Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Ian Jackson]

Mehdi Dogguy writes ("Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash"):
> On 2015-12-02 02:35, Paul Wise wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 6:23 AM, Mehdi Dogguy wrote:
> >> Indeed. And instead of simply adding blog posts, the project may make
> >> an official public statement about it.
> > 
> > The publicity team and associated folks posted these when the campaign 
> > began.
> > 
> > https://identi.ca/debian/note/hPj5AtNkQxGfsgI9upgBWA
> > https://twitter.com/debian/status/669070470180917248
> > https://quitter.se/notice/4232532
> > 
> > Were you thinking of something in a different Debian information
> > stream (like press releases, DPN, bits.d.o, DevNews etc)?
> 
> I was thinking about something like a press release or bits.d.o, yes.

I would like that.  There is material in this thread (eg my own
original posting) that could be cribbed from to make a suitable press
release.

I'm sure mjg59 wouldn't mind us stealing bits of what he's written:
  http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/38992.html
(although checking with him would be polite).

How can we make this happen ?  How can I help ?

An alternative route would be for someone to propose a GR.  But it
seems like it would be foolish to ask everyone to vote on something
when we have such a consensus.

(FTR I won't pursue my suggestion that Debian should give Conservancy
(more) money.  I still think that would be a good idea, but I want to
press forward with proposals that have a broad consensus.)

Ian.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Ana Guerrero Lopez]

On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 11:49:17AM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Mehdi Dogguy writes ("Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash"):
> > On 2015-12-02 02:35, Paul Wise wrote:
> > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 6:23 AM, Mehdi Dogguy wrote:
> > >> Indeed. And instead of simply adding blog posts, the project may make
> > >> an official public statement about it.
> > > 
> > > The publicity team and associated folks posted these when the campaign 
> > > began.
> > > 
> > > https://identi.ca/debian/note/hPj5AtNkQxGfsgI9upgBWA
> > > https://twitter.com/debian/status/669070470180917248
> > > https://quitter.se/notice/4232532
> > > 
> > > Were you thinking of something in a different Debian information
> > > stream (like press releases, DPN, bits.d.o, DevNews etc)?
> > 
> > I was thinking about something like a press release or bits.d.o, yes.
> 
> I would like that.  There is material in this thread (eg my own
> original posting) that could be cribbed from to make a suitable press
> release.
> 
> I'm sure mjg59 wouldn't mind us stealing bits of what he's written:
>   http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/38992.html
> (although checking with him would be polite).
> 
> How can we make this happen ?  How can I help ?

>From Debian, we already published:
https://bits.debian.org/2015/12/conservancy-fundraising-campaign.html

Submitted by Mehdi.

Ana

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Ian Jackson]

Ana Guerrero Lopez writes ("Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash"):
> From Debian, we already published:
> https://bits.debian.org/2015/12/conservancy-fundraising-campaign.html
> 
> Submitted by Mehdi.

That's good (sorry not to have checked for it), thanks to Mehdi. Would
a press release too be good ?

Ian.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Daniel Pocock]

On 01/12/15 15:17, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Dec 2015, Ian Jackson wrote:
>> Could Debian as a project sign up ?  Conservancy is a 503(c), like
>> SPI, so perhaps we in Debian could commit a modest regular funding
>> stream to Conservancy.
> 
> +1
> 
> We have troubles finding good use of our money. This one should not
> cause any problem to anyone.
> 

Keeping some money in savings is a good use for money, even if it
doesn't seem like it.  Having a little bit more than needed in reserve
is always better than having a little bit less than needed.  If reserves
were too low then there would be extra stress for people whenever making
decisions about money and at some point that becomes counter-productive.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Daniel Pocock]

(re-sent without attachment)

