Re: flakey wifi access

[mett]

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 06:39:29 -0400
ken  wrote:

> On 06/29/2014 10:50 PM tom arnall wrote:
> > my wicd agent is unable to connect to wifi at mcDonald's, both in
> > mexico and the states. it's fine with my home wifi and the coffee
> > shop i go to. it also fails on the network at the campus where i
> > teach in mexico.
> 
> "Unable to connect" can mean a lot of things.  I recently had a wifi 
> connection problem which, using 'ping', I determined to be caused by
> a lot of packets being dropped-- like 30 - 60% of them.  I found that
> ping will return a response in some cases even when it seems there is
> no connection.  You'll need to find out the IP address of the access
> point (AP).  If your system doesn't tell you this, you might ask some
> other user.  Get rates from all APs, working and non-working, and
> compare them.
> 
> Another utility to use is tcpdump.  This will provide very detailed 
> information about the packets constituting the connection attempt.
> 
> And iwlist will provide info on the available APs.  Noting the
> relative signal strengths and protocols used and other details might
> point to patterns.
> 
> 


You can try to go the "manual" way to see if you get better results:

-bring up your wireless interface, if it s not already up
 
'ifconfig' (if it doesn't appear here, means it is not up)

'ifconfig -a' (you should see it here, as this command lists all the
available physical interfaces on your machine. Then) 

'ifconfig WIRELESS-INTERFACE-NAME up' (to bring it up).

-Then, once up, you can, as ken said, use iwlist to know about the AP
in your vicinity

'iwlist scan'

You should see mac-donald's AP essid name in the list you get from
iwlist.

-Finally, for mac-donalds, I saw on their page they re isn't any
encryption and password to connect to their AP, so you just need to run
 
'iwconfig WIRELESS-INTERFACE-NAME essid MACDO-ESSID-NAME'

and then dhclient to get an IP(with the -v flag to be sure you
obtained an IP address)

'dhclient -v WIRELESS-INTERFACE-NAME'

-Finally_2, open your browser and you should see mac-do HP, 
and a 'connect' button to connect from there.


There is a detailed explanation to connect manually on crunchbang,
under the three main methods (no password and no encryption, or WEP or
WPA). Here is the link
http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=16624

Also, you might have to use 'sudo' for all those commands as you need
to be the root user to run them.

Also_2, stop all the other wifi-network-related daemons as they might
get in the way when you try to config manually(wicd and others if you
have).

HTH


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Re: OT: programming languages

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 17:47:34 -0400
Tony Baldwin  wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 12:40:28PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> > Joe wrote:
> > >On Sun, 29 Jun 2014 15:46:58 +0100
> > >Tom Furie  wrote:
> > >
> > >>On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 11:41:57PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>Programming belongs on any Linux list, especially since a lot of
> > >>>times you need to code to get things done. Dare you to configure
> > >>>dwm without coding.
> > >>However, there is a difference between discussing code in the
> > >>context of a solution to a problem and discussing coding and
> > >>langauges in general.
> > >>
> > >Indeed, but the name of the list is 'debian-user', not 'Debian':
> > >it's about us, not about the OS. A subject is off-topic here if it
> > >is [likely to be] of no concern to Debian users, not merely if it
> > >is not specific to the Debian operating system.
> > >
> > >Debian users might well be interested in better ways to administer
> > >and configure their Debian systems, even when such methods are not
> > >applicable *only* to Debian.
> > >
> > 
> > So please... get of your high horse.
> > 
> > Miles Fidelman
> 
> 
> So, are we going to discuss languages? Or just discussion the
> relevance of such discussion on the list?
> 
> Personally, I like tcl, bash, and ruby for scripting stuff (bash is a
> no-brainer of course), although I've only started to play with ruby
> recently.
> I really have no perl fu at all.
> A lot of stuff other folks do with perl, I end up doing with
> bash/sed/awk.
> I started playing with tcl about 7 or 8 years ago, and found it was
> really easy to learn and make useful stuff with fairly quickly.
> I don't understand why it isn't more popular (although it IS widely
> used, just not sexy for the hipster kids, who apparently do like ruby,
> and stuff like haskell, or whatever).
> 
> tony

If I need to do one-off parsing and move on to other things, I often
use awk. If the job's too complex for awk, pipe awk into sort into
another awk, etc. If it's still too quick, use Python. I do a lot of
template/token stuff with Python, including the diploma maker I use to
give all my students diplomas.

Yeah, Bash. I once made an entire playlist handler that would play
almost anything, including midi files, complete with going back and
forward 10 seconds or a minute, with a couple Bash scripts that
communicated with each other via a FIFO and kill commands to send each
other sigusr1 and sigusr2. I use that system several times a week.

Same thing with my system to digitize vinyl records. Pipes to send
info, and kill signals to tell each other the info's ready. My friends
think I'm insane, but it works well.

Oh, and here's what I use for CPU stress and temperature testing:

http://troubleshooters.com/codecorn/primenumbers/primenumbers.htm#_The_Bit_Array_Improvement

If that doesn't burn it up, nothing will.

I'm thinking of looking at tcl/tk for quickie GUI stuff. So far I've
used Lazarus for GUI. Works great, develops quick, but the executables
are huge.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: dpkg-deb: error: subprocess paste was killed by signal (Broken pipe)

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Jul 01, 2014 at 03:08:54AM +0200, Tamer Higazi wrote:
> Hi people!
> I really don't know, how to solve this problem. Does any of you have an
> idea ?!
> 
> 
> 
> root@babe3306:/home/tamer# apt-get install -f
> Preparing to unpack .../libsope1_2.2.5-1_amd64.deb ...
> Unpacking libsope1 (2.2.5-1) ...
> dpkg: error processing archive
> /var/cache/apt/archives/libsope1_2.2.5-1_amd64.deb (--unpack):
>  trying to overwrite '/usr/lib/libDOM.so.4.9.24', which is also in
> package libsope-xml4.9 4.9.r1664.20140307

There's your problem, obviously two packages can't provide the same file.

Where did you get libsope-xml4.9 from? 

https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=libsope-xml4.9&searchon=names&suite=all§ion=all

produces:

Sorry, your search gave no results

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Re: dpkg-deb: error: subprocess paste was killed by signal (Broken pipe)

[Don Armstrong]

On Tue, 01 Jul 2014, Tamer Higazi wrote:
> root@babe3306:/home/tamer# apt-get install -f

[...]

> Preparing to unpack .../libsope1_2.2.5-1_amd64.deb ...
> Unpacking libsope1 (2.2.5-1) ...
> dpkg: error processing archive
> /var/cache/apt/archives/libsope1_2.2.5-1_amd64.deb (--unpack):
>  trying to overwrite '/usr/lib/libDOM.so.4.9.24', which is also in
> package libsope-xml4.9 4.9.r1664.20140307
> dpkg-deb: error: subprocess paste was killed by signal (Broken pipe)
> Errors were encountered while processing:
>  /var/cache/apt/archives/libsope1_2.2.5-1_amd64.deb
> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
> root@babe3306:/home/tamer#

libsope-xml4.9 was never in Debian.

I'm going to guess that you got it from Ubuntu or somewhere else. Remove
it, and then you can install libsope1.

Alternatively, use

apt-get -o DPkg::Options::="--force-overwrite" install libsope1

to enable libDOM.so.4.9.24 to be overwritten.


-- 
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Where am I? THE VILLAGE. What do you want? INFORMATION. Which side are
you on? THAT WOULD BE TELLING. WE WANT INFORMATION. INFORMATION.
INFORMATION. You won't get it! BY HOOK OR BY CROOK, WE WILL. Who are
you? THE NEW NUMBER 2. Who is Number 1? YOU ARE NUMBER 6. I am not a
number! I am a free man! HAHAHAHAHAHA.
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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)

[Rusi Mody]

On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 3:40:02 AM UTC+5:30, Tom H wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Brian wrote:
> > On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 14:05:10 -0400, Tom H wrote:
> >> On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Rusi Mody wrote:
> >>> I use the grub command configfile (also multiboot).
> >>> What do they do? Where are they documented?
> >>> [I got the tips on usage on the grub mailing list]
> >> I don't know whether configfile and multiboot are documented in the
> >> info pages (I find info unusable) but this is the upstream grub
> >> manual:
> > A few years ago the complaints about grub's documentation were possibly
> > justified. Today, less so, And even if there are improvements which can
> > made it is hardly a justification for the "bring back grub legacy and
> > give us abandoned software" faction to be considered at all seriously.
> > configfile is documented in the info pages. The multiboot command
> > replaces the kernel command; you're on your own with that!

