Re: Recruitment of young contributors (Re: Young people and computers)
Hi, On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 12:16:41AM +, Moray Allan wrote: On 2013-02-09 21:46, Filipus Klutiero wrote: [..] and the only data above simply shows the age of members. The graph is nice, but it doesn't show the age of members at the time they are recruited, and even less how that age changes with time. If we actually have such data, I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one to appreciate. I agree that it would be more interesting to see a graph of the average age of new DDs over time. It ought to be possible to get an approximation of that by merging birthday data from db.debian.org with joining date data from nm.debian.org, though both of those data sets are incomplete. Without the numbers, my impression, shared with others, is that the age of new DDs has increased somewhat, as well as the average age of DDs increasing just from DDs getting older (but not quickly retiring from Debian). http://people.debian.org/~spaillard/developers-age-histogramm/ actually also contains historical data. Fortunately, it also shows the average age increases slower than time: over 2012 (12 months so), average age increased by 2.7 months only. Consider the figures below with caution, as it's computed from rounded to year data, hence the big jump at year transition. 2010-04-11 mean = 33.1036 2011-03-19 mean = 34.0884 2011-05-13 mean = 34.0711 2011-06-01 mean = 34.107 2011-07-01 mean = 34.107 2011-08-01 mean = 34.0982 2011-09-01 mean = 34.0963 2011-10-01 mean = 34.0879 2011-11-01 mean = 34.1322 2011-12-01 mean = 34.112 2012-01-01 mean = 35.1168 2012-02-01 mean = 35.0846 2012-03-01 mean = 35.1131 2012-04-01 mean = 35.0561 2012-05-01 mean = 35.0864 2012-06-01 mean = 35.0668 2012-07-01 mean = 35.0569 2012-08-01 mean = 35.052 2012-09-01 mean = 34.9782 2012-10-01 mean = 34.969 2012-11-01 mean = 34.9706 2012-12-01 mean = 34.8928 2013-01-01 mean = 35.8746 2013-02-01 mean = 35.8918 -- Simon Paillard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130218092617.gk17...@glenfiddich.mraw.org
Re: Recruitment of young contributors (Re: Young people and computers)
On 2013-02-18 09:26, Simon Paillard wrote: On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 12:16:41AM +, Moray Allan wrote: Without the numbers, my impression, shared with others, is that the age of new DDs has increased somewhat, as well as the average age of DDs increasing just from DDs getting older (but not quickly retiring from Debian). http://people.debian.org/~spaillard/developers-age-histogramm/ actually also contains historical data. Right, but only back to March 2011, and one entry for 2010. I was thinking of a rather longer time-frame here. https://nm.debian.org/public/people mostly shows data back to 2000, which would be long enough to be interesting. -- Moray -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/a8c841d6bc9559283872088eefd62...@www.morayallan.com
Re: Recruitment of young contributors (Re: Young people and computers)
On 2013-02-09 21:46, Filipus Klutiero wrote: How much of what? Your question may be interesting, but I don't know what discussion you're referring to Yes, it wasn't somewhere publicly archived -- that's why I thought it interesting to provide a summary. and the only data above simply shows the age of members. The graph is nice, but it doesn't show the age of members at the time they are recruited, and even less how that age changes with time. If we actually have such data, I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one to appreciate. I agree that it would be more interesting to see a graph of the average age of new DDs over time. It ought to be possible to get an approximation of that by merging birthday data from db.debian.org with joining date data from nm.debian.org, though both of those data sets are incomplete. Without the numbers, my impression, shared with others, is that the age of new DDs has increased somewhat, as well as the average age of DDs increasing just from DDs getting older (but not quickly retiring from Debian). -- Moray -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/7df4bce7897e293cb1485d2765010...@www.morayallan.com
Recruitment of young contributors (Re: Young people and computers)
Hi Moray, Moray Allan wrote: There's been some discussion elsewhere about how young people's experience of computers has changed over the years, and how this might interact with our success in recruiting young people into Debian. I would estimate that the conversation focused on 16-20 year-olds, as it started after someone pointed to the graph of developers' claimed ages at http://people.debian.org/~spaillard/developers-age-histogramm/devs-age-histo.2013-01-01.png http://people.debian.org/%7Espaillard/developers-age-histogramm/devs-age-histo.2013-01-01.png A few points from that discussion (not trying to be an exhaustive summary): - The conversation wondered how much the number of younger people coming to Debian might have reduced due to changes in wider computer use/culture. Certainly, programming languages used to be an advertised part of the system, where now they are typically an optional add-on, hidden, or effectively unavailable to the users of certain