On 01/12/15 15:36, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 03:17:33PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
>> Let's give them a part of our money for the service they do us by
>> enforcing the GPL for Debian developers.
> 
> We already pay for those services. There is a forfait amount of money
> that Debian pays to Conservancy per year (1000 USD, IIRC), which
> corresponds to a forfait amount of lawyer hours that Conservancy give to
> Debian per year. If any enforcement (or other legal) action will require
> more than those hours, Conservancy will bill Debian for the extra time.
> 
> If we want to donate to Conservancy, it should be on a different basis
> than paying for the services we get from them, because those are
> regulated on a contractual basis.
> 

As mentioned elsewhere, there is more than one way to skin a cat

Many companies purchase legal insurance to cover contract disputes, bad
debts, employee disputes and not surprisingly, copyright disputes.  I
had a brief look around at Swiss insurers and the first one I found is
offering 150,000 CHF sum insured for copyright law (see policy[1] PDF,
page 11, point 7).  On page 3 it suggests this sum insured is per-case,
not per-year.  The insurer also takes care of other things, for example,
if a case is lost and the other party claims their legal costs, the
developer won't be bankrupted as the insurance would pay for that too. I
wrote to Conservancy and asked if they have similar protection in place
and I haven't yet received a reply.  The insurer also provides an advice
helpline (see page 8).

I sent the insurer an email specifically asking if they would have
covered the VMware lawsuit.

So while people are free to give money to Conservancy and I'm sure they
are doing great work, it is not the only option and maybe we even need
to consider a combination of different options to have the maximum
probability of success in the long term.

One solution that comes to mind is for debian.ch (which is incorporated
as an association under Swiss law) to apply for an insurance policy such
as this one and for developers who like this idea to grant or assign
their copyright to debian.ch.

Another option is for Conservancy to work with some insurance companies
like this rather than trying to fund the legal costs from donations.
Then the money that people do donate to Conservancy could be used for
other purposes.

Yet another solution may be for Debian or Conservancy to negotiate with
an insurance company to get insurance policies designed for free
software developers.  Then developers can buy the insurance personally.

One limitation of legal insurance is the waiting period (90 days from
policy commencement).  If anybody discovers and publicizes another abuse
of copyright / GPL before the insurance has been purchased and the 90
days passed, the insurer may not accept the case.


1. http://paste.debian.net/plain/340540

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 03:58:07PM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 03:52:35PM +0100, Jakub Wilk wrote:
> > >We already pay for those services. There is a forfait amount of money that
> > >Debian pays to Conservancy per year (1000 USD, IIRC), which corresponds to
> > >a forfait amount of lawyer hours that Conservancy give to Debian per year.
> > 
> > What does "forfait" mean?
> 
> Oops, sorry.
> I realized too late the expression doesn't work in English :)
> 
> It means we pay that sum per year, and we have pre-allocated to us a
> given amount of lawyer hours each year. If we use more, the difference
> is billed to us.

If you use less, is the difference refunded? :)

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Mehdi Dogguy]

On 2015-12-02 02:35, Paul Wise wrote:

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 6:23 AM, Mehdi Dogguy wrote:


Indeed. And instead of simply adding blog posts, the project may make
an official public statement about it.


The publicity team and associated folks posted these when the campaign 
began.


https://identi.ca/debian/note/hPj5AtNkQxGfsgI9upgBWA
https://twitter.com/debian/status/669070470180917248
https://quitter.se/notice/4232532

Were you thinking of something in a different Debian information
stream (like press releases, DPN, bits.d.o, DevNews etc)?


I was thinking about something like a press release or bits.d.o, yes.

--
Mehdi

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 11:44:34AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> I thought we paid a retainer to the Software Freedom Law Center, not the
> Software Freedom Conservancy.  Am I confused?

I'm not aware of any retainer paid to Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC)
directly by Debian. SFLC is Debian's lawyer "transitively", via the
services that they offer to SPI's affiliated projects. It might be the
case that SPI's pay legal services to SFLC, but I really don't know.