> Why do you think that grub2's multiboot replaces grub1's kernel?

> Its main use is to load the core.img of another grub2 install. I don't
> think that you can load a kernel with it.

The grub guys explaining (to me!) the configfile and multiboot commands:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-grub/2011-01/msg00029.html

I really dont want to get into the quality of docs argument.
Just giving the above to offset the claim that grub devs are 'patronizing' --
this has not been my experience


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dpkg-deb: error: subprocess paste was killed by signal (Broken pipe)

[Tamer Higazi]

Hi people!
I really don't know, how to solve this problem. Does any of you have an
idea ?!



root@babe3306:/home/tamer# apt-get install -f
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree   
Reading state information... Done
Correcting dependencies... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
  libsope1
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  libsope1
0 upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 54 not upgraded.
5 not fully installed or removed.
Need to get 0 B/1883 kB of archives.
After this operation, 9527 kB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] Y
(Reading database ... 220104 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack .../libsope1_2.2.5-1_amd64.deb ...
Unpacking libsope1 (2.2.5-1) ...
dpkg: error processing archive
/var/cache/apt/archives/libsope1_2.2.5-1_amd64.deb (--unpack):
 trying to overwrite '/usr/lib/libDOM.so.4.9.24', which is also in
package libsope-xml4.9 4.9.r1664.20140307
dpkg-deb: error: subprocess paste was killed by signal (Broken pipe)
Errors were encountered while processing:
 /var/cache/apt/archives/libsope1_2.2.5-1_amd64.deb
E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
root@babe3306:/home/tamer#




I have latest debian testing running, and don't know how to get that one
solved.



Thanks!


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Re: flakey wifi access

[Bzzzz]

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 17:43:14 -0700
Matt Ventura  wrote:

> In my case, the issue was with the underlying driver with the card
> plus wicd's poor handling of failures. The connection would drop,
> but wicd would continue to try to do DHCP on the connection, so it

There may be something else (in sid) different: several weeks
ago, I set a USB wifi dongle which work perfectly with hosatpd
and wavemon.

Some few weeks ago, wavemon stopped to work, responding
"device doesn't support scan" just after an upgrade:(

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Re: flakey wifi access

[Matt Ventura]

On 6/30/2014 5:20 PM, Brian Flaherty wrote:

On 06/29/2014 07:50 PM, tom arnall wrote:

my wicd agent is unable to connect to wifi at mcDonald's, both in
mexico and the states. it's fine with my home wifi and the coffee shop
i go to. it also fails on the network at the campus where i teach in
mexico.




I had used wicd for months without problems, but last spring, I was 
unable to get on a WPA/WPA2 access point. The password was correct. 
Several other devices were connected. After a few days, I was able to 
get a cable connection and install networkmanager. I tried it and 
worked without problem. Didn't have time to work out what the issue 
was and I'm still just using networkmanager.




In my case, the issue was with the underlying driver with the card plus 
wicd's poor handling of failures. The connection would drop, but wicd 
would continue to try to do DHCP on the connection, so it would sit 
there for a while spinning its wheels. Networkmanager would actually see 
the failures and restart the connection process until it worked. Using 
NM instead of wicd can be a good way to cover up driver issues.



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Re: flakey wifi access

[Brian Flaherty]

On 06/29/2014 07:50 PM, tom arnall wrote:

my wicd agent is unable to connect to wifi at mcDonald's, both in
mexico and the states. it's fine with my home wifi and the coffee shop
i go to. it also fails on the network at the campus where i teach in
mexico.




I had used wicd for months without problems, but last spring, I was 
unable to get on a WPA/WPA2 access point. The password was correct. 
Several other devices were connected. After a few days, I was able to 
get a cable connection and install networkmanager. I tried it and worked 
without problem. Didn't have time to work out what the issue was and I'm 
still just using networkmanager.




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Re: GTK crashing X?

[Matt Ventura]

On 6/30/2014 4:29 PM, Brian wrote:

On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 15:41:48 -0700, Matt Ventura wrote:


The card shows up as:
01:09.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
[AMD/ATI] Rage XL PCI (rev 27)

I'm hesitant to apt-get --purge autoremove since it wants to remove systemd.

If I install xorg and fvwm, it works fine. I can run xclock, it
shows up, and I can move it around.
When I install xfce4, then startx crashes with the segfault at 0xc,
signal 11.

You weigh up

http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse-bugs/2014-02/msg02602.html

and the links in it and see if there is anything comparable in the BTS.
Then go from there.



Thanks, the "ExaNoComposite" option worked for me.


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Re: GTK crashing X?

[Brian]

On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 15:41:48 -0700, Matt Ventura wrote:

> The card shows up as:
> 01:09.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
> [AMD/ATI] Rage XL PCI (rev 27)
> 
> I'm hesitant to apt-get --purge autoremove since it wants to remove systemd.
> 
> If I install xorg and fvwm, it works fine. I can run xclock, it
> shows up, and I can move it around.
> When I install xfce4, then startx crashes with the segfault at 0xc,
> signal 11.

You weigh up

   http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse-bugs/2014-02/msg02602.html

and the links in it and see if there is anything comparable in the BTS.
Then go from there.


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Re: GTK crashing X?

[Matt Ventura]

On 6/30/2014 2:54 PM, Brian wrote:

On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 13:12:01 -0700, Matt Ventura wrote:


On 6/30/2014 10:43 AM, Brian wrote:

6. Hopefully report success. :)



...

Could be hardware, I suppose. Switch to a tty with CTL-ALT-F1. Login as a
user and get the video card data from the command 'lspci'.

While you are out of X ALT-F2 gives you another console to log in as
root and remove lightdm with

apt-get purge lightdm

Because I like to be tidy I'd now return the machine to a more or less
basic configuration

apt-get purge fonts* x11-* dbus xfce4*

followed by

apt-get --purge autoremove

Now

apt-get install xorg fvwm

and, as a user

startx

How does this go? If ok 'apt-get install xfce4' and 'startx'.



The card shows up as:
01:09.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. 
[AMD/ATI] Rage XL PCI (rev 27)


I'm hesitant to apt-get --purge autoremove since it wants to remove systemd.

If I install xorg and fvwm, it works fine. I can run xclock, it shows 
up, and I can move it around.
When I install xfce4, then startx crashes with the segfault at 0xc, 
signal 11.





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Re: Virtualized desktop

[green]

Jimmy Thrasibule wrote at 2014-06-28 06:52 -0500:
> Then came the idea to virtualize everything. Make both computers a
> hypervisor cluster (using Xen or KVM) and run all systems virtualized.
> But at which point can this be done for desktop system?

You may be interested in .


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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)

[Tom H]

On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Brian  wrote:
> On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 14:05:10 -0400, Tom H wrote:
>> On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Rusi Mody  wrote:
>>>
>>> I use the grub command configfile (also multiboot).
>>> What do they do? Where are they documented?
>>> [I got the tips on usage on the grub mailing list]
>>
>> I don't know whether configfile and multiboot are documented in the
>> info pages (I find info unusable) but this is the upstream grub
>> manual:
>
> A few years ago the complaints about grub's documentation were possibly
> justified. Today, less so, And even if there are improvements which can
> made it is hardly a justification for the "bring back grub legacy and
> give us abandoned software" faction to be considered at all seriously.
>
> configfile is documented in the info pages. The multiboot command
> replaces the kernel command; you're on your own with that!

Why do you think that grub2's multiboot replaces grub1's kernel?

Its main use is to load the core.img of another grub2 install. I don't
think that you can load a kernel with it.


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Re: GTK crashing X?