types of device. - It was also pointed out that we have several groups of Debian contributors who came from successful local projects, e.g. university computer groups. It seems that many such university groups themselves recruit fewer new members than they used to, so the change may not only be that Debian gets fewer of the people trained in them. (One factor mentioned for their own recruitment trouble was that many students have less reason than a few years ago to spend time around computer labs.) - Another factor that makes a difference to how young people spend their time on computers may be the availability of always-on internet access. I know that, once I had a computer at home, but before I had any kind of internet connection there, I started to do programming projects to fill in my school holidays; perhaps nowadays I would have spent the time chatting online, or using the computer to collaborate on something productive other than programming. - A change mentioned that might be more positive is that it's now much easier to get programs distributed to people who will find them useful. While we might not like app stores etc. and the typical lack of source code, this still gives people a greater motivation to create software (including a greater chance that it will reach others who need something to solve the same problem) than existed for most amateur programmers before. If you agree, as I would, that it's useful for Debian to recruit more young people -- they often have a lot of spare time, and a lot of enthusiasm, and good connections to influence and recruit others who might be interested in helping -- then what do you think Debian could do differently to encourage this? How much do you think is due to general factors like those above, and how much due to changes in Debian and in how it's perceived? How much of what? Your question may be interesting, but I don't know what discussion you're referring to and the only data above simply shows the age of members. The graph is nice, but it doesn't show the age of members at the time they are recruited, and even less how that age changes with time. If we actually have such data, I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one to appreciate.
Re: Young people and computers
If you agree, as I would, that it's useful for Debian to recruit more young people -- they often have a lot of spare time, and a lot of enthusiasm, and good connections to influence and recruit others who might be interested in helping -- then what do you think Debian could do differently to encourage this? How much do you think is due to general factors like those above, and how much due to changes in Debian and in how it's perceived? -- Moray I think Debian is doing a great job. I don't think the problem is with Debian methods, but instead with the younger generation themselves. I can only speak for what I have observed in my own country and state, but I fear the problem may extend well beyond. I live in Texas, USA and the kids here learn from an early age to be totally distracted (in a bad way) by the digital gadgetry and mindless media channels that surrounds them in all aspects of their lives. It seems there is now little time or desire by them to be curious or interested in anything that requires one to think critically or exert efforts. Why is this happening?.. hard to say.. but it will eventually lead to a total disconnect from community based projects like Debian/Linux, etc. Can it be turned around?.. probably not. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5110dca5.5000...@accesslab.com
Re: Young people and computers
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 09:23:54PM -0800, Ben Pfaff wrote: Now, it seems to be a long and comparatively difficult process that involves demonstrating a relatively high level of technical competence. I wonder whether young people find this intimidating. I do not want to discuss the need for proving technical skills (which is IMHO evident) but rather like to stress the fact that it is also some proof of the person to be engaged and dedicated to some project to spend enough time into it to gather the needed knowledge. If you look at http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMed/Developers those DDs who injected yes in the column DD because Debian Med exists you find examples of people who in the first place were not considered to become Debian developers but were given a certain reason to learn all the stuff needed to build packages. In outher words: If you have a strong reason to join Debian you *will* require the high level of technical competence. Inside the Debian Med team this intend is supported by the Mentoring of Month[1] effort. In short: I do not think that the technical requirements are a blocker for young people. It is rather a selection according engagement of people. Kind regards Andreas. [1] http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMed/MoM -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130202140841.gc24...@an3as.eu
Re: Young people and computers