Cheers.
-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli  . . . . . . .  z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o
Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o
Former Debian Project Leader . . . . . @zacchiro . . . . o o o . . . o .
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Mehdi Dogguy]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi,

On 01/12/2015 15:36, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> So if Debian really wants to help Conservancy, promoting their 
> current campaign for individual memberships would be a very useful 
> thing to do.
> 

Indeed. And instead of simply adding blog posts, the project may make
an official public statement about it.

- -- 
Mehdi
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2
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=pI6/
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Clint Adams]

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 09:04:28PM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> I'm not aware of any retainer paid to Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC)
> directly by Debian. SFLC is Debian's lawyer "transitively", via the
> services that they offer to SPI's affiliated projects. It might be the
> case that SPI's pay legal services to SFLC, but I really don't know.

I don't believe that SPI has ever paid for legal advice, to SFLC or
otherwise.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Paul Wise]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 6:23 AM, Mehdi Dogguy wrote:

> Indeed. And instead of simply adding blog posts, the project may make
> an official public statement about it.

The publicity team and associated folks posted these when the campaign began.

https://identi.ca/debian/note/hPj5AtNkQxGfsgI9upgBWA
https://twitter.com/debian/status/669070470180917248
https://quitter.se/notice/4232532

Were you thinking of something in a different Debian information
stream (like press releases, DPN, bits.d.o, DevNews etc)?

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Paul Wise]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:48 AM, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

> It might be a little more complicated than that given our own 501(c)
> status, I think (but I am no longer a lawyer end never was an American
> tax lawyer.

Debian has no legal status, perhaps you are thinking of SPI?

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Ian Jackson]

Stefano Zacchiroli writes ("Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash"):
> On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 03:52:35PM +0100, Jakub Wilk wrote:
> > What does "forfait" mean?
...
> It means we pay that sum per year, and we have pre-allocated to us a
> given amount of lawyer hours each year. If we use more, the difference
> is billed to us.

FYI this is called a `retainer' in English.

Ian.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Joel W. Shea]

On Wed, Dec 02, 2015 at 09:35:26AM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 6:23 AM, Mehdi Dogguy wrote:
> 
> > Indeed. And instead of simply adding blog posts, the project may make
> > an official public statement about it.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Were you thinking of something in a different Debian information
> stream (like press releases, DPN, bits.d.o, DevNews etc)?

Would it also be worth mentioning on the donations page? [1]

Something along the lines of "since you value free software, you may
also consider donating to these organisations.", including links to
Software Freedom Conservancy, et.al.

[1] https://www.debian.org/donations


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Russ Allbery]

Stefano Zacchiroli  writes:

> We already pay for those services. There is a forfait amount of money
> that Debian pays to Conservancy per year (1000 USD, IIRC), which
> corresponds to a forfait amount of lawyer hours that Conservancy give to
> Debian per year. If any enforcement (or other legal) action will require
> more than those hours, Conservancy will bill Debian for the extra time.

I thought we paid a retainer to the Software Freedom Law Center, not the
Software Freedom Conservancy.  Am I confused?

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 01:17:53PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> As reported here:
>   https://sfconservancy.org/supporter/
> 
> Conservancy is an amazingly good thing.  They are the only
> organisation doing GPL enforcement for non-FSF projects.  They are
> facing financial problems because one of their major donors has
> withdrawn.  Conservancy's determination to make the GPL stick, by
> lawsuit if necessary, is not popular amongst rich corporates.
> 
> I have just signed up.  I think any Debian contributor who believes in
> copyleft, and can afford it, should probably sign up too.
> 

Signed up yesterday to take advantage of the anonymous offer for matched
funds for several subscriptions :)

> If, like me, you work on copylefted software in your day job, or you
> hope to do so in the future, the GPL is for you not just an important
> tool to help change the world, but also an assurance of your personal
> autonomy.
> 
> 
> Could Debian as a project sign up ?  Conservancy is a 503(c), like
> SPI, so perhaps we in Debian could commit a modest regular funding
> stream to Conservancy.
> 

It might be a little more complicated than that given our own 501(c)
status, I think (but I am no longer a lawyer end never was an American
tax lawyer.

