Re: Why is troubleshooting Linux so hard?

[Andrei Popescu]

On Ma, 16 nov 10, 16:43:38, Borden Rhodes wrote:
> 
> But how would such a utopian scheme be implemented?  Well, my training
> is in accounting so I'll tell you how they solve these problems.  A
> governing body, like the SEC or AICPA, recognises a problem in its
> standards and rules which, for example, allowed Enron to get away with
> what it did for as long as it did.  They sit down and they say 'this
> shouldn't happen again if accountants do this.'  They pass a regulation
> and they say 'anyone who wants to issue compliant financial statements
> needs to play by these rules.' They don't chase down every practising
> accountant and every registered company and convince them to use the new
> standards.  They just tell them that, to be part of the club, they have
> to play by the new rules.  Debian, to my understanding, works that way.
> A package which doesn't follow the rules has a grave bug filed against
> it and isn't included in the new release until it's fixed.  Why does it
> have to be any more complicated for making error messages useful?

You got it wrong, Debian does NOT work this way. Policy is not something 
to beat maintainers with who don't obey it, but rather to document sane 
packaging practices which come out of 17 years of packaging experience.

Also, I consider the lack of a body to make rules about how FLOSS 
software should be written to be an advantage, because it would hinder 
innovation.

You also forget that all Developers (in Debian or upstream) work on a 
voluntary basis. You cannot enforce program writing rules, because they 
would rather just not do it. After all, writing code based on other 
people's specs is something that you do at a paid job ;)

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: Upgrade from Lenny to Squeeze

[Andrei Popescu]

On Ma, 16 nov 10, 11:37:39, Gary Roach wrote:

> attempted to install the new system that way. The Squeeze disk
> didn't recognize the windows system and trashed my boot files. I

This shouldn't happen. If you can reproduce this it would be important 
to file a bug report.

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: what is the use of -c parameter of column(1), can you demonstrate with an example?

[Phil Requirements]

On 2010-11-17 13:12:38 +0800, Zhang Weiwu, Beijing wrote:
> While I see it this way:
> 
> expand--> Format tab-indented text and tab-separated tables using spaces.
> column -t --> Format tab-separated tables using spaces.
> column--> Format lists into columns.

"column -t" does much more than format tabs into spaces.

It can use a comma as a separator, for processing CSV data.

column -t -s ',' myfile.csv

It can use a space as a separator, for processing "aptitude update".

sudo aptitude update | column -t

It can use a colon as a separator, for processing "/etc/group".

column -t -s ':' /etc/group

> Pick this scenario:
> 
> A user have tab-separated tabular data.
> 
> 1. He try to format it, using expand -t 8
> 2. He see it's not good enough, he does it again with expand -t 10
> 3. He see it's okay for some columns, but is too wide for others. Then he 
> uses column -t

It seems to me that the only thing this scenario proves is that
sometimes you need to use "expand", and sometimes you need to
use "column -t". They are different tools, with different purposes.

> I follow the idea that usage leads to tools, that "you have tools for a
> usage", while traditional column tool seems to design from tools to
> usage, that "you have tools which can used for usages". I guess this is
> more rational from learning prospective.

The column utility was written to satsify a need! For any long skinny
list of text, it will put that list into *columns* that fit on the
screen better, so you don't have to do as much scrolling.

"column -t" also satisfies a need! It takes ragged columns of output
and spreads them out so they are nicely aligned... and therefore
readable.

I hope I have understood your argument correctly,

Phil


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Re: [OT] Re: atx mobo that isn't atx

[Stan Hoeppner]

Hugo Vanwoerkom put forth on 11/16/2010 2:19 PM:
> Camaleón wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 12:46:43 -0600, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
>>
>>> In the process of installing asus M4N98TD EVO ATX mobo, I discovered
>>> that the one I am replacing, an Epox 8VTAI, says it's ATX but it isn't:
>>> it's 305mmx210mm and that is nothing that I recognize.
>>
>> After digging a bit with Google, it seems that "305x210mm" form factor
>> motherboards are called "narrowed ATX"... not sure if they fit to any
>> standard, though, but many manufacturers are providing such boards
>> nowadays :-?
>>
> 
> Mobo is 5 years old. See quite a few mobo's 305x210, still. Missed the
> "narrowed atx" though. Thanks.

If the Epox board came out of, and you are installing the Asus board
into, a standard ATX case, the Asus board will drop right in and all the
mounting holes should line up just fine.

A cautionary note:  You should probably replace your PSU as well, given
that you're going to install a multi-core CPU and possibly SLI graphics
cards.  Your old PSU will probably not be up to the task.  If you intend
to run SLI GPUs, install an SLI PSU with dual +12V rails.

-- 
Stan


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Re: Re: Why is troubleshooting Linux so hard?

[Borden Rhodes]

Much obliged for the insight.  I think I understand now the point that
Steve was trying to get at.  If I understood correctly, Debian's role in
package maintenance is the packaging; the actual coding (and related
policies) are handled farther upstream.

All the same, I still struggle to understand how it's possible that
F/OSS has gone this long without a coherent approach to logging and
diagnosing problems.  You make a doctor's job awfully difficult when you
only have vague symptoms which could refer to any number of ailments of
varying severity.  The doctor, in this case, are the poor sods who've
agreed to manage the package.

It may not be Debian's policy to tell a programmer how to write
software, but surely a policy on generating useful troubleshooting
output is consistent with a goal of producing a stable operating system
and, therefore, an area where Debian can lead.

I recommended to the Debian policy people (who promptly ignored the
idea) that packages should produce time-stamped logs.  I specifically
mentioned .xsession-errors which isn't time-stamped and the response was
that the output was part of an error stream and therefore impossible to
time stamp.  Seriously? Java and C++ are the only languages capable of
catch (exception e) {
  logfile.writeln( time() + e );
}
(yes, I know it's butchered C++/Java but you get the idea)

This idea alone could cut bug reports in half and make them twice as
useful!  Instead of saying "attach Xorg.log" you could say "attach the
messages from Xorg.log which occurred 5 minutes before/after X went
blank."  Yes, I know that Xorg is in the process of time-stamping their
logs, but the point is that there are still many other packages that
have no intention of switching.

Again, I appreciate the feedback.  I'm a lot less frustrated that we're
talking about it.  I have hope that some good idea or initiative will
come of this.

Borden


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Re: what is the use of -c parameter of column(1), can you demonstrate with an example?

[Zhang Weiwu, Beijing]

 On 11/17/2010 07:39 AM, Phil Requirements wrote:
> expand--> converts tabs to spaces
> column--> takes a list and displays it in columns
> column -t --> takes lines of data, splits each line, displays the result in 
> columns
>
While I see it this way:

expand--> Format tab-indented text and tab-separated tables using spaces.
column -t --> Format tab-separated tables using spaces.
column--> Format lists into columns.

Pick this scenario:

A user have tab-separated tabular data.

1. He try to format it, using expand -t 8
2. He see it's not good enough, he does it again with expand -t 10
3. He see it's okay for some columns, but is too wide for others. Then he uses 
column -t


Thought the whole process, the source data doesn't change, the purpose
doesn't change, but tool changed.

I follow the idea that usage leads to tools, that "you have tools for a
usage", while traditional column tool seems to design from tools to
usage, that "you have tools which can used for usages". I guess this is
more rational from learning prospective.


