Re: UEFI beginner questions

[Felix Miata]

tuulen composed on 2019-06-07 22:46 (UTC-0400):

> Any computer model suggestions? 

"Model" has a peculiar mix of meanings among PC manufacturers and users. The 
major
brands seem to like confusing users by providing multiple submodels of the same
model and calling the submodels models. The submodels number in the thousands.

So, along the same line as David Christensen's response, I suggest any x86
compatible PC capable of supporting at least 4GB of RAM, and which was designed 
at
least one year before release of the Debian version you intend to use should be
adequate to task. I find the motherboard chipset and the gfxchip tend to be far
more important than the brand of CPU or manufacturer. Make sure your PC has a
chipset from AMD or Intel, and a gfxchip from Intel, AMD/ATI or NVidia, and you
should be good. NVidia gfxchips tend to be capable of better performance at cost
of being more finicky. DDX drivers for its hardware are made primarily by 
reverse
engineering. If you wish to stick with FOSS from Debian, avoiding proprietary
software from NVidia, then best to stick with AMD/ATI or Intel for video.

I use mostly Intel CPUs. Those I have that are not are 12 or more years old. 
GPUs
I use are mostly from all three major brands. Drivers for others apparently 
don't
get much developer testing, so if available at all, tend to be less reliable
and/or flexible for use with modern widescreen displays.

UEFI BIOS are somewhat like people - each seems to be unique, and some are
friendlier than others. The older ones were less mature, so tend to be more
aggravating than more recent ones. I own 3 motherboards with UEFI BIOS. Only on 
my
two newer ones (2-3 years old) do I use UEFI. On the first, I simply wasn't 
ready
to tackle learning the new stuff.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: UEFI beginner questions

[David Christensen]

On 6/7/19 7:46 PM, tuulen wrote:

Hi,
I am an ordinary GUI and mouse computer user, not a command line user.  But
I want to get away from both Apple and Microsoft.  I spent a lot of time
looking into Linux, Unix, BSD, and eventually I discovered Debian.  And
because I like to know the details of what I am doing I also discovered
that I just naturally like Debian, too, as Debian is built upon
explanations, fine with me!


What "explanations" you are referring to?


I often find FOSS online documents to be outdated, incomplete, and 
inaccurate.  And, there is a huge pile of conflicting information called 
the WWW...



Back in the day, there was:

https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Bach-Design-of-the-UNIX-Operating-System/PGM81513.html


FreeBSD has a current equivalent:

https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Mc-Kusick-Design-and-Implementation-of-the-Free-BSD-Operating-System-The-2nd-Edition/PGM224032.html


A current "hands-on" book that includes coverage for Debian is:

https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Nemeth-UNIX-and-Linux-System-Administration-Handbook-5th-Edition/PGM143215.html


Lucas writes excellent "hands-on" books for BSD and other Unix topics:

https://mwl.io/nonfiction/os

https://mwl.io/nonfiction/networking

https://mwl.io/nonfiction/tools



I was in the process of partitioning my hard drive to install Debian when I
encountered a couple of UEFI complications.  My HP Laptop with Windows 10
does not offer a way to disable the "secure boot" feature of UEFI, so that
makes Debian off limits.  Then I went to the HP website but almost all of
the available HP desktops and laptops have Windows 10, with presumably the
same useless UEFI that I now have, and I did not see any Linux-compatible
HP computers as available.  I am aware that there are other computer makers
and manufacturers but I am wondering what computers the Debian community
prefers. 


Typically, whatever people already own.


Determining if a given make and model of computer is fully supported by 
Debian from specifications, surfing the WWW, etc., is tough.  If a 
physical specimen is available, one option is to try a Debian Live CD or 
USB flash drive.



If you buy a commercial product that comes with Debian pre-installed, it 
should work:


https://www.debian.org/distrib/pre-installed



Fortunately my needs are small bandwidth-wise, no gaming, no
movies, nothing bigger than an occasional news clip or YouTube clip, so I
do not need a big, powerful computer. 


My oldest running machines have Intel 2+ GHz dual-core 64-bit processors 
and 945G chipsets, and are comfortable with video up to 720x480, maybe 
720p.  I use my Intel i7-2600S/ Q67 machine for 1080p.




I can continue to use Apple and
Microsoft computers for ordinary day-to-day uses but there are some uses,
like banking and financial matters including credit card use, etc., 


My retired Pentium 4 machines with 32-bit Debian, Xfce, and Firefox 
could do that.  I recycled my Pentium III and older machines because of 
RAM limitations.




for
which I would very much appreciate a more secure computer and for different
reasons I have come to distrust both Apple and Microsoft. 


I believe desktop security is primarily determined by user behavior. 
Exploits exist for Windows, macOS, and GNU/Linux, and the many common 
applications that run on those platforms.  An ignorant or reckless user 
will be quickly "pwn3d" no matter what computer they use.




OK, so there is
a steep learning curve to using Debian, but I think I can handle learning
how to do what I need to do. 


I suggest starting with this book:

http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596002619.do



Any computer model suggestions?


Install Debian Stable (Stretch) into a 64-bit virtual machine on your 
Windows 10 laptop.



Get the debian-9.9.0-amd64-xfce-CD-1.iso download:

https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/


I have used VirtualBox on Windows, macOS, and Debian:

https://www.virtualbox.org/


Some editions of Windows 10 will run Hyper-V on supported platforms:

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/virtualization/hyper-v/hyper-v-technology-overview

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/virtualization/hyper-v-on-windows/quick-start/enable-hyper-v


If you want real hardware, most of us started with used desktop 
computers.  In this case, older is often better (3+ years or older), as 
the newest hardware often is not supported by Debian Stable.  You will 
want to write your ISO to a USB flash drive:


https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch04s03.html.en#usb-copy-isohybrid

https://sourceforge.net/projects/win32diskimager/



Thanks!  Best regards, Doug


Enjoy!

David

Re: UEFI beginner questions

[deloptes]

tuulen wrote:

> Hi,
> I am an ordinary GUI and mouse computer user, not a command line user. 
> But I want to get away from both Apple and Microsoft.  I spent a lot of
> time looking into Linux, Unix, BSD, and eventually I discovered Debian. 
> And because I like to know the details of what I am doing I also
> discovered that I just naturally like Debian, too, as Debian is built upon
> explanations, fine with me!
> 

Welcome to the community! I really hope you will enjoy it. I came across
Debian in 2002 and also fell in love with it.