[Brian]

On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 13:12:01 -0700, Matt Ventura wrote:

> On 6/30/2014 10:43 AM, Brian wrote:
> >
> >6. Hopefully report success. :)
> >
> >
> Nope, installed lightdm after doing a dist-upgrade and rebooting, still
> has the same issue. Starts X, displays a cursor for a couple seconds,
> then crashes and repeatedly tries to restart lightdm.
> 
> I'm still wondering if it has something to do with the video card, since
> another issue is that when I dist-upgrade and it upgrades GRUB, it tries
> to do a graphical boot, but it gets the monitor refresh rate wrong and
> can't display the menu. I have to manually set it to a lower resolution
> (native is 1280x1024) to get it to work.

Could be hardware, I suppose. Switch to a tty with CTL-ALT-F1. Login as a
user and get the video card data from the command 'lspci'.

While you are out of X ALT-F2 gives you another console to log in as
root and remove lightdm with

   apt-get purge lightdm

Because I like to be tidy I'd now return the machine to a more or less
basic configuration

   apt-get purge fonts* x11-* dbus xfce4*

followed by

   apt-get --purge autoremove

Now

   apt-get install xorg fvwm

and, as a user

   startx

How does this go? If ok 'apt-get install xfce4' and 'startx'.


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Re: OT: programming languages

[Tony Baldwin]

On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 12:40:28PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Joe wrote:
> >On Sun, 29 Jun 2014 15:46:58 +0100
> >Tom Furie  wrote:
> >
> >>On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 11:41:57PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> >>
> >>>Programming belongs on any Linux list, especially since a lot of
> >>>times you need to code to get things done. Dare you to configure
> >>>dwm without coding.
> >>However, there is a difference between discussing code in the context
> >>of a solution to a problem and discussing coding and langauges in
> >>general.
> >>
> >Indeed, but the name of the list is 'debian-user', not 'Debian': it's
> >about us, not about the OS. A subject is off-topic here if it is [likely
> >to be] of no concern to Debian users, not merely if it is not specific
> >to the Debian operating system.
> >
> >Debian users might well be interested in better ways to administer and
> >configure their Debian systems, even when such methods are not
> >applicable *only* to Debian.
> >
> 
> So please... get of your high horse.
> 
> Miles Fidelman


So, are we going to discuss languages? Or just discussion the relevance
of such discussion on the list?

Personally, I like tcl, bash, and ruby for scripting stuff (bash is a
no-brainer of course), although I've only started to play with ruby
recently.
I really have no perl fu at all.
A lot of stuff other folks do with perl, I end up doing with
bash/sed/awk.
I started playing with tcl about 7 or 8 years ago, and found it was
really easy to learn and make useful stuff with fairly quickly.
I don't understand why it isn't more popular (although it IS widely
used, just not sexy for the hipster kids, who apparently do like ruby,
and stuff like haskell, or whatever).

tony
-- 
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web design, development & hosting


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Re: No volume change possible

[Bzzzz]

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 22:44:26 +0200
mad  wrote:

> pavucontrol does not fix the problem. In pavucontrol between 1 and
> 100% the volume stays the same. It is muted when switched to zero
> and it is getting louder over 100%.

Which knob(s) did you act on?

Play between application volume and general to see
if it is changing things.

Did you check that not any other mixer is running
in the background?

-- 
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iFf: huu
iFf: go to hell, please


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Re: No volume change possible

[mad]

pavucontrol does not fix the problem. In pavucontrol between 1 and 100% 
the volume stays the same. It is muted when switched to zero and it is 
getting louder over 100%.


On 30.06.2014 20:07, B wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 19:44:02 +0200
mad  wrote:


I can no longer change the volume on my desktop running Debian
testing.


May be your system has switched to pulseaudio, install
pavucontrol and test it while audio playing.




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Re: GTK crashing X?

[Matt Ventura]

On 6/30/2014 10:43 AM, Brian wrote:

On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 10:23:38 -0700, Matt Ventura wrote:


Well, all I did was netinstall stable with xfce, log in once,
add testing repos, and dist-upgrade. I could just try directly
netinstalling testing, and if it's broken out of the box then
it's almost certainly a bug, right?

You could try:

1. Install without choosing Xfce. Untick the desktop item when asked to
select software.

2. You'll boot into a tty. Login and and change sources.lst to "jessie".

3. Update, upgrade and dist-upgrade.

4. Reboot. Login and

apt-get task-xfce-desktop

or

apt-get xfce4 lightdm

The first gives you what d-i gives you. The second has fewer packages
but is fine. I'd choose the latter.

5. Reboot.

6. Hopefully report success. :)



Nope, installed lightdm after doing a dist-upgrade and rebooting, still
has the same issue. Starts X, displays a cursor for a couple seconds,
then crashes and repeatedly tries to restart lightdm.

I'm still wondering if it has something to do with the video card, since
another issue is that when I dist-upgrade and it upgrades GRUB, it tries
to do a graphical boot, but it gets the monitor refresh rate wrong and
can't display the menu. I have to manually set it to a lower resolution
(native is 1280x1024) to get it to work.


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Heads-up: update microcode on all Intel Ivy Bridge/Haswell processors

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

Intel issued a high priority microcode update for all Intel processors with
Ivy Bridge and Haswell microarchitectures (i.e. 4th gen and 5th gen Core
processors, Xeon E3v2, Xeon E3v3, Xeon E5v2 and Xeon E7v2, plus several
models of the Pentium and Celeron processors).

Updated intel-microcode packages (upstream version 20140624) are already
available for non-free unstable, and will be available in at most a few
hours for both the non-free testing (jessie) and non-free stable-backports
(wheezy-backports) distributions.

Updates for non-free stable (wheezy) and non-free oldstable (squeeze) will
be issued, but they will take a (possibly large) while to clear the approval
process.

As usual, we don't have definitive information about what was fixed in this
microcode update.  However, we do have some data:

This update is reported to better fix critical errata previously fixed by
the 20140430 update.  We cannot verify at this time whether other Ivy Bridge
processors than the Xeon E5v2/E7v2 also have the same critical errata or
not, but if they do, it is likely fixed by this new update.

The update has other unspecified fixes, possibly including:
 * enable RDRAND support on some Ivy Bridge processors;
 * avoid triggering an incorrect catastrophic shutdown (causes immediate 
   system failure) well below the critical thermal threshold on some Ivy
   Bridge processors;

-- 
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)

[Brian]

On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 16:06:32 +0100, Darac Marjal wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:53:41AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > 
> > Thanks for the great suggestion. I had originally ruled out LILO (which
> > I used back in the 20th century) because it can't deal with EFI boot,
> 
> No, but there's a ... I'm not sure if it's a fork of LILO or a totally
> separate project ... called ELILO that can be booted from EFI.

Should suit people who demand their software to be either abandoned or
unlikely to have any further development. The problem with it is that
its developer has a liking for the dark side.

  http://sourceforge.net/p/elilo/mailman/message/31524008/

   >Off-note: Is ELILO still under active development? Because there seems
   >to be no update after v3.16 which was released in March 2013 (8 months
   >ago). Even if it is no longer actively maintained, providing the
   >sources via GIT will allow contributors to fork the code and maintain
   >it in github/gitorious/bitbucket etc..
   Elilo is still actively maintained solely by me but no longer in active
   development. Elilo was designed in the early 2000's for EFI and Itanium,
   thats why it exists. As neither of those are very relevant any more It 
   is legacy code at the end of its life cycle naturally. Im really not 
   accepting new features or new feature requests. New releases are for 
   major bug fixes for people that just cant live without elilo and
   thats about it and I have no bugs waiting to release. 

   New bootloader efforts and contributions should rightfully go to Grub2.
   It is in active development, has many active contributors and is
   accepting new features and it supports UEFI and secure boot now and is 
   finally fairly well positioned to fulfill its original intention of 
   being the "GRand Unified Bootloader". It could be so if it supported 
   network booting and really if elilo didnt exist anymore Im sure that 
   somebody wouldve contributed the feature by now, most likely from a
   cloud team.


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Re: GTK crashing X?