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Re: How to recreate a dmraid RAID array with mdadm (was: no subject)

[Neil Brown]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 21:44:10 -0500
Mike Viau  wrote:

> 
> > On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 12:26:47 +1100  wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:21:22 +1100  wrote:
>  On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 01:50:42 -0500 Mike wrote:
> 
>  How does one fix the problem of not having the array not starting at 
>  boot?
> 
> >>>
> >>> To be able to answer that one would need to know exactly what is in the
> >>> initramfs. And unfortunately all distros are different and I'm not
> >>> particularly familiar with Ubuntu.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe if you
> >>> mkdir /tmp/initrd
> >>> cd /tmp/initrd
> >>> zcat /boot/initrd.img-2.6.32-5-amd64 | cpio -idv
> >>>
> >>> and then have a look around and particularly report etc/mdadm/mdadm.conf
> >>> and anything else that might be interesting.
> >>>
> >>> If the mdadm.conf in the initrd is the same as in /etc/mdadm, then it
> >>> *should* work.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Thanks again Neil. I got a chance to examine my systems initramfs to 
> >> discover two differences in the local copy of mdadm.conf and the 
> >> initramfs's copy.
> >>
> >> The initramfs's copy contains:
> >>
> >> DEVICE partitions
> >> HOMEHOST
> >> ARRAY metadata=imsm UUID=084b969a:0808f5b8:6c784fb7:62659383
> >> ARRAY /dev/md/OneTB-RAID1-PV container=084b969a:0808f5b8:6c784fb7:62659383 
> >> member=0 UUID=ae4a1598:72267ed7:3b34867b:9c56497a
> >>
> >> So both ARRAY lines got copied over to the initramfs's copy of mdadm.conf, 
> >> but
> >>
> >> CREATE owner=root group=disk mode=0660 auto=yes
> >>
> >> and
> >>
> >> MAILADDR root
> >>
> >> were not carried over on the update-initramfs command.
> >>
> >>
> >> To your clearly better understanding of all this, does the CREATE stanza 
> >> NEED to be present in the initramfs's copy of mdadm.conf in order for the 
> >> array to be created on boot? If so, how can one accomplish this, so that 
> >> the line is added whenever a new initramfs is created for the kernel?
> >
> > No, those differences couldn't explain it not working.
> >
> > I would really expect that mdadm.conf file to successfully assemble the
> > RAID1.
> >
> > As you have the same in /etc/mdadm/mdadm.conf you could see what is 
> > happening
> > by:
> >
> > mdadm -Ss
> >
> > to stop all md arrays, then
> >
> > mdadm -Asvv
> >
> > to auto-start everything in mdadm.conf and be verbose about that is 
> > happening.
> >
> > If that fails to start the raid1, then the messages it produces will be
> > helpful in understanding why.
> > If it succeeds, then there must be something wrong with the initrd...
> > Maybe '/sbin/mdmon' is missing... Or maybe it doesn't run
> > mdadm -As
> > (or equivalently: mdadm --assemble --scan)
> > but doesn't something else. To determine what you would need to search for
> > 'mdadm' in all the scripts in the initrd and see what turns up.
> >
> 
> Using mdadm -Ss stops the array:
> 
> mdadm: stopped /dev/md127
> 
> 
> Where /dev/md127 is the imsm0 device and not the OneTB-RAID1-PV device.
> 
> 
> Then executing mdadm -Asvv shows:
> 
> mdadm: looking for devices for further assembly
> mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/dm-3
> mdadm: /dev/dm-3 has wrong uuid.
> mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/dm-2
> mdadm: /dev/dm-2 has wrong uuid.
> mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/dm-1
> mdadm: /dev/dm-1 has wrong uuid.
> mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/dm-0
> mdadm: /dev/dm-0 has wrong uuid.
> mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/loop0
> mdadm: /dev/loop0 has wrong uuid.
> mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc7: Device or resource busy
> mdadm: /dev/sdc7 has wrong uuid.
> mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc6: Device or resource busy
> mdadm: /dev/sdc6 has wrong uuid.
> mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc5: Device or resource busy
> mdadm: /dev/sdc5 has wrong uuid.
> mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/sdc2
> mdadm: /dev/sdc2 has wrong uuid.
> mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc1: Device or resource busy
> mdadm: /dev/sdc1 has wrong uuid.
> mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc: Device or resource busy
> mdadm: /dev/sdc has wrong uuid.
> mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdb: Device or resource busy
> mdadm: /dev/sdb has wrong uuid.
> mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sda: Device or resource busy
> mdadm: /dev/sda has wrong uuid.

This looks wrong.  mdadm should be looking for the container as listed in
mdadm.conf and it should find a matching uuid on sda and sdb, but it doesn't.

Can you:

 mdadm -E /dev/sda /dev/sdb ; cat /etc/mdadm/mdadm.conf

so I can compare the uuids?

Thanks,

NeilBrown




> mdadm: looking for devices for /dev/md/OneTB-RAID1-PV
> mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/dm-3
> mdadm/dev/dm-3 is not a container, and one is required.
> mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/dm-2
> mdadm/dev/dm-2 is not a container, and one is required.
> mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/dm-1
> mdadm/dev/dm-1 is not a container, and one is required.
> mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/dm-0
> mdadm/dev/dm-0 is not a container, and one is required.
> mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/loop0
> 

RE: How to recreate a dmraid RAID array with mdadm (was: no subject)

[Mike Viau]

> On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 12:26:47 +1100  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:21:22 +1100  wrote:
 On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 01:50:42 -0500 Mike wrote:

 How does one fix the problem of not having the array not starting at boot?

>>>
>>> To be able to answer that one would need to know exactly what is in the
>>> initramfs. And unfortunately all distros are different and I'm not
>>> particularly familiar with Ubuntu.
>>>
>>> Maybe if you
>>> mkdir /tmp/initrd
>>> cd /tmp/initrd
>>> zcat /boot/initrd.img-2.6.32-5-amd64 | cpio -idv
>>>
>>> and then have a look around and particularly report etc/mdadm/mdadm.conf
>>> and anything else that might be interesting.
>>>
>>> If the mdadm.conf in the initrd is the same as in /etc/mdadm, then it
>>> *should* work.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks again Neil. I got a chance to examine my systems initramfs to 
>> discover two differences in the local copy of mdadm.conf and the initramfs's 
>> copy.
>>
>> The initramfs's copy contains:
>>
>> DEVICE partitions
>> HOMEHOST
>> ARRAY metadata=imsm UUID=084b969a:0808f5b8:6c784fb7:62659383
>> ARRAY /dev/md/OneTB-RAID1-PV container=084b969a:0808f5b8:6c784fb7:62659383 
>> member=0 UUID=ae4a1598:72267ed7:3b34867b:9c56497a
>>
>> So both ARRAY lines got copied over to the initramfs's copy of mdadm.conf, 
>> but
>>
>> CREATE owner=root group=disk mode=0660 auto=yes
>>
>> and
>>
>> MAILADDR root
>>
>> were not carried over on the update-initramfs command.
>>
>>
>> To your clearly better understanding of all this, does the CREATE stanza 
>> NEED to be present in the initramfs's copy of mdadm.conf in order for the 
>> array to be created on boot? If so, how can one accomplish this, so that the 
>> line is added whenever a new initramfs is created for the kernel?
>
> No, those differences couldn't explain it not working.
>
> I would really expect that mdadm.conf file to successfully assemble the
> RAID1.
>
> As you have the same in /etc/mdadm/mdadm.conf you could see what is happening
> by:
>
> mdadm -Ss
>
> to stop all md arrays, then
>
> mdadm -Asvv
>
> to auto-start everything in mdadm.conf and be verbose about that is happening.
>
> If that fails to start the raid1, then the messages it produces will be
> helpful in understanding why.
> If it succeeds, then there must be something wrong with the initrd...
> Maybe '/sbin/mdmon' is missing... Or maybe it doesn't run
> mdadm -As
> (or equivalently: mdadm --assemble --scan)
> but doesn't something else. To determine what you would need to search for
> 'mdadm' in all the scripts in the initrd and see what turns up.
>

Using mdadm -Ss stops the array:

mdadm: stopped /dev/md127


Where /dev/md127 is the imsm0 device and not the OneTB-RAID1-PV device.


