Re: buster netinst timezone

[john doe]

On 8/10/2019 7:42 AM, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 10:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
>> It's not clear to me why you couldn't select this, nor why your files
>> would have the wrong timestamp. Here's some output from a buster
>> installation on acer. As it was my first, I kept the typescript.
> ...
>
> Thanks, David.  For some reason on my first installation attempt, the
> menu hung and did not allow me to select ADVANCE OPTIONS -> EXPERT
> INSTALL.  This is a notebook; I may have pressed two keys at one
> accidentally.
>
> But on a subsequent attempt, I was able to select EXPERT INSTALL, and
> that allows me to specify UTC.  So for this installation, the issue is
> resolved.
>
> But I still think that even the non-expert should be allowed, if not
> strongly encouraged, to use UTC.
>

If I'm not mistaking, this option is offered neer the end of the
non-advance installation.

--
John Doe

Re: buster netinst timezone

[Russell L. Harris]

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 10:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote:

It's not clear to me why you couldn't select this, nor why your files
would have the wrong timestamp. Here's some output from a buster
installation on acer. As it was my first, I kept the typescript.

...

Thanks, David.  For some reason on my first installation attempt, the
menu hung and did not allow me to select ADVANCE OPTIONS -> EXPERT
INSTALL.  This is a notebook; I may have pressed two keys at one
accidentally.

But on a subsequent attempt, I was able to select EXPERT INSTALL, and
that allows me to specify UTC.  So for this installation, the issue is
resolved.

But I still think that even the non-expert should be allowed, if not
strongly encouraged, to use UTC.

Re: history/history.db files appearing

[Andrew McGlashan]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi,

On 10/8/19 1:32 pm, David wrote:
> I don't know the answer, but you might find some clues here: 
> https://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=history.db&literal=1 Note 
> the list of package names at the top of the page.

Why is it not accessible via the Tor network?  :(

A.
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Re: history/history.db files appearing

[Judah Richardson]

Do you have some kind of backup, sync, or versioning application running?

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019, 22:01 Greg Marks  wrote:

> On a computer running Debian 10, in a number of directories a
> subdirectory "history" has mysteriously appeared containing a
> file history.db.  There are 11 of these history.db files in various
> places in my home directory; cmp reveals that they are all identical.
> Each is an "SQLite 3.x database, last written using SQLite version
> 3027002."  Each is a 12288-byte file containing, in addition to a
> bunch of special characters, the words: "tableversionversionCREATE
> TABLE version ( version VARCHAR NOT NULL, datfile VARCHAR UNIQUE NOT
> NULL)-Andexsqlite_autoindex_version_1version."  In some (but not all)
> cases the timestamp on history/history.db matches the timestamp of some
> file I was editing with vim 8.1.1401 in the same directory containing the
> history subdirectory--for whatever that's worth--but I can't reproduce
> the phenomenon by editing similar files with vim.  All history/history.db
> files appeared since upgrading from Debian 9.  I couldn't find anything
> relevant in the log files around the timestamps of the mystery files.
>
> Does anyone know what might be causing this?  As far as I can tell it's
> harmless, but it is a bit disquieting when files start appearing that
> I didn't intentionally create.
>
> Regards,
> Greg Marks
>

Re: buster netinst timezone

[David Wright]

On Fri 09 Aug 2019 at 21:38:23 (+), Russell L. Harris wrote:
> The netinst cd image for Buster 10.0.0 does not offer a UTC option for
> English -> United States.
> 
> This is a critical bug; every installer without exception should offer UTC.
> 
> Is there a work-around, so that files written during the
> installation process have the correct datestamp?
> 
> One suggestion was to select English -> Great Britain, but this
> possibly has other consequences regarding locale settings.

It's not clear to me why you couldn't select this, nor why your files
would have the wrong timestamp. Here's some output from a buster
installation on acer. As it was my first, I kept the typescript.