[Matt Ventura]

On 6/30/2014 11:53 AM, rob wrote:

On 29/06/14 19:16, Matt Ventura wrote:

I've got a pretty old machine (Celeron 2.8 GHz, ATI rage XL). It's been
running Debian fine for years, but I reinstalled recently. Installed
stable (chose XFCE as desktop environment), everything worked fine
(lightdm worked, xfce worked). Did a dist-upgrade to testing (also tried
unstable), and now neither lightdm nor xfce works (lightdm goes into an
endless crash loop, xfce sends me back to the login screen). I can
manually start an X server, and it can display basic programs like
xclock fine. But as soon as I start a GTK application (or at least I
think it's GTK causing the problem), X crashes with "Segmentation fault
at address 0xc" "Fatal server error: Caught signal 11 (Segmentation
fault). Server aborting". There's nothing in the log immediately before
the error other than the backtrace.

There doesn't appear to be a problem with any of those components
individually, since xfce and individual applications will both run
perfectly fine if I display them on another machine's X, so I'm not even
sure what to file a bug under.




Which gtk application(s)?
I have the issue with chromium, (as a start-up application), since an 
upgrade on 18/06.

Which video drivers are you using, xorg-xserver-video-* or AMD(ATI)?

rob


Well, lightdm itself crashes it. I also tried with various xfce 
applications like thunar and the xfce panel.

Gnome applications also seem to crash it.


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Re: GTK crashing X?

[rob]

On 29/06/14 19:16, Matt Ventura wrote:

I've got a pretty old machine (Celeron 2.8 GHz, ATI rage XL). It's been
running Debian fine for years, but I reinstalled recently. Installed
stable (chose XFCE as desktop environment), everything worked fine
(lightdm worked, xfce worked). Did a dist-upgrade to testing (also tried
unstable), and now neither lightdm nor xfce works (lightdm goes into an
endless crash loop, xfce sends me back to the login screen). I can
manually start an X server, and it can display basic programs like
xclock fine. But as soon as I start a GTK application (or at least I
think it's GTK causing the problem), X crashes with "Segmentation fault
at address 0xc" "Fatal server error: Caught signal 11 (Segmentation
fault). Server aborting". There's nothing in the log immediately before
the error other than the backtrace.

There doesn't appear to be a problem with any of those components
individually, since xfce and individual applications will both run
perfectly fine if I display them on another machine's X, so I'm not even
sure what to file a bug under.




Which gtk application(s)?
I have the issue with chromium, (as a start-up application), since an 
upgrade on 18/06.

Which video drivers are you using, xorg-xserver-video-* or AMD(ATI)?

rob


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Re: No volume change possible

[Bzzzz]

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 14:30:46 -0400
Ric Moore  wrote:

> Problems of this sort would be much lessoned if pavucontrol was a 
> depend. RIc

I wouldn't say 'depend' but much more 'recommend'; 'depend'
should only be used for _mandatory_ dependencies IMHO.

-- 
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 that your printer is burning
 ah ok
 indeed
 shit…


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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)

[Brian]

On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 14:05:10 -0400, Tom H wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Rusi Mody  wrote:
> >
> > I use the grub command configfile (also multiboot).
> > What do they do? Where are they documented?
> > [I got the tips on usage on the grub mailing list]
> 
> I don't know whether configfile and multiboot are documented in the
> info pages (I find info unusable) but this is the upstream grub
> manual:

A few years ago the complaints about grub's documentation were possibly
justified. Today, less so, And even if there are improvements which can
made it is hardly a justification for the "bring back grub legacy and
give us abandoned software" faction to be considered at all seriously.

configfile is documented in the info pages. The multiboot command
replaces the kernel command; you're on your own with that!

> http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/html_node/index.html
> 
> I've just looked at the debian wiki's documentation and it's
> surpringly sparse; unless I landed on the wrong page.
> 
> ubuntuforums.org has a very good documentation thread/sticky and the
> arch and gentoo wikis have good documentation.

Regretably so. But all three *are* wikis.



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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)

[Ric Moore]

On 06/30/2014 06:24 AM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:



Le 28.06.2014 05:14, slitt a écrit :

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 09:33:57 +0900
Joel Rees  wrote:


On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 7:48 AM, [...]
> Grub is a *boot loader*.

Lately (last few years), it seems to be trying to do a lot more.

> What do you expect it to do? Mind read?

I'd almost say that's one of the things the devs are trying to make
it do.



I have a feeling that a lot of this thread got procmailed to
my /dev/null, but for the person who asked what I wanted it to do,
that's simple: Boot the damn computer with a menu to choose predefined
kernel/initrd/disk combinations, and nothing else. And for gosh sakes,
keep it in one file. If a config option is about "pretty", leave that
feature out.

In other words, grub1.

SteveT


Otherwise, if you do not like grub, there are other boot loaders. LILO
at least works fine, and seems to be ok for your requirements: a single
easy text file as configuration.
It's what I'm doing, excepted at work for 2 reasons: it does not seems
to support the new crap named... how is it named? Secure boot? Something
like that. The fun thing about that is that the grub installation did
not allowed me to have a dual boot with the original windows, so I could
be using LILO right now it would not change anything.
The other reason is that I do prefer mainstream stuff on computers that
I do not want to tinker. Never had any problem with LILO, but just in
case...


I installed grub-customizer from source and it works a charm, with 
grub2. Ric








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Re: No volume change possible

[Ric Moore]

On 06/30/2014 02:07 PM, B wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 19:44:02 +0200
mad  wrote:


I can no longer change the volume on my desktop running Debian
testing.


May be your system has switched to pulseaudio, install
pavucontrol and test it while audio playing.

Problems of this sort would be much lessoned if pavucontrol was a 
depend. RIc



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Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?

[Tom H]

On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 1:59 PM, Brian  wrote:
> On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 13:42:51 -0400, Tom H wrote:
>>
>> Removing "splash" disables the bootsplash but it doesn't disable
>> plymouth. With upstart, plymouth is the interface for fscking or
>> decrypting a partition.
>
> Oh! I've never used Ubuntu in anger and thought the appearence of boot
> messages meant it was disabled. Mind you, I only spent seven minutes on
> it, unlike Steve Litt's seven years. And I've no axe to grind.
>
> I had got the impression that upstart and plymouth are intimately
> connected but didn't look any further. Thank you for taking the time to
> clarify the situation.

You're welcome.

Even if the bootsplash is enabled, you can press esc to see the boot
messages. AFAIR, if you press esc again, you'll go back to the
bootsplash - but I'm not 100% sure.

It's too far back fro me to be sure, but I think that Fedora used
plymouth before it switched to upstart (plymouth is developed by an RH
guy) so it is/was probably integrated into sysvinit too. But Uubntu
had to work on integrating it into upstart and mountall - and upstart
needs AFAIUI because it serialized input/output in spite of upstart's
parallel boot model.


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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)

[Tom H]

On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:53 AM, Steve Litt  wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 12:24:41 +0200
> berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
>>
>> Otherwise, if you do not like grub, there are other boot loaders.
>> LILO at least works fine, and seems to be ok for your requirements: a
>> single easy text file as configuration.
>> It's what I'm doing, excepted at work for 2 reasons: it does not
>> seems to support the new crap named... how is it named? Secure boot?
>> Something like that. The fun thing about that is that the grub
>> installation did not allowed me to have a dual boot with the original
>> windows, so I could be using LILO right now it would not change
>> anything. The other reason is that I do prefer mainstream stuff on
>> computers that I do not want to tinker. Never had any problem with
>> LILO, but just in case...
>
> Thanks for the great suggestion. I had originally ruled out LILO (which
> I used back in the 20th century) because it can't deal with EFI boot,
> as I remember. But (let's all take some time to laugh), my boot disk is
> a 250 SSD with an MRB partition, so EFI (and secure boot) is a
> non-issue.

There's elilo. I've never used it so I have no idea how close it is to
lilo config-wise.

There are also gummiboot and refind.

Neither are packaged for Debian but they're both good efi boot managers.

