Re: New font defaults for new users - feedback wanted!
Le Dim 10 Avril 2005 20:33, Nick Leverton a écrit : > On Sun, Apr 10, 2005 at 05:22:11PM +0100, Nick Boyce wrote: > > I realise you're only talking about default-setting here, but I've > > noticed that KDE already looks a lot better at 1024x768 than at > > 800x600 ... as if the higher resolutions are being "designed in". > > I am not sure of the dot pitch on my old 17"er but I think it is > about 0.28mm. I run it at 1152x864 and just tell X the monitor size > in XF86Config-4, it works out what DPI it needs from that. I can't > find a prog to tell me what it's chosen but it is very clear (and > this isn't normally the clearest of monitors). xdpyinfo|grep 'dots per inch' -- ·O· Pierre Habouzit ··O OOOhttp://www.madism.org pgpI84aOQV25v.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: New font defaults for new users - feedback wanted!
On Sun, Apr 10, 2005 at 05:22:11PM +0100, Nick Boyce wrote: > I realise you're only talking about default-setting here, but I've > noticed that KDE already looks a lot better at 1024x768 than at > 800x600 ... as if the higher resolutions are being "designed in". I am not sure of the dot pitch on my old 17"er but I think it is about 0.28mm. I run it at 1152x864 and just tell X the monitor size in XF86Config-4, it works out what DPI it needs from that. I can't find a prog to tell me what it's chosen but it is very clear (and this isn't normally the clearest of monitors). I like to sit between 2' and 3' from my screen (60 to 90 cm) as I am on this machine 14 hours per day work and play, and I find that I can read that perfectly at a font size of arount 8 to 10 points for most fonts. This last upgrade of Sarge font stuff has changed my sans serif font to, apparently, prefer Arial, however my beloved Bitstream Charter is still so readable as the chosen default font :-) If (as often happens) a web page has specified fonts that are just too small, then control-mousewheel over the konqui instance makes them bigger - I don't even have to squint ! Nick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New font defaults for new users - feedback wanted!
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:16:26 -0400, Christopher Martin wrote: > A 17" display, 16" viewale, at 1024x768 is ~80 dpi, but most people > probably run at 1280x1024, Just FYI, since you asked for feedback (and because most of my colleagues say the same as you): I use 17" monitors everywhere, and I run at either 800x600 or 1024x768 resolution depending on which version of OtherOS[TM], or KDE, I'm using. I've tried running at higher resolutions, but frankly I value my eyesight, and feel it would suffer if I used such resolutions on 17" screens. My eyesight is basically OK, but my eyes (irises) have a tendency to become inflamed if I incur eye-strain ... So spare a thought for those of us with less-than-electron-microscope vision capability please :-) I realise you're only talking about default-setting here, but I've noticed that KDE already looks a lot better at 1024x768 than at 800x600 ... as if the higher resolutions are being "designed in". Just my 2p. Cheers, Nick Boyce Bristol, UK -- The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New font defaults for new users - feedback wanted!
> > exists (antialiasing is a pain for monospace fonts in my vim IMHO) > > konsole and antialiasing isn't a goot idea I fully agree. Just to state a different opinion; I like it very much. */ Christoffer Sawicki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New font defaults for new users - feedback wanted!
On Friday 08 April 2005 12:16 pm, Christopher Martin wrote: > I still want feedback on the new defaults, but please do include your > display size, resolution, etc. The defaults you have chosen match the sizes I currently use (10pt). My DPI is set to the actual DPI (80 x 81 px on a monitor with 325 x 241 mm physical dimensions running at 1024 x 768 px). So I'd be happy with them, and probably most Western language users who have their DPI set properly, and have good eyesight, will too. (However, CJK ideographs are pretty hard to read at anything below 12 pt. AIUI, Gtk has per-locale default font sizes, presumably for this very reason. Qt may need something similar to really do this right.) To those people who have their DPI set intentionally wrong because you use bitmapped fonts, I suggest you try installing the xfonts-100dpi package and changing your hardcoded DPI to from 75 to 100. Cheers, nate -- Nathaniel W. Turner http://houseofnate.net/ pgpfda9Wfau4l.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: New font defaults for new users - feedback wanted!
