date:20141202


Le 03/12/2014 07:58, Simon Hollenbach a écrit :

Sent this to Pierre's private mail first. Sorry.

Hi Pierre,

you might want to dig further into this,

Mmm, what is my other choice ? W8 ?  Ubuntu ?
as I can't see how a developer could fix the error you are 
experiencing without more information.

But I am ready to spend hours to fix that !
Wht is needed ?
Have you tried chrooting into the unbootable system from an install 
cd's rescue mode? Is there anything suspicious in the logs?

Yes, I can read files from a mive CD. What log shold I search ?


When exactly does the boot-up stall? You don't even see the GRUB menu, 
do you?
I am not sure what is the grub menu, but if it is the blue menu asking 
which debian version to load. I do not arrive there.
In fact, it seems  to me that the disk is not read, but it tries to net 
boot.


Have you tried with another boot loader? Last time I installed, LILO 
was still available for selection from expert install iirc. If the 
system boots with LILO, you would have narrowed down the problem quite 
a bit.
No, sorry, I am not enough expert. If this is a regression in GRUB, it 
must be solved, one way or another.
Debian wheezy works fine on this computer. Jessie has worked too, but no 
more today.


If you do get to GRUB but booting fails afterwards, you can try adding 
debug flags to your kernel options, see:
 This link is for 
Arch, so be careful, not every last bit also applies to Debian, but it 
was the most comprehensive guide I could find now.
I do noth think I go up to grub, but I thnk that something is grub 
broken by the installation of jessie.


Again, I don't think filing a bug without any info but "it doesn't 
work" will get your problem solved.


I am not able to find the bug myself. I am ready to spend hours to fix 
it, but I need the help of someone to tell me where to  search...


Thank you Simon
PC


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

2014-12-02 Thread Erwan David

Le 02/12/2014 23:15, Martin Steigerwald a écrit :
> Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI:
>> On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
>>
>> Aaron Toponce  wrote:
 It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
 systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
 this way.
>>> # apt-get install upstart
>>> # apt-get install sysvinit-core
>>> # apt-get install openrc
>>> No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.
>> Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after Jessie,
>> when systemd may well become compulsory..."
> Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable 
> without having any systemd related package installed.
>
>

The systemd package is just a small part of systemd. I'd like to remove
systemd-logind and lbpam-systemd, sinc I have no clue at all that logind
is better deisgned and programmed than resolved, which showed it was
designed without any care for well known attacks.


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Re: boot fails on jessie on Acer Travelmate

2014-12-02 Thread Simon Hollenbach


Sent this to Pierre's private mail first. Sorry.

Hi Pierre,

you might want to dig further into this, as I can't see how a developer 
could fix the error you are experiencing without more information. Have 
you tried chrooting into the unbootable system from an install cd's 
rescue mode? Is there anything suspicious in the logs?


When exactly does the boot-up stall? You don't even see the GRUB menu, 
do you?


Have you tried with another boot loader? Last time I installed, LILO was 
still available for selection from expert install iirc. If the system 
boots with LILO, you would have narrowed down the problem quite a bit.


If you do get to GRUB but booting fails afterwards, you can try adding 
debug flags to your kernel options, see:
 This link is for 
Arch, so be careful, not every last bit also applies to Debian, but it 
was the most comprehensive guide I could find now.


Again, I don't think filing a bug without any info but "it doesn't work" 
will get your problem solved.


Good luck,
Simon



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Re: boot fails on jessie on Acer Travelmate


Le 03/12/2014 06:24, Charlie a écrit :

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 03:04:00 +0100 Pierre Couderc sent:


Save the file and the do an apt-get update  and  apt-get upgrade.
When this is complete and everything is configured.

I did that. But I had to repeat the upgrade operation many times
until I get a clear system with no more packet loaded with the last
upgrade.

Strange indeed.



Thank you Charlie,
But as I did all on correctly - I hope -, I think that this is a bug 
linked to my own computer.

So I want to declare it and my question is : where ?
If I get no better  answer, I sall declare it in grub-common


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Re: boot fails on jessie on Acer Travelmate

2014-12-02 Thread Charlie

On Wed, 03 Dec 2014 03:04:00 +0100 Pierre Couderc sent:

> > Save the file and the do an apt-get update  and  apt-get upgrade.
> > When this is complete and everything is configured.  
> I did that. But I had to repeat the upgrade operation many times
> until I get a clear system with no more packet loaded with the last
> upgrade.

Strange indeed. 

Update, so I have found, is only one pass. Upgrade is also only one
pass, unless you do apt-get dist-upgrade after upgrade. That will often
bring in new packages or want to remove some.

If your bandwidth drops out or is particularly slow you might need to
upgrade a couple of times, but you should get a message that the server
wasn't found or lost etc..

I have never had your problem?

But then things might have changed recently, and I don't have to install
any Debian system for anyone at the moment so can't test it.

Have you tried a different mirror? I sometimes need to do that because
there is work being done on the one I use and it delivers an error
message telling me that the packages aren't signed? Or just wait.

Otherwise my apologies for I have no idea what else might be the matter.

Hope you can resolve it or someone who actually has some idea about
what's causing this speaks up.

Be well,
Charlie

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the clouds and storms and quicksands and thousand-and-one items
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Re: boot fails on jessie on Acer Travelmate


Le 03/12/2014 01:17, Charlie a écrit :


Thank you very much  !

On Tue, 02 Dec 2014 23:27:13 +0100 Pierre Couderc sent:


1- install wheezy, all is ok, I boot and boot again.  I change it to
jessie (following standard instructions)

This may not help at all because things may have changed in the last
couple of months, but I'll give it a larrup.

I don't know what the "standard instructions" are?

This is exactly what you say above.


If you can install wheezy with a minimum install, no packages other
than what you need to get a bootable system, and you're doing a net
install.
I did that : only standard utilities. Boot  and reboot, and rereboot to 
be well sure.

By only installing the minimum packages on the install of wheezy, you
don't get a lot of stuff left behind from the change to jessie.

On the reboot ***after*** removing the CD/USB stick or whatever, just go
into your /etc/apt/sources.list and change every instance of wheezy to
jessie.

I did that.

Save the file and the do an apt-get update  and  apt-get upgrade. When
this is complete and everything is configured.
I did that. But I had to repeat the upgrade operation many times until I 
get a clear system with no more packet loaded with the last upgrade.



  Reboot.

:(

Should then be fine.

:(   :(


Like I say: if nothing has changed in the last couple of months since I
installed a jessie system on a clean machine. This way has always worked
for me in the past, but your mileage may vary.
As I imagine this has been tested thousand times in the world , I thnk 
this may be a problem due my particular computer.
And I would like to report it as a bug. But I do not know in which 
package : grub-common ?