If you don't like systemd you might not like gummiboot because it's
developed by Kay Sievers. It's what I use on my laptop. Another reason
that you might not like it is that you have to have your kernel and
initramfs on the efi partition.

refind on the other hand is slightly more complex and understands some
filesystems so you don't need to mount the efi partition as "/boot" or
copy the kernel and initramfs to "/boot/efi".

They're both boot managers not bootloaders so you have to ensure that
the efi stub is compiled into the kernel.


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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)

[Tom H]

On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 10:12 PM, Rusi Mody  wrote:
>
> There used to be a grub wiki: grub.enbug.org. The link is now dead.
>
> It can however still be found in the webarchive:
> https://web.archive.org/web/20100819173835/http://grub.enbug.org/FrontPage

The grub manual that I posted earlier was somewhat inspired by the engrub pages.


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Re: No volume change possible

[Bzzzz]

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 19:44:02 +0200
mad  wrote:

> I can no longer change the volume on my desktop running Debian
> testing.

May be your system has switched to pulseaudio, install
pavucontrol and test it while audio playing.

-- 
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Blondin : yep
Blondin : it is called beer


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Re: GTK crashing X?

[davidson]

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014, Matt Ventura wrote:


On 6/30/2014 10:13 AM, Brian wrote:

On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 09:11:01 -0700, Matt Ventura wrote:


The system otherwise works completely fine. Packages operations work
fine, so I don't think that's where the problem lies. There was no
downgrading, just upgraded to testing and it didn't work, figured I
might as well check if it was fixed in unstable since it was a fresh
install so there was nothing to lose.

It looks like stable has 1:7.7+3~deb7u1 for xserver-xorg, 2.24.10-2
for gtk2, and 3.4.2-7 for gtk3. Testing has 1:7.7+7, 2.24.23-1, and
3.12.2-1+b1.  Unstable is the same except gtk2 is 2.24.23-1.

Considering we don't know exactly where you started from and your
upgrading is not repeatable (making thoughts of bugs premature), what
are your thoughts now?

1. Reinstall stable and stick with it? (After all, it worked).

2. Go for Jessie? (In a slightly different way than previously).



Well, all I did was netinstall stable with xfce, log in once,
add testing repos, and dist-upgrade. [...]


in OP it was mentioned that lightdm was messed up after dist-upgrade.

i am curious whether that dist-upgrade was started within an x session
managed by some x display manager.

if so, see

 
http://www.debian.org/./releases/wheezy/i386/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#upgrade-preparations


I could just try directly netinstalling testing, and if it's broken
out of the box then it's almost certainly a bug, right?


-wes


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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)

[Tom H]

On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Rusi Mody  wrote:
> On Saturday, June 28, 2014 9:20:02 PM UTC+5:30, Brian wrote:
>> On Sat 28 Jun 2014 at 09:00:30 +0200, Thierry de Coulon wrote:
>>> On Saturday 28 June 2014 05.55:39 Rusi Mody wrote:

 PS. No I am not defending grub2 -- I find its documentation almost
 non-existent -- just my survival strategies :-)
>>>
>>> Yes, this is one problem. There are others:
>>
>> 20 man pages and an info manual amounts to non-existent documentation?
>
> I use the grub command configfile (also multiboot).
> What do they do? Where are they documented?
> [I got the tips on usage on the grub mailing list]

I don't know whether configfile and multiboot are documented in the
info pages (I find info unusable) but this is the upstream grub
manual:

http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/html_node/index.html

I've just looked at the debian wiki's documentation and it's
surpringly sparse; unless I landed on the wrong page.

ubuntuforums.org has a very good documentation thread/sticky and the
arch and gentoo wikis have good documentation.


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Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?

[Brian]

On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 13:42:51 -0400, Tom H wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 6:48 PM, Brian  wrote:
> > On Fri 27 Jun 2014 at 13:40:48 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> >> On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 12:34:54 -0400
> >> Tom H  wrote:
> >>
> >> functional, graphical boots, framebuffer boots, enforced GUI login just
> >> get in the way.
> >>
> >> Plymouth sux!
> >
> > Plymouth can be disabled at boot time by removing "splash" from the
> > kernel command line. Removing "quiet" may also be a good thing. I hope
> > this technical information helps you if you ever go back to Ubuntu.
> 
> KMS and grub give you a framebuffer boot on Debian...
> 
> Removing "splash" disables the bootsplash but it doesn't disable
> plymouth. With upstart, plymouth is the interface for fscking or
> decrypting a partition.

Oh! I've never used Ubuntu in anger and thought the appearence of boot
messages meant it was disabled. Mind you, I only spent seven minutes on
it, unlike Steve Litt's seven years. And I've no axe to grind.

I had got the impression that upstart and plymouth are intimately
connected but didn't look any further. Thank you for taking the time to
clarify the situation.


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No volume change possible

[mad]

Hi,

I can no longer change the volume on my desktop running Debian testing.

In kmix or alsamixer (card: pulseaudio) I can lower the volume but 
nothing happens until the volume switches to zero. Then the sound is 
muted. Above zero the volume is always the same.


On the command line with mplayer I could observe the following:

mplayer -ao alsa test.mp3 # No volume change, only mute. If I change the 
volume too fast (pressing 0 or 9 permanently) the playback crashes (but 
not mplayer).


mplayer -ao pulse test.mp3 # Volume change is possible

mplayer -ao oss test.mp3 # Volume change is possible

Anybody any idea what the problem may be?

On my laptop (also Debian testing, very similar setup) volume change is 
possible.


Thanks in advance
mad


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Re: GTK crashing X?

[Brian]

On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 10:23:38 -0700, Matt Ventura wrote:

> Well, all I did was netinstall stable with xfce, log in once,
> add testing repos, and dist-upgrade. I could just try directly
> netinstalling testing, and if it's broken out of the box then
> it's almost certainly a bug, right?

You could try:

1. Install without choosing Xfce. Untick the desktop item when asked to
   select software.

2. You'll boot into a tty. Login and and change sources.lst to "jessie".

3. Update, upgrade and dist-upgrade.

4. Reboot. Login and

apt-get task-xfce-desktop

   or

apt-get xfce4 lightdm

   The first gives you what d-i gives you. The second has fewer packages
   but is fine. I'd choose the latter.

5. Reboot.

6. Hopefully report success. :)


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Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?

[Tom H]

On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 6:48 PM, Brian  wrote:
> On Fri 27 Jun 2014 at 13:40:48 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 12:34:54 -0400
>> Tom H  wrote:
>>
>> functional, graphical boots, framebuffer boots, enforced GUI login just
>> get in the way.
>>
>> Plymouth sux!
>
> Plymouth can be disabled at boot time by removing "splash" from the
> kernel command line. Removing "quiet" may also be a good thing. I hope
> this technical information helps you if you ever go back to Ubuntu.

KMS and grub give you a framebuffer boot on Debian...

Removing "splash" disables the bootsplash but it doesn't disable
plymouth. With upstart, plymouth is the interface for fscking or
decrypting a partition.


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Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?

[Tom H]

On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 1:40 PM, Steve Litt  wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 12:34:54 -0400
> Tom H  wrote:
>> On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 6:01 AM, Lisi Reisz 
>> wrote:
>>> On Sunday 22 June 2014 01:31:50 Steve Litt wrote:


 The whole reason I'm switching from Xubuntu to Debian is to get
 away from both Plymouth and *dm.
>>>
>>> I hadn't heard of Plymouth. I just googled it and blanched. Thanks
>>> for the heads up, Steve! One more reason why I shall avoid
>>> *buntu. :-(
>>
>> (The regular sniping at Ubuntu on this list reflects badly on Debian
>> users in general and on this list's users in particular...)
>
> I don't think so. I think the sniping is well deserved, and unique to
> bad aspects of Ubuntu. I haven't heard one person gripe about Ubuntu's
> easy and readable fonts, or Ubuntu's great hardware detection. But
> when it comes to Plymouth, people gripe. It's the biggest of several
> reasons I switched to Debian from Ubuntu for my daily driver.

The issue isn't whether it's deserved or not but whether it belongs on
this list.