> Debian depends heavily on GPL'd software and most of the
> Debian-specific tools we have written over the years are copyleft.  We
> depend on our copyleft being enforced to ensure that all users of
> Debian (including users of Debian derivatives) have the freedoms that
> our community (and our Social Contract) promise.
> 
> Debian's presence in the list of sponsors would be valuable as an
> example, too.
> 

But everybody already knows we care about Free software 

All the very best to all,

AndyC

> 
> Ian.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Paul Wise]

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:42 PM, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 01:17:53PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
>> Conservancy is an amazingly good thing.  They are the only
>> organisation doing GPL enforcement for non-FSF projects.
> Where can I read some examples about this?

Their supporter page lists their 2015 successes:

https://sfconservancy.org/supporter/

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 03:17:33PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> Let's give them a part of our money for the service they do us by
> enforcing the GPL for Debian developers.

We already pay for those services. There is a forfait amount of money
that Debian pays to Conservancy per year (1000 USD, IIRC), which
corresponds to a forfait amount of lawyer hours that Conservancy give to
Debian per year. If any enforcement (or other legal) action will require
more than those hours, Conservancy will bill Debian for the extra time.

If we want to donate to Conservancy, it should be on a different basis
than paying for the services we get from them, because those are
regulated on a contractual basis.

FWIW, I'm a conservancy supporter and also a testimonial for their
current fund raising campaign. But I'm against "transitive donations" of
money that Debian received as donations to other charitable initiatives
because, e.g., there is no reasonable guarantee that the goals of
Conservancy align well with the reasons why the initial donor gave money
to Debian.

Also, in this specific case, I don't think that significant one-shot
donations is what Conservancy needs the most in the current situation
(even though of course I don't and can't speak for the organization).
What they need is to build a significant basis of individual supporters
that will, on average, remain supporters in the long term.

So if Debian really wants to help Conservancy, promoting their current
campaign for individual memberships would be a very useful thing to do.

Cheers.
-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli  . . . . . . .  z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o
Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o
Former Debian Project Leader . . . . . @zacchiro . . . . o o o . . . o .
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Ian Jackson]

Andrey Rahmatullin writes ("Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash"):
> On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 01:17:53PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > Conservancy is an amazingly good thing.  They are the only
> > organisation doing GPL enforcement for non-FSF projects.
>
> Where can I read some examples about this?

The biggest example right now is the VMware lawsuit:
  https://sfconservancy.org/news/2015/oct/28/vmware-update/

There is more on their `news' page:
  https://sfconservancy.org/news/
  https://sfconservancy.org/news/2015/oct/01/compliance-principles/
  https://sfconservancy.org/news/2015/aug/17/debian/
  https://sfconservancy.org/news/2015/jul/15/ubuntu-ip-policy/
  https://sfconservancy.org/news/2015/mar/31/libreplanet/
etc.

And also on their copyleft compliance summary:
  https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/

Individual compliance actions are often not public because one of the
things that the GPL licensor who wants a a violator to come into
compliance, can offer, is avoidance of the embarrassment of a public
dispute.

Ian.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 01:17:53PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Conservancy is an amazingly good thing.  They are the only
> organisation doing GPL enforcement for non-FSF projects.
Where can I read some examples about this?

-- 
WBR, wRAR

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Jakub Wilk]

* Stefano Zacchiroli , 2015-12-01, 15:36:
Let's give them a part of our money for the service they do us by 
enforcing the GPL for Debian developers.


We already pay for those services. There is a forfait amount of money 
that Debian pays to Conservancy per year (1000 USD, IIRC), which 
corresponds to a forfait amount of lawyer hours that Conservancy give 
to Debian per year.


What does "forfait" mean?