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Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie

2014-12-02 Thread Brian

On Tue 02 Dec 2014 at 18:37:04 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:

> Brian wrote:
> >On Tue 02 Dec 2014 at 16:52:46 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> >
> >>Brian wrote:
> >>>On Wed 03 Dec 2014 at 02:27:26 +1100, Scott Ferguson wrote:
> >>>
> >Do you have a citation for this?
> I'm glad you asked.
> No - I "presumed" that amongst the "lots" of experts so opposed to the
> late-command option, at least one of them would apply Kenshi's patch
> (which apparently works) to d-i. Was my mistake an assumption that any
> of them would do more than demand? (have any of them even, including
> one of the noisier posters on this list who commented in that thread,
> done any of the bug-tested he widely requested?)
> >>>You do us a service by raising this.
> >>>
> >>>We are lead to believe there is a huge number of people who want to
> >>>preseed d-i to have a "clean install". Not one person on -user or -devel
> >>>has indicated any success with using the patch or given any detail which
> >>>would allow anyone to follow in their footsteps and test it.
> >>>
> >>>Why not? Is it so difficult? Is it beyond the capabilities of a user
> >>>with technical skills? Looks like half an hour's work to me. Those who
> >>>have a vested interest in the issue seem reluctant to turn "apparently
> >>>works" into "does work" or "does not work".
> >>>
> >>>Until we get some testing and substantial feedback, using this patch to
> >>>beat the anti-systemd drum should be seen as noise.
> >>>
> >>Well, actually, it does involve a little more than downloading
> >>debootstrap, applying the patch, and compiling.  One has to build a
> >>custom copy of d-i to actually make use of it.  That's  bit of a
> >>complicated procedure.
> >Why does debootstrap have to be downloaded and a custom copy of d-i
> >built? Suppose the patch were applied to debootstrap in a running d-i.
> >Why wouldn't that be sufficient for testing?
> >
> >That's a straightforward technical question, incidentally.
> 
> Also a straightforward technical question:  How would one actually do that?

I think I asked my question first. :)

> It looks to me like d-i starts up, then pulls in debootstrap and
> starts it running.  I've spent a little bit of time looking at how

Debootstrap only runs when the base system is installed. I assume it
runs whatever is in /usr/sbin and /usr/share/debootstrap. Now - what
happens if you alter these files before installing the base system?

> d-i figures out where to look for debootstrap, and got to the point
> of concluding that I either had to put the patched debootstrap in
> the repo (not going to happen) or build a customized d-i that looks
> for the patched debootstrap somewhere else.  That's the point at
> which I decided that, not being much of a c coder, I really didn't
> want to mess with things.
> 
> If you have a straightforward suggestion, please

Debootstrap is mainly a bunch of scripts. The patch is applied to the
scripts.


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Re: boot fails on jessie on Acer Travelmate

2014-12-02 Thread Charlie

On Tue, 02 Dec 2014 23:27:13 +0100 Pierre Couderc sent:

> 1- install wheezy, all is ok, I boot and boot again.  I change it to 
> jessie (following standard instructions)

This may not help at all because things may have changed in the last
couple of months, but I'll give it a larrup.

I don't know what the "standard instructions" are?

If you can install wheezy with a minimum install, no packages other
than what you need to get a bootable system, and you're doing a net
install.

By only installing the minimum packages on the install of wheezy, you
don't get a lot of stuff left behind from the change to jessie.

On the reboot ***after*** removing the CD/USB stick or whatever, just go
into your /etc/apt/sources.list and change every instance of wheezy to
jessie.

Save the file and the do an apt-get update  and  apt-get upgrade. When
this is complete and everything is configured. Reboot.

Should then be fine.

Like I say: if nothing has changed in the last couple of months since I
installed a jessie system on a clean machine. This way has always worked
for me in the past, but your mileage may vary.

Best of luck,
Charlie

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David Thoreau

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Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie

2014-12-02 Thread Miles Fidelman


Brian wrote:

On Tue 02 Dec 2014 at 16:52:46 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:


Brian wrote:

On Wed 03 Dec 2014 at 02:27:26 +1100, Scott Ferguson wrote:


Do you have a citation for this?

I'm glad you asked.
No - I "presumed" that amongst the "lots" of experts so opposed to the
late-command option, at least one of them would apply Kenshi's patch
(which apparently works) to d-i. Was my mistake an assumption that any
of them would do more than demand? (have any of them even, including
one of the noisier posters on this list who commented in that thread,
done any of the bug-tested he widely requested?)

You do us a service by raising this.

We are lead to believe there is a huge number of people who want to
preseed d-i to have a "clean install". Not one person on -user or -devel
has indicated any success with using the patch or given any detail which
would allow anyone to follow in their footsteps and test it.

Why not? Is it so difficult? Is it beyond the capabilities of a user
with technical skills? Looks like half an hour's work to me. Those who
have a vested interest in the issue seem reluctant to turn "apparently
works" into "does work" or "does not work".

Until we get some testing and substantial feedback, using this patch to
beat the anti-systemd drum should be seen as noise.


Well, actually, it does involve a little more than downloading
debootstrap, applying the patch, and compiling.  One has to build a
custom copy of d-i to actually make use of it.  That's  bit of a
complicated procedure.

Why does debootstrap have to be downloaded and a custom copy of d-i
built? Suppose the patch were applied to debootstrap in a running d-i.
Why wouldn't that be sufficient for testing?

That's a straightforward technical question, incidentally.


Also a straightforward technical question:  How would one actually do that?

It looks to me like d-i starts up, then pulls in debootstrap and starts 
it running.  I've spent a little bit of time looking at how d-i figures 
out where to look for debootstrap, and got to the point of concluding 
that I either had to put the patched debootstrap in the repo (not going 
to happen) or build a customized d-i that looks for the patched 
debootstrap somewhere else.  That's the point at which I decided that, 
not being much of a c coder, I really didn't want to mess with things.


If you have a straightforward suggestion, please




 Personally, I'd rather wait for the
installer team to fix a bug that has rather broad implications.

In other words, you'd rather not know whether the patch works (whether
the procedure is complicated or not). It cannot be that important to you
then.


No... I kind of figure that deboostrap should actually work properly, 
and that as a core piece of system code, the maintenance team should 
care enough to actually fix this kind of bug.  It was sitting there long 
enough.  That, in itself, is a datapoint for me in making decisions 
about future reliance on Debian.



I also seem to recall seeing at least one report of someone who'd
done the test.

Not what I would call substantial feedback.



True enough.

Miles Fidelman

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In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie

2014-12-02 Thread Brian

On Tue 02 Dec 2014 at 16:52:46 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:

> Brian wrote:
> >On Wed 03 Dec 2014 at 02:27:26 +1100, Scott Ferguson wrote:
> >
> >>>Do you have a citation for this?
> >>I'm glad you asked.
> >>No - I "presumed" that amongst the "lots" of experts so opposed to the
> >>late-command option, at least one of them would apply Kenshi's patch
> >>(which apparently works) to d-i. Was my mistake an assumption that any
> >>of them would do more than demand? (have any of them even, including
> >>one of the noisier posters on this list who commented in that thread,
> >>done any of the bug-tested he widely requested?)
> >You do us a service by raising this.
> >
> >We are lead to believe there is a huge number of people who want to
> >preseed d-i to have a "clean install". Not one person on -user or -devel
> >has indicated any success with using the patch or given any detail which
> >would allow anyone to follow in their footsteps and test it.
> >
> >Why not? Is it so difficult? Is it beyond the capabilities of a user
> >with technical skills? Looks like half an hour's work to me. Those who
> >have a vested interest in the issue seem reluctant to turn "apparently
> >works" into "does work" or "does not work".
> >
> >Until we get some testing and substantial feedback, using this patch to
> >beat the anti-systemd drum should be seen as noise.
> >
> 
> Well, actually, it does involve a little more than downloading
> debootstrap, applying the patch, and compiling.  One has to build a
> custom copy of d-i to actually make use of it.  That's  bit of a
> complicated procedure.