>> There's a lot of crap on the internet about plymouth.
>>
>> Ubuntu defaulted to both plymouth and kms with 10.04 and because one
>> of plymouth's roles is to provide a bootsplash it was blamed for the
>> lack of a pure text console or for video boot problems.
>
> OK, here's what I know: My monitor (and please don't tell me to spend
> $250 for one that "does it better") takes several seconds to autodetect
> a resolution change, including the framebuffer, which Plymouth changes
> several times during boot. So I miss most of the boot messages.
>
> And by the way, the Plymouth-bestowed framebuffer has type too small
> for me to read well. All I wanted: I mean *ALL* I wanted, was to have
> my boot messages scroll up the screen as ASCII text like 1999 RedHat.
> Is that such a huge request? Apparently yes, when Plymouth gets
> involved.
>
> I know, I know, if I understood Grub 2 I could fix all these problems.
> Yeah, exactly. Grub 2 is one of a long list of softwares that fixed a
> nonexistent problem and turned their product into an entangled mess of
> complexity. Gnome2->Gnome3, Gnome2->Unity, Kmail->kmail2, and
> Grub->Grub2. And of course, when troubleshooting Grub2, every time you
> want to see results of a change, you need to reboot. What could
> *possibly* go wrong. And don't forget, when you look on the web for
> info on how to work with Grub2, you see all sorts of conflicting
> information.
>
> So you know what? Plymouth sux big time, especially when packaged with
> Grub2 and lightdm (and who knows what systemd will throw into the mix).
> If I've reflected badly on the list, well gee, I'm sorry, but as a 7
> year Ubuntu user, I have more than a passing acquaintance with
> Plymouth, and I view it as 100% sabotage.

So your problem(s) might stem from grub, kms, or plymouth or any
combination of two or three of them but plymouth is the guilty party.
And you can't even be bothered to change the grub settings to try to
remedy your problems. You'expenced and intelligent enough to know
better. But if you feel like ranting, rant away! :)


>> There were some purely plymouth problems (for example, it initially
>> wouldn't display a progress bar when a partition was being fsck'd) but
>> the whole anti-plymouth thing is very much overdone.
>
> I think the whole pro-plymouth thing is very much overdone. Really, I
> don't need decorative gegaws or framebuffers on my virtual terminals. I
> need text I can read, and if there's a boot problem, text I can
> troubleshoot with.
>
> All I want from Linux is something that works, and that I can repair
> with a few tools. If I wanted pretty, I'd be an Apple guy. If I wanted
> commodity pseudo-pretty in an entanged mess best maintained with trial
> and error, I'd get Windows. But I want functional. When you want
> functional, graphical boots, framebuffer boots, enforced GUI login just
> get in the way.

I don't consider myself pro-plymouth. It's just that it's the default
on RHEL6 (and I spend 11/12 hours per day on those systems - although
not booting and rebooting!) and Fedora and Ubuntu, so I just have and
"use" them. Same as for systemd. Once Debian and Ubuntu force me (I
suspect that in Debian's case it'll be with jessie+1) to switch, I'll
initially miss sysvinit and upstart but after 3-4 years it'll be a
case of out of sight, out of mind.

I dual-boot Ubuntu and Fedora on my laptop. I have the bootsplash off
for both and I don't have any problems. There's a video reset when the
initramfs switches over but that's it. I've installed Ubuntu on my
parents' and my neighbor's laptops and they don't have any problems
with the bootsplash on.


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Re: GTK crashing X?

[Matt Ventura]

On 6/30/2014 10:13 AM, Brian wrote:

On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 09:11:01 -0700, Matt Ventura wrote:


The system otherwise works completely fine. Packages operations work
fine, so I don't think that's where the problem lies. There was no
downgrading, just upgraded to testing and it didn't work, figured I
might as well check if it was fixed in unstable since it was a fresh
install so there was nothing to lose.

It looks like stable has 1:7.7+3~deb7u1 for xserver-xorg, 2.24.10-2
for gtk2, and 3.4.2-7 for gtk3. Testing has 1:7.7+7, 2.24.23-1, and
3.12.2-1+b1.  Unstable is the same except gtk2 is 2.24.23-1.

Considering we don't know exactly where you started from and your
upgrading is not repeatable (making thoughts of bugs premature), what
are your thoughts now?

1. Reinstall stable and stick with it? (After all, it worked).

2. Go for Jessie? (In a slightly different way than previously).



Well, all I did was netinstall stable with xfce, log in once,
add testing repos, and dist-upgrade. I could just try directly
netinstalling testing, and if it's broken out of the box then
it's almost certainly a bug, right?

There's some other issues that I'd like to report (and/or workaround)
as well so I'm holding off on reinstalling stable.


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Debian Jessie Intel 915GM Suspend on Lid Close

[Dylan Bass]

I have an older Dell Inspiron 1300 laptop.  It has an Intel 915 GM chipset.
 Sleep on lid close on Debian Wheezy works perfectly.  I just uncomment
"LID_SLEEP=true" in /etc/default/acpi-support to get suspend on lid close
working.  I recently upgraded to Debian Jessie for various reasons, and the
sleep on lid close stopped working.  My laptop also has function keys for
suspend and those stopped working too.  The only thing that works is using
pm-suspend, but I have to use it before I close the lid.  I was wondering
if this is a bug or not?  Thanks.

Re: GTK crashing X?

[Brian]

On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 09:11:01 -0700, Matt Ventura wrote:

> The system otherwise works completely fine. Packages operations work
> fine, so I don't think that's where the problem lies. There was no
> downgrading, just upgraded to testing and it didn't work, figured I
> might as well check if it was fixed in unstable since it was a fresh
> install so there was nothing to lose.
> 
> It looks like stable has 1:7.7+3~deb7u1 for xserver-xorg, 2.24.10-2
> for gtk2, and 3.4.2-7 for gtk3. Testing has 1:7.7+7, 2.24.23-1, and
> 3.12.2-1+b1.  Unstable is the same except gtk2 is 2.24.23-1.

Considering we don't know exactly where you started from and your
upgrading is not repeatable (making thoughts of bugs premature), what
are your thoughts now?

1. Reinstall stable and stick with it? (After all, it worked).

2. Go for Jessie? (In a slightly different way than previously).


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Re: GTK crashing X?

[Matt Ventura]

On 6/30/2014 4:12 AM, Chris Bannister wrote:

On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 11:16:58AM -0700, Matt Ventura wrote:

I've got a pretty old machine (Celeron 2.8 GHz, ATI rage XL). It's been
running Debian fine for years, but I reinstalled recently. Installed stable
(chose XFCE as desktop environment), everything worked fine (lightdm worked,
xfce worked). Did a dist-upgrade to testing (also tried unstable), and now

Did you downgrade to testing from unstable?


neither lightdm nor xfce works (lightdm goes into an endless crash loop,
xfce sends me back to the login screen). I can manually start an X server,
and it can display basic programs like xclock fine. But as soon as I start a
GTK application (or at least I think it's GTK causing the problem), X
crashes with "Segmentation fault at address 0xc" "Fatal server error: Caught
signal 11 (Segmentation fault). Server aborting". There's nothing in the log
immediately before the error other than the backtrace.

There doesn't appear to be a problem with any of those components
individually, since xfce and individual applications will both run perfectly
fine if I display them on another machine's X, so I'm not even sure what to
file a bug under.

I'd check the package versions from what you say above about trying stable
unstable and testing. Is the system in a sane state? i.e. does an
apt-get update/upgrade occur without issue?

Just as an aside, if stable was working fine why did you upgrade?

The system otherwise works completely fine. Packages operations work 
fine, so I
don't think that's where the problem lies. There was no downgrading, 
just upgraded
to testing and it didn't work, figured I might as well check if it was 
fixed in unstable

since it was a fresh install so there was nothing to lose.

It looks like stable has 1:7.7+3~deb7u1 for xserver-xorg, 2.24.10-2 for 
gtk2, and
3.4.2-7 for gtk3. Testing has 1:7.7+7, 2.24.23-1, and 3.12.2-1+b1. 
Unstable is the same

except gtk2 is 2.24.23-1.