Moray Allan mo...@sermisy.org writes: There's been some discussion elsewhere about how young people's experience of computers has changed over the years, and how this might interact with our success in recruiting young people into Debian. I would estimate that the conversation focused on 16-20 year-olds, as it started after someone pointed to the graph of developers' claimed ages at http://people.debian.org/~spaillard/developers-age-histogramm/devs-age-histo.2013-01-01.png I joined Debian when I was a teenager, half a lifetime ago for me. Then, it was easy: you generated a PGP key (gnupg did not yet exist) and emailed it to Bruce Perens, and he gave you an account. Now, it seems to be a long and comparatively difficult process that involves demonstrating a relatively high level of technical competence. I wonder whether young people find this intimidating. (I didn't see the other discussion, so I don't know whether this point has been raised before. Apologies if I'm rehashing a point.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87sj5ghaj9@blp.benpfaff.org
Re: Young people and computers
Hi, just stumbled upon some quite related article http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/3158 which sounds like a good step. In a German news article[1] you can read that teachers union is not amused about this hardware donation because it is considered plain advertising for the company donating the hardware but IMHO it is the right way to go. (Formerly those teachers did not blame the software company that usually donates software to schools ...) Kind regards Andreas. [1] http://www.heise.de/hardware-hacks/meldung/UK-Google-spendet-15-000-Raspberry-Pis-fuer-Schulen-1794017.html -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130130131113.ga1...@an3as.eu
Re: Young people and computers
Moray Allan dijo [Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 02:40:36PM +]: There's been some discussion elsewhere about how young people's experience of computers has changed over the years, and how this might interact with our success in recruiting young people into Debian. I would estimate that the conversation focused on 16-20 year-olds, as it started after someone pointed to the graph of developers' claimed ages at http://people.debian.org/~spaillard/developers-age-histogramm/devs-age-histo.2013-01-01.png And the discussion (both what was already discussed and what can surely be added to it) is most interesting. As an extra data point, it's not only us: In magazines such as ACM's Communications the fact that matriculation for Computer Science (and, in general, computer-related studies) is shrinking is a recurring topic, and finding how to motivate kids to get interested in computing is a hot topic. I would say industry-wide, but no, industry does not look so far ahead :) But at least in the academy. - The conversation wondered how much the number of younger people coming to Debian might have reduced due to changes in wider computer use/culture. Certainly, programming languages used to be an advertised part of the system, where now they are typically an optional add-on, hidden, or effectively unavailable to the users of certain types of device. Right, but... What was the last computer (or operating system) that was sold with a list of compilers as a selling point? That argument is IMO at least 20 years stale. - It was also pointed out that we have several groups of Debian contributors who came from successful local projects, e.g. university computer groups. It seems that many such university groups themselves recruit fewer new members than they used to, so the change may not only be that Debian gets fewer of the people trained in them. (One factor mentioned for their own recruitment trouble was that many students have less reason than a few years ago to spend time around computer labs.) Right, this was one of the points a now-fellow teacher greeted me with when welcoming me to teaching some days ago: The Engineering Faculty of our university used to have a very active Free Software Research and Development Laboratory. Yes, the name is a bit too grandiloquent WRT the group's real tasks, but it was anyway an important group for passing the word on free software, and there were even some interesting projects. They tell me the group is currently empty, although we still have a cubicule for it. I hope we can revive the group - and maybe get some future developers from it. - Another factor that makes a difference to how young people spend their time on computers may be the availability of always-on internet access. I know that, once I had a computer at home, but before I had any kind of internet connection there, I started to do programming projects to fill in my school holidays; perhaps nowadays I would have spent the time chatting online, or using the computer to collaborate on something productive other than programming. And your home computer surely gave you better ways of engaging than a dumbphone does nowadays. Getting connected basically means consuming information or sharing lolcatz, or chatting. It is much harder (in my perception, which is anti-phone skewed) to jump from the wow, I wonder how this is done to peeking at the piece of code in a phone, even if it runs mostly free software, than on a traditional desktop. - A change mentioned that might be more positive is that it's now much easier to get programs distributed to people who will find them useful. While we might not like app stores etc. and the typical lack of source code, this still gives people a greater motivation to create software (including a greater chance that it will reach others who need something to solve the same problem) than existed for most amateur programmers before. Humh, somewhat, yes and no... Before app-stores were the norm, getting non-free software was much more a PITA. Finding the right dealer with the right evaluation copy of the required program, trying it on the computer and so on... Made me laugh quite a number of times. For me it's been many years that apt-get solves 99% of my program needs. And for the missing 1%, there were always a good number of sites (i.e. Freshmeat, Sourceforge) to search in. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130129225824.gp39...@gwolf.org
Re: Young people and computers
Gunnar Wolf gw...@gwolf.org writes: And your home computer surely gave you better ways of engaging than a dumbphone does nowadays. Getting connected basically means consuming information or sharing lolcatz, or chatting. It is much harder (in my perception, which is anti-phone skewed) to jump from the wow, I wonder how this is done to peeking at the piece of code in a phone, even if it runs mostly free software, than on a traditional desktop. This is sort of true, but a lot of mobile phone apps are actually web pages, and the web is the one bit of commercial programming where you can still look at other people's source to some extent. Also, a lot of the services like Twitter provide web services APIs; still not great from a free software perspective, but it means that you can build little apps around the service to do things you want. I get the impression that a lot of people are starting programming that way: building little bits of code to wrap Twitter or Facebook APIs to do little automated things they want to do. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87halzr0ib@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Young people and computers
On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 02:40:36PM +, Moray Allan wrote: There's been some discussion elsewhere about how young people's experience of computers has changed over the years, and how this might interact with our success in recruiting young people into Debian. I would estimate that the conversation focused on 16-20 year-olds, as it started after someone pointed to the graph of developers' claimed ages at http://people.debian.org/~spaillard/developers-age-histogramm/devs-age-histo.2013-01-01.png I know that this is somehow unrelated, but this graph is obviously wrong. No debian developer is less than 10, some ldap records must be wrong. I guess that some people should have noted the date where they entered debian in the birthday field instead of the day they were born. As for the rest of your email, I'm working in an french high school that forms IT engineers. I'll see if I can bootstrap something there in that direction. Bye, Mt. -- Your contribution is so trivial that somebody must have published this somewhere already. -- Bastard Reviewer From Hell -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130127130017.ga22...@alphonse.loria.fr
Re: Young people and computers
On 2013-01-26 14:40, Moray Allan wrote: - The conversation wondered how much the number of younger people coming to Debian might have reduced due to changes in wider computer use/culture. Certainly, programming languages used to be an advertised part of the system, where now they are typically an optional add-on, hidden, or effectively unavailable to the users of certain types of device. To add myself as an example for the point about programming: My own programming experience started in the 1980s, on proprietary Acorn systems. I was perhaps influenced to think about programming because the earlier 8-bit systems booted straight into a BASIC interpreter by default, though it's hard to know -- I think I started programming in school classes, doing simple shape-drawing programs in Logo. Either way, programming was what the computers were presented as being primarily for. I got interested, and started to teach myself more, by experimentation and by reading books. When the school moved to 32-bit machines that booted into a GUI, a BASIC interpreter was still part of the advertised system. Although even the software called public domain was under proprietary licences, a lot of it, as well as some commercial software, was written in BASIC and had source code that could easily be read and changed. Later on, I also disassembled parts of the base operating system, which could be followed more easily than otherwise because they had been hand-written rather compiled. (And, don't worry, I learnt more programming languages, including buying the expensive C compiler.) Although I gained a lot of useless knowledge about now-irrelevant proprietary systems from all this, I also learnt a lot about computers and programming, and more fundamentally learnt to think about computers as something you used for programming, not just devices with a set of unchangeable tools provided. -- Moray -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/159e9e409e12bf6aa5ca921c82212...@www.morayallan.com