Why does debootstrap have to be downloaded and a custom copy of d-i
built? Suppose the patch were applied to debootstrap in a running d-i. 
Why wouldn't that be sufficient for testing?

That's a straightforward technical question, incidentally.

> Personally, I'd rather wait for the
> installer team to fix a bug that has rather broad implications.

In other words, you'd rather not know whether the patch works (whether
the procedure is complicated or not). It cannot be that important to you
then.

> I also seem to recall seeing at least one report of someone who'd
> done the test.

Not what I would call substantial feedback.


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Getting a custom package into a new system early in the install process

2014-12-02 Thread Ross Boylan

I have a customized package, adduser, that I want to get into new VM's
early in the wheezy installation process. In particular, it must
happen before installing the "debian basic system tools" (DBST
hereafter) recommended when the installer gets to task selection. The
modified adduser tweaks the UID/GID assignments and the DBST
installation creates some of those incorrectly.

The rest of this message gives some approaches I've thought of and
problems with each.

My first thought was that I could point the installer at the host
machine and have a thin cache there that would use my adduser if asked
for that, and otherwise forward requests to somewhere else. But the
closest thing I've found is that I could set up an alternate
repository with the package.(1) Unfortunately, debootstrap only can
use one repository
(https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=76).

At task selection the regular apt mechanisms may be in use, in which
case adding repositories to sources.list would work. How could I
intervene to modify the sources.list in time?

Alternately I could take an installer disk image and modify it. I've
been using netinst, which I don't think has many (any?) regular debs
on it, as opposed to udebs. Perhaps I should try some fatter image
and tweak the archive.

It's also possible that if I skipped even the base packages at the
task step things would be OK. I know that if I debootstrap a system
and avoid installing extras the result is OK (i.e., not IDs allocated
in a way that conflicts with my desired scheme). But it's not clear
how I could install those packages later; the list of tasks under
aptitude does not include a "base packages" task. Maybe it's all
"essential" packages?

Thanks for any help.

Ross Boylan

(1) And presenting a merged view of a synthetic repository with one
package replaced would be tricky, because various master files would
need to be different from upstream to avoid security problems with the
modified package.

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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

2014-12-02 Thread Aaron Toponce

On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 06:47:38PM -0300, Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after Jessie,
> when systemd may well become compulsory..."

Most would call that FUD.

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. . o   . o o   o . o   . o o   . . o
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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

2014-12-02 Thread Martin Steigerwald

Am Dienstag, 2. Dezember 2014, 18:47:38 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI:
> On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
> 
> Aaron Toponce  wrote:
> > > It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
> > > systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
> > > this way.
> > 
> > # apt-get install upstart
> > # apt-get install sysvinit-core
> > # apt-get install openrc
> > No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.
> 
> Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after Jessie,
> when systemd may well become compulsory..."

Or going beyond what is offered in Debian… like making GNOME installable 
without having any systemd related package installed.

I.e. making:

merkaba:~> LANG=C apt-get purge systemd
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree   
Reading state information... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer 
required:
  amor analitza-common blinken cantor cantor-backend-kalgebra filelight 
kaccessible kalgebra kalgebra-common kalzium kalzium-data kanagram
  kbruch kcharselect kcolorchooser kde-config-cron kde-icons-mono 
kdeaccessibility kdeadmin kdeartwork kdeartwork-style
  kdeartwork-theme-window kdeartwork-wallpapers kdeedu kdeedu-kvtml-data 
kdegraphics kdegraphics-mobipocket kdegraphics-strigi-analyzer
  kdegraphics-thumbnailers kdemultimedia kdenetwork kdenetwork-filesharing 
kdetoys kdeutils kdf kgamma kgeography kgeography-data kgpg
  khangman kig kiten klettres klettres-data kmag kmousetool kmplot 
kolourpaint4 kppp krdc kremotecontrol krfb kruler ksaneplugin kscd kstars
  kstars-data ksystemlog kteatime ktimer ktouch ktouch-data kturtle ktux kuser 
kwordquiz libanalitza5abi1 libanalitzagui5abi1
  libanalitzaplot5abi1 libkdeedu-data libkeduvocdocument4 libkiten4abi1 marble 
pairs parley parley-data plasma-scriptengine-superkaramba
  print-manager qtdeclarative4-kqtquickcharts-1 rocs step
Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  colord* gvfs* gvfs-backends* gvfs-daemons* hplip* hplip-gui* k3b* k3b-i18n* 
kde-full* kde-plasma-desktop* kde-plasma-netbook* kde-standard*
  libpam-systemd* libvirt-daemon-system* network-manager* packagekit* 
packagekit-tools* plasma-nm* plasma-widget-networkmanagement*
  policykit-1* policykit-1-gnome* polkit-kde-1* printer-driver-postscript-hp* 
systemd* systemd-ui* udisks2*
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 26 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
After this operation, 57.9 MB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n]

work.

And well systemd-shim and cgmanager *are* installed.

But that would be the bigger work… as it needs patching of upstream projects 
*or* implementing the required functionality elsewhise.

Ciao,
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Re: Stale file in Debian after change of equivs package

2014-12-02 Thread Bob Proulx

Don Armstrong wrote:
> mad wrote:
> > I am using equivs to create simple packages with dependencies and a few
> > files.
> > 
> > Now I removed one file from the equivs package and installed the
> > resulting deb file. The deb file does not contain the file but dpkg did
> > not remove the old file and says that the file belongs to the package.
> > 
> > What did I do wrong?
> 
> Files in /etc are usually conffiles, which are not removed on upgrade by
> default. Presumably equivs is following standard practice, and marking
> them as such unless you do work to avoid it. 

Likely.  If so you can test for this by querying the package database.

  dpkg-query -W -f='${Conffiles}\n' foopackagenamehere

That will list out the files from that package along with the checksum
of it.  If you want a full dump from the system then don't specify a
package name.  But then better "page" it or grep for just what you
want.  I have 121 of them on my system from various packages.

  dpkg-query -W -f='${Conffiles}\n' | grep obsolete

Bob

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boot fails on jessie on Acer Travelmate


Hello

I have a problem with  jessie : my Acer Travelmate (P253) refuses to boot.

I have used 2 methods :
1- install wheezy, all is ok, I boot and boot again.  I change it to 
jessie (following standard instructions) : I can boot no more
2- I have used net installer debian-jessie-DI-b2-amd64-netinst.iso . 
Same problem.


There is no message, but it seems that the HDD is not seen and the PC 
tries to boot on the network.


I have repeated many times the problem, so I suppose it is not a mistake 
of mine.
I think that it did boot correctly with wheezy, but a regression in 
jessie creates the problem.


1- what am I missing ?
2- if it is a bug, in what package should I declare it ?

I am willing to help to fix the bug, if any.