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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)

[Bzzzz]

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 10:53:41 -0400
Steve Litt  wrote:

> Thanks for the great suggestion. I had originally ruled out LILO
> (which I used back in the 20th century) because it can't deal with
> EFI boot, as I remember. But (let's all take some time to laugh),
> my boot disk is a 250 SSD with an MRB partition, so EFI (and
> secure boot) is a non-issue. 

Be careful if you use RAID with LILOn though: it doesn't
handle the last version of the RAID header.

-- 
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The blonde: I had a 37° fever


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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)

[Darac Marjal]

On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:53:41AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 12:24:41 +0200
> berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
> 
> 
> > Otherwise, if you do not like grub, there are other boot loaders.
> > LILO at least works fine, and seems to be ok for your requirements: a
> > single easy text file as configuration.
> > It's what I'm doing, excepted at work for 2 reasons: it does not
> > seems to support the new crap named... how is it named? Secure boot?
> > Something like that. The fun thing about that is that the grub
> > installation did not allowed me to have a dual boot with the original
> > windows, so I could be using LILO right now it would not change
> > anything. The other reason is that I do prefer mainstream stuff on
> > computers that I do not want to tinker. Never had any problem with
> > LILO, but just in case...
> 
> Thanks for the great suggestion. I had originally ruled out LILO (which
> I used back in the 20th century) because it can't deal with EFI boot,

No, but there's a ... I'm not sure if it's a fork of LILO or a totally
separate project ... called ELILO that can be booted from EFI.

> as I remember. But (let's all take some time to laugh), my boot disk is
> a 250 SSD with an MRB partition, so EFI (and secure boot) is a
> non-issue. 

As I understand it, the ability for EFI to boot from an MBR is optional
(EFI + GPT is mandatory, but some firmwares allow EFI + MBR). YMMV.

> 
> So you know what? If I ever lose my boot and can't grub2-fix it in 20
> minutes, I'll try LILO.
> 
> I liked Grub1 better than LILO because Grub understands ext[2|3|4], so
> you don't need to do all the recursive thinking and the weird jails to
> install Grub, and having a boot file change its sector doesn't remove
> your bootability, really, LILO was pretty predictable once you really
> understood it.
> 
> You know, I have a bunch of too-tiny disks hanging around, and my
> intent was to take them out to the driveway and do my 24 oz hammer
> drive-wipe on them. Instead, I think I'll take a page from your book,
> and use those drives for nothing but / and /boot and maybe /usr, and
> use a modern >1TB drive for the rest, and then I can use LILO.
> 
> > 
> > I guess that there are other boot loaders (able to work on ext* file 
> > systems, of course) too around, but I do not know them.
> 
> Most can't understand EFI boot, which removes them from contention for
> a lot of jobs. The booter meant for booting floppies and CDs can be
> hacked to boot your system, but as I remember when researching it, it
> was ugly.
> 
> I don't know how big the current Grub source code is, but maybe I
> should just grab it, remove all code bestowing "pretty", get rid of
> grub.d and just have everything in grub.conf, and call it SimpleGrub. To
> paraphrase Henry Ford, "SimpleGrub is available in any color scheme you
> want, as long as you want white text on black background."
> 
> Thanks for the great suggestion. I'm going to use it just as soon as I
> get a chance.
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
> Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance
> 
> 
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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 12:24:41 +0200
berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:


> Otherwise, if you do not like grub, there are other boot loaders.
> LILO at least works fine, and seems to be ok for your requirements: a
> single easy text file as configuration.
> It's what I'm doing, excepted at work for 2 reasons: it does not
> seems to support the new crap named... how is it named? Secure boot?
> Something like that. The fun thing about that is that the grub
> installation did not allowed me to have a dual boot with the original
> windows, so I could be using LILO right now it would not change
> anything. The other reason is that I do prefer mainstream stuff on
> computers that I do not want to tinker. Never had any problem with
> LILO, but just in case...

Thanks for the great suggestion. I had originally ruled out LILO (which
I used back in the 20th century) because it can't deal with EFI boot,
as I remember. But (let's all take some time to laugh), my boot disk is
a 250 SSD with an MRB partition, so EFI (and secure boot) is a
non-issue. 

So you know what? If I ever lose my boot and can't grub2-fix it in 20
minutes, I'll try LILO.

I liked Grub1 better than LILO because Grub understands ext[2|3|4], so
you don't need to do all the recursive thinking and the weird jails to
install Grub, and having a boot file change its sector doesn't remove
your bootability, really, LILO was pretty predictable once you really
understood it.

You know, I have a bunch of too-tiny disks hanging around, and my
intent was to take them out to the driveway and do my 24 oz hammer
drive-wipe on them. Instead, I think I'll take a page from your book,
and use those drives for nothing but / and /boot and maybe /usr, and
use a modern >1TB drive for the rest, and then I can use LILO.

> 
> I guess that there are other boot loaders (able to work on ext* file 
> systems, of course) too around, but I do not know them.

Most can't understand EFI boot, which removes them from contention for
a lot of jobs. The booter meant for booting floppies and CDs can be
hacked to boot your system, but as I remember when researching it, it
was ugly.

I don't know how big the current Grub source code is, but maybe I
should just grab it, remove all code bestowing "pretty", get rid of
grub.d and just have everything in grub.conf, and call it SimpleGrub. To
paraphrase Henry Ford, "SimpleGrub is available in any color scheme you
want, as long as you want white text on black background."

Thanks for the great suggestion. I'm going to use it just as soon as I
get a chance.

SteveT

Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance


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Re: is this sensible?

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2014-06-30 13:15:36 +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 03:33:40 +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> 
> > What matters is also the list of NEW packages. Your mail was saying:
> > 
> > The following NEW packages will be installed:
> >   gcc-4.9-base gcc-4.9-base:i386 geoclue-2.0 libabw-0.0-0 libaudit-common
> >   libaudit1 libboost-date-time1.55.0 libcmis-0.4-4 libe-book-0.0-0 libeot0
> >   libetonyek-0.0-0 libfreehand-0.0-0 libharfbuzz-gobject0 libharfbuzz0b
> >   libharfbuzz0b:i386 libllvm3.4 libmbim-glib0 libmm-glib0 libmwaw-0.2-2
> >   libnvidia-ml1 libpam-systemd libqmi-glib0
> >   libreoffice-avmedia-backend-gstreamer libreoffice-base-drivers
> >   libsystemd-daemon0 libwebkit2gtk-3.0-25 libwebp5 libxatracker2
> > libxshmfence1
> >   nvidia-modprobe systemd systemd-sysv xserver-xorg-video-modesetting
> > 
> > So, systemd is new, and so is libpam-systemd (recommended by systemd).
> > Then libpam-systemd has a dependency on systemd-sysv | systemd-shim,
> > meaning that since you don't have systemd-sysv or systemd-shim yet,
> > systemd-sysv will be taken, and sysvinit will have to be upgraded
> > (it is now just a metapackage in unstable, it is no longer the real
> > sysvinit -- sysvinit-core is, which you don't have, otherwise it would
> > have been in the REMOVED list due to the conflict with systemd-sysv).
> 
> If sysvinit-core had been on the system the NEW packages would not have
> included systemd-sysv and policykit-1 would have been kept back.

Only if this can satisfy the dependencies. If for some reason, the
versioned dependencies are such that policykit-1 needs to be upgraded,
then apt-get would propose to install systemd-shim, which doesn't
conflict with sysvinit-core. This is what happened on my machines.

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Re: is this sensible?

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2014-06-30 12:35:37 +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
> I know that it probably needs more time than simply asking to softwares to
> guess what you want, but I am a programmer, and I know that a program can
> never guess what I have in mind, which solution I will prefer. Especially
> since I do behave differently regarding computer choices than most people.

A program cannot guess what the user has in mind, but there are
choices that are obviously more sensible than others, such as
upgrading a package instead of removing it. Sometimes aptitude
wants to remove hundreds of packages, which is obviously not the
right solution.

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Re: is this sensible?