Then executing mdadm -Asvv shows:

mdadm: looking for devices for further assembly
mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/dm-3
mdadm: /dev/dm-3 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/dm-2
mdadm: /dev/dm-2 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/dm-1
mdadm: /dev/dm-1 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/dm-0
mdadm: /dev/dm-0 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/loop0
mdadm: /dev/loop0 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc7: Device or resource busy
mdadm: /dev/sdc7 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc6: Device or resource busy
mdadm: /dev/sdc6 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc5: Device or resource busy
mdadm: /dev/sdc5 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/sdc2
mdadm: /dev/sdc2 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc1: Device or resource busy
mdadm: /dev/sdc1 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc: Device or resource busy
mdadm: /dev/sdc has wrong uuid.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdb: Device or resource busy
mdadm: /dev/sdb has wrong uuid.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sda: Device or resource busy
mdadm: /dev/sda has wrong uuid.
mdadm: looking for devices for /dev/md/OneTB-RAID1-PV
mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/dm-3
mdadm/dev/dm-3 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/dm-2
mdadm/dev/dm-2 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/dm-1
mdadm/dev/dm-1 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/dm-0
mdadm/dev/dm-0 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/loop0
mdadm/dev/loop0 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc7: Device or resource busy
mdadm/dev/sdc7 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc6: Device or resource busy
mdadm/dev/sdc6 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc5: Device or resource busy
mdadm/dev/sdc5 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/sdc2
mdadm/dev/sdc2 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc1: Device or resource busy
mdadm/dev/sdc1 is not a cont

RE: How to recreate a dmraid RAID array with mdadm (was: no subject)

[Mike Viau]

> On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 12:53:37 +1100  wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 01:39:39 +
> John Robinson  wrote:
>
> > On 17/11/2010 01:26, Neil Brown wrote:
> > > On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 20:02:17 -0500
> > > Mike Viau wrote:
> > [...]
> > >> DEVICE partitions
> > >> HOMEHOST
> > >> ARRAY metadata=imsm UUID=084b969a:0808f5b8:6c784fb7:62659383
> > >> ARRAY /dev/md/OneTB-RAID1-PV 
> > >> container=084b969a:0808f5b8:6c784fb7:62659383 member=0 
> > >> UUID=ae4a1598:72267ed7:3b34867b:9c56497a
> > [...]
> > > I would really expect that mdadm.conf file to successfully assemble the
> > > RAID1.
> >
> > The only thing that strikes me is that "DEVICE partitions" line - surely
> > imsm containers don't live in partitions?
>
> No, they don't.
>
> But "DEVICE partitions" actually means "any devices listed
> in /proc/partitions", and that includes whole devices.
> :-(
>

I noticed both /dev/sda and /dev/sdb (the drives which make up the raid1 array) 
do not appear to recognized as having a valid container when one is required. 
The output of mdadm -Asvv shows:

mdadm -Asvv
mdadm: looking for devices for further assembly
mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/dm-3
mdadm: /dev/dm-3 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/dm-2
mdadm: /dev/dm-2 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/dm-1
mdadm: /dev/dm-1 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/dm-0
mdadm: /dev/dm-0 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/loop0
mdadm: /dev/loop0 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc7: Device or resource busy
mdadm: /dev/sdc7 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc6: Device or resource busy
mdadm: /dev/sdc6 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc5: Device or resource busy
mdadm: /dev/sdc5 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: no RAID superblock on /dev/sdc2
mdadm: /dev/sdc2 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc1: Device or resource busy
mdadm: /dev/sdc1 has wrong uuid.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc: Device or resource busy
mdadm: /dev/sdc has wrong uuid.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdb: Device or resource busy
mdadm: /dev/sdb has wrong uuid.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sda: Device or resource busy
mdadm: /dev/sda has wrong uuid.
mdadm: looking for devices for /dev/md/OneTB-RAID1-PV
mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/dm-3
mdadm/dev/dm-3 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/dm-2
mdadm/dev/dm-2 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/dm-1
mdadm/dev/dm-1 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/dm-0
mdadm/dev/dm-0 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/loop0
mdadm/dev/loop0 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc7: Device or resource busy
mdadm/dev/sdc7 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc6: Device or resource busy
mdadm/dev/sdc6 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc5: Device or resource busy
mdadm/dev/sdc5 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: no recogniseable superblock on /dev/sdc2
mdadm/dev/sdc2 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc1: Device or resource busy
mdadm/dev/sdc1 is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdc: Device or resource busy
mdadm/dev/sdc is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sdb: Device or resource busy
mdadm/dev/sdb is not a container, and one is required.
mdadm: cannot open device /dev/sda: Device or resource busy
mdadm/dev/sda is not a container, and one is required.


and cat /proc/partitions shows:

major minor  #blocks  name

   8    0  976762584 sda
   8   16  976762584 sdb
   8   32   78125000 sdc
   8   33 487424 sdc1
   8   34  1 sdc2
   8   37   20995072 sdc5
   8   38    7811072 sdc6
   8   39   48826368 sdc7
   7    0    4388218 loop0
 254    0   10485760 dm-0
 254    1   10485760 dm-1
 254    2   10485760 dm-2
 254    3   17367040 dm-3

  

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Re: How to recreate a dmraid RAID array with mdadm (was: no subject)

[John Robinson]

On 17/11/2010 01:26, Neil Brown wrote:

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 20:02:17 -0500
Mike Viau  wrote:

[...]

DEVICE partitions
HOMEHOST
ARRAY metadata=imsm UUID=084b969a:0808f5b8:6c784fb7:62659383
ARRAY /dev/md/OneTB-RAID1-PV container=084b969a:0808f5b8:6c784fb7:62659383 
member=0 UUID=ae4a1598:72267ed7:3b34867b:9c56497a

[...]

I would really expect that mdadm.conf file to successfully assemble the
RAID1.


The only thing that strikes me is that "DEVICE partitions" line - surely 
imsm containers don't live in partitions?


Cheers,

John.


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Re: How to recreate a dmraid RAID array with mdadm (was: no subject)

[Neil Brown]

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 01:39:39 +
John Robinson  wrote:

> On 17/11/2010 01:26, Neil Brown wrote:
> > On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 20:02:17 -0500
> > Mike Viau  wrote:
> [...]
> >> DEVICE partitions
> >> HOMEHOST
> >> ARRAY metadata=imsm UUID=084b969a:0808f5b8:6c784fb7:62659383
> >> ARRAY /dev/md/OneTB-RAID1-PV container=084b969a:0808f5b8:6c784fb7:62659383 
> >> member=0 UUID=ae4a1598:72267ed7:3b34867b:9c56497a
> [...]
> > I would really expect that mdadm.conf file to successfully assemble the
> > RAID1.
> 
> The only thing that strikes me is that "DEVICE partitions" line - surely 
> imsm containers don't live in partitions?

No, they don't.

But "DEVICE partitions" actually means "any devices listed
in /proc/partitions", and that includes whole devices.
:-(

NeilBrown


> 
> Cheers,
> 
> John.


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Re: Upgrade from Lenny to Squeeze

[Gary Roach]

Sorry Simon. When I said that my boot files were trashed I meant that 
neither XP or Linux was working anymore. The laptop was a boat anchor.


Gary R.

On 01/-10/-28163 11:59 AM, Simon Hollenbach wrote:


- Original message -
> I have a dual boot Windows XP / Lenny Toshiba Qosmio G25 laptop. I have
> it setup for dual boot with XP on one hard drive and Linux on the 
other.

> I wanted to upgrade to Squeeze. I ran an Aptitude upgrade by changing
> Lenny to Squeeze in the /etc/apt/source.list file and then running the
> usual update sequence. Everything worked except Postgresql 8.4 refused
> to configure. After reading the bug reports I concluded that this is a
> serious bug that isn't going away soon. So I burned a Squeeze Network
> Installation Disk (6.1 beta) and attempted to install the new system
> that way. The Squeeze disk didn't recognize the windows system and
> trashed my boot files. I finally did a fresh installation using my old
> Lenny Network Installation Disk. This corrected all of the problems but
> leaves me back where I started.
>
> Can anyone tell me how I can do this upgrade safely and effectively.
>
> Gary R.
>
>
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Hello Gary,
restoring the ability to boot to Win from GRUB2 shouldnt be a problem. 
After having installed Squeeze, make sure os-prober is installed. #su 
#apt-get install os-prober
Afterwards by running #su #update-grub you ought see a line 
identifying your Win partition.


I hope that'll help
Simon

Re: How to check which package are from multimedia.org?