Thank you in advance

Pierre Couderc


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Re: bind9 needs sometimes a restart after resume from suspend

2014-12-02 Thread Bob Proulx

Karl E. Jorgensen wrote:
> I wonder... What exactly does "bind not responding" mean? any command
> that reproduces that would be handy.
>
> As this is happening in relation to suspend/resume, this would imply
> that network interfaces go down and up too. So perhaps bind is failing
> to detect the re-arrival of network interfaces?
>
> The output of a command like "sudo netstat -nlp | grep bind" while
> bind is not responding would be instructive. And then compare/contrast
> with the scenario of a "working" bind...

I think that is a good debugging direction.  For reasons I haven't
looked into BIND will bind to specific addresses.  There is always
127.0.0.1:53.  Plus there will be one for each interface.

Try:

  $ netstat -na | awk '$NF=="LISTEN"&&/:53/'

With this example output from a system.

  tcp0  0 192.168.2.34:53 0.0.0.0:*   LISTEN
  tcp0  0 127.0.0.1:530.0.0.0:*   LISTEN
  tcp6   0  0 :::53684:::*LISTEN
  tcp6   0  0 :::53   :::*LISTEN

It may be that something is dropping the network offline and the
suspend-resume is simply cycling the network off and on again and
restoring the network connection.  Maybe the root cause isn't BIND but
rather that the network has gone offline.

  $ ip addr show | awk '$1=="inet"'
inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo
inet 192.168.2.34/24 brd 192.168.230.255 scope global br0

I would also want to know what is in /etc/resolv.conf to know if it is
configured for the local nameserver.  And also what "hosts" entry is
listed in /etc/nsswitch.conf to see how it is configured.

  $ grep nameserver /etc/resolv.conf
  nameserver 127.0.0.1

  $ grep hosts /etc/nsswitch.conf
  hosts:  files dns

Lastly this *shouldn't* be related to any DNS lookups but the contents
of /etc/hosts is the "files" part in the above.  It is possible that
contents of /etc/hosts might be confusing the issue of thinking bind
isn't working properly.  Shouldn't be since it apparently works after
a suspend-resume but mentioning it here for completeness anyway.

Bob

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Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie

2014-12-02 Thread Miles Fidelman


Brian wrote:

On Wed 03 Dec 2014 at 02:27:26 +1100, Scott Ferguson wrote:


Do you have a citation for this?

I'm glad you asked.
No - I "presumed" that amongst the "lots" of experts so opposed to the
late-command option, at least one of them would apply Kenshi's patch
(which apparently works) to d-i. Was my mistake an assumption that any
of them would do more than demand? (have any of them even, including
one of the noisier posters on this list who commented in that thread,
done any of the bug-tested he widely requested?)

You do us a service by raising this.

We are lead to believe there is a huge number of people who want to
preseed d-i to have a "clean install". Not one person on -user or -devel
has indicated any success with using the patch or given any detail which
would allow anyone to follow in their footsteps and test it.

Why not? Is it so difficult? Is it beyond the capabilities of a user
with technical skills? Looks like half an hour's work to me. Those who
have a vested interest in the issue seem reluctant to turn "apparently
works" into "does work" or "does not work".

Until we get some testing and substantial feedback, using this patch to
beat the anti-systemd drum should be seen as noise.



Well, actually, it does involve a little more than downloading 
debootstrap, applying the patch, and compiling.  One has to build a 
custom copy of d-i to actually make use of it.  That's  bit of a 
complicated procedure.  Personally, I'd rather wait for the installer 
team to fix a bug that has rather broad implications.


I also seem to recall seeing at least one report of someone who'd done 
the test.


Miles Fidelman





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In practice, there is.    Yogi Berra


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

2014-12-02 Thread Ron

On Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:22:13 -0700
Aaron Toponce  wrote:

> > It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
> > systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
> > this way.  
 
> # apt-get install upstart
> # apt-get install sysvinit-core
> # apt-get install openrc
> No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.

Another way to look at it is "forward planning for the release after Jessie, 
when systemd may well become compulsory..."
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
 To delight in war is a merit in the soldier,
 a dangerous quality in the captain,
and a positive crime in the statesman.
  -- George Santayana

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

2014-12-02 Thread Aaron Toponce

On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 09:40:20PM +0100, Märk Owen wrote:
> It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
> systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
> this way.

# apt-get install upstart
# apt-get install sysvinit-core
# apt-get install openrc

No one is forcing you to stick with systemd. The "fork" is just silly.

-- 
. o .   o . o   . . o   o . .   . o .
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o o o   . o .   . o o   o o .   o o o


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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

2014-12-02 Thread Märk Owen

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 02 Dec 2014 10:47:19 +0100
maderios  wrote:

> Hi guys
> Not for me but interesting.
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTg1MDQ

It's a waste. They shouldn't have left. I'm pretty neutral about
systemd as I'm only an end user but I disklike having it forced upon me
this way.

These guys should have kept working on Debian and made sure every
package is compatible with whichever init system we choose.

Too bad, it won't happen. DI doubt very much that Devuan will last.
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Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie

2014-12-02 Thread Ric Moore


On 12/02/2014 02:34 AM, Stephan Seitz wrote:


Debian has kindled a big fire with this systemd crap. It’s time to jump
ship before you only have ashes.

Shade and sweet water!

 Stephan


yes! Yes! RUNAWAY!!   :) Ric



--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie

2014-12-02 Thread Brian

On Wed 03 Dec 2014 at 02:27:26 +1100, Scott Ferguson wrote:

> > Do you have a citation for this?
> 
> I'm glad you asked.
> No - I "presumed" that amongst the "lots" of experts so opposed to the
> late-command option, at least one of them would apply Kenshi's patch
> (which apparently works) to d-i. Was my mistake an assumption that any
> of them would do more than demand? (have any of them even, including
> one of the noisier posters on this list who commented in that thread,
> done any of the bug-tested he widely requested?)

You do us a service by raising this.

We are lead to believe there is a huge number of people who want to
preseed d-i to have a "clean install". Not one person on -user or -devel
has indicated any success with using the patch or given any detail which
would allow anyone to follow in their footsteps and test it.

Why not? Is it so difficult? Is it beyond the capabilities of a user
with technical skills? Looks like half an hour's work to me. Those who
have a vested interest in the issue seem reluctant to turn "apparently
works" into "does work" or "does not work".

Until we get some testing and substantial feedback, using this patch to
beat the anti-systemd drum should be seen as noise.

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Re: Debian fork: 'Devuan', Debian without Systemd

2014-12-02 Thread Ric Moore


On 12/02/2014 04:47 AM, maderios wrote:

Hi guys
Not for me but interesting.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTg1MDQ


"# More about the vision

This is just a start, as bold as it sounds to call it fork, at a
process that will unfold in time and involve more people, first to
import and change Debian packages and later on to maintain them under
a separate course. To help with this adventure and its growth, we ask
you all to get involved, but also to donate money so that we can cover
the costs of setting the new infrastructure in place.
https://devuan.org/donate.html   "

So kiddies, be sure to send in your checks and money orders so you can 
all put your money where your mouth is.  Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256


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Re: Stale file in Debian after change of equivs package

2014-12-02 Thread Don Armstrong

On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, mad wrote:
> I am using equivs to create simple packages with dependencies and a few
> files.
> 
> Now I removed one file from the equivs package and installed the
> resulting deb file. The deb file does not contain the file but dpkg did
> not remove the old file and says that the file belongs to the package.
> 
> What did I do wrong?