Current output from acer itself:



acer!david 22:24:52 ~ $ cat /etc/debian_version
10.0
acer!david 22:24:55 ~ $ locale
LANG=en_US.UTF-8
LANGUAGE=
LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_COLLATE="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_MONETARY="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_MESSAGES="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_PAPER="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_NAME="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_ADDRESS="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_ALL=
acer!david 22:24:57 ~ $ ls -l /var/log/installer/
total 864
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root   4096 Jul 12 11:48 cdebconf
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root  33297 Jul 12 11:48 hardware-summary
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root152 Jul 12 11:48 lsb-release
-rw-r- 1 root adm  250698 Jul 12 11:48 partman
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root  76445 Jul 12 11:48 status
-rw-r- 1 root adm  50 Jul 12 11:48 syslog
acer!david 22:24:59 ~ $ TZ=UTC0 ls -l /var/log/installer/
total 864
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root   4096 Jul 12 16:48 cdebconf
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root  33297 Jul 12 16:48 hardware-summary
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root152 Jul 12 16:48 lsb-release
-rw-r- 1 root adm  250698 Jul 12 16:48 partman
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root  76445 Jul 12 16:48 status
-rw-r- 1 root adm  50 Jul 12 16:48 syslog
acer!david 22:25:00 ~ $ 



And here are clock-y extracts from the typescript of installing
buster onto acer last month (captured on wren via ssh). The
box you want is the fourth (I select Central):



Script started on Fri 12 Jul 2019 11:12:26 AM CDT
(This is /home/david/.bashrc 2019 July 10)
(This is /home/david/.bash-1-wren 2019 January 26 on stretch)
(This is /home/david/.bash-u-usbs 2019 June 01)
(This is /home/david/.bash-t-transfers 2019 June 17 enp1s0)
(This is /home/david/.bash-w-web 2019 June 19)
(This is /home/david/.bash-9-wren 2019 June 13 @1600x900)
wren!david 11:15:26 ~ $ installer-on 192.168.1.201
The authenticity of host '192.168.1.201 (192.168.1.201)' can't be established.
RSA key fingerprint is SHA256:YFp6hlF+Et+KjrJFJZHVnf23G+HORSXMY9Hr3OaGubc.
Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? yes
Warning: Permanently added '192.168.1.201' (RSA) to the list of known hosts.
installer@192.168.1.201's password:
/var/run/utmp: No such file or directory

┌┤ [!!] Configuring d-i ├─┐
│ │
│ This is the network console for the Debian installer. From here, you│
│ may start the Debian installer, or execute an interactive shell.│
│ │
│ To return to this menu, you will need to log in again.  │
│ │
│ Network console option: │
│ │
│Start installer  │
│Start installer (expert mode)│
│Start shell  │
│ │
└─┘

[…]


┌───┤ [?] Configure the clock ├┐
│  │
│ The Network Time Protocol (NTP) can be used to set the system's  │
│ clock. The installation process works best with a correctly set  │
│ clock.   │
│  │
│ Set the clock using NTP? │
│  │
│ │
│  │
└──┘

┌┤ [.] Configure the clock ├─┐
││
│ The default NTP server is almost always a good choice, but if you  │
│ prefer to use another NTP server,

Re: history/history.db files appearing

[David]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2019 at 13:01, Greg Marks  wrote:
>
> On a computer running Debian 10, in a number of directories a
> subdirectory "history" has mysteriously appeared containing a
> file history.db.
[...]
> Does anyone know what might be causing this?

I don't know the answer, but you might find some clues here:
https://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=history.db&literal=1
Note the list of package names at the top of the page.

history/history.db files appearing

[Greg Marks]

On a computer running Debian 10, in a number of directories a
subdirectory "history" has mysteriously appeared containing a
file history.db.  There are 11 of these history.db files in various
places in my home directory; cmp reveals that they are all identical.
Each is an "SQLite 3.x database, last written using SQLite version
3027002."  Each is a 12288-byte file containing, in addition to a
bunch of special characters, the words: "tableversionversionCREATE
TABLE version ( version VARCHAR NOT NULL, datfile VARCHAR UNIQUE NOT
NULL)-Andexsqlite_autoindex_version_1version."  In some (but not all)
cases the timestamp on history/history.db matches the timestamp of some
file I was editing with vim 8.1.1401 in the same directory containing the
history subdirectory--for whatever that's worth--but I can't reproduce
the phenomenon by editing similar files with vim.  All history/history.db
files appeared since upgrading from Debian 9.  I couldn't find anything
relevant in the log files around the timestamps of the mystery files.