On Friday 08 April 2005 22:28, Pierre Habouzit wrote: > > With scalable fonts and TFTs dpi tweaking is stupid (IMO or course). > the point is I use bitmap fonts for monospace fonts in my terminals, and > I can assure you the dpi is quite important then ;) > > give me a nice looking monospaced font ... and I'll see. but it does not Heh, use custom font set to to a TTF like, e.g., 'Courier New' and be done ;) [AFAIR SuSE also has a usable TTF font in konsole.] E.g. on IRC I suggested: cat > /etc/kde3/konsolerc < exists (antialiasing is a pain for monospace fonts in my vim IMHO) konsole and antialiasing isn't a goot idea I fully agree. Achim > -- > ÂOÂ Pierre Habouzit > ÂÂO > OOOhttp://www.madism.org > -- To me vi is Zen. To use vi is to practice zen. Every command is a koan. Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated. You discover truth everytime you use it. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New font defaults for new users - feedback wanted!
> With scalable fonts and TFTs dpi tweaking is stupid (IMO or course). the point is I use bitmap fonts for monospace fonts in my terminals, and I can assure you the dpi is quite important then ;) give me a nice looking monospaced font ... and I'll see. but it does not exists (antialiasing is a pain for monospace fonts in my vim IMHO) -- ·O· Pierre Habouzit ··O OOOhttp://www.madism.org pgpCE33b6Dmhx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: New font defaults for new users - feedback wanted!
On Friday 08 April 2005 17:22, Bastian Venthur wrote: > Pierre Habouzit wrote: > > > afaik, when using kdm, dpi is guessed by X. > > my dpi was read on my both screens (the physical ones) and resulted in > > x-dpi and y-dpi (I mean the horiz and vertical dpi weren't the same). > > > > maybe then if fallbacks to 75dpi if no information is found on the > > hardware ... > > > > Personnaly I *manually* force the dpi in kdmrc, and I run startx with > > -- -dpi 75 Uh, why? > > Thats exactly the reason why i thought, that kde is "optimized" for 75dpi, > because on it looks best on my 14''laptop-display as well as on my 19'' > deskop-display with 75dpi. Some times back kdm Xservers file forced 100 dpi. AFAIR never 75 dpi. All this looks best cheating with dpi was a somehow usefuls hack with CRT monitors and in limited available sizes of bitmap fonts. With scalable fonts and TFTs dpi tweaking is stupid (IMO or course). > > Calculating the dpi for both displays would give me some values about > 92-96dpi but I think 75dpi looks kind of better. No. Wrong approach. Choose another font size (in pt). > > Personaly I find "dpi" as it pretty useless for monitor-description, since > we have already all data needed: 1280x1024 (19'') for example. But i > admint, that i may have not fully understood this hole "graphics-thingy". dpi much more accurate that the 1'' steps used in monitor descriptions (and only there ;) Ever seen a 14.31'' monitor? I'm looking right now at one ;) Further dpi in x and dpi in y are often not identical and then the dimension of the diagonal is to less information. I've 14'' TFT with 75 dpi, 98 dpi, 125 dpi and a 15'' with 133 dpi. On all of them I use 10pt font settings and on all monitors the font have identical size. Windows (almost) identical size. Restored or copied setting look almost identical. Great. If I would force 75 dpi, without changing font size. The fonts would be on the 133 dpi almost half the size as on the old TFT with 75 dpi. Same for windows sizes. PDL documentation tell you A4 but it looks like A5. Argl! Recalibration size with gimp for every monitor, what fun. > > BTW as far as i remember XP has only two settings for dpi 96(default) and > some-other-but-not-75 (don't remember the exact value). yeah, brain dead windows has only std 2 font sizes. And brain dead MS programmer hard code pixel size of buttons so that only one font works well. That's worser than the unix situation year ago. And MS solution? scale up everything on hires monitor. Lose all the sharpness one can expect from a hires monitor. HAA brilliant! > > > I don't know how startx work anyway. > > Me too ;) > > I wish someone at kde.org could implement some inside-kde-solution for > setting the dpi, so we finaly have a common basis for things like setting > the default fontsize. KDE has the solution some years already. They specify fonts size in pt (72pt == 1 inch) not pixels. Then there no need at all to even know about dpi as long as the Xserver gets the right value from the hardware. In the old days monitor had ~ 75 dpi. So 1 px ~ 1 pt = 1 dot. People are used to font size of 10. They always think this are pixels but are really used to 10 pt fonts. Achim > > > Nice Weekend > > Bastian > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- To me vi is Zen. To use vi is to practice zen. Every command is a koan. Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated. You discover truth everytime you use it. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New font defaults for new users - feedback wanted!