Files in /etc are usually conffiles, which are not removed on upgrade by
default. Presumably equivs is following standard practice, and marking
them as such unless you do work to avoid it. 

If removal is what you want, see dpkg-maintscript-helper's rm_conffile
for code which will enable you to safely remove the conffile.
[Alternatively, if this is a private package, and you're sure that
test1.conf will never be needed, you can unconditionally remove it in
the new version's .postinst or similar.]

-- 
Don Armstrong  http://www.donarmstrong.com

Any excuse will serve a tyrant.
 -- Aesop

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Re: udev memory problem when trying to plug a disk with corrupted partition table

2014-12-02 Thread tv.deb...@googlemail.com


On 02/12/2014 20:48, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
[cut]


Also, what is EBR (or EPBR, which seems to be some sort of enhanced
whatever may be a EBR)?


Extended Boot Record on DOS disks ? Where information about extended 
partition is stored.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_boot_record


To fix things, I tried to take a look at

testdisk, which was able to find partitions. Lot of them, in facts,
included lot of... removed partitions (I did a lot of experiments on
that disk before). Plus, I have no idea about how to ask it (testdisk)
to fix, apply things?
Any document about how to use it? Not the man, I already have read it,
and it's plain useless.




I think you read French, if not the page is available in English too.

http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk_FR

It's from TestDisk author.

Hope it helps.


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Re: udev memory problem when trying to plug a disk with corrupted partition table


Le 20.11.2014 22:26, Scott Ferguson a écrit :

On 21/11/14 06:45, Pascal Hambourg wrote:

Scott Ferguson a écrit :


Might be worth fscking the disk first in case that's where the 
problem lies.


Why ? fsck works on filesystems, not disks or partition tables.


Good question - because I didn't spend much time thinking about it, 
or,
because I haven't used ms-dos partition tables for a very long time? 
:/


Regardless - maybe badblocks would be a better way of checking if the
problem is a result of damage to where the E(P)BRs are written?
Certainly simpler than examining the E(P)BRs for errors which would 
be

my next course of action if I had no backups of the disk.

(I suspect) There are at least two possible scenarios(?) which would
result in a problem that the OP is experiencing[*1]:-
;the OP accidentally overwrote an EBR i.e. created another extended
partition at some later point (1st sector of the extended partition?)
;a damaged sector containing an EBR

In the first case parted rescue may/should be able to fix the 
problem.


The OP could probably get more info by checking the E(P)BRs. The 
problem

'might' be in the first or last E(P)BR (again, I 'suspect' Martin is
right about the looping)
Perhaps (from unreliable memory):-
dd if=/dev/sdc bs=512 count=1 skip=22026238 | hexdump -C
likewise with the last extended partition, and then the same on the
E(P)BRs 'might' show the error?

I note that's a lot of suspicions, mights, and guesses - but again, I
welcome input and correction.


[*1] I'm guessing, and welcome input - as I suspect would the OP


An interesting problem, sadly the person most likely to know the 
answer

hasn't been seen on the lists for some time.


Kind regards


First, sorry for delay and thanks for replies. I won't have time to fix 
this for now, I will try to find time ASAP. Not that I really mind the 
data which were on that disk, but it will allow me to tinker with 
partition tables and such things on which I do not have a good 
knowledge.
I had even no idea that logical partitions were a chained list, but now 
that you say it, it makes sense.


Also, what is EBR (or EPBR, which seems to be some sort of enhanced 
whatever may be a EBR)? To fix things, I tried to take a look at 
testdisk, which was able to find partitions. Lot of them, in facts, 
included lot of... removed partitions (I did a lot of experiments on 
that disk before). Plus, I have no idea about how to ask it (testdisk) 
to fix, apply things?
Any document about how to use it? Not the man, I already have read it, 
and it's plain useless.



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Re: XDG Standard is not evil (was: Re: Why focus on systemd?)


Le 27.11.2014 03:04, Serge a écrit :
Later some people started to abuse those directories and put there 
files,
that never supposed to be there. Those people don't really think 
about
standards or unification. Usually they just enable displaying hidden 
files
in their file manager, see a lot of dotfiles in a home directory and 
think
that "this is wrong". They start searching how to "fix" this, find 
xdg

basedir-spec, and use it as an excuse for moving ~/.appname files, to
~/.config/appname, or worse, split them among .config, .local, 
.cache...


If only rogues can put their configuration files in a subdirectory of a 
common directory, then every application is a rogue, since all 
applications put their configuration files in the $HOME directory or any 
of it's subdirectories.


The point is that, applications using $HOME instead of $XDG_CONFIG_HOME 
does not only put their configuration there, but all their files. So, 
thanks to those ones, you will have things like: .bashrc, .bash_history, 
.dmenu_cache, .prxAEIHar (try to guess what's this file? I myself have 
no idea... reading it, it seems it's related to xosview?) etc.
Ok, now, you only want to save your configuration files. Which ones 
will you take? Or, for a reason you want to use an application which is 
not installed on your system, but in a remote file system that you can't 
access everytime. If this application puts everything in $HOME, then 
you'll have useless things on your local machine, but if it uses XDG 
directories, you can mount/bind/whatever the distant directory to a 
point in $XDG_CONFIG_HOME.


Another nice thing:
Imagine I use several softwares which are not pieces of an existing 
monolithic DE.
Imagine I would like to write an application to manage configuration of 
those applications I am using.
I will probably have to use the strategy design pattern[1] because 
configuration formats will differ (key=value in INI-style way, 
xml-erk-style format...) and have plug-ins to manage those formats, but 
there are quite common ways, easy to parse, like good ol' INI (like 
gftp, but you'll probably find many others lying around on your own 
computer), or ugly (my opinion) XML.
Ok, so, we sometimes have common formats, which might be used by 
several applications I use. So, maybe we could find some which shares 
common features? Like, for example, binding a shorcut to open a file 
(pretty common, right?) or move your character in an FPS game?
For this, I could ask my plug-ins to extract, in all configuration 
files of $XDG_CONFIG_HOME, everything which looks like being able to 
open a file (some regexes on the key's name should do the work in many 
cases), and refer the folder's name which contains the files to identify 
which software uses it.
Then, I could ask the user if he want to define a new shortcut for some 
specified set of applications (or to all? Why not?).
Ok, then, now, the user can have a way to configure everything on his 
computer, without those applications having been written to be integrate 
in any DE. Of course, DEs can use it too, but, I made the choice to not 
use such things, because I think that there is too much bloat.


This would be harder, by far, if every application just puts things, 
sometimes in $HOME/.application, or $HOME/.application.conf, or 
$HOME/.application/config or $HOME/.application/application.config (not 
to speak about those nasty rc files!).


Last but not least, it means that one could write a library to manage 
configuration files, which could be reused, because things goes in some 
predefined places, in a predefined order. No need to learn that 
.bash_profile is read before .profile... oh, sorry, bash does not uses 
XDG dirs.


So, I can see advantages. Several ones.

I'll try to find the problems now: the application have to be made 
correctly enough to not trust the content of an environment variable, 
because it may try to trick the software, for buffer overflows, code 
injections, or less dangerous things like behavior changing depending on 
the moment, if the application re-read the environment variable.

That's all I can find.