Does anyone know what might be causing this?  As far as I can tell it's
harmless, but it is a bit disquieting when files start appearing that
I didn't intentionally create.

Regards,
Greg Marks


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Re: buster netinst timezone

[Patrick Bartek]

On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 21:38:23 +
"Russell L. Harris"  wrote:

> The netinst cd image for Buster 10.0.0 does not offer a UTC option for
> English -> United States.

Mine did.  IIRC it was part of the timezone choice at install. Last in
the list. Stock Buster Netinstall CD. I don't use UTC, but local time
instead since at one time I used to dual boot this system with
WindowsXP, and it didn't play nice with UTC.  Never changed it after I
moved XP to Virtualbox.

> This is a critical bug; every installer without exception should offer UTC.
> 
> Is there a work-around, so that files written during the
> installation process have the correct datestamp?
> 
> One suggestion was to select English -> Great Britain, but this
> possibly has other consequences regarding locale settings.

I used the "text" install option instead of the artsy-fartsy GUI
to install Buster in Virtualbox.  Install went fine.  No problems.

I did both a basic terminal only system which I later added xorg and the
Openbox window manager, etc. and a default LXDE desktop as another VM.
I avoid GNOME like the plague.  Stopped using it when I left Fedora 12
behind in favor of Debian some . . . what? . . . 7 years ago?

B

Re: buster netinst timezone

[John Hasler]

Charlie Kravetz writes:
> The installer attempts to allow all actual timezones for a
> country. The United States does not actually have a timezone called
> UTC.

UTC isn't a timezone.  It should be offered, though.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: buster netinst timezone

[Charlie Kravetz]

On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 21:38:23 +
"Russell L. Harris"  wrote:

>The netinst cd image for Buster 10.0.0 does not offer a UTC option for
>English -> United States.
>
>This is a critical bug; every installer without exception should offer UTC.
>
>Is there a work-around, so that files written during the
>installation process have the correct datestamp?
>
>One suggestion was to select English -> Great Britain, but this
>possibly has other consequences regarding locale settings.
>

The installer attempts to allow all actual timezones for a country. The
United States does not actually have a timezone called UTC.

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Steven Mainor]

I bought a turris omnia router recently and so far it has worked out pretty 
well. 
--
Steven Mainor

On August 9, 2019 12:59:34 PM EDT, Reco  wrote:
>On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 06:16:21PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
>> John Hasler wrote:
>> 
>> >  Steven Mainor writes:
>> >  > It looks like there are some ESPRESSOBIN v7s on Amazon right
>now.
>> > 
>> > Excellent.  When I looked yesterday Amazon said "None available". 
>I
>> > think I'll order one today.  The ancient Dell I'm now using as a
>> > router/firewall is getting flaky.  I've wanted to replace it some
>time
>> > but I want something ARM-based.  This is the first suitable board
>I've
>> > seen that has dual ethernet.  I'll stick it in a box along with the
>> > modem, the switch, and a power supply.
>> 
>> This one was very appealing 
>>
>https://www.amazon.de/DMC-Taiwan-Industrial-Networking-Processor/dp/B07T3TWYLJ/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&keywords=acrosser&qid=1561237800&s=gateway&sr=8-11
>
>$430 for a router? Surely you're kidding.
>
>This one is five times cheaper *and* it can run Debian or openwrt:
>
>https://www.amazon.com/Linksys-Dual-Band-Wireless-Gigabit-WRT1200AC/dp/B00UVN20T0/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=linksys+wrt+1200&qid=1565369861&s=gateway&sr=8-2
>
>Reco

mount weirdness reloaded

[Dennis Wicks]

Greetings once again;

Tomorrow morning I am going to reboot and see if my problem 
happens again.