> I was in the process of partitioning my hard drive to install Debian when
> I encountered a couple of UEFI complications.  My HP Laptop with Windows
> 10 does not offer a way to disable the "secure boot" feature of UEFI, so
> that makes Debian off limits.  Then I went to the HP website but almost
> all of the available HP desktops and laptops have Windows 10, with
> presumably the same useless UEFI that I now have, and I did not see any
> Linux-compatible HP computers as available.  I am aware that there are
> other computer makers and manufacturers but I am wondering what computers
> the Debian community prefers.  Fortunately my needs are small
> bandwidth-wise, no gaming, no movies, nothing bigger than an occasional
> news clip or YouTube clip, so I do not need a big, powerful computer.  I
> can continue to use Apple and Microsoft computers for ordinary day-to-day
> uses but there are some uses, like banking and financial matters including
> credit card use, etc., for which I would very much appreciate a more
> secure computer and for different reasons I have come to distrust both
> Apple and Microsoft.  OK, so there is a steep learning curve to using
> Debian, but I think I can handle learning how to do what I need to do. 
> Any computer model suggestions? Thanks!  Best regards, Doug

I have two HP notebooks one with Win7 and one with Win10. I am not sure
about the Win10, if I booted Debian on it, but I think yes. Most of them
support LEGACY BOOT - this will automatically disable the secure boot. If
your does not it will be interesting to know what model you have (as David
mentioned).

As of machine recommendations: https://wiki.debian.org/Hardware
I've been using the business class notebooks and desktops from Dell, Fujitsu
and HP, also some industrial boards and last but not least the legendary
Nokia N9.

Next thing would be to choose the proper Desktop I guess :)

regards

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[deloptes]

Gene Heskett wrote:

> BOOT_IMAGE=/vmlinuz-4.9.0-9-rt-amd64
> root=UUID=0e698024-1cf3-4dbc-812d-10552c01caab ro

Gene,
I can barely follow your problems with Stretch. I am just amazed how this
could be that hard. I was wondering if you possibly copied configurations
from your jessie, or is it related to the linuxcnc distro.

Last time I had massive issues was at the time of woody-sarge-edge.

regards

Re: UEFI beginner questions

[David]

On Sat, 8 Jun 2019 at 13:03, tuulen  wrote:
>
> My HP Laptop with Windows 10 does not offer a way to disable the "secure 
> boot" feature of UEFI

Hi, more information from you might produce more useful replies :)

If you state the specific model of your laptop and BIOS version, it
would create a possibility that someone could assist you further to
install Debian.

And what is your goal for that laptop? Do you hope for a boot-manager
that allows you to boot either Windows 10 or Debian off different
partitions on the same hard disk drive? Or something different? Do you
need secure boot? Do you need UEFI boot? What options does the BIOS
offer?

Re: UEFI beginner questions

[Peter Ehlert]

HP works, I have 5 HP machines at this time, all running Debian.
"secure boot" does not exist on any of them.
I do Not use UEFI, only Legacy Boot.
Never figured it out or saw an urgent need to use it.
BIOS/UEFI menus are all different, even on similar models and makes.

there are a number of articles on UEFI and boot loaders in the Debian Wiki.

On 6/7/19 7:46 PM, tuulen wrote:

Hi,
I am an ordinary GUI and mouse computer user, not a command line 
user.  But I want to get away from both Apple and Microsoft.  I spent 
a lot of time looking into Linux, Unix, BSD, and eventually I 
discovered Debian.  And because I like to know the details of what I 
am doing I also discovered that I just naturally like Debian, too, as 
Debian is built upon explanations, fine with me!


I was in the process of partitioning my hard drive to install Debian 
when I encountered a couple of UEFI complications.  My HP Laptop with 
Windows 10 does not offer a way to disable the "secure boot" feature 
of UEFI, so that makes Debian off limits.  Then I went to the HP 
website but almost all of the available HP desktops and laptops have 
Windows 10, with presumably the same useless UEFI that I now have, and 
I did not see any Linux-compatible HP computers as available.  I am 
aware that there are other computer makers and manufacturers but I am 
wondering what computers the Debian community prefers.  Fortunately my 
needs are small bandwidth-wise, no gaming, no movies, nothing bigger 
than an occasional news clip or YouTube clip, so I do not need a big, 
powerful computer.  I can continue to use Apple and Microsoft 
computers for ordinary day-to-day uses but there are some uses, like 
banking and financial matters including credit card use, etc., for 
which I would very much appreciate a more secure computer and for 
different reasons I have come to distrust both Apple and Microsoft.  
OK, so there is a steep learning curve to using Debian, but I think I 
can handle learning how to do what I need to do. Any computer model 
suggestions?

Thanks!  Best regards, Doug

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 07 June 2019 10:00:48 pm Michael Stone wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 09:31:42PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >On Friday 07 June 2019 11:58:47 am Michael Stone wrote:
> >> On Wed, Jun 05, 2019 at 10:04:09PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >> >grepping thru  /etc does not seem to find any hits, so I've no
> >> > clue whats starting it.
> >>
> >> Did you happen to tell the kernel that ttyS0 was a console? (cat
> >> /proc/cmdline)
> >
> >No, TBT it never crossed my mind.
>
> So if you cat /proc/cmdline there's nothing about console= there?
BOOT_IMAGE=/vmlinuz-4.9.0-9-rt-amd64 
root=UUID=0e698024-1cf3-4dbc-812d-10552c01caab ro

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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UEFI beginner questions

[tuulen]

Hi,
I am an ordinary GUI and mouse computer user, not a command line user.  But
I want to get away from both Apple and Microsoft.  I spent a lot of time
looking into Linux, Unix, BSD, and eventually I discovered Debian.  And
because I like to know the details of what I am doing I also discovered
that I just naturally like Debian, too, as Debian is built upon
explanations, fine with me!

I was in the process of partitioning my hard drive to install Debian when I
encountered a couple of UEFI complications.  My HP Laptop with Windows 10
does not offer a way to disable the "secure boot" feature of UEFI, so that
makes Debian off limits.  Then I went to the HP website but almost all of
the available HP desktops and laptops have Windows 10, with presumably the
same useless UEFI that I now have, and I did not see any Linux-compatible
HP computers as available.  I am aware that there are other computer makers
and manufacturers but I am wondering what computers the Debian community
prefers.  Fortunately my needs are small bandwidth-wise, no gaming, no
movies, nothing bigger than an occasional news clip or YouTube clip, so I
do not need a big, powerful computer.  I can continue to use Apple and
Microsoft computers for ordinary day-to-day uses but there are some uses,
like banking and financial matters including credit card use, etc., for
which I would very much appreciate a more secure computer and for different
reasons I have come to distrust both Apple and Microsoft.  OK, so there is
a steep learning curve to using Debian, but I think I can handle learning
how to do what I need to do.  Any computer model suggestions?
Thanks!  Best regards, Doug

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[Michael Stone]

On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 09:31:42PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Friday 07 June 2019 11:58:47 am Michael Stone wrote:


On Wed, Jun 05, 2019 at 10:04:09PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>grepping thru  /etc does not seem to find any hits, so I've no clue
> whats starting it.

Did you happen to tell the kernel that ttyS0 was a console? (cat
/proc/cmdline)

No, TBT it never crossed my mind.


So if you cat /proc/cmdline there's nothing about console= there?