[Celejar]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 23:12:13 + (UTC)
Camaleón  wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 15:13:21 -0500, Celejar wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 20:53:27 +0200 Andrei Popescu wrote:
> > 
> >> On Lu, 15 nov 10, 09:21:54, Celejar wrote:
> >> > 
> >> > Perhaps I took it the wrong way, but I thought that the maintainer
> >> > could have been a bit more cooperative and sympathetic, given that
> >> > we're dealing with a repo which is widely used and practically
> >> > official, even though it technically isn't.
> >> 
> >> While I tend to agree with you, it seems to me DDs are not very
> >> enthusiastic about work done outside the Debian Project. In most cases
> >> their skepticism is justified (it's not just a case of NIH[1]).
> > 
> > But that's exactly the point!  Camaleón asked why someone wouldn't use
> > dmo, and I responded by pointing out that there will be inevitable
> > conflicts between packages from dmo and the official repos, and I noted
> > that DDs may just brush you off if you report such problems.
> 
> The same you describe here is what happens in other distributions... in 
> fact, external repositories ("community driven" ones) are always 
> problematic to deal with in a way that some of these repos provide 
> packages which conflicts with the stock ones (same package, different 
> versions, usually with no restrictions -like codecs, etc...) and more 
> often than we would like problems arise... and you can't go to the bug 
> tracking system and complain there, devels will just tell you:
> 
> a) To contact the package owner to fix the bug
> b) To install stock version of the package
> 
> Sad (from user's side), but understable (from a DD perspective).
> 
> But I didn't know "debian-multimedia" also suffers from this... I mean, 
> most of the packages are available under standard repos and just the ones 
> with "terse" licences need to be downloaded from external sources.

There's another category: some programs are available from the official
repos as well as dmo, which uses different build switches, or later
versions (e.g., ffmpeg, mplayer).

Celejar
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Re: How to recreate a dmraid RAID array with mdadm (was: no subject)

[Neil Brown]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 20:02:17 -0500
Mike Viau  wrote:

> 
> > On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:21:22 +1100  wrote:
> > > On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 01:50:42 -0500 Mike wrote:
> > > 
> > > How does one fix the problem of not having the array not starting at boot?
> > >
> >
> > To be able to answer that one would need to know exactly what is in the
> > initramfs. And unfortunately all distros are different and I'm not
> > particularly familiar with Ubuntu.
> >
> > Maybe if you
> > mkdir /tmp/initrd
> > cd /tmp/initrd
> > zcat /boot/initrd.img-2.6.32-5-amd64 | cpio -idv
> >
> > and then have a look around and particularly report etc/mdadm/mdadm.conf
> > and anything else that might be interesting.
> >
> > If the mdadm.conf in the initrd is the same as in /etc/mdadm, then it
> > *should* work.
> >
> 
> Thanks again Neil. I got a chance to examine my systems initramfs to discover 
> two differences in the local copy of mdadm.conf and the initramfs's copy.
> 
> The initramfs's copy contains:
> 
> DEVICE partitions
> HOMEHOST 
> ARRAY metadata=imsm UUID=084b969a:0808f5b8:6c784fb7:62659383
> ARRAY /dev/md/OneTB-RAID1-PV container=084b969a:0808f5b8:6c784fb7:62659383 
> member=0 UUID=ae4a1598:72267ed7:3b34867b:9c56497a
> 
> So both ARRAY lines got copied over to the initramfs's copy of mdadm.conf, but
> 
> CREATE owner=root group=disk mode=0660 auto=yes
> 
> and
> 
> MAILADDR root
> 
> were not carried over on the update-initramfs command.
> 
> 
> To your clearly better understanding of all this, does the CREATE stanza NEED 
> to be present in the initramfs's copy of mdadm.conf in order for the array to 
> be created on boot? If so, how can one accomplish this, so that the line is 
> added whenever a new initramfs is created for the kernel?

No, those differences couldn't explain it not working.

I would really expect that mdadm.conf file to successfully assemble the
RAID1.

As you have the same in /etc/mdadm/mdadm.conf you could see what is happening
by:

 mdadm -Ss

to stop all md arrays, then

 mdadm -Asvv

to auto-start everything in mdadm.conf and be verbose about that is happening.

If that fails to start the raid1, then the messages it produces will be
helpful in understanding why.
If it succeeds, then there must be something wrong with the initrd...
Maybe '/sbin/mdmon' is missing...  Or maybe it doesn't run
  mdadm -As
(or equivalently:  mdadm --assemble --scan)
but doesn't something else.  To determine what you would need to search for
'mdadm' in all the scripts in the initrd and see what turns up.

NeilBrown




> 
> 
> My diff findings between the local copy of mdadm.conf and the initramfs's 
> copy pasted at:
> http://debian.pastebin.com/5VNnd9g1
> 
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> 
> -M
> 


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Re: Why is troubleshooting Linux so hard?

[Miles Fidelman]

Borden Rhodes wrote:

Thank you for the response.  Indeed, you are correct in that my problem
isn't specific to Linux kernel troubleshooting (although I could
dedicate a website to things that don't work there) but with the
software that runs on Debian in general.

To clarify, the problem I have is when the computer freezes and crashes,
I forcibly restart the computer, and I try to trace what caused the
problem and cannot do so.  I pick through the dozens of files
in /var/log/ and cannot find any clues about what caused the crash.
Even if I can find a suspicious log entry or two, Googling them directs
me to bug reports and forum posts from 2006.  Almost none of these are
relevant to tracing what caused the problem.
   
Now that is a problem with a more focused solution - better crash 
dump/analysis tools.  The Linux kernel has always lagged behind Solaris 
and BSD variations in terms of built-in crash dump tools - it takes 
compiling a custom kernel to enable some of the Linux capabilities 
(particularly if you're running Xen).  Otherwise, about the only clue to 
be had about kernal panics is from the console - if you have a console 
that captures the panic message.


Sigh

Miles

--
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In  practice, there is.    Yogi Berra



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RE: How to recreate a dmraid RAID array with mdadm (was: no subject)

[Mike Viau]

> On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:21:22 +1100  wrote:
> > On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 01:50:42 -0500 Mike wrote:
> > 
> > How does one fix the problem of not having the array not starting at boot?
> >
>
> To be able to answer that one would need to know exactly what is in the
> initramfs. And unfortunately all distros are different and I'm not
> particularly familiar with Ubuntu.
>
> Maybe if you
> mkdir /tmp/initrd
> cd /tmp/initrd
> zcat /boot/initrd.img-2.6.32-5-amd64 | cpio -idv
>
> and then have a look around and particularly report etc/mdadm/mdadm.conf
> and anything else that might be interesting.
>
> If the mdadm.conf in the initrd is the same as in /etc/mdadm, then it
> *should* work.
>

Thanks again Neil. I got a chance to examine my systems initramfs to discover 
two differences in the local copy of mdadm.conf and the initramfs's copy.

The initramfs's copy contains:

DEVICE partitions
HOMEHOST 
ARRAY metadata=imsm UUID=084b969a:0808f5b8:6c784fb7:62659383
ARRAY /dev/md/OneTB-RAID1-PV container=084b969a:0808f5b8:6c784fb7:62659383 
member=0 UUID=ae4a1598:72267ed7:3b34867b:9c56497a

So both ARRAY lines got copied over to the initramfs's copy of mdadm.conf, but

CREATE owner=root group=disk mode=0660 auto=yes

and

MAILADDR root

were not carried over on the update-initramfs command.


To your clearly better understanding of all this, does the CREATE stanza NEED 
to be present in the initramfs's copy of mdadm.conf in order for the array to 
be created on boot? If so, how can one accomplish this, so that the line is 
added whenever a new initramfs is created for the kernel?


My diff findings between the local copy of mdadm.conf and the initramfs's copy 
pasted at:
http://debian.pastebin.com/5VNnd9g1


Thanks for your help.


-M
  

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Re: what is the use of -c parameter of column(1), can you demonstrate with an example?

[Phil Requirements]

On 2010-11-16 11:33:56 +0800, Zhang Weiwu wrote:
> On 11/03/2010 10:04 AM, Zhang Weiwu wrote:
> >  problem:
> >
> > The usage with -t is to form a table, which, although code level
> > implementation is similar to multi-column layout, in fact is a very
> > different usage than what is mentioned in the first paragraph.
> 
> Now I think the right move would be to add the -t parameter to the
> command it really belongs to: expand(1)
> 
> Quote from manual:
> 
> Convert tabs in each FILE to spaces, writing to standard output.
> With no FILE, or when FILE is -, read standard input.
> 
> The feature of expanding field separator to an automatically
> calculated value existed in column as a convenient (or lazy) design,
> not a usage-oriented design.

If I understand what you are saying, then I disagree with you.
The "column -t" utility is much more closely related to the
rest of the column utility than it is to expand.