If you have some suggestions on what info to gather then let 
me know. Bear in mind that during the boot process my system 
is pretty much unresponsive for the hour or so until the 
window manager is up and everything has settled down.


Regards,
Dennis

buster netinst timezone

[Russell L. Harris]

The netinst cd image for Buster 10.0.0 does not offer a UTC option for
English -> United States.

This is a critical bug; every installer without exception should offer UTC.

Is there a work-around, so that files written during the
installation process have the correct datestamp?

One suggestion was to select English -> Great Britain, but this
possibly has other consequences regarding locale settings.

Firefox: Some buttons on mozilla web pages do nothing when pressed

[EDWARD JONES]

I use Firefox 60.8.0esr-1~deb10 which is a package in Debian 10.0 (stable).


I have had the following problems with Firefox for several days.



The following problem suddenly went away today. I did not do anything. But
History Cleaner was last updated on August 9, 2019.  Today!


I go to the page:


https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/history-cleaner/?src=search


I click on "+Add to Firefox". A small box appears at the top. I click on
"Add". It hangs. The browser console says:


"PopupNotifications._onButtonEvent: Button click happened before the window
was focused"


The "Cancel" option in the box also fails.



Click "Help", then click "Troubleshooting information". A few lines down is
a box that says "Open Directory". Nothing happens when I click on the box.



Go to the Refresh Firefox page at:


https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/refresh-firefox-reset-add-ons-and-settings


There is a box saying "Refresh Firefox". Clicking on the box does nothing.


Thanks.

Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Bob Crochelt]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019, at 10:14, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 09 August 2019 07:59:07 Bob Crochelt wrote:
> 
> > Gene,
> > I’m scheduled for some heart rewiring myself. Good luck to the both of
> > us! Bob Crochelt
> 
> My heart guy is out of the country till around Sept 1. So I'm takeing an 
> extra half a 7.5gr warfarin pill a day to ward off another 
> clot/blockage. I've been taking the 7.5 since I survived a pulmonary 
> embolism about 5 years back but recent tests earlier this week had the 
> clot time below 2 and thats not good, needs more rat poison. If I get to 
> feeling bad I'll yell for a ride to Mon General in Morgantown about 60 
> miles north who has several heart guys on staff. So all I'm doing is 
> the dishes and cooking for the two of us. Shop work is on hold.
> 
> I'll have to get the next door neighbor to do that while I'm gone in that 
> event as the missus isn't ambulatory any more. Good neighbors, we share 
> wedding anniversaries, 30 for us on Dec 2nd, 41 for them. 
> 
> Pulmonary embolisms aren't fun, typical survival rate is less than 2%. 
> Sorta funny, when I was in Mon Gen before, thats a teaching hospital, 
> and the doc in charge of me that time always had an entourage of interns 
> along showing them that surviveing a P-E was possible. Made me feel like 
> a pet purple hamster or something. :)
> 
> Putting in heparin by the gallon, I was up to make water at about 20 
> minute intervals 24/7. Very poor sleep, and the room was too cold but I 
> jiggered the stat to fix that. One of the nurses started to fix it and I 
> flat told her if she was going to set it back down she could find me 
> blankets big enough and warm enough. What they had weren't much bigger 
> than a cloth diaper. 8 days. First time ever in a hospital.
> 
> I lost nearly 20 lbs by the time I was home for 3 or 4 days & had a 
> chance to get rid of it. Legs blown up like phone poles.
> 
> I had a pacemaker installed back in January, pulse was in the low 30's 
> when I walked in the ER door & said I thought I needed one, getting a 
> bit woozy in between heartbeats. They didn't argue with me a bit. I was 
> a "live one with an AARP plan F policy". ;-)
> 
> Good luck with yours too Bob.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
> - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
> 

Thanks Gene. I’m “just” having an afib ablation. I used to live in Elkins, Mon 
General is great. My resting heart rate when not in afib is 49, so I may be 
joining you in the pacemaker club some day. Best wishes

Re: Systemd start that won't stop

[Felix Miata]

Curt Howland composed on 2019-08-09 13:53 (UTC-0400):

> plymouth-quit-wait.service 
...
> I have no idea what a "plymouth" is.

