P.S. For the record, I created an index.planet feed (beside my regular index.rss feed) that I did submit to the planet config. Actually I'm astonished that it shouldn't be possible with any reasonable blogging engine to be able to add any links to only specific entries instead of to all of them. -- dholbach Last day of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek starting in 34 minutes in #ubuntu-classroom on irc.feenode.net * ScottK hands dholbach an r. Rhonda Are they fundraising again? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101110201812.ga6...@anguilla.debian.or.at
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
Hi Raphael On 10/11/2010 14:45, Raphael Hertzog wrote: On Mon, 08 Nov 2010, Holger Levsen wrote: since a while, we see unsolicted commercial links and images on planet, mostly about flattr. So it's now clear that this thread is only about flattr buttons. Quite a few people explained that they are (at varying level) annoyed by them. I would like to know _why_ those buttons annoy them. To get a clear feedback I'd like to setup a poll (with selectricity.org) so that people who have chosen to put those buttons can decide what to do (or not). It's going to be a condorcet-based poll where you have to rank the following statements: I'm annoyed by Flattr buttons because * The picture catches the attention too much in a post which contains only text. * The picture allows Flattr to gather statistics about me. * Debian contributors should not make money from posts syndicated on planet. * I believe Flattr is a bad micro-donation system and it should not be promoted. * The button indirectly promotes a service run by a private company unrelated to Debian. snip Are those sentences correctly representing your concerns? Are there other concerns to add? I'm not a Debian Developer, but I'm an avid follower of Planet Debian (I read *everything*) and the Debian Project itself. I think all of the above reasons are valid reasons to be annoyed by the flattr icons. I'd add that some posters might in some way try to 'guilt' readers into flattr'ing them, as in I went through all this effort in writing this post and I need money badly so you should really click on my flattr button!. There are many more subtle versions of that, but for me personally I find that one of the most annoying things about it. Having said that, I do see the 'fun' behind it. It's another tool to see what users like, what they might want to see more of. And it must be interesting measuring contributions over periods and whether people enjoy your posts more or less than before. I can see why many people would want to use it without even being interested in the few dollars it generates. Imho this is one of those areas where exploring all the shades of grey in between could be useful. -Jonathan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cdb0d26.8090...@ubuntu.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 23:22, Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) jonat...@ubuntu.com wrote: Hi Raphael On 10/11/2010 14:45, Raphael Hertzog wrote: On Mon, 08 Nov 2010, Holger Levsen wrote: since a while, we see unsolicted commercial links and images on planet, mostly about flattr. So it's now clear that this thread is only about flattr buttons. Quite a few people explained that they are (at varying level) annoyed by them. I would like to know _why_ those buttons annoy them. To get a clear feedback I'd like to setup a poll (with selectricity.org) so that people who have chosen to put those buttons can decide what to do (or not). It's going to be a condorcet-based poll where you have to rank the following statements: I'm annoyed by Flattr buttons because * The picture catches the attention too much in a post which contains only text. * The picture allows Flattr to gather statistics about me. * Debian contributors should not make money from posts syndicated on planet. * I believe Flattr is a bad micro-donation system and it should not be promoted. * The button indirectly promotes a service run by a private company unrelated to Debian. snip Are those sentences correctly representing your concerns? Are there other concerns to add? I'm not a Debian Developer, but I'm an avid follower of Planet Debian (I read *everything*) and the Debian Project itself. I think all of the above reasons are valid reasons to be annoyed by the flattr icons. I'd add that some posters might in some way try to 'guilt' readers into flattr'ing them, as in I went through all this effort in writing this post and I need money badly so you should really click on my flattr button!. There are many more subtle versions of that, but for me personally I find that one of the most annoying things about it. I am so grateful for FLOSS that I happily joined flattr, since it was such a great way to express thanks, and thanks to Raphael for that. I can't wait for more FLOSS workers to embrace it. Anyways, you should not complain when someone asks you to give them money, even if it results in you feeling guilty for not complying. Why not just ignore it like you ignore all those beggars on the road (EG, block Raphael's feed). I OTOH am glad when someone asks for it. It encourages me to give, and I admire someone who fights against the shame normally associated with asking for money, and BTW minimum amount flattr requires you to give per month is a mere 8 euros anyways. Come on! -- blog: http://tshepang.tumblr.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/aanlktikptyqvjeq8sp9ouk70-p3swtap7gec3tpmt...@mail.gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
Tshepang Lekhonkhobe tshep...@gmail.com writes: Anyways, you should not complain when someone asks you to give them money, even if it results in you feeling guilty for not complying. I respectfully disagree. Depending on the context and the situation, I may consider someone asking me to give them money to be intrusive and obnoxious, and I reserve the right to complain when it happens in shared public space. I'll also say, as a general point, that most sentences that start with you should not that concern standards of interpersonal ethics such as this one are on very shaky ground. They're culture-dependent, unlikely to be universal, and not very likely to change anyone's behavior. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8739r8q1vh@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:56:18 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: Tshepang Lekhonkhobe tshep...@gmail.com writes: Anyways, you should not complain when someone asks you to give them money, even if it results in you feeling guilty for not complying. I respectfully disagree. Depending on the context and the situation, I may consider someone asking me to give them money to be intrusive and obnoxious, and I reserve the right to complain when it happens in shared public space. You can complain all you want (a valid expression of your freedom of speech), but you have no right to restrict others' freedom of the same. If you find particular words annoying, feel free to exercise your own freedom to ignore them, but don't impose restrictions based on your own preferences. Raphael has every right to attempt to pursue his field of endeavor in any tolerant/respectful manner he chooses. Let him experiment. The only legitimate argument I've seen in this thread is the privacy concern. Since flattr, and of course any other external site, has the ability to collect browsing habits without click throughs (a privacy violation), all external content should be blocked, as mentioned previously. Of course, that creates a new problem; desired content is obstructed as well. Then again a quick and easy solution is to duplicate that lost content directly on the planet server. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101110193639.9d02f450.michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