They don't think about /etc/xdg, they don't read FHS or other XDG 
standards,


Well... honestly, I would not follow FHS blindlessly, obviously. 
Because, well... it does not works on Microsoft Windows, first, which is 
a widely used system, and I prefer to make things portable (so I would 
use a different mechanism on windows than on Debian to read default 
configuration files) plus, FHS is not followed in the same way 
everywhere: in *BSD, I think the softwares you will install through the 
package manager will not go into /usr/bin, but in /usr/local/bin. On 
some linux distro, it may go in /opt. How could I know? Even UNIX-style 
OSes disagree!
About other XDG standards, well... I do not have to use dbus stuff to 
know what directory I should use to store my specific user's 
configuration, right?


they don't care about people who have to do 2-4 times m

Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie

On 3 December 2014 at 01:36, The Wanderer  wrote:
> On 12/02/2014 at 07:23 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>
>> On 2 December 2014 at 18:05, Patrick Bartek 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>
 Depends on what 'you' call "*default*". It implies a choice - as
 opposed to "*mandatory*".
>>>
>>> You do have a choice, but ONLY after systemd is installed and the
>>> system is running.
>>
>> It will soon be possible to choose before installation. And always a
>> reboot is
>
> (I presume this was truncated somehow?)

Yes, sorry. Flat battery - resumed from Draft and missed that.

Should have been:-
And always a reboot is necessary after installation - so a
preseed/late_command will allow you to boot for the first time into
non-systemd system.

preseed/late_command="in-target apt-get install -y sysvinit-core"

A simple bash script makes rebuilding an install CD to include that
preseed parameter a simple - quick process for those that want to use
the GUI install option.

>
> Do you have a citation for this?

I'm glad you asked.
No - I "presumed" that amongst the "lots" of experts so opposed to the
late-command option, at least one of them would apply Kenshi's patch
(which apparently works) to d-i. Was my mistake an assumption that any
of them would do more than demand? (have any of them even, including
one of the noisier posters on this list who commented in that thread,
done any of the bug-tested he widely requested?)

>
> the decision was made that no, it won't be touched for jessie
>
> which sounds to me as if such a change is not going to happen "soon".

That I strongly suspect is correct - but not for the same reasons.

Kind regards

--
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swallow it whole" ~ Frank Zappa

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Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie

On 3 December 2014 at 01:18, Joel Rees  wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 9:23 PM, Scott Ferguson
>  wrote:
>> On 2 December 2014 at 18:05, Patrick Bartek  wrote:
>>> On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>>>
 On 2 December 2014 at 08:18, Patrick Bartek 
 wrote:
 > On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote:
 >
 >> On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
 >>

>>> As far as I've read, I believe only Slackware absolutely refuses to use
>>> systemd.



>>He's never said that (though I'd welcome an
>> authoritive correction). Understandably cautious for someone who
>> manages a huge workload almost single-handedly.
>> He has said he intends to remain with the current init system - that
>> he likes some of the abilities of systemd, and that "one day" he may
>> move to systemd.[*1] Which is not close to "absolutely refuses to use
>> systemd".
>>
>> [*1]:-
>> http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/interviews-28/interview-with-patrick-volkerding-of-slackware-949029/
>
> Let's quote a little bit more of that, just for completeness:

Did you read what you are responding to - or what you've just quoted??

>
> --
> ... Whether we end up using them or not remains to be seen. It's quite
> possible that we won't end up having a choice in the matter depending
> on how development that's out of our hands goes. It's hard to say
> whether moving to these technologies would be a good thing for
> Slackware overall. Concerning systemd, I do like the idea of a faster
> boot time (obviously), but I also like controlling the startup of the
> system with shell scripts that are readable, and I'm guessing that's
> what most Slackware users prefer too. I don't spend all day rebooting
> my machine, and having looked at systemd config files it seems to me a
> very foreign way of controlling a system to me, and attempting to
> control services, sockets, devices, mounts, etc., all within one
> daemon flies in the face of the UNIX concept of doing one thing and
> doing it well.
>
> ...
> --
>
> That, and some tweets that are more recent than this interview, leaves
> me with a slightly different impression than neutral wait-and-see.

[facepalm]

>
> [...]
>
> --
> Joel Rees
>
> Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
> Look first in your own heart,
> and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy.
> Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well.

Brilliant satire(?)
>
>
Kind regards

--
"Let's not be too rough on our own ignorance; it's what makes America great!" ~
Frank Zappa


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Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie

On 2 December 2014 at 23:53, Joel Rees  wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 9:04 PM, Laurent Bigonville  wrote:
>> Le Mon, 1 Dec 2014 23:05:09 -0800,
>> Patrick Bartek  a écrit :
>>
>>> On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>>>
>>> > On 2 December 2014 at 08:18, Patrick Bartek 
>>> > wrote:
>>> > > On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > >> On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>>> > >>

>>>
>>> As far as I've read, I believe only Slackware absolutely refuses to
>>> use systemd.  I don't even think it's in the repo.  I don't know if
>>> systemd will even work with Slackware.
>>
>>
>> Well according to the following wikipedia page, Patrick Volkerding
>> (Slackware founder) has not completely ruled you systemd:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#Adoption
>
> Hmm. So I do a web search on "Patrick Volkerding systemd" and find
> he's tweeted twice about systemd in the last four tweets. One was a
> bit of an enigmatic tweet about crying into his coffee when he read
> boycottsystemd.org and realized he wasn't reading the Onion.

> https://twitter.com/volkerdi/status/460102616991547393

Enigmatic? Doesn't seem difficult to understand.
Patrick has a very dry sense of humor and is fond of satire. For those
that haven't read it The Onion is a satirical site (and a good
one)[*1]. When I first looked at the boycottsystemd site I thought it
was someone sending up the anti-system extremists -  then I realised
"they" were serious.

Patrick cried in his coffee when he realised boycottsystemd was *not*
a satire.  (is that less enigmatic for you?)

The response to the comments on it would be "whoosh".

[*1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion
http://www.theonion.com/
Example of the sort of The Onion article that makes it easy to
facepalm at boycottsystemd:-
*Girl Scouts To Sell Cookies Online*
Good. This should help some of the shyer girls become more comfortable
talking to strangers online.”

He seemed pretty non-enigmatic here to:-
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/interviews-28/interview-with-patrick-volkerding-of-slackware-949029/


>
Kind regards

--
"Just because somebody hears something you say, or reads something that you
write, doesn’t mean you’ve reached them. With reading comprehension being what
it is in the U. S., you can safely toss that one out the window. If you want to
judge by the listening habits of people who buy records, the first thing they do
is put it on and talk over it" ~ Frank Zappa


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Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie

2014-12-02 Thread The Wanderer

On 12/02/2014 at 07:23 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote:

> On 2 December 2014 at 18:05, Patrick Bartek 
> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote:

>>> Depends on what 'you' call "*default*". It implies a choice - as
>>> opposed to "*mandatory*".
>> 
>> You do have a choice, but ONLY after systemd is installed and the
>> system is running.
> 
> It will soon be possible to choose before installation. And always a
> reboot is

(I presume this was truncated somehow?)