"expand" is only for converting tabs to spaces. It does not try
to make pretty output that lines up in columns. It doesn't act
on anything but tabs.

Let's compare:

expand--> converts tabs to spaces
column--> takes a list and displays it in columns
column -t --> takes lines of data, splits each line, displays the result in 
columns

It seems to me that "expand" and "column -t" have very different
uses. Maybe I am not understanding your point?

Phil


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Re: Youtube in full-screen crash browsers.

[Camaleón]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 22:08:46 +, Artur Frydel wrote:

> From last apt-get update I have a little problem with Youtube films in
> full-screen mode. They crashes browsers. Iceweasel, google-chrome, or
> opera.. After setting film in fullscreen there is crash caused by
> libflashplayer.
> 
> Debian Lenny. Iceweasel in 3.06 version, google-chrome stable version.
> libflashplayer getting from apt-get install flashplugin-nonfree
> 
> Have you the same problems? How to fix this?

It works fine here. I am using lenny with "libflashplayer.so"  
10.2.161.23 from Adobe site (64 bits).

Try by removing cookies and browser's cache :-?

What I have noted is that Iceweasel crashes many often when entering into 
random flash-based sites :-/

Greetings,

-- 
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Re: How to check which package are from multimedia.org?

[Camaleón]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 15:13:21 -0500, Celejar wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 20:53:27 +0200 Andrei Popescu wrote:
> 
>> On Lu, 15 nov 10, 09:21:54, Celejar wrote:
>> > 
>> > Perhaps I took it the wrong way, but I thought that the maintainer
>> > could have been a bit more cooperative and sympathetic, given that
>> > we're dealing with a repo which is widely used and practically
>> > official, even though it technically isn't.
>> 
>> While I tend to agree with you, it seems to me DDs are not very
>> enthusiastic about work done outside the Debian Project. In most cases
>> their skepticism is justified (it's not just a case of NIH[1]).
> 
> But that's exactly the point!  Camaleón asked why someone wouldn't use
> dmo, and I responded by pointing out that there will be inevitable
> conflicts between packages from dmo and the official repos, and I noted
> that DDs may just brush you off if you report such problems.

The same you describe here is what happens in other distributions... in 
fact, external repositories ("community driven" ones) are always 
problematic to deal with in a way that some of these repos provide 
packages which conflicts with the stock ones (same package, different 
versions, usually with no restrictions -like codecs, etc...) and more 
often than we would like problems arise... and you can't go to the bug 
tracking system and complain there, devels will just tell you:

a) To contact the package owner to fix the bug
b) To install stock version of the package

Sad (from user's side), but understable (from a DD perspective).

But I didn't know "debian-multimedia" also suffers from this... I mean, 
most of the packages are available under standard repos and just the ones 
with "terse" licences need to be downloaded from external sources.

Greetings,

-- 
Camaleón


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Youtube in full-screen crash browsers.

[Artur Frydel]

Hi.

>From last apt-get update I have a little problem with Youtube films in
full-screen mode. They crashes browsers. Iceweasel, google-chrome, or
opera.. After setting film in fullscreen there is crash caused by
libflashplayer.

Debian Lenny. Iceweasel in 3.06 version, google-chrome stable version.
libflashplayer getting from apt-get install flashplugin-nonfree

Have you the same problems? How to fix this?

-- 
Artur 'Bzyk' Frydel
"Always look on the bright side of life."


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Re: Why is troubleshooting Linux so hard?

[Borden Rhodes]

Thank you for the response.  Indeed, you are correct in that my problem
isn't specific to Linux kernel troubleshooting (although I could
dedicate a website to things that don't work there) but with the
software that runs on Debian in general.

To clarify, the problem I have is when the computer freezes and crashes,
I forcibly restart the computer, and I try to trace what caused the
problem and cannot do so.  I pick through the dozens of files
in /var/log/ and cannot find any clues about what caused the crash.
Even if I can find a suspicious log entry or two, Googling them directs
me to bug reports and forum posts from 2006.  Almost none of these are
relevant to tracing what caused the problem.

I'm not asking that every piece of software that's ever been written be
fixed overnight as the proposed 'solution' implies.  Rather, I want to
have the information to be able to troubleshoot problems.  This will
also help the package maintainers and volunteers who dedicate their time
to helping plebs like me.

Why are there so many duplicate and incomplete bug reports and fora
which ask the same questions over and over?  I've been guilty of
submitting duplicate bug reports even after I spent an hour searching
Google to make sure it hadn't been reported or solved already.  I'm not
asking to be able to understand the error messages.  I'm asking for them
to be useful in a search or forum post so we can solve the problem and
help the other Linux users.

But how would such a utopian scheme be implemented?  Well, my training
is in accounting so I'll tell you how they solve these problems.  A
governing body, like the SEC or AICPA, recognises a problem in its
standards and rules which, for example, allowed Enron to get away with
what it did for as long as it did.  They sit down and they say 'this
shouldn't happen again if accountants do this.'  They pass a regulation
and they say 'anyone who wants to issue compliant financial statements
needs to play by these rules.' They don't chase down every practising
accountant and every registered company and convince them to use the new
standards.  They just tell them that, to be part of the club, they have
to play by the new rules.  Debian, to my understanding, works that way.
A package which doesn't follow the rules has a grave bug filed against
it and isn't included in the new release until it's fixed.  Why does it
have to be any more complicated for making error messages useful?

The suggestion is that a PhD-level mastery of computer science is not
necessary to find a problem in open source software; a thorough
understanding of source code, languages, architectures, engineering and
the esoteric disciplines which software is supposed to simplify should
suffice.  Ironically, it is on those topics which PhD candidates write
their dissertations so I don't see the difference.  Is the conclusion
that the only people who use GNU/Linux/FOSS software should also be able
to write the software themselves?  I have a working knowledge of C, Java
and a few other languages.  I can't even read the source code to the
simplest projects let alone figure out why it crashed on me!  And, no,
valgrind is not a solution to this problem either.  Valgrind is for
debugging programs in development, not as a shell in which to run every
program in case it crashes.

Example: Evolution just closed on me whilst I was writing this
e-mail.  .xsession-errors reports "(evolution:5186): Gtk-WARNING **: A
floating object was finalized. This means that someone
called g_object_unref() on an object that had only a floating
reference; the initial floating reference is not owned by anyone
and must be removed with g_object_ref_sink()."  The entry isn't time
stamped so I don't know whether it's relevant to the crash or not.  A
Google search on this message (predictably) produces no results.  A
modified Google search reveals 9 results, one from 2007, one from 2009
and one talking about pinning the calendar on the Ubuntu Netbook Remix
or something.  How much easier would it be to trace this crash if the
entry said "16 November 2010 16:12: Evolution: Illegal call to xyz_();
Error 0x1EE7: Debian hates you too" or something to that effect? That
way, I wouldn't have to burden the mailing list and bug reports with a
"now what do I do? This happens randomly but happened several times this
week" message!

I'm sorry for the length of this message.  I would use fewer words if I
knew which ones to cut and still retain the point.


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Re: Packages - what's the best way?

[Tyler Smith]

Bob Proulx  writes:

> Tyler Smith wrote:
>> Doesn't the 'ALL=(ALL) ALL' line give the user unlimited authority
>> anyways?
>
> It isn't about restricting privilege.  Both have superuser privilege.
> It is about the invocation environment.
>

I hadn't thought of that. Makes sense.

> Sure if you are the only one using your own machine and nothing else
> then it doesn't matter.  

I do have a habit of forgetting that not everyone is running a
single-user laptop!

>
>> Is there any security benefit to logging in as a user with
>> unlimited sudo access over just logging in as root?
>
> It isn't about security.  Although the need to share passwords with su
> makes it inherently less secure.
>

>
> Accident prevention is an important safeguard.  If you are operating
> with your normal command line editing environment then you are less
> likely to make mistakes.

Thanks for your comments. I'm still not sure about using 'ALL=(ALL) ALL'
in general, but at least I understand the other advantages of sudo over
su.