On April 8, 2005 10:44, Bastian Venthur wrote: > I think you have a tough job adjusting the fonts, since it heavily > depents on the dpi-setting of the system. The main problem here (often > heard in debian.user.german) is, that kdm uses 75dpi by default but > startx starts with 100dpi. > But i *think* kde itself is kind of optimized to 75dpi (the icons on the > desktop are a good example) I really don't think it's optimized for a specific dpi at all. > therefore i think it would be the best to > assume the average user works under 75dpi. (I'm not shure about this > point but every live-cd I've tested works with 75dpi no matter wich > display I use). Hmmm, well an old 14" display, 13" viewable, at 1024x768 is about ~96 dpi. A 15" display, 14" viewable, at 1024x768 is ~90 dpi. A 17" display, 16" viewale, at 1024x768 is ~80 dpi, but most people probably run at 1280x1024, making it ~100 dpi. A modern, 21" LCD, meaning 21" viewable, at 1600x1200, is ~96 dpi, and 17" LCDs at 1280x1024 are about the same. Also, as Pierre pointed out, KDM's default is to allow X to figure out your actual dpi. This behaviour is the same as you should get when using startx or gdm (xdm forces 100 dpi, as did kdm until 3.2). GNOME has a settings daemon that sets 96 dpi for fonts by default, but the user can change this easily. Frankly, I wish KDE behaved the same way as GNOME. As you have observed, when autocalculation fails (and even if it doesn't fail, it often returns junk values), then X defaults to 75 dpi. Aside from someone coding a patch for KDE that makes it behave like GNOME, this leaves KDE packagers with few appealing options: 1) leave the default font sizes as they are, which are too large for most modern displays, making the default fonts for most people unsuitable. or 2) set font sizes that are better for modern displays, but annoy the 75 dpi crowd, who are forced to change their font sizes - but then GTK/GNOME defaults to size 10, so they'll have to change anyway... or 3) Split the difference, and hope no one is too ticked off :) KDM also allows the forcing of a certain dpi, and we could set an automatic default of 96. However, users who start KDE with startx would not "gain" anything by such a change. Moreover, kdm is much more of nuisance to reconfigure than the GNOME settings daemon (and the change isn't visible to those who don't know where to look, meaning the depths of /etc/kde3/kdm/kdmrc). Incidentally, an easy way to set your font dpi is to add: Xft.dpi: 96 (or whatever value) in ~/.Xresources. This should work for all modern GTK/Qt apps and environments. You might find it easier than re-setting all your font sizes. Excellent reading on this whole subject can be found at: http://scanline.ca/dpi/ I still want feedback on the new defaults, but please do include your display size, resolution, etc. > BTW I think it's pretty annoying (to be least offending ;) -- that there > is still a difference in the dpi-setting if you're starting via kdm or > manualy via startx. There is no question asked in the installation of > xserver or kdm where you could set you dpi. I know, kinda OT but this > dpi-issue is one you hear kinda often in debian.user.$language. Yes, the current situation with X is a mess. That said, you shouldn't be seeing a difference between kdm and startx unless you've got some old setting lurking somewhere (an ancient kdm configuration, perhaps). Cheers, Christopher Martin pgpTSiSZD2IXK.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: New font defaults for new users - feedback wanted!
Pierre Habouzit wrote: > afaik, when using kdm, dpi is guessed by X. > my dpi was read on my both screens (the physical ones) and resulted in > x-dpi and y-dpi (I mean the horiz and vertical dpi weren't the same). > > maybe then if fallbacks to 75dpi if no information is found on the > hardware ... > > Personnaly I *manually* force the dpi in kdmrc, and I run startx with > -- -dpi 75 Thats exactly the reason why i thought, that kde is "optimized" for 75dpi, because on it looks best on my 14''laptop-display as well as on my 19'' deskop-display with 75dpi. Calculating the dpi for both displays would give me some values about 92-96dpi but I think 75dpi looks kind of better. Personaly I find "dpi" as it pretty useless for monitor-description, since we have already all data needed: 1280x1024 (19'') for example. But i admint, that i may have not fully understood this hole "graphics-thingy". BTW as far as i remember XP has only two settings for dpi 96(default) and some-other-but-not-75 (don't remember the exact value). > I don't know how startx work anyway. Me too ;) I wish someone at kde.org could implement some inside-kde-solution for setting the dpi, so we finaly have a common basis for things like setting the default fontsize. Nice Weekend Bastian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New font defaults for new users - feedback wanted!