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 07 June 2019 03:28:57 pm Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 11:48:17AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >Neither can I and this "service" is not a familiar term since this is
> > my first expedition into systemd territory.
>
> Try the systemd.service manual page to find out more.
>
> >Drivewire was written in Java, and changes in Java from wheezy to
> > stretch have killed that, but a replacement is being written in
> > python in hopes it might be a more stable language. We as a group,
> > had no clue that Java would be changed to be so damned incompatible
> > with itself.
>
> This is quite an aside, but I was interested in this problem. Wheezy
> was released in 2013, and Stretch in 2017, 4 years later. I'm finding
> it hard to answer what version of Java was in Wheezy, due to its age,
> but I think it's OpenJDK 7.  Stretch has OpenJDK 8, one major version
> further on. There are no doubt compatibility problems between 7 and 8,
> but relatively few (and certainly a lot fewer than 8 → 11).
>
> Java's compatibility story is — relative to most comparable languages
> — very good. I regularly run a Java program originally written 20
> years ago. If you're going with Python make sure you start with Python
> 3, not 2.
>
> >I can likely go with the flow as long as its documented in readily
> >accessable form, something that L.P. is good at, he writes nice
> > "papers" on his stuff but hides that info from the unwashed by not
> > putting out decent man-pages.
>
> I'm surprised you think that, because I find the systemd man-pages to
> be excellent. Have you read them or is this hearsay?
>
But first you need to know the name of the man page. You can't read it if 
you don't know its true name...

> > I disagree loudly about that but the exclusion of
> >examples from manpages seems like an insidious attack on the users
> >intelligence.
>
> …I'd guess hearsay because they have plenty of examples. A quick check
> shows EXAMPLES sections in at least systemd.unit(5) and
> systemd.target(5).

That's a sample of two, how many manpages has systemd spawned by now?

> >I give you the present state of the docs for ip as an
> >example of how NOT to do a man page.
>
> Much like the tool, I find it terrible. And not comparable to
> systemd's man-pages at all. I quite look forward to whatever replaces
> "ip" (sooner rather than later)

it can't happen fast enough for me, as theres a possibility I might not 
last long enough to see it.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 07 June 2019 03:25:53 pm Nicholas Geovanis wrote:

> You know Gene, I used to take the vacuum tubes to Walgreens to test
> them in the tube-tester right by the front door ;-)
> Gene OM, Google the Crystal Set Society  ;-)

I had one of those when I was about 10yo.

Worked fairly well if the antenna was long enough.

> Peace out, 73 de Nick
>
> On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Friday 07 June 2019 06:24:00 am Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 01:23:45AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > >Not getting anyplace so far, but the reboot has given me only one
> > > > agetty running on tty1, which looks like exactly
> > > >what /etc/systemd/system/getty.target.wants/getty@tty1.service
> > > >wants.  It also says as a comment:
> > >
> > > I don't think getty.target is relevant to you unless you are
> > > asking systemd to set your system up to that target: the default
> > > target is graphical.target, and the other one you are likely to
> > > use is multi-user.target. If you haven't knowingly changed your
> > > system's default target, it will be graphical.target.
> > >
> > > If you don't know what a systemd target is, then you likely
> > > haven't changed your system to use one other than the default.
> > > (You can learn more about systemd targets in the manpage
> > > systemd.target. They're vaguely analogous to sysvinit runlevels).
> > >
> > > >root@coyote:getty.target.wants$ locate serial-getty@.service
> > > >/lib/systemd/system/serial-getty@.service
> > >
> > > That's the "serial getty generator service". It's not a concrete
> > > service per se, more a template from which concrete services will
> > > derive. A concrete
> > >
> > > example would be serial-getty@ttyS0.service. On my system:
> > > > ▶ systemctl status serial-getty@ttyS0.service
> > > > ● serial-getty@ttyS0.service - Serial Getty on ttyS0
> > > >Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/serial-getty@.service;
> > > > disabled; vendor preset: enabled) Active: inactive (dead)
> > > >  Docs: man:agetty(8)
> > > >man:systemd-getty-generator(8)
> > > >http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/serial-console.html
> > >
> > > So my system has a service defined for a getty on ttyS0 but it is
> > > both disabled and not running. What I would have suggested to you,
> > > if you still had your machine in the state where the getty was
> > > running, would be to try "systemctl status
> > > serial-getty@ttyS0.service" and see what the result was. If it
> > > were running, "systemctl stop
> > > serial-getty@ttyS0.service" would stop it, and "systemctl disable
> > > serial-getty@ttyS0.service" would disable it from starting
> > > automatically again (if it were configured to do so).
> > >
> > > >But wouldn't a link to that have to exist in this /etc/systemd
> > > > tree?
> > >
> > > No. Systemd reads the contents of /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd;
> > > the latter overrides the former, if it specifies units with the
> > > same name. This is so that the package manager can freely update
> > > and overwrite units supplied in packages (to /lib/systemd),
> > > without interfering with any manual configuration that you have
> > > performed as a user (in /etc/systemd).
> > >
> > > >So what sort of a precondition that didn't happen on this reboot,
> > > > would trigger this above file to grab and lockup /dev/ttyS0 like
> > > > it did on the last reboot.
> > >
> > > If you caused a service to be started that expressed a dependency
> > > upon serial-getty@ttyS0.service (or getty@ttyS0.service, that's
> > > also possible although unlikely and not useful) then that would be
> > > one explanation. I am not aware of any such service, and cannot
> > > find one on my system at least.
> >
> > Neither can I and this "service" is not a familiar term since this
> > is my first expedition into systemd territory.
> >
> > And its and intermittent only service. I am the author of several
> > handy utilities for that old Unix-like os on a box with a 16 bit
> > address buss, and there are still a good 1000 users of it on this
> > ball of rock & water. 2 services actually, one is called drivewire,
> > and makes use if the machines bit banger port at 115kbaud, and this
> > terminal function that minicom is doing against a hardware serial
> > port on that machine. 2 independent services.
> >
> > Drivewire was written in Java, and changes in Java from wheezy to
> > stretch have killed that, but a replacement is being written in
> > python in hopes it might be a more stable language. We as a group,
> > had no clue that Java would be changed to be so damned incompatible
> > with itself. So I'm playing canary in a coal mine testing the python
> > version. For a machine that was new in the early 80's, I am amazed
> > at the new blood it has attracted in the last 2 or 3 years. Mailing
> > list sub count has nearly doubled in the last 4 years.  And with
> > that new blood has come quite a list of of newly designed hardwar

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 07 June 2019 03:21:52 pm Nicholas Geovanis wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 5:24 AM Jonathan Dowland  
wrote:
> > You are free to switch back to sysvinit if you wish. To do so you
> > need to install sysvinit-core (and remove systemd-sysv, which will
> > likely be removed
> > by the action of installing sysvinit-core). This will change your
> > init system
> > to sysvinit, although it would not remove all of systemd, and some
> > parts of it are likely depended upon by other stuff on your system.
>
> I just learned earlier today of systemd-nspawn as a possible
> containerization solution (my mind boggles).
> Do you know if removing systemd-sysv would undercut nspawn?
> Have you tried nspawn for that containerization? Any strong views?
>
No, again that has never been "on the table", never heard of it until you 
mentioned it.

> > ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> > ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
> > ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
> > ⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 07 June 2019 11:58:47 am Michael Stone wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 05, 2019 at 10:04:09PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >grepping thru  /etc does not seem to find any hits, so I've no clue
> > whats starting it.
>
> Did you happen to tell the kernel that ttyS0 was a console? (cat
> /proc/cmdline)
No, TBT it never crossed my mind.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: USB digital microscope from Walmart

[Mike McClain]

Thank you Mr. Weber.
I installed guvcview and now can see the scope's output.
Much obliged,
Mike

On Wed, Jun 05, 2019 at 05:04:53PM -0400, Bob Weber wrote:
> On 6/5/19 3:09 PM, Mike McClain wrote:
> 
> I Have something that may be similar.?? Its Jiusion Digital
> Microscope.?? It works with the viewer guvcview.?? Its in Debian so
> it should be safe.?? I had to plug it in several times to get the
> kernel to recognize it ... use lsusb.?? First run lsusb then plug it
> in and see if there is any difference.?? Mine just showed up as Bus
> 001 Device 015: ID a16f:0304 with no name.?? Yoursd will be
> different so just look for the change.
>
> I got the idea from Kris Occhipinti.?? Link:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxUPCV3gbqw is where he runs the
> microscope with cheese.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> --
>
>
> *...Bob*

--
Toward a happier life, always hang up immediately you've found
you've been called by a machine. - MM

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[rhkramer]

On Friday, June 07, 2019 03:28:57 PM Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> This is quite an aside, but I was interested in this problem. Wheezy was
> released in 2013, and Stretch in 2017, 4 years later. I'm finding it hard
> to answer what version of Java was in Wheezy, due to its age, but I think
> it's OpenJDK 7.  Stretch has OpenJDK 8, one major version further on.
> There are no doubt compatibility problems between 7 and 8, but relatively
> few (and certainly a lot fewer than 8 → 11).

From my Wheezy system (if you can interpret the response):

rhk@s19:~/.kde$ java -showversion
java version "1.6.0_38"
OpenJDK Runtime Environment (IcedTea6 1.13.10) (6b38-1.13.10-1~deb7u1)
OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 23.25-b01, mixed mode)
...


Ok, I guess that would be OpenJDK 6

systemd-nspawn (was Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?)

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 02:21:52PM -0500, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:

I just learned earlier today of systemd-nspawn as a possible
containerization solution (my mind boggles).


Yes. Systemd's main job is to spawn sub-processes. A container is 
a process run under various constraints. From what I understand nspawn

adds some additional features, but many of the isolation features are
already present in systemd, without nspawn.


Do you know if removing systemd-sysv would undercut nspawn?


I suspect it would not work at all if you were not running systemd as
the init system.


Have you tried nspawn for that containerization? Any strong views?


I haven't tried it at all myself yet. I think it looks like a useful tool and
less invasive than e.g. Docker. You can get many of the isolation features of
containers with systemd's features already, without nspawn. See:

   http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/security.html

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 08:28:57PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> I'm finding it hard to
> answer what version of Java was in Wheezy, due to its age, but I think it's
> OpenJDK 7.

apt-cache search on a wheezy box shows both 6 and 7.

Re: install debian cann't detect hard disk

[Jacques Toerien]

> On 7 Jun 2019, at 18:31, lina  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have tried different version of debian and even ubuntu on latest macbook 
> pro.
> 
> I did the partition exactly follow very carefully based on the online
> documents but it still failed to detect the hard disk during
> installation.  Besides that I even can't run the live version. any
> suggestions will be highly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks very much, lina
> 

Hi Lina,

There are unfortunately lots of ongoing challenges with the 2018 Macbook Pro 
machines. You can follow a log here to see where the project is at as of 25 
days ago. The main issue seems to be the T2 security chip will not allow access 
to the nvme drive, even if you diable Secure Boot in the Recovery Menu. 
Together with the drive issue, Wifi and sound don’t work either. 

You cold try the very latest Arch Linux ISO as it’s got the very latest driver 
updates going with a new kernel as well.

https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux/issues/71


Jacques

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[Nicholas Geovanis]

https://www.midnightscience.net/

On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 2:25 PM Nicholas Geovanis 
wrote:

> You know Gene, I used to take the vacuum tubes to Walgreens to test them
> in the tube-tester right by the front door ;-)
> Gene OM, Google the Crystal Set Society  ;-)
> Peace out, 73 de Nick
>
> On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
>> On Friday 07 June 2019 06:24:00 am Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>>
>> > On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 01:23:45AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> > >Not getting anyplace so far, but the reboot has given me only one
>> > > agetty running on tty1, which looks like exactly
>> > >what /etc/systemd/system/getty.target.wants/getty@tty1.service
>> > >wants.  It also says as a comment:
>> >
>> > I don't think getty.target is relevant to you unless you are asking
>> > systemd to set your system up to that target: the default target is
>> > graphical.target, and the other one you are likely to use is
>> > multi-user.target. If you haven't knowingly changed your system's
>> > default target, it will be graphical.target.
>> >
>> > If you don't know what a systemd target is, then you likely haven't
>> > changed your system to use one other than the default. (You can learn
>> > more about systemd targets in the manpage systemd.target. They're
>> > vaguely analogous to sysvinit runlevels).
>> >
>> > >root@coyote:getty.target.wants$ locate serial-getty@.service
>> > >/lib/systemd/system/serial-getty@.service
>> >
>> > That's the "serial getty generator service". It's not a concrete
>> > service per se, more a template from which concrete services will
>> > derive. A concrete
>> >
>> > example would be serial-getty@ttyS0.service. On my system:
>> > > ▶ systemctl status serial-getty@ttyS0.service
>> > > ● serial-getty@ttyS0.service - Serial Getty on ttyS0
>> > >Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/serial-getty@.service;
>> > > disabled; vendor preset: enabled) Active: inactive (dead)
>> > >  Docs: man:agetty(8)
>> > >man:systemd-getty-generator(8)
>> > >http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/serial-console.html
>> >
>> > So my system has a service defined for a getty on ttyS0 but it is both
>> > disabled and not running. What I would have suggested to you, if you
>> > still had your machine in the state where the getty was running, would
>> > be to try "systemctl status serial-getty@ttyS0.service" and see what
>> > the result was. If it were running, "systemctl stop
>> > serial-getty@ttyS0.service" would stop it, and "systemctl disable
>> > serial-getty@ttyS0.service" would disable it from starting
>> > automatically again (if it were configured to do so).
>> >
>> > >But wouldn't a link to that have to exist in this /etc/systemd tree?
>> >
>> > No. Systemd reads the contents of /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd; the
>> > latter overrides the former, if it specifies units with the same name.
>> > This is so that the package manager can freely update and overwrite
>> > units supplied in packages (to /lib/systemd), without interfering with
>> > any manual configuration that you have performed as a user (in
>> > /etc/systemd).
>> >
>> > >So what sort of a precondition that didn't happen on this reboot,
>> > > would trigger this above file to grab and lockup /dev/ttyS0 like it
>> > > did on the last reboot.
>> >
>> > If you caused a service to be started that expressed a dependency upon
>> > serial-getty@ttyS0.service (or getty@ttyS0.service, that's also
>> > possible although unlikely and not useful) then that would be one
>> > explanation. I am not aware of any such service, and cannot find one
>> > on my system at least.
>> >
>> Neither can I and this "service" is not a familiar term since this is my
>> first expedition into systemd territory.
>>
>> And its and intermittent only service. I am the author of several handy
>> utilities for that old Unix-like os on a box with a 16 bit address buss,
>> and there are still a good 1000 users of it on this ball of rock &
>> water. 2 services actually, one is called drivewire, and makes use if
>> the machines bit banger port at 115kbaud, and this terminal function
>> that minicom is doing against a hardware serial port on that machine. 2
>> independent services.
>>
>> Drivewire was written in Java, and changes in Java from wheezy to stretch
>> have killed that, but a replacement is being written in python in hopes
>> it might be a more stable language. We as a group, had no clue that Java
>> would be changed to be so damned incompatible with itself. So I'm
>> playing canary in a coal mine testing the python version. For a machine
>> that was new in the early 80's, I am amazed at the new blood it has
>> attracted in the last 2 or 3 years. Mailing list sub count has nearly
>> doubled in the last 4 years.  And with that new blood has come quite a
>> list of of newly designed hardware accessories for it.  Sure, its being
>> built on kitchen tables in runs of 10 or 20, but its happening 35 years
>> later. That in itself is amazing. And 