Do you have a citation for this? The last I saw on that subject was when
Jonas Smedgaard CCed debian-devel on a post to bug #668001, in the
ensuing discussion of which Cyril Brulebois said that [1]

 I've already mentioned that having debootstrap stop pulling an
 init system might make sense at some point. In the meanwhile,
 debootstrap is not going to receive any patching in the
 dependency resolving area.

and that [2]

 the decision was made that no, it won't be touched for jessie

which sounds to me as if such a change is not going to happen "soon".

[1] 20141125173133.gk6...@mraw.org
[2] 20141125185048.gf3...@mraw.org

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

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Re: Creating a peculiar Live-CD

2014-12-02 Thread Richard Owlett


Scott Ferguson wrote:

On 30 November 2014 at 02:30, Richard Owlett  wrote:

Scott Ferguson wrote:


On 29 November 2014 at 08:17, Richard Owlett  wrote:


Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:



On 11/28/14, Richard Owlett  wrote:








 I've just proved ( again ;/ ) that my writing lacks clarity.



It's hard to describe a custom live CD in a single, small post.



Not really. I did it in a single sentence - see 3rd sentence down.


How you want to achieve something?? Not what (objectives) - which you
have expanded on in a subsequent reply to Curt. I'm still not clear on
"why".


Except for one, I don't think the why's are describable - too 
much intertwining of several years of personal projects. Why 
climb a mountain - "because it's there" may be the best answer.




This may be an xy problem - certainly based on the expanded objectives
placing a script in /etc/rc.local to do what you describe is not the
solution  - nor is placing it in init.

I believe Curt has the right idea - [snip]


Existence of kiosk CD's demonstrate what I want is doable.


[snip]




Network/Internet restriction policy.
If you have a LAN that these "users" will be connected to - the best
option IMO is to restrict browing at the access point using white
lists (or blacklists if you enjoy playing pop-a-mole).  Dans Guardian
(for squid) is ideal.
If that's not possible and you need to apply internet access control
at the local box level (LiveCD or HDD) the simplest approach for an
unskilled admin is to install either:-
;Parental Control GUI (which uses tinyproxy and Dans Guardian)
https://launchpad.net/webcontentcontrol/
;WebCleaner http://webcleaner.sourceforge.net/
;privoxy (it's in the Debian repository).



That looks promising.


Dependant on what you mean by "anything else"... find out where
"anything else" is triggered and remove the trigger.



Ugh ;/ That's "shutting the barn door...". Don't install door in first
place.


I have no idea what you are trying to say there. Could you expand on
that please.



E.G. I have one case where I want internet access via a serial 
modem only, therefore there will be no Ethernet nor WiFi drivers 
installed/installable (no apt/Synaptic/etc). Somewhat brute force 
but effective [rather significant side effects ;]




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Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie

2014-12-02 Thread Joel Rees

On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 9:23 PM, Scott Ferguson
 wrote:
> On 2 December 2014 at 18:05, Patrick Bartek  wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>>
>>> On 2 December 2014 at 08:18, Patrick Bartek 
>>> wrote:
>>> > On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>>> >>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> > > > as the default init more distros will follow suit,
>>>
>>> Very few do not include systemd. I'd welcome a definitive list of
>>> those that don't.
>>
>> As as option at install time or during an upgrade?  Don't know of any.
>
> That do not include systemd as a package.
>>
>> As far as I've read, I believe only Slackware absolutely refuses to use
>> systemd.  I don't even think it's in the repo.  I don't know if systemd
>> will even work with Slackware.
>
> Um, I've heard that said before - but I like to check my facts
> (especially when issues are emotive, *and* when outside parties may
> have an interest in creating dissension and disorder), so I've read
> Patrick's opinions[*1]. He's never said that (though I'd welcome an
> authoritive correction). Understandably cautious for someone who
> manages a huge workload almost single-handedly.
> He has said he intends to remain with the current init system - that
> he likes some of the abilities of systemd, and that "one day" he may
> move to systemd.[*1] Which is not close to "absolutely refuses to use
> systemd".
>
> [*1]:-
> http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/interviews-28/interview-with-patrick-volkerding-of-slackware-949029/

Let's quote a little bit more of that, just for completeness:

--
... Whether we end up using them or not remains to be seen. It's quite
possible that we won't end up having a choice in the matter depending
on how development that's out of our hands goes. It's hard to say
whether moving to these technologies would be a good thing for
Slackware overall. Concerning systemd, I do like the idea of a faster
boot time (obviously), but I also like controlling the startup of the
system with shell scripts that are readable, and I'm guessing that's
what most Slackware users prefer too. I don't spend all day rebooting
my machine, and having looked at systemd config files it seems to me a
very foreign way of controlling a system to me, and attempting to
control services, sockets, devices, mounts, etc., all within one
daemon flies in the face of the UNIX concept of doing one thing and
doing it well.

...
--

That, and some tweets that are more recent than this interview, leaves
me with a slightly different impression than neutral wait-and-see.

[...]

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Look first in your own heart,
and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well.


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Re: XDG Standard is not evil (was: Re: Why focus on systemd?)




Le 28.11.2014 15:32, Rusi Mody a écrit :

However there are some issues: if the software-versions in these
dont match up then its precisely these XDG files that tread on
each others'
toes across OSes.


Well... if configuration files are not both upward and downward 
compatible between different versions, which could be both major, minor, 
Ubuntuesque or googlesque (yes, I do think that Ubuntu and 
chrome/firefox version schemes are stupid) I do not see where is the 
problem.
After all, why, in the first time, do you need on the same computer 
different versions of the same software, if not for testing/development 
purposes? And in those purposes, you probably know how to change the 
default directory, right? On correct softwares, there is a command-line 
option for that, like -c, --config, or sometimes -C.


No issue for me here but...


One solution that Ive been toying with is as follows:
1. Have one real My-home partition
2. Keep /home as part of the OS-file system, so that
each OS can mess around with its own 'XDG's'

I wonder if people have tried this (or something similar) and
any downsides


Here, you know, you could be smarter. XDG directories are defined by 
environment variables. So, why not using, for example, in you .profile, 
something like this:



$cat ~/.profile

#!/bin/sh
case $( grep PRETTY_NAME /etc/os-release |cut -f2 -d'"' ) in
"Debian GNU/Linux jessie/sid")
XDG_FOOBAR_STUFF="~/.config/jessie"
*)
echo "hey, I have no idea what distro this is?"
esac


But, of course, it won't work with, for example, vim, bash, and plenty 
of softwares which... DO NOT respect XDG things. Oh, and I used 
/etc/os-release, which is not always present because... it's a part of 
XDG, AFAIK. But, you can do this by grepping/sedding in some mount on 
labels or whatever trick you want to identify the system on which you 
actually are.


This is clean, and efficient. Far better that what you could achieve 
*without* XDG.


Yes, I like xdg, between other reasons because it does not impose 
things: good softwares (for example, i3) allows the user to choose, if 
he want or not to use XDG.



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Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie




Le 02.12.2014 08:05, Patrick Bartek a écrit :


>> > and more and more
>> > developers will start writing apps with systemd, or parts of 
it,

>> > as a dependency for the "features" it offers.

It's their choice - likewise it's your choice *not* to write
alternatives. It 'sounds' like you're proposing a regime where those
that produce have their "freedom of choice" constrained by "users".
I struggle to find a rationale that makes that reasonable or likely 
to

do anything other than destroy, given that the "user" has a choice.