Christopher Martin wrote: > On April 8, 2005 03:22, Bastian Venthur wrote: >> I think someone has forgotten to set the fontsizes right - there are all >> a bi too small > > These defaults are pretty much the same as used by GNOME (which is pretty > good at setting defaults, but they also by default render fonts at 96 DPI, > which KDE, alas, does not), and they look fine here, and on the few other > displays I've tested. Of course, many users have _very_ different > displays, so I really, really want feedback and comments on these new > defaults (positive or negative), so that if they're not suitable, I can > adjust them before KDE 3.4 enters unstable. I think you have a tough job adjusting the fonts, since it heavily depents on the dpi-setting of the system. The main problem here (often heard in debian.user.german) is, that kdm uses 75dpi by default but startx starts with 100dpi. The user is disturbed askes his local newsgroup, "why are my fonts/icons sometimes soo big/small)", where he gets told to set the dpi to something which you can calculate by your display size and resolution. But i *think* kde itself is kind of optimized to 75dpi (the icons on the desktop are a good example), therefore i think it would be the best to assume the average user works under 75dpi. (I'm not shure about this point but every live-cd I've tested works with 75dpi no matter wich display I use). > >> and i *think* in the kde-default there also not all of the same size. > > Hmmm, could you explain what you mean here? I mean the font-sizes for toolbar, fixed-font and so on. Compare the old default and the new one by size: ---old--- ---new--- Helevetica 12 sans serif 10 courier 12 monospace 10 Helevetica 10 sans serif 10 <- Helevetica 12 sans serif 10 Helevetica 12 sans serif 10 Helevetica 11 sans serif 10 <- Helevetica 12 sans serif 10 BTW I think it's pretty annoying (to be least offending ;) -- that there is still a difference in the dpi-setting if you're starting via kdm or manualy via startx. There is no question asked in the installation of xserver or kdm where you could set you dpi. I know, kinda OT but this dpi-issue is one you hear kinda often in debian.user.$language. > Thanks, > Christopher Martin Hope this helps a bit Bastian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New font defaults for new users - feedback wanted!
afaik, when using kdm, dpi is guessed by X. my dpi was read on my both screens (the physical ones) and resulted in x-dpi and y-dpi (I mean the horiz and vertical dpi weren't the same). maybe then if fallbacks to 75dpi if no information is found on the hardware ... Personnaly I *manually* force the dpi in kdmrc, and I run startx with -- -dpi 75 I don't know how startx work anyway. -- ·O· Pierre Habouzit ··O OOOhttp://www.madism.org pgpUgBQ3NSFkn.pgp Description: PGP signature
New font defaults for new users - feedback wanted!
On April 8, 2005 03:22, Bastian Venthur wrote: > I saw, that now the bug seems to be fixed, but I think not yet right. > Before the yesterdays change the defaultfonts were like: > > Helevetica 12 > courier 12 > Helevetica 10 > Helevetica 12 > Helevetica 12 > Helevetica 11 > Helevetica 12 > > but now the default fonts are: > > sans serif 10 > monospace 10 > sans serif 10 > sans serif 10 > sans serif 10 > sans serif 10 > sans serif 10 > > I think someone has forgotten to set the fontsizes right - there are all > a bi too small These defaults are pretty much the same as used by GNOME (which is pretty good at setting defaults, but they also by default render fonts at 96 DPI, which KDE, alas, does not), and they look fine here, and on the few other displays I've tested. Of course, many users have _very_ different displays, so I really, really want feedback and comments on these new defaults (positive or negative), so that if they're not suitable, I can adjust them before KDE 3.4 enters unstable. > and i *think* in the kde-default there also not all of the same size. Hmmm, could you explain what you mean here? Thanks, Christopher Martin pgplUD737w6sH.pgp Description: PGP signature