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 11:48:17AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

Neither can I and this "service" is not a familiar term since this is my
first expedition into systemd territory.


Try the systemd.service manual page to find out more.


Drivewire was written in Java, and changes in Java from wheezy to stretch
have killed that, but a replacement is being written in python in hopes
it might be a more stable language. We as a group, had no clue that Java
would be changed to be so damned incompatible with itself.


This is quite an aside, but I was interested in this problem. Wheezy was
released in 2013, and Stretch in 2017, 4 years later. I'm finding it hard to
answer what version of Java was in Wheezy, due to its age, but I think it's
OpenJDK 7.  Stretch has OpenJDK 8, one major version further on. There are no
doubt compatibility problems between 7 and 8, but relatively few (and certainly
a lot fewer than 8 → 11).

Java's compatibility story is — relative to most comparable languages — very
good. I regularly run a Java program originally written 20 years ago. If you're
going with Python make sure you start with Python 3, not 2.


I can likely go with the flow as long as its documented in readily
accessable form, something that L.P. is good at, he writes nice "papers"
on his stuff but hides that info from the unwashed by not putting out
decent man-pages.


I'm surprised you think that, because I find the systemd man-pages to
be excellent. Have you read them or is this hearsay?


I disagree loudly about that but the exclusion of
examples from manpages seems like an insidious attack on the users
intelligence.


…I'd guess hearsay because they have plenty of examples. A quick check shows
EXAMPLES sections in at least systemd.unit(5) and systemd.target(5).


I give you the present state of the docs for ip as an
example of how NOT to do a man page.


Much like the tool, I find it terrible. And not comparable to systemd's
man-pages at all. I quite look forward to whatever replaces "ip" (sooner
rather than later)

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[Nicholas Geovanis]

You know Gene, I used to take the vacuum tubes to Walgreens to test them in
the tube-tester right by the front door ;-)
Gene OM, Google the Crystal Set Society  ;-)
Peace out, 73 de Nick

On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Friday 07 June 2019 06:24:00 am Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 01:23:45AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > >Not getting anyplace so far, but the reboot has given me only one
> > > agetty running on tty1, which looks like exactly
> > >what /etc/systemd/system/getty.target.wants/getty@tty1.service
> > >wants.  It also says as a comment:
> >
> > I don't think getty.target is relevant to you unless you are asking
> > systemd to set your system up to that target: the default target is
> > graphical.target, and the other one you are likely to use is
> > multi-user.target. If you haven't knowingly changed your system's
> > default target, it will be graphical.target.
> >
> > If you don't know what a systemd target is, then you likely haven't
> > changed your system to use one other than the default. (You can learn
> > more about systemd targets in the manpage systemd.target. They're
> > vaguely analogous to sysvinit runlevels).
> >
> > >root@coyote:getty.target.wants$ locate serial-getty@.service
> > >/lib/systemd/system/serial-getty@.service
> >
> > That's the "serial getty generator service". It's not a concrete
> > service per se, more a template from which concrete services will
> > derive. A concrete
> >
> > example would be serial-getty@ttyS0.service. On my system:
> > > ▶ systemctl status serial-getty@ttyS0.service
> > > ● serial-getty@ttyS0.service - Serial Getty on ttyS0
> > >Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/serial-getty@.service;
> > > disabled; vendor preset: enabled) Active: inactive (dead)
> > >  Docs: man:agetty(8)
> > >man:systemd-getty-generator(8)
> > >http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/serial-console.html
> >
> > So my system has a service defined for a getty on ttyS0 but it is both
> > disabled and not running. What I would have suggested to you, if you
> > still had your machine in the state where the getty was running, would
> > be to try "systemctl status serial-getty@ttyS0.service" and see what
> > the result was. If it were running, "systemctl stop
> > serial-getty@ttyS0.service" would stop it, and "systemctl disable
> > serial-getty@ttyS0.service" would disable it from starting
> > automatically again (if it were configured to do so).
> >
> > >But wouldn't a link to that have to exist in this /etc/systemd tree?
> >
> > No. Systemd reads the contents of /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd; the
> > latter overrides the former, if it specifies units with the same name.
> > This is so that the package manager can freely update and overwrite
> > units supplied in packages (to /lib/systemd), without interfering with
> > any manual configuration that you have performed as a user (in
> > /etc/systemd).
> >
> > >So what sort of a precondition that didn't happen on this reboot,
> > > would trigger this above file to grab and lockup /dev/ttyS0 like it
> > > did on the last reboot.
> >
> > If you caused a service to be started that expressed a dependency upon
> > serial-getty@ttyS0.service (or getty@ttyS0.service, that's also
> > possible although unlikely and not useful) then that would be one
> > explanation. I am not aware of any such service, and cannot find one
> > on my system at least.
> >
> Neither can I and this "service" is not a familiar term since this is my
> first expedition into systemd territory.
>
> And its and intermittent only service. I am the author of several handy
> utilities for that old Unix-like os on a box with a 16 bit address buss,
> and there are still a good 1000 users of it on this ball of rock &
> water. 2 services actually, one is called drivewire, and makes use if
> the machines bit banger port at 115kbaud, and this terminal function
> that minicom is doing against a hardware serial port on that machine. 2
> independent services.
>
> Drivewire was written in Java, and changes in Java from wheezy to stretch
> have killed that, but a replacement is being written in python in hopes
> it might be a more stable language. We as a group, had no clue that Java
> would be changed to be so damned incompatible with itself. So I'm
> playing canary in a coal mine testing the python version. For a machine
> that was new in the early 80's, I am amazed at the new blood it has
> attracted in the last 2 or 3 years. Mailing list sub count has nearly
> doubled in the last 4 years.  And with that new blood has come quite a
> list of of newly designed hardware accessories for it.  Sure, its being
> built on kitchen tables in runs of 10 or 20, but its happening 35 years
> later. That in itself is amazing. And redefines the word retro. I can
> recall the days when vacuum tubes were state of the art, and knowing how
> they work has given me a nice lengthy ladder up the side of that famous
> hog. A