User's do contrain.  They even dictate.  Always have.  Developers
should, if they are samrt, be developing what customers want or need.
Not the other way around. That's the formula for going out of 
business.
Listening to your customers as well as your potential customers is 
just

good business.


Really?
Tss...
How many projects have you, as a user, constrained to do something? 
Being commercial or not...


You may had some success in commercial softwares, because of contracts, 
but for small projects, or projects were the developpers are not paid, 
when they only contribute because they wan't to use it, but without 
having to suffer some bug or another, or with a feature they would like 
to have, I sincerely doubt you had constrained anyone.


Honestly... if you want to constrain people on their spare time, if you 
want to remove us the last part of fun we can have in programming, 
then... well, people wont listen you, to stay polite. And it's normal.


Open source developpers are not all paid for what they do. Only a 
minority is, and in this minority, I am not sure that the bigger part 
actually live from open source softwares.
Of course, programming is just one of the various possible 
contributions to a project. But, most open source project starts by pure 
code and/or software engineering steps (most, because not games, for 
example, and there are probably some other around), and by that first 
base of code might, or might not, have contributions on other subjects 
(which are important too, I do not deny that. Even knowing that someone 
tried what you did may be a contribution which helps to continue 
working).
But, maybe you know about a project which started by bug reports or 
translations on an empty codebase?
Not a game, of course, that kind of projects definitely needs lots of 
very various skills. It may be why there are not a lot of pure FOSS 
games of high quality (I mean, there are many of them, but I feel like 
the ratio, when compared to other softwares, is by far lower that the 
same ratio in closed source world. Oh, and I mean graphical games, of 
course, not ascii ones): it does need by far more different skills than 
to build, say, a text editor.


Oh. And, you forgot something. FOSS developpers are the users of their 
work, unlike in commercial softwares. And it changes *a lot* of things, 
if not everything.



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Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie

2014-12-02 Thread Joel Rees

On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 9:04 PM, Laurent Bigonville  wrote:
> Le Mon, 1 Dec 2014 23:05:09 -0800,
> Patrick Bartek  a écrit :
>
>> On Tue, 02 Dec 2014, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>>
>> > On 2 December 2014 at 08:18, Patrick Bartek 
>> > wrote:
>> > > On Mon, 01 Dec 2014, Ric Moore wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> On 11/30/2014 11:27 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>> > >>
>> > [snip]
>> >
>> > > > > as the
>> > >> > default init more distros will follow suit,
>> >
>> > Very few do not include systemd. I'd welcome a definitive list of
>> > those that don't.
>>
>> As as option at install time or during an upgrade?  Don't know of any.
>>
>> As far as I've read, I believe only Slackware absolutely refuses to
>> use systemd.  I don't even think it's in the repo.  I don't know if
>> systemd will even work with Slackware.
>
>
> Well according to the following wikipedia page, Patrick Volkerding
> (Slackware founder) has not completely ruled you systemd:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#Adoption

Hmm. So I do a web search on "Patrick Volkerding systemd" and find
he's tweeted twice about systemd in the last four tweets. One was a
bit of an enigmatic tweet about crying into his coffee when he read
boycottsystemd.org and realized he wasn't reading the Onion.

https://twitter.com/volkerdi/status/460102616991547393

The other was a re-tweet from Kiki Novak.

https://twitter.com/kikinovak/status/535861951642210304

FWIW

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Look first in your own heart,
and ask yourself if you are not your own worst enemy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well.


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Re: bind9 needs sometimes a restart after resume from suspend

2014-12-02 Thread Karl E. Jorgensen

Hi

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 03:26:29PM +0100, Rainer Dorsch wrote:
> On Sunday 30 November 2014 11:59:16 Karl E. Jorgensen wrote:
> > Hi
> > 
> > On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 12:26:36PM +0100, Rainer Dorsch wrote:
> > > Hi Pascal,
> > > 
> > > On Sunday 30 November 2014 11:15:41 Pascal Hambourg wrote:
> > > > Hello,
> > > > 
> > > > Rainer Dorsch a écrit :
> > > > > I run bind9 locally and noticed that bind9 sometimes needs a restart
> > > > > after
> > > > > suspend.
> > > > 
> > > > Why ? Not running, not resolving, errors... ?
> > > 
> > > bind9 does not respond.
> > > 
> > > See e.g. the dig command from my previous post
> > > 
> > > blackbox:~# dig heise.de
> > > ^Cblackbox:~#
> > 
> > That was well hidden :-)
> > 
> > Any related messages in /var/log/daemon.log ?
> 
> Indeed there are a number of entries in there, these are the entries right 
> after restart:
> 
> Nov 30 10:10:49 blackbox named[24198]: clients-per-query decreased to 12
> Nov 30 10:10:50 blackbox console-kit-daemon[2055]: WARNING: Error waiting for 
> native console 56 activation: Resource temporarily unavailable 
> Nov 30 10:10:50 blackbox named[24198]: validating @0xb3f5c0d0: . NS: got 
> insecure response; parent indicates it should be secure
> Nov 30 10:10:50 blackbox named[24198]: error (insecurity proof failed) 
> resolving './NS/IN': 192.168.178.1#53
> Nov 30 10:10:50 blackbox named[24198]: error (network unreachable) resolving 
> './NS/IN': 2001:503:c27::2:30#53
> Nov 30 10:10:50 blackbox named[24198]: managed-keys-zone: No DNSKEY RRSIGs 
> found for '.': success
> Nov 30 10:10:50 blackbox named[24198]: validating @0xb3a00018: . NS: no valid 
> signature found
[snipped more of the same]

These messages dont look abnormal - in fact they seem to indicate
proper operation.

> 
> But after restart when bind9 is working, I still see similar entries:
> 
> Nov 30 15:19:40 blackbox named[2322]: validating @0xb4072230: . NS: got 
> insecure response; parent indicates it should be secure
> Nov 30 15:19:40 blackbox named[2322]: error (insecurity proof failed) 
> resolving './NS/IN': 192.168.178.1#53
[similar messages snipped]

Going back to your original symptom: "bind not responding"... It looks
like bind is at least *alive*.

I wonder... What exactly does "bind not responding" mean? any command
that reproduces that would be handy.

As this is happening in relation to suspend/resume, this would imply
that network interfaces go down and up too. So perhaps bind is failing
to detect the re-arrival of network interfaces?

The output of a command like "sudo netstat -nlp | grep bind" while
bind is not responding would be instructive. And then compare/contrast
with the scenario of a "working" bind...

Hope this helps 
-- 
Karl E. Jorgensen


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Re: Creating a peculiar Live-CD

2014-12-02 Thread Richard Owlett


Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Sb, 29 nov 14, 16:46:01, Richard Owlett wrote:


Application 2:
Extremely secure browsing and email for me on my personal machine.


https://tails.boum.org/



I wasn't thinking in terms of personal privacy, but what I think 
of as "system security".


My *personal idiosyncratic* views of "system security" include 
(but not limited to):
  1. preventing others on the network executing code on my 
machine and/or
 reading/writing writing my files. Good iptables probably 
adequate.
  2. Explicit control of when or if a program may access the 
network - functionality
 similar to COMODO for Windows machines. I've heard augments 
that such are

 unnecessary, BUT it is a *SPECIFICATION* of my goal.


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Re: Replacing systemd in Jessie