Cheers,

Tyler


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Re: Downgrading packages (with dependencies)

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

In <201011161438.54964.jesus.nava...@undominio.net>, Jesús M. Navarro wrote:
>Hi, Boyd:
>
>On Monday 15 November 2010 20:55:58 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
>> In <201011151334.06503.lukas.linh...@centrumholdings.com>, Lukas Linhart
>
>[...]
>
>> Downgrades aren't supported and can't reasonably be supported in general.
>> Specifically, it is impossible to modify the lower-versioned package to
>> account for changes brought in by the higher-versioned package.
>
>It's true that they are not currently supported on Debian, but I don't see
>that they can't be supported.
>
>Downgrade shouldn't be considered as an "upgrade, only to a lower version"

That is what a downgrade is, by definition.

>but more as of a rollback: regarding configs and binaries it seems not so
>complex; just recover whatever was there prior to the upgrade

That's something entirely different and intentionally not handled by the 
packaging system.  There are a few roll-your-own solutions available for 
Linux, but I don't know of something like Apple's Time Machine that works out-
of-the-box.

The critical difference is that the packaging system restricts it's actions to 
system-wide programs and data (and tries to concentrate as much as possible on 
static data; avoiding as much as possible data that is modified during normal 
operations), whereas a rollback has to include user-specific data which can be 
very dynamic.

Yes, you have to the user's data as well.  While packages don't install to 
/home, running programs often write there and files written by the higher 
versions of a program may not be readable by the lower versions of a program.

If you want rollbacks, get a system that handles rollbacks.  Don't expect the 
packaging system to do it as implicitly on a downgrade request.
-- 
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b...@iguanasuicide.net   ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
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Re: Packages - what's the best way?

[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.]

In <4ce196ad.2070...@googlemail.com>, tv.deb...@googlemail.com wrote:
>15/11/2010 21:01, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
>> In <20101115192606.gb18...@hysteria.proulx.com>, Bob Proulx wrote:
>>> * 'sudo' uses your user password while 'su' uses root's password.
>>> 
>>>  With sudo you manage your own password.  With su you manage both
>>>  your password *and* root's password.
>> 
>> For those that prefer using root's password, sudo has the TARGETPW option.
>
>Hi,
>I am no authority on the matter, but from my use of sudo I gathered that
>with "targetpw" the expected password is the one of the sudo target (-u
>), default to root but can be any user in a multi-user environment. To
>always have sudo ask for the root password one should use "rootpw".

You are very much correct.
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Re: Upgrade from Lenny to Squeeze

[Simon Hollenbach]

- Original message -
> I have a dual boot Windows XP / Lenny Toshiba Qosmio G25 laptop. I have 
> it setup for dual boot with XP on one hard drive and Linux on the other. 
> I wanted to upgrade to Squeeze. I ran an Aptitude upgrade by changing 
> Lenny to Squeeze in the /etc/apt/source.list file and then running the 
> usual update sequence. Everything worked except Postgresql 8.4 refused 
> to configure. After reading the bug reports I concluded that this is a 
> serious bug that isn't going away soon. So I burned a Squeeze Network 
> Installation Disk (6.1 beta) and attempted to install the new system 
> that way. The Squeeze disk didn't recognize the windows system and 
> trashed my boot files. I finally did a fresh installation using my old 
> Lenny Network Installation Disk. This corrected all of the problems but 
> leaves me back where I started.
> 
> Can anyone tell me how I can do this upgrade safely and effectively.
> 
> Gary R.
> 
> 
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Hello Gary,
restoring the ability to boot to Win from GRUB2 shouldnt be a problem. After 
having installed Squeeze, make sure os-prober is installed. #su #apt-get 
install os-prober
Afterwards by running #su #update-grub you ought see a line identifying your 
Win partition.

I hope that'll help
Simon

Upgrade from Lenny to Squeeze

[Gary Roach]

I have a dual boot Windows XP / Lenny Toshiba Qosmio G25 laptop. I have 
it setup for dual boot with XP on one hard drive and Linux on the other. 
I wanted to upgrade to Squeeze. I ran an Aptitude upgrade by changing 
Lenny to Squeeze in the /etc/apt/source.list file and then running the 
usual update sequence. Everything worked except Postgresql 8.4 refused 
to configure. After reading the bug reports I concluded that this is a 
serious bug that isn't going away soon. So I burned a Squeeze Network 
Installation Disk (6.1 beta) and attempted to install the new system 
that way. The Squeeze disk didn't recognize the windows system and 
trashed my boot files. I finally did a fresh installation using my old 
Lenny Network Installation Disk. This corrected all of the problems but 
leaves me back where I started.


Can anyone tell me how I can do this upgrade safely and effectively.

Gary R.


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Re: [OT] Re: atx mobo that isn't atx

[Hugo Vanwoerkom]

Camaleón wrote:

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 12:46:43 -0600, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:


In the process of installing asus M4N98TD EVO ATX mobo, I discovered
that the one I am replacing, an Epox 8VTAI, says it's ATX but it isn't:
it's 305mmx210mm and that is nothing that I recognize.


After digging a bit with Google, it seems that "305x210mm" form factor 
motherboards are called "narrowed ATX"... not sure if they fit to any 
standard, though, but many manufacturers are providing such boards 
nowadays :-?




Mobo is 5 years old. See quite a few mobo's 305x210, still. Missed the 
"narrowed atx" though. Thanks.


Hugo


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Re: How to check which package are from multimedia.org?

[Celejar]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 20:53:27 +0200
Andrei Popescu  wrote:

> On Lu, 15 nov 10, 09:21:54, Celejar wrote:
> > 
> > Perhaps I took it the wrong way, but I thought that the maintainer
> > could have been a bit more cooperative and sympathetic, given that
> > we're dealing with a repo which is widely used and practically
> > official, even though it technically isn't.
> 
> While I tend to agree with you, it seems to me DDs are not very 
> enthusiastic about work done outside the Debian Project. In most cases 
> their skepticism is justified (it's not just a case of NIH[1]).

But that's exactly the point!  Camaleón asked why someone wouldn't use
dmo, and I responded by pointing out that there will be inevitable
conflicts between packages from dmo and the official repos, and I noted
that DDs may just brush you off if you report such problems.

Celejar
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Re: Error loading operating system

[Celejar]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 15:56:12 +0100
Arnt Karlsen  wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 21:12:37 -0500, Celejar wrote in message 
> <20101115211237.ad4d60f6.cele...@gmail.com>:
> 
> > On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 22:08:42 +0100
> > Arnt Karlsen  wrote:
> > 
> > > On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:20:02 -0400, Stefan wrote in message 
> > > :
> > > 
> > > > > sda1 /10Gb
> > > 
> > > ..overkill.
> > > 
> > > > > sda2 /usr   10Gb
> > > 
> > > ..unless this is a single purpose server, 
> > > you will want much more, e.g. 50G.
> > 
> > 50Gb for /usr?!  Why?!
> 
> ..I installed _everything_ until Lenny, and 
> played around and reported mostly conflict 
> bugs.  And, Sid provides a softer growth than 
> the dist-upgrade disk usage shocks. ;o)
> 
> ..most people will want "comfy space" to play 
> around in and learn, these days that's easily
> 20GB, and for your next machine in say 5 years,
> easily 50GB. 

This still seems very high.  My /usr currently uses 2GB, and while I
admit I'm pretty parsimonious, I really don't see the point in 20.
HDDs are large today, but my machine only has 60.

> > > > > sda3 /var   10 Gb
> > > 
> > > ..for a server, you want much more, I use 
> > > 22G for a lan web server.
> > 
> > Why?  What's in your var?
> 
> .. mount points for /var/www and var/log 
> (22GB and 2.2GB), 1.6GB in var/tmp, 
> 1.3GB in /var/lib, 179MB in /var/cache and 
> 120MB in /var/mail, to name the big ones.

Yes, I understand a few GB for /var/log, but many webservers aren't
serving anything close to 20 GB of content.