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[Nicholas Geovanis]

On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 5:24 AM Jonathan Dowland  wrote:

>
> You are free to switch back to sysvinit if you wish. To do so you need to
> install sysvinit-core (and remove systemd-sysv, which will likely be
> removed
> by the action of installing sysvinit-core). This will change your init
> system
> to sysvinit, although it would not remove all of systemd, and some parts of
> it are likely depended upon by other stuff on your system.
>

I just learned earlier today of systemd-nspawn as a possible
containerization solution (my mind boggles).
Do you know if removing systemd-sysv would undercut nspawn?
Have you tried nspawn for that containerization? Any strong views?


> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
> ⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
>
>

systemd-nspawn + systemd-networkd

[basti]

Hello,
i have some systemd-nspan containers with  systemd-networkd and dhcp. so
far so good.
For the container I need a static address, I know in can be configured
on container side.

Is there a way to do this config only on host side?
Edit a file to bind mac address and ip for example.
Like kvm network or "real" dhcp can do?

Best Regards,

install debian cann't detect hard disk

[lina]

Hi,

I have tried different version of debian and even ubuntu on latest macbook pro.

I did the partition exactly follow very carefully based on the online
documents but it still failed to detect the hard disk during
installation.  Besides that I even can't run the live version. any
suggestions will be highly appreciated.

Thanks very much, lina

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[Michael Stone]

On Wed, Jun 05, 2019 at 10:04:09PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

grepping thru  /etc does not seem to find any hits, so I've no clue whats
starting it.


Did you happen to tell the kernel that ttyS0 was a console? (cat 
/proc/cmdline)

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 07 June 2019 06:24:00 am Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 01:23:45AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >Not getting anyplace so far, but the reboot has given me only one
> > agetty running on tty1, which looks like exactly
> >what /etc/systemd/system/getty.target.wants/getty@tty1.service
> >wants.  It also says as a comment:
>
> I don't think getty.target is relevant to you unless you are asking
> systemd to set your system up to that target: the default target is
> graphical.target, and the other one you are likely to use is
> multi-user.target. If you haven't knowingly changed your system's
> default target, it will be graphical.target.
>
> If you don't know what a systemd target is, then you likely haven't
> changed your system to use one other than the default. (You can learn
> more about systemd targets in the manpage systemd.target. They're
> vaguely analogous to sysvinit runlevels).
>
> >root@coyote:getty.target.wants$ locate serial-getty@.service
> >/lib/systemd/system/serial-getty@.service
>
> That's the "serial getty generator service". It's not a concrete
> service per se, more a template from which concrete services will
> derive. A concrete
>
> example would be serial-getty@ttyS0.service. On my system:
> > ▶ systemctl status serial-getty@ttyS0.service
> > ● serial-getty@ttyS0.service - Serial Getty on ttyS0
> >Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/serial-getty@.service;
> > disabled; vendor preset: enabled) Active: inactive (dead)
> >  Docs: man:agetty(8)
> >man:systemd-getty-generator(8)
> >http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/serial-console.html
>
> So my system has a service defined for a getty on ttyS0 but it is both
> disabled and not running. What I would have suggested to you, if you
> still had your machine in the state where the getty was running, would
> be to try "systemctl status serial-getty@ttyS0.service" and see what
> the result was. If it were running, "systemctl stop
> serial-getty@ttyS0.service" would stop it, and "systemctl disable
> serial-getty@ttyS0.service" would disable it from starting
> automatically again (if it were configured to do so).
>
> >But wouldn't a link to that have to exist in this /etc/systemd tree?
>
> No. Systemd reads the contents of /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd; the
> latter overrides the former, if it specifies units with the same name.
> This is so that the package manager can freely update and overwrite
> units supplied in packages (to /lib/systemd), without interfering with
> any manual configuration that you have performed as a user (in
> /etc/systemd).
>
> >So what sort of a precondition that didn't happen on this reboot,
> > would trigger this above file to grab and lockup /dev/ttyS0 like it
> > did on the last reboot.
>
> If you caused a service to be started that expressed a dependency upon
> serial-getty@ttyS0.service (or getty@ttyS0.service, that's also
> possible although unlikely and not useful) then that would be one
> explanation. I am not aware of any such service, and cannot find one
> on my system at least.
>
Neither can I and this "service" is not a familiar term since this is my 
first expedition into systemd territory.

And its and intermittent only service. I am the author of several handy 
utilities for that old Unix-like os on a box with a 16 bit address buss, 
and there are still a good 1000 users of it on this ball of rock & 
water. 2 services actually, one is called drivewire, and makes use if 
the machines bit banger port at 115kbaud, and this terminal function 
that minicom is doing against a hardware serial port on that machine. 2 
independent services.

Drivewire was written in Java, and changes in Java from wheezy to stretch 
have killed that, but a replacement is being written in python in hopes 
it might be a more stable language. We as a group, had no clue that Java 
would be changed to be so damned incompatible with itself. So I'm 
playing canary in a coal mine testing the python version. For a machine 
that was new in the early 80's, I am amazed at the new blood it has 
attracted in the last 2 or 3 years. Mailing list sub count has nearly 
doubled in the last 4 years.  And with that new blood has come quite a 
list of of newly designed hardware accessories for it.  Sure, its being 
built on kitchen tables in runs of 10 or 20, but its happening 35 years 
later. That in itself is amazing. And redefines the word retro. I can 
recall the days when vacuum tubes were state of the art, and knowing how 
they work has given me a nice lengthy ladder up the side of that famous 
hog. A rather broad knowledge of physics hasn't hurt a thing either, 
including Einsteins work.