--
Jakub Wilk

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 03:52:35PM +0100, Jakub Wilk wrote:
> >We already pay for those services. There is a forfait amount of money that
> >Debian pays to Conservancy per year (1000 USD, IIRC), which corresponds to
> >a forfait amount of lawyer hours that Conservancy give to Debian per year.
> 
> What does "forfait" mean?

Oops, sorry.
I realized too late the expression doesn't work in English :)

It means we pay that sum per year, and we have pre-allocated to us a
given amount of lawyer hours each year. If we use more, the difference
is billed to us.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli  . . . . . . .  z...@upsilon.cc . . . . o . . . o . o
Maître de conférences . . . . . http://upsilon.cc/zack . . . o . . . o o
Former Debian Project Leader  . . @zack on identi.ca . . o o o . . . o .
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Paul Tagliamonte]

I also donate as a supporter. Anyone that can, should!

  Paul
On Dec 1, 2015 8:18 AM, "Ian Jackson" 
wrote:

> As reported here:
>   https://sfconservancy.org/supporter/
>
> Conservancy is an amazingly good thing.  They are the only
> organisation doing GPL enforcement for non-FSF projects.  They are
> facing financial problems because one of their major donors has
> withdrawn.  Conservancy's determination to make the GPL stick, by
> lawsuit if necessary, is not popular amongst rich corporates.
>
> I have just signed up.  I think any Debian contributor who believes in
> copyleft, and can afford it, should probably sign up too.
>
> If, like me, you work on copylefted software in your day job, or you
> hope to do so in the future, the GPL is for you not just an important
> tool to help change the world, but also an assurance of your personal
> autonomy.
>
>
> Could Debian as a project sign up ?  Conservancy is a 503(c), like
> SPI, so perhaps we in Debian could commit a modest regular funding
> stream to Conservancy.
>
> Debian depends heavily on GPL'd software and most of the
> Debian-specific tools we have written over the years are copyleft.  We
> depend on our copyleft being enforced to ensure that all users of
> Debian (including users of Debian derivatives) have the freedoms that
> our community (and our Social Contract) promise.
>
> Debian's presence in the list of sponsors would be valuable as an
> example, too.
>
>
> Ian.
>
>

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Tue, 01 Dec 2015, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Could Debian as a project sign up ?  Conservancy is a 503(c), like
> SPI, so perhaps we in Debian could commit a modest regular funding
> stream to Conservancy.

+1

We have troubles finding good use of our money. This one should not
cause any problem to anyone.

Let's give them a part of our money for the service they do us by enforcing
the GPL for Debian developers.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer

Support Debian LTS: http://www.freexian.com/services/debian-lts.html
Learn to master Debian: http://debian-handbook.info/get/

Software Freedom Conservancy needs our cash

[Ian Jackson]

As reported here:
  https://sfconservancy.org/supporter/

Conservancy is an amazingly good thing.  They are the only
organisation doing GPL enforcement for non-FSF projects.  They are
facing financial problems because one of their major donors has
withdrawn.  Conservancy's determination to make the GPL stick, by
lawsuit if necessary, is not popular amongst rich corporates.

I have just signed up.  I think any Debian contributor who believes in
copyleft, and can afford it, should probably sign up too.

If, like me, you work on copylefted software in your day job, or you
hope to do so in the future, the GPL is for you not just an important
tool to help change the world, but also an assurance of your personal
autonomy.


Could Debian as a project sign up ?  Conservancy is a 503(c), like
SPI, so perhaps we in Debian could commit a modest regular funding
stream to Conservancy.

Debian depends heavily on GPL'd software and most of the
Debian-specific tools we have written over the years are copyleft.  We
depend on our copyleft being enforced to ensure that all users of
Debian (including users of Debian derivatives) have the freedoms that
our community (and our Social Contract) promise.

Debian's presence in the list of sponsors would be valuable as an
example, too.


Ian.