Dear Raphaël and everybody, While I also share some skepticism about Flatter, I would like to underline that the posts on Planet that contain a Flatter button tend to be more about free software than the others in general. I am much more annoyed by family albums for instance, and large pictures in general, because then the whole screen is taken by one post, and it becomes sometimes necessary to scroll a lot to get to the next one. In comparison, the Flatter button does not each much space. Since planet.debian.org is on the menu for the general redesign of our web pages (http://wiki.debian.org/KallesDesign), one solution would be to provide to the bloggers a way to mitigate the footprint of all the buttons via CSS. The one thing that I find difficult to accept is the use of tracers. I expect debian.org sites to not contain them, nor to use javascript and cookies when avoidable. I am also a bit worried that a poll would exacerbate the disagreements rather than bring a consensus. And in conclusion, I would like to remind the extraordinary success of non-free software on the iPhone, which I think can be explained by the easiness of micropayement through the Apple webstore. Flattr and its uses have a lot of shortcomings, but go in the direction of a strong need for our communauty. By rejecting it I think that we do not help to create the conditions for the appearance of a better alternative plaform. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2010004356.gb5...@merveille.plessy.net
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
Michael Gilbert michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com writes: On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:56:18 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: I respectfully disagree. Depending on the context and the situation, I may consider someone asking me to give them money to be intrusive and obnoxious, and I reserve the right to complain when it happens in shared public space. You can complain all you want (a valid expression of your freedom of speech), but you have no right to restrict others' freedom of the same. But, in fact, I do, because this is happening on a project machine, and I am a voting Debian Developer. Raphael has every right to attempt to pursue his field of endeavor in any tolerant/respectful manner he chooses. ...using his own property. But not using Debian project resources. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87sjz8lme9@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
Russ Allbery r...@debian.org writes: Michael Gilbert michael.s.gilb...@gmail.com writes: On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 13:56:18 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: I respectfully disagree. Depending on the context and the situation, I may consider someone asking me to give them money to be intrusive and obnoxious, and I reserve the right to complain when it happens in shared public space. You can complain all you want (a valid expression of your freedom of speech), but you have no right to restrict others' freedom of the same. But, in fact, I do, because this is happening on a project machine, and I am a voting Debian Developer. Raphael has every right to attempt to pursue his field of endeavor in any tolerant/respectful manner he chooses. ...using his own property. But not using Debian project resources. Incidentally, I want to clarify what I'm saying in this whole subthread, because this subthread is drifting into a meta-discussion about whether or not people are allowed to complain. I'm *not* saying that Raphael is violating the Debian usage policy, nor am I saying that I want him to stop doing anything. I actually haven't made up my mind, and if folks recall, my original statement of personal preference at the start of this thread is actually much weaker than our existing usage policy (our usage policy should take precedent over that opinion). I'm also not saying that I'm in favor of a GR or anything on this topic. However, what I am saying is that this idea that people should not complain, or the even more strongly expressed opinion from Michael Gilbert that this is some sort of free speech issue, is nonsense. Planet Debian is a Debian project resource run on project systems by the DSA team, which means that Debian project members do indeed get to have a say on what content is acceptable for it. We do have a right to complain, as members of the project whose resources are being used to carry this content. Free speech principals don't imply that the project is required to allow its resources to be used for anything anyone wishes to use them for. We *do* have a clear project usage policy saying that project resources may not be used for personal commercial gain. People who want to make sweeping statements about free speech need to make sure that those beliefs are relevant in the presence of that usage policy, or need to realize that they're arguing for throwing out our usage policy (which is a much broader change than anyone's mentioned on this thread). -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87iq04llp9@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 04:59:14PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote: However, what I am saying is that this idea that people should not complain, or the even more strongly expressed opinion from Michael Gilbert that this is some sort of free speech issue, is nonsense. Planet Debian is a Debian project resource run on project systems by the DSA team, which means that Debian project members do indeed get to have a say on what content is acceptable for it. We do have a right to complain, as members of the project whose resources are being used to carry this content. Free speech principals don't imply that the project is required to allow its resources to be used for anything anyone wishes to use them for. Definitely. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com liw everything I know about UK hotels I learned from Fawlty Towers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2010010148.ga4...@einval.com