> >I am beginning to get a very dim glimmer of how systemd works.  And
> > its not impressing me.
>
> You are free to switch back to sysvinit if you wish. To do so you need
> to install sysvinit-core (and remove systemd-sysv, which will likely
> be removed by the action of installing sysvinit-core). This wi

Re: openjdk-8-jre for buster

[Paul Sutton]

On 07/06/2019 16:27, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 04:23:25PM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:
>> I agree with the naming convention and subsequent names starting with
>> the same letter can cause confusion.   However Toy Story 5 (or is it 4)
>> is out at some point so that may give us a whole new set of names to
>> choose from.
> Toy Story 4 comes out this month.  Toy Story 3 was from... wikipedia
> says 2010, so it's been a while.
>
I suppose, as users of Debian we have a good excuse to go and see Toy
Story 4 without any kids tagging along :D

Not that most cinema-goers or other visitors would understand the
connection if we wear something Debian Related.

Paul

-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

Re: openjdk-8-jre for buster

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 04:23:25PM +0100, Paul Sutton wrote:
> I agree with the naming convention and subsequent names starting with
> the same letter can cause confusion.   However Toy Story 5 (or is it 4)
> is out at some point so that may give us a whole new set of names to
> choose from.

Toy Story 4 comes out this month.  Toy Story 3 was from... wikipedia
says 2010, so it's been a while.

Re: openjdk-8-jre for buster

[Paul Sutton]

On 07/06/2019 16:16, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 5:38 AM Jonathan Dowland  > wrote:
>
>
> You're quite right. I frequently mix up stretch and squeeze: the
> forthcoming
> run of Buster, Bullseye and Bookworm will be far more confusing
> for me :-(
>
>
> Perhaps it is time to switch to a different movie franchise.
> LOTR?
> How could you run out of names? Just pick a language :-)
>  
>
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
> ⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
>
I agree with the naming convention and subsequent names starting with
the same letter can cause confusion.   However Toy Story 5 (or is it 4)
is out at some point so that may give us a whole new set of names to
choose from.

Should keep us going till the next toy story film comes out :)

Paul



-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
gnupg : 7D6D B682 F351 8D08 1893  1E16 F086 5537 D066 302D

Re: openjdk-8-jre for buster

[Nicholas Geovanis]

On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 5:38 AM Jonathan Dowland  wrote:

>
> You're quite right. I frequently mix up stretch and squeeze: the
> forthcoming
> run of Buster, Bullseye and Bookworm will be far more confusing for me :-(
>

Perhaps it is time to switch to a different movie franchise.
LOTR?
How could you run out of names? Just pick a language :-)


> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
> ⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
>
>

Re: Problem with Mate in Buster on T480s

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Jun 06, 2019 at 03:51:20PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> What their software *does* do, assuming that you
> allow their cookies and script, is try to learn your preferences so that
> it can take what it thinks are your interests into account when ordering
> search results.  This works pretty well for the average user who is
> really only interested in major league sports and celebrities.

In my experience, it works pretty well for technical users too, as it
learns that yes, I want the computer-techie version of this term, or
the medical-industry version, rather than the sports-and-celebs version.

Re: Local mirror creation fails using aptly it says HTTP 404 (some packages not found) using mirror 'http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian'

[Sven Joachim]

On 2019-06-07 00:11 -0700, Jaikumar Sharma wrote:

> I'm using 'aptly' to create a local mirror from
> 'http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian' but it fails by throwing the below
> error, does it mean that some mirrors are incomplete as it says
> packages not found?
> I've also tried two to three other debian mirrors too but found the same 
> issue with them too.
>
> If packages are not in place, then which mirror (the best mirror) can be used 
> to overcome this issue? Thank you in advance!
>
> Regards,
> Jaikumar
>
> 
>
> Downloading 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/h/haskell-vty/haskell-vty_4.7.0.20-3.debian.tar.gz...
> Downloading 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/h/haskell-vty/haskell-vty_4.7.0.20-3.dsc...
> Downloading 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/h/haskell-vty/haskell-vty_4.7.0.20.orig.tar.gz...
> ERROR: unable to update: download errors:
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/linux/linux_3.16.7-ckt4-3.debian.tar.xz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/d/dpkg/dpkg_1.17.13.tar.xz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/linux/linux_3.16.7-ckt4-3.dsc
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/d/dpkg/dpkg_1.17.13.dsc
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/linux/linux_3.16.7-ckt4.orig.tar.xz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gettext/gettext_0.19.2.orig.tar.xz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gettext/gettext_0.19.2-1.dsc
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gettext/gettext_0.19.2-1.debian.tar.xz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/d/dpkg/dpkg_1.17.12.dsc
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/d/dpkg/dpkg_1.17.12.tar.xz

I haven't looked at all the files, but the source packages for dpkg
1.17.1{2,3} are indeed missing, although they are referenced in Jessie's
Sources.xz file (with "Extra-Source-Only: yes").  This is likely due to
the partial removal of Jessie from the mirrors[1].

On archive.org[2] the source packages in question are indeed there.  I
would suggest to file a bug report against the ftp.debian.org
pseudopackage.

Cheers,
   Sven


1. https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2019/03/msg6.html
2. http://archive.debian.org/debian/pool/main/d/dpkg/

Re: Local mirror creation fails using aptly it says HTTP 404 (some packages not found) using mirror 'http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian'

[Georgi Naplatanov]

On 6/7/19 10:11 AM, Jaikumar Sharma wrote:
> Hi Team,
> 
> I'm using 'aptly' to create a local mirror from 
> 'http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian' but it fails by throwing the below error, 
> does it mean that some mirrors are incomplete as it says packages not found?
> I've also tried two to three other debian mirrors too but found the same 
> issue with them too.
> 
> If packages are not in place, then which mirror (the best mirror) can be used 
> to overcome this issue? Thank you in advance!
> 
> Regards,
> Jaikumar
> 
> 
> 
> Downloading 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/h/haskell-vty/haskell-vty_4.7.0.20-3.debian.tar.gz...
> Downloading 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/h/haskell-vty/haskell-vty_4.7.0.20-3.dsc...
> Downloading 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/h/haskell-vty/haskell-vty_4.7.0.20.orig.tar.gz...
> ERROR: unable to update: download errors:
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/linux/linux_3.16.7-ckt4-3.debian.tar.xz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/d/dpkg/dpkg_1.17.13.tar.xz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/linux/linux_3.16.7-ckt4-3.dsc
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/d/dpkg/dpkg_1.17.13.dsc
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/linux/linux_3.16.7-ckt4.orig.tar.xz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gettext/gettext_0.19.2.orig.tar.xz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gettext/gettext_0.19.2-1.dsc
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gettext/gettext_0.19.2-1.debian.tar.xz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/d/dpkg/dpkg_1.17.12.dsc
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/d/dpkg/dpkg_1.17.12.tar.xz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/linux/linux_3.16.7-ckt2-1.debian.tar.xz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/linux/linux_3.16.7-ckt2-1.dsc
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/linux/linux_3.16.7-ckt2.orig.tar.xz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gcc-4.9/gcc-4.9_4.9.1-17.diff.gz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gcc-4.9/gcc-4.9_4.9.1-9.diff.gz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gcc-4.9/gcc-4.9_4.9.1-17.dsc
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gcc-4.9/gcc-4.9_4.9.1-9.dsc
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gcc-4.9/gcc-4.9_4.9.1-8.diff.gz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gcc-4.9/gcc-4.9_4.9.1-8.dsc
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/h/haskell-vty/haskell-vty_4.7.0.20-3.debian.tar.gz
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/h/haskell-vty/haskell-vty_4.7.0.20-3.dsc
>   HTTP code 404 while fetching 
> http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/h/haskell-vty/haskell-vty_4.7.0.20.orig.tar.gz
> 

It seems you've tried to download old Debian version (v. 8 probably).