[Brian]

On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 03:33:40 +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

> What matters is also the list of NEW packages. Your mail was saying:
> 
> The following NEW packages will be installed:
>   gcc-4.9-base gcc-4.9-base:i386 geoclue-2.0 libabw-0.0-0 libaudit-common
>   libaudit1 libboost-date-time1.55.0 libcmis-0.4-4 libe-book-0.0-0 libeot0
>   libetonyek-0.0-0 libfreehand-0.0-0 libharfbuzz-gobject0 libharfbuzz0b
>   libharfbuzz0b:i386 libllvm3.4 libmbim-glib0 libmm-glib0 libmwaw-0.2-2
>   libnvidia-ml1 libpam-systemd libqmi-glib0
>   libreoffice-avmedia-backend-gstreamer libreoffice-base-drivers
>   libsystemd-daemon0 libwebkit2gtk-3.0-25 libwebp5 libxatracker2
> libxshmfence1
>   nvidia-modprobe systemd systemd-sysv xserver-xorg-video-modesetting
> 
> So, systemd is new, and so is libpam-systemd (recommended by systemd).
> Then libpam-systemd has a dependency on systemd-sysv | systemd-shim,
> meaning that since you don't have systemd-sysv or systemd-shim yet,
> systemd-sysv will be taken, and sysvinit will have to be upgraded
> (it is now just a metapackage in unstable, it is no longer the real
> sysvinit -- sysvinit-core is, which you don't have, otherwise it would
> have been in the REMOVED list due to the conflict with systemd-sysv).

If sysvinit-core had been on the system the NEW packages would not have
included systemd-sysv and policykit-1 would have been kept back.


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Re: is this sensible?

[Brian]

On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 03:49:36 +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

> On 2014-06-29 12:52:40 +0200, François Patte wrote:
> > Le 29/06/2014 12:35, Brian a écrit :
> > > If that is what you really want to do you are not going about it in
> > > the right way.
> > > 
> > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/05/msg01042.html
> > 
> > Not sure of what you mean here...
> 
> Not sure either what Brian meant.

We've had "Why should I install systemd?" and "OK but I am wondering why
gthumb (and its dependencies) needs to install systemd". I thought a
thread discussing the issue might be of interest.
 
> > If it is that systemd is unavoidable, [...]
> 
> The systemd package is not needed by gthumb's strict dependencies
> (by "strict" I mean that you need to disable recommends explicitly).
> But you may have other packages that, once upgraded to satisfy
> dependencies, now depend on systemd (I would not be surprised).

* policykit-1 depends on libpam-systemd
* libpam-systemd depends on systemd-sysv or systemd-shim

I don't think systemd-sysv is the issue here but installing systemd-shim
allows the installation of sysvinit-core.

> You could first try to remove all GNOME-related packages (since some
> major GNOME components now depend on the systemd package[*]), then
> upgrade your system to unstable, then reinstall gthumb without
> recommends.

I'd just say "yes"; preferably after a backup.

It has been noted in the past that getting work done without a fuss and
running unstable do not always go hand-in-hand.


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Re: GTK crashing X?

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 11:16:58AM -0700, Matt Ventura wrote:
> I've got a pretty old machine (Celeron 2.8 GHz, ATI rage XL). It's been
> running Debian fine for years, but I reinstalled recently. Installed stable
> (chose XFCE as desktop environment), everything worked fine (lightdm worked,
> xfce worked). Did a dist-upgrade to testing (also tried unstable), and now

Did you downgrade to testing from unstable?

> neither lightdm nor xfce works (lightdm goes into an endless crash loop,
> xfce sends me back to the login screen). I can manually start an X server,
> and it can display basic programs like xclock fine. But as soon as I start a
> GTK application (or at least I think it's GTK causing the problem), X
> crashes with "Segmentation fault at address 0xc" "Fatal server error: Caught
> signal 11 (Segmentation fault). Server aborting". There's nothing in the log
> immediately before the error other than the backtrace.
>
> There doesn't appear to be a problem with any of those components
> individually, since xfce and individual applications will both run perfectly
> fine if I display them on another machine's X, so I'm not even sure what to
> file a bug under.

I'd check the package versions from what you say above about trying stable
unstable and testing. Is the system in a sane state? i.e. does an
apt-get update/upgrade occur without issue?

Just as an aside, if stable was working fine why did you upgrade? 

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Re: flakey wifi access

[ken]

On 06/29/2014 10:50 PM tom arnall wrote:

my wicd agent is unable to connect to wifi at mcDonald's, both in
mexico and the states. it's fine with my home wifi and the coffee shop
i go to. it also fails on the network at the campus where i teach in
mexico.


"Unable to connect" can mean a lot of things.  I recently had a wifi 
connection problem which, using 'ping', I determined to be caused by a 
lot of packets being dropped-- like 30 - 60% of them.  I found that ping 
will return a response in some cases even when it seems there is no 
connection.  You'll need to find out the IP address of the access point 
(AP).  If your system doesn't tell you this, you might ask some other 
user.  Get rates from all APs, working and non-working, and compare them.


Another utility to use is tcpdump.  This will provide very detailed 
information about the packets constituting the connection attempt.


And iwlist will provide info on the available APs.  Noting the relative 
signal strengths and protocols used and other details might point to 
patterns.



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Re: is this sensible?

[berenger . morel]

Le 29.06.2014 00:25, Vincent Lefevre a écrit :

On 2014-06-25 14:26:03 +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
This is the problem with non interactive tools: if you do not master 
the non

interactive tool, you do not have real control on it.

I have learn a lot of things because I used aptitude with it's 
ncurses
interface. It features a preview mode, in which you can see why 
things are
done. With this knowledge, you will be able to customize the 
behavior made

by your update.


In complex cases (like this one?), aptitude is worse than apt-get to
find the right dependencies. It sometimes wants to remove a package
instead of upgrading it, see e.g.

  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=570377

(the ncurses interface, which I always use by default, has the same
problem).

--
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 


Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


Well, I **never** use the aptitude's solutions.

One of the first things I do when using aptitude on a new computer is 
disabling the "auto-repair feature" and automatic installation of 
recommended packages.
Then, when I do some action which breaks something, I can fix it by 
hand, using my own choices, assisted with the preview of the actions 
that I use like a summary of the actions to do/stuff to fix.


I know that it probably needs more time than simply asking to softwares 
to guess what you want, but I am a programmer, and I know that a program 
can never guess what I have in mind, which solution I will prefer. 
Especially since I do behave differently regarding computer choices than 
most people.



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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)

[berenger . morel]

Le 28.06.2014 05:14, slitt a écrit :

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 09:33:57 +0900
Joel Rees  wrote:


On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 7:48 AM, [...]
> Grub is a *boot loader*.

Lately (last few years), it seems to be trying to do a lot more.

> What do you expect it to do? Mind read?

I'd almost say that's one of the things the devs are trying to make
it do.



I have a feeling that a lot of this thread got procmailed to
my /dev/null, but for the person who asked what I wanted it to do,
that's simple: Boot the damn computer with a menu to choose 
predefined
kernel/initrd/disk combinations, and nothing else. And for gosh 
sakes,

keep it in one file. If a config option is about "pretty", leave that
feature out.

In other words, grub1.

SteveT


Otherwise, if you do not like grub, there are other boot loaders. LILO 
at least works fine, and seems to be ok for your requirements: a single 
easy text file as configuration.
It's what I'm doing, excepted at work for 2 reasons: it does not seems 
to support the new crap named... how is it named? Secure boot? Something 
like that. The fun thing about that is that the grub installation did 
not allowed me to have a dual boot with the original windows, so I could 
be using LILO right now it would not change anything.
The other reason is that I do prefer mainstream stuff on computers that 
I do not want to tinker. Never had any problem with LILO, but just in 
case...


I guess that there are other boot loaders (able to work on ext* file 
systems, of course) too around, but I do not know them.



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Re: Linux replacement for Sony PMB?

[Per Andersson]

On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 10:28 PM, Miroslav Skoric  wrote:
> Is there a good replacement for Sony's PMB software? I mean, something that
> can import both photos and videos from a camera, and store & play them in
> the order of date/time of recording.

I use shotwell which has support for images as well as RAW images and videos.
>From screenshots of Sony PMB it seems to be similar.

Other options for images and RAW editing are digikam and darktable. They don't
seem to have video support though.


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