Celejar
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Mplayer exit with kernel error

[Nils Erik Svangård]

Hello!
I got a strange error on my system while quitting mplayer.
How do I find out what is the root cause of the error?
/nisse

Message from sysl...@p-nisse at Nov 16 20:25:07 ...
 kernel:[806234.487015] Process mplayer (pid: 1465, ti=f273a000
task=f65414a0 task.ti=f273a000)

Message from sysl...@p-nisse at Nov 16 20:25:07 ...
 kernel:[806234.487017] Stack:

Message from sysl...@p-nisse at Nov 16 20:25:07 ...
 kernel:[806234.487036] Call Trace:
ni...@p-nisse:/media/Brandstation/Backups/Down Under/Push It Down On
Me/Scandnavian Masterpieces/SMP CD 1$
Message from sysl...@p-nisse at Nov 16 20:25:07 ...
 kernel:[806234.487108] Code: 89 c3 8d 70 0c 39 70 0c 74 0f ba 51 00
00 00 b8 5d 2b 37 c1 e8 59 8d ef ff 8b 07 83 e8 04 eb 0b 8b 28 39 2b
7c 13 8d 42 fc 74 1f <8b> 50 04 0f 18 02 90 8d 48 04 39 f9 75 e7 8b 50
08 8d 7b 04 89

Message from sysl...@p-nisse at Nov 16 20:25:07 ...
 kernel:[806234.487137] EIP: [] plist_add+0x31/0x66 SS:ESP
0068:f273be5c

Message from sysl...@p-nisse at Nov 16 20:25:07 ...
 kernel:[806234.487141] CR2: 8bc38953


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[OT] Re: atx mobo that isn't atx

[Camaleón]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 12:46:43 -0600, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:

> In the process of installing asus M4N98TD EVO ATX mobo, I discovered
> that the one I am replacing, an Epox 8VTAI, says it's ATX but it isn't:
> it's 305mmx210mm and that is nothing that I recognize.

After digging a bit with Google, it seems that "305x210mm" form factor 
motherboards are called "narrowed ATX"... not sure if they fit to any 
standard, though, but many manufacturers are providing such boards 
nowadays :-?

Greetings,

-- 
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Re: Packages - what's the best way?

[Kjetil brinchmann Halvorsen]

see below.

On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 00:54, Bob Proulx  wrote:
> Rob Hurle wrote:
>> Does anyone have advice on the best way to handle a .deb package?
>
> The easiest way is to not handle .deb files at all.  Instead allow
> apt-get to install the package and any dependencies from the network.
>
>> Can I make up my own repository of .deb packages and point apt-get
>> at that to install packages?
>
> Yes.  Many of us do that for packages that we create ourselves.  But
> if you are new to Debian then this isn't something I recommend for you
> to do yet.  Get some familiarity with the system before trying such
> advanced topics.
>
>> I've installed one or two small things (gcc and gnu make) using
>> dpkg, but I wondered if there was a better way to do this.
>
> What!?  Why?  In the future just use apt-get to install things that
> you want.
>
>  $ sudo apt-get update
>  $ sudo apt-get install gcc
>  $ sudo apt-get install make
>
> If you are compiling programs then you will want to install the
> build-essential package at the least to pull in many of the tools that
> you need.
>
>  $ sudo apt-get install build-essential

Instead of first installing dependencies, you can do
sudo apt-get install auto-apt
sudo auto-apt -y -q run ./configure

...

Kjetil

>
> And if you have a package in mind that you want to tinker with and to
> rebuild yourself in different ways then you can install all of the
> build dependencies for that package.
>
>  $ sudo apt-get build-dep grep
>  $ sudo apt-get build-dep coreutils
>  $ sudo apt-get build-dep whatever
>
> And if 'sudo' isn't configured for you then that is the first thing
> that you will want to do. :-)
>
>  # visudo
>  rob     ALL=(ALL) ALL
>
>> I've just downloaded opera and it comes in a .deb package, so this
>> is my next task.  apt or dpkg - or even synaptic?
>
> Yes.  For Opera on Debian see the instructions on the wiki which go
> into detail what you should do.
>
>  http://wiki.debian.org/Opera
>
> Bob
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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>
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> tvMAn3W5nrIQr37NQxUUzxX3mAP7ykHv
> =vMGg
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>



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human face - forever."

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Re: can't read asus support dvd

[Camaleón]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 12:43:29 -0600, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:

> Camaleón wrote:

>>> Disk is spotless.
>>> Original manufacturer's disk
>> 
>> Try the DVD media in another DVD device.
>> 
>> 
> Bingo! Mounts just fine on laptop with Lenny!

Hmmm, then... what could be conclude? A strange incompatibility between 
your HP DVD drive and Asus DVD media?

- HP unit can read other DVD media
- HP unit cannot read Asus DVD
- Asus DVD reads fine in another computer

I have read awful stories about firmware revisions that disallow DVD 
devices from reading some kind of media but... who knows :-?

That's why I hate managing optical discs and optical devices: hard to 
debug and very unfriendly to deal with :-)

Greetings,

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Re: 3D acceleration on ATI

[Andrei Popescu]

On Lu, 15 nov 10, 20:33:27, Sthu Deus wrote:
> Thank You for Your time and answer, Andrei:
> 
> > Pure or do you have any packages from backports or so (especially 
> > kernel)? Please also post the complete /var/log/Xorg.0.log
> 
> That's what I have from backports, kernel included:
...
> linux-image-2.6.32-bpo.5-amd64
...

Indeed.

> Do You want me to post Xorg log right here? - for it is huge, or I can
> attach it?

Try first with the kernel from stable. If it doesn't work you can attach 
the full Xorg.0.log (maybe gzipped if the difference is significant).

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: How to check which package are from multimedia.org?

[Andrei Popescu]

On Lu, 15 nov 10, 09:21:54, Celejar wrote:
> 
> Perhaps I took it the wrong way, but I thought that the maintainer
> could have been a bit more cooperative and sympathetic, given that
> we're dealing with a repo which is widely used and practically
> official, even though it technically isn't.

While I tend to agree with you, it seems to me DDs are not very 
enthusiastic about work done outside the Debian Project. In most cases 
their skepticism is justified (it's not just a case of NIH[1]).

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Invented_Here

Regards,
Andrei
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atx mobo that isn't atx

[Hugo Vanwoerkom]

Hi,

In the process of installing asus M4N98TD EVO ATX mobo, I discovered 
that the one I am replacing, an Epox 8VTAI, says it's ATX but it isn't: 
it's 305mmx210mm and that is nothing that I recognize.


Hugo


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Re: can't read asus support dvd

[Hugo Vanwoerkom]

Camaleón wrote:

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 11:01:41 -0600, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:


teddieeb wrote:

I'm assuming you checked this already;

But is the disk filthy or scratched to heck and back??

I dunno that I've ever seen LBA Errors from a CD... Is this disk
original manufacture's disk or home made "burned" copy?



Disk is spotless.
Original manufacturer's disk


Try the DVD media in another DVD device.



Bingo! Mounts just fine on laptop with Lenny!





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Re: Conversion to Ext4 in LVM

[Mike Castle]

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 10:47 PM, Didar Hossain  wrote:
> Personally, I would not recommend converting, but, rather creating a
> separate partition
> for ext4 to test it out.

For my use case, in order to get the benefits for using ext4 over
ext3, it worked better to create a new filesystem with ext4 and move
all of the data onto it and them removing the old filesystem.

mrc


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Re: can't read asus support dvd

[Preston Boyington]

teddi...@tmo.blackberry.net wrote:

I'm assuming you checked this already;

But is the disk filthy or scratched to heck and back??



as an aside, most people flip the CD over to keep from scratching the 
bottom when it's laying around out of the jewel case/sleeve not 
realizing that the top has a much thinner level of protection.


a scratch on the top is more difficult to fix than a scratch on the 
bottom in the thicker lacquer.



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Re: can't read asus support dvd

[Camaleón]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 11:01:41 -0600, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:

> teddieeb wrote:
>> I'm assuming you checked this already;
>> 
>> But is the disk filthy or scratched to heck and back??
>> 
>> I dunno that I've ever seen LBA Errors from a CD... Is this disk
>> original manufacture's disk or home made "burned" copy?
>> 
>> 
> Disk is spotless.
> Original manufacturer's disk

Try the DVD media in another DVD device.

If it's a bootable DVD you can also load and boot from it (be very 
cautelous with this option, just quit as soon as you can to avoid 
installing -or overwriting- anything).

Greetings,

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Re: can't read asus support dvd

[Hugo Vanwoerkom]

teddi...@tmo.blackberry.net wrote:

I'm assuming you checked this already;

But is the disk filthy or scratched to heck and back??