You can try to use some of those mirrors:

https://www.debian.org/distrib/archive

Kind regards
Georgi

Re: openjdk-8-jre for buster

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Thu, Jun 06, 2019 at 08:00:17AM -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:

Since you say "current" stable, I assume you mean stretch.  The support
for squeeze (even LTS) ended quite some time ago :-)


You're quite right. I frequently mix up stretch and squeeze: the forthcoming
run of Buster, Bullseye and Bookworm will be far more confusing for me :-(

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: What is agetty, and why can't it be stopped?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 01:23:45AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

Not getting anyplace so far, but the reboot has given me only one agetty
running on tty1, which looks like exactly
what /etc/systemd/system/getty.target.wants/getty@tty1.service
wants.  It also says as a comment:


I don't think getty.target is relevant to you unless you are asking systemd to
set your system up to that target: the default target is graphical.target, and
the other one you are likely to use is multi-user.target. If you haven't
knowingly changed your system's default target, it will be graphical.target.

If you don't know what a systemd target is, then you likely haven't changed
your system to use one other than the default. (You can learn more about systemd
targets in the manpage systemd.target. They're vaguely analogous to sysvinit
runlevels).


root@coyote:getty.target.wants$ locate serial-getty@.service
/lib/systemd/system/serial-getty@.service


That's the "serial getty generator service". It's not a concrete service per
se, more a template from which concrete services will derive. A concrete
example would be serial-getty@ttyS0.service. On my system:


▶ systemctl status serial-getty@ttyS0.service
● serial-getty@ttyS0.service - Serial Getty on ttyS0
   Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/serial-getty@.service; disabled; vendor 
preset: enabled)
   Active: inactive (dead)
 Docs: man:agetty(8)
   man:systemd-getty-generator(8)
   http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/serial-console.html


So my system has a service defined for a getty on ttyS0 but it is both
disabled and not running. What I would have suggested to you, if you still
had your machine in the state where the getty was running, would be to
try "systemctl status serial-getty@ttyS0.service" and see what the result
was. If it were running, "systemctl stop serial-getty@ttyS0.service" would
stop it, and "systemctl disable serial-getty@ttyS0.service" would disable
it from starting automatically again (if it were configured to do so).


But wouldn't a link to that have to exist in this /etc/systemd tree?


No. Systemd reads the contents of /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd; the latter
overrides the former, if it specifies units with the same name. This is so
that the package manager can freely update and overwrite units supplied in
packages (to /lib/systemd), without interfering with any manual configuration
that you have performed as a user (in /etc/systemd).


So what sort of a precondition that didn't happen on this reboot, would
trigger this above file to grab and lockup /dev/ttyS0 like it did on the
last reboot.


If you caused a service to be started that expressed a dependency upon
serial-getty@ttyS0.service (or getty@ttyS0.service, that's also possible
although unlikely and not useful) then that would be one explanation. I am not
aware of any such service, and cannot find one on my system at least.


I am beginning to get a very dim glimmer of how systemd works.  And its
not impressing me.


You are free to switch back to sysvinit if you wish. To do so you need to
install sysvinit-core (and remove systemd-sysv, which will likely be removed
by the action of installing sysvinit-core). This will change your init system
to sysvinit, although it would not remove all of systemd, and some parts of
it are likely depended upon by other stuff on your system.


--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Local mirror creation fails using aptly it says HTTP 404 (some packages not found) using mirror 'http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian'

[Jaikumar Sharma]

Hi Team,

I'm using 'aptly' to create a local mirror from 
'http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian' but it fails by throwing the below error, 
does it mean that some mirrors are incomplete as it says packages not found?
I've also tried two to three other debian mirrors too but found the same issue 
with them too.

If packages are not in place, then which mirror (the best mirror) can be used 
to overcome this issue? Thank you in advance!

Regards,
Jaikumar



Downloading 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/h/haskell-vty/haskell-vty_4.7.0.20-3.debian.tar.gz...
Downloading 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/h/haskell-vty/haskell-vty_4.7.0.20-3.dsc...
Downloading 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/h/haskell-vty/haskell-vty_4.7.0.20.orig.tar.gz...
ERROR: unable to update: download errors:
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/linux/linux_3.16.7-ckt4-3.debian.tar.xz
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/d/dpkg/dpkg_1.17.13.tar.xz
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/linux/linux_3.16.7-ckt4-3.dsc
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/d/dpkg/dpkg_1.17.13.dsc
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/linux/linux_3.16.7-ckt4.orig.tar.xz
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gettext/gettext_0.19.2.orig.tar.xz
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gettext/gettext_0.19.2-1.dsc
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gettext/gettext_0.19.2-1.debian.tar.xz
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/d/dpkg/dpkg_1.17.12.dsc
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/d/dpkg/dpkg_1.17.12.tar.xz
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/linux/linux_3.16.7-ckt2-1.debian.tar.xz
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/linux/linux_3.16.7-ckt2-1.dsc
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/l/linux/linux_3.16.7-ckt2.orig.tar.xz
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gcc-4.9/gcc-4.9_4.9.1-17.diff.gz
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gcc-4.9/gcc-4.9_4.9.1-9.diff.gz
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gcc-4.9/gcc-4.9_4.9.1-17.dsc
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gcc-4.9/gcc-4.9_4.9.1-9.dsc
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gcc-4.9/gcc-4.9_4.9.1-8.diff.gz
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gcc-4.9/gcc-4.9_4.9.1-8.dsc
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/h/haskell-vty/haskell-vty_4.7.0.20-3.debian.tar.gz
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/h/haskell-vty/haskell-vty_4.7.0.20-3.dsc
  HTTP code 404 while fetching 
http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/pool/main/h/haskell-vty/haskell-vty_4.7.0.20.orig.tar.gz

Re: Problem with Mate in Buster on T480s

[tomas]

On Thu, Jun 06, 2019 at 04:46:26PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> I wrote:
> > Just block Google's cookies and scripts and it works fine [...]
> 
> tomas writes:
> > I don't even want to feed them the info that I'm looking
> > for something.

[...]

> Since their ads never result in me buying anything (actually I rarely
> even see them), I'm costing them money by using their search engine.

That's at least what you think.

> [1] Yes, they could track my (dynamic) ip and/or "fingerprint" my
> system.  They won't.  I'm not worth it to them.

They do. That's at their business model's very heart.

Cheers
-- t


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