I dunno that I've ever seen LBA Errors from a CD... Is this disk original manufacture's 
disk or home made "burned" copy?



Disk is spotless.
Original manufacturer's disk

Hugo


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Re: can't read asus support dvd

[teddieeb]

I'm assuming you checked this already;

But is the disk filthy or scratched to heck and back??

I dunno that I've ever seen LBA Errors from a CD... Is this disk original 
manufacture's disk or home made "burned" copy?

TeddyB

-Original Message-
From: Hugo Vanwoerkom 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 10:21:58 
To: 
Subject: Re: can't read asus support dvd

Camaleón wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 08:58:11 -0600, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
>
>> I bought an asus M4N98TD EVO mobo and it comes with a (windoze) install
>> DVD that says DVD ROM up front.
>
> Quick, drop that thing or will hypnose you! :-P
>
>> I put it in the '0  dev='/dev/scd0' rwrw-- : 'HP' 'DVD Writer 1140r'
>> ' and I get errors.
>>
>> Is it a bad DVD or is it some special format only for windoze?
>
> Weird. What error are you getting? Have you tried with another DVD media?
>

Other DVD's are OK. Errors:

...
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.697981] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Result:
hostbyte=DID_OK driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.697987] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Sense
Key : Illegal Request [current]
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.697993] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Add.
Sense: Logical block address out of range
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.697999] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] CDB:
Read(10): 28 00 00 a0 00 e0 00 00 02 00
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.698008] end_request: I/O error,
dev sr0, sector 41943936
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.698345] __ratelimit: 19 callbacks
suppressed
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.698349] Buffer I/O error on device
sr0, logical block 5242992
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.700839] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Result:
hostbyte=DID_OK driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.700847] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Sense
Key : Illegal Request [current]
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.700851] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Add.
Sense: Logical block address out of range
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.700858] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] CDB:
Read(10): 28 00 00 a0 00 e0 00 00 02 00
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.700866] end_request: I/O error,
dev sr0, sector 41943936
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.701206] Buffer I/O error on device
sr0, logical block 5242992
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.704597] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Result:
hostbyte=DID_OK driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.704605] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Sense
Key : Illegal Request [current]
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.704609] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Add.
Sense: Logical block address out of range
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.704616] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] CDB:
Read(10): 28 00 00 a0 00 fc 00 00 02 00
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.704625] end_request: I/O error,
dev sr0, sector 41944048
...

Hugo


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Re: can't read asus support dvd

[Hugo Vanwoerkom]

Camaleón wrote:

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 08:58:11 -0600, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:


I bought an asus M4N98TD EVO mobo and it comes with a (windoze) install
DVD that says DVD ROM up front.


Quick, drop that thing or will hypnose you! :-P
 

I put it in the '0  dev='/dev/scd0' rwrw-- : 'HP' 'DVD Writer 1140r'
' and I get errors.

Is it a bad DVD or is it some special format only for windoze?


Weird. What error are you getting? Have you tried with another DVD media?



Other DVD's are OK. Errors:

...
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.697981] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Result:
hostbyte=DID_OK driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.697987] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Sense
Key : Illegal Request [current]
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.697993] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Add.
Sense: Logical block address out of range
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.697999] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] CDB:
Read(10): 28 00 00 a0 00 e0 00 00 02 00
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.698008] end_request: I/O error,
dev sr0, sector 41943936
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.698345] __ratelimit: 19 callbacks
suppressed
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.698349] Buffer I/O error on device
sr0, logical block 5242992
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.700839] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Result:
hostbyte=DID_OK driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.700847] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Sense
Key : Illegal Request [current]
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.700851] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Add.
Sense: Logical block address out of range
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.700858] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] CDB:
Read(10): 28 00 00 a0 00 e0 00 00 02 00
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.700866] end_request: I/O error,
dev sr0, sector 41943936
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.701206] Buffer I/O error on device
sr0, logical block 5242992
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.704597] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Result:
hostbyte=DID_OK driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.704605] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Sense
Key : Illegal Request [current]
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.704609] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] Add.
Sense: Logical block address out of range
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.704616] sr 1:0:1:0: [sr0] CDB:
Read(10): 28 00 00 a0 00 fc 00 00 02 00
Nov 16 07:47:01 Debian kernel: [  932.704625] end_request: I/O error,
dev sr0, sector 41944048
...

Hugo


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Re: can't read asus support dvd

[Camaleón]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 08:58:11 -0600, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:

> I bought an asus M4N98TD EVO mobo and it comes with a (windoze) install
> DVD that says DVD ROM up front.

Quick, drop that thing or will hypnose you! :-P
 
> I put it in the '0  dev='/dev/scd0' rwrw-- : 'HP' 'DVD Writer 1140r'
> ' and I get errors.
> 
> Is it a bad DVD or is it some special format only for windoze?

Weird. What error are you getting? Have you tried with another DVD media?

Greetings,

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Re: linux-image for i586

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 14:17:12 +0700, Sthu wrote in message 
<4ce23002.d07b0e0a.6484.2...@mx.google.com>:

> Thank You for Your time and answer, Arnt:
> 
> > beware that some processes grabs _every_ damned bit 
> > of memory it can get
> 
> Can You bring here an example f such behavior?

..try put motion on an AMD k6-2 machine with an i486 kernel 
and point the web camera at the rush traffic and watch the 
fun pile-up, pictures in a web browser and e.g. htop thru 
ssh, then go play with swapon etc. ;o)

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..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.


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Re: Downgrading packages (with dependencies)

[Jesús M. Navarro]

Hi, Boyd:

On Monday 15 November 2010 20:55:58 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> In <201011151334.06503.lukas.linh...@centrumholdings.com>, Lukas Linhart
[...]

> Downgrades aren't supported and can't reasonably be supported in general.
> Specifically, it is impossible to modify the lower-versioned package to
> account for changes brought in by the higher-versioned package.

It's true that they are not currently supported on Debian, but I don't see 
that they can't be supported.

Downgrade shouldn't be considered as an "upgrade, only to a lower version" but 
more as of a rollback: regarding configs and binaries it seems not so 
complex; just recover whatever was there prior to the upgrade; regarding 
formatted data (i.e. a database), yes, there is a problem, since there's no 
guarantee that the old data model will be able to hold data added by the new 
one but, again, considered as a rollback it's affordable: you can recover 
whatever data was by the upgrade time (or you can add a manual hook akind of 
that when a config conflict is detected, so the user can manually handle it).

Cheers.


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RE: Downgrading packages (with dependencies)

[Linhart Lukas]

> Then I'm afraid you'll receive more advice in "debian-devel" :-)

Oh, I'll perhaps try. Thanks.

> I find the concept interesting.

> First, because I was not aware that a metapackage could be "itself" up/
> downgraded :-?

"metapackage"is usial package, not virtual package.

> Second, because if I understood your point correctly, you are looking for
> a chain-downgrade that force the user to auto-install an old version of
> single packages due to metapackage dependencies...

Yes.

> Are you suggesting that when the user downgrades to "my-
> meta-0.9" (is that even possible?) it automatically downgrades the other
> packages it depends on?

> Then, what happens if a user wants to keep (or even "upgrade") separately
> one of the "my-meta1-sub1"? 

Than he has to uninstall metapackage, as he will not fullfill dependency 
requierments. Also, he will end up with unworky packages and he will have 
combination of apps that is not supported.

> AFAIK,
> a metapackage is just a heap of packages that are to be installed but
> each package has its own dependencies and requirements to be fulfilled,
> so I wonder if a metapackage has its own entity inside the packaging
> system...

Again, this is probably bad term, I'm not talking about virtual packages. 

> Camaleón

Almad


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Re: Problem with gnome in recovered squeeze system

[Camaleón]

On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:38:07 -0800, Peter Tenenbaum wrote:

> Never mind.  JFGI.  Had to chmod 777 on /tmp.  I now appear to have a
> normal session on my computer, woo hoo!

Don't forget the "sticky bit" as Jochen suggested.

Greetings,

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Re: Problem with gnome in recovered squeeze system

[Jochen Schulz]

Peter Tenenbaum:
>
> Never mind.  JFGI.

True. :)

> Had to chmod 777 on /tmp.

/tmp usually has the sticky bit set. That makes sure that nobody can
delete other peoples' files.

J.
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