Several things it brings to the table:
1-avoids /dastardly/ "flicker" on mode switching during startup
2-bling/eye candy during startup
3-bloats initrd
4-encryption handling
5-yet another tool for systemd to disrupt startup/shutdown

Its progenitor seems to be Fedora/Gnome:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BetterStartup

On my own installations I always block its installation, or remove it, or 
disable
it, depending on how and when it comes to my attention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_(software)
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: Systemd start that won't stop

[Étienne Mollier]

Greg Wooledge, on 2019-08-09:
> On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 09:48:41PM +0200, Étienne Mollier wrote:
> > It [plymouth] seems to be pulled by "task-gnome-desktop", either by
> > dependency, or mere recommendation, I don't know.  From the
> > quick test I did, it appeared in the list of packages to be
> > installed:
> >
> > $ sudo apt install task-gnome-desktop
> >
> > This looks like a component of Debian default installation from
> > now on; unless I misunderstood the role of task-* packages.
> > Hence the sudden rise in popularity.
>
> wooledg:~$ apt-cache show task-gnome-desktop | egrep 
> '(Depends|Recommends|Suggets):'
> Depends: tasksel (= 3.53), task-desktop, gnome-core
> Recommends: gnome, libreoffice-gnome, libreoffice-writer, libreoffice-calc, 
> libreoffice-impress, libreoffice-help-en-us, mythes-en-us, hunspell-en-us, 
> hyphen-en-us, network-manager-gnome
>
> wooledg:~$ apt-cache show task-desktop | egrep '(Depends|Recommends|Suggets):'
> Depends: tasksel (= 3.53), xorg, xserver-xorg-video-all, 
> xserver-xorg-input-all, desktop-base
> Recommends: task-gnome-desktop | task-xfce-desktop | task-kde-desktop | 
> task-lxde-desktop | task-cinnamon-desktop | task-mate-desktop | 
> task-lxqt-desktop, xdg-utils, avahi-daemon, libnss-mdns, anacron, eject, iw, 
> alsa-utils, libu2f-udev, sudo, firefox | firefox-esr
>
> wooledg:~$ apt-cache show desktop-base | egrep '(Depends|Recommends|Suggets):'
> Depends: librsvg2-common, fonts-quicksand
> Recommends: plymouth-label
>
> wooledg:~$ apt-cache show plymouth-label | egrep 
> '(Depends|Recommends|Suggets):'
> Depends: plymouth (= 0.9.4-1.1), libc6 (>= 2.4), libcairo2 (>= 1.14.0), 
> libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.12.0), libpango-1.0-0 (>= 1.14.0), libpangocairo-1.0-0 (>= 
> 1.14.0), libplymouth4 (>= 0.9.3)
>
>
> ... so, probably not *just* GNOME, then.

Whoah!  Indeed!  The presence of task-desktop in the chain
suggests that this would be the case for any of the possible
desktop available.  It seems that we will have to get used to
it.

Thanks for having spotted this!

Personally, I missed it because I stick to the "Base utilities"
and "SSH server" options when setting up a machine for myself
using Debian Installer ISO.

Kind regards,
-- 
Étienne Mollier 
   5ab1 4edf 63bb ccff 8b54 2fa9 59da 56fe fff3 882d




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Re: Systemd start that won't stop

[Sven Joachim]

On 2019-08-09 21:48 +0200, Étienne Mollier wrote:

> It seems to be pulled by "task-gnome-desktop", either by
> dependency, or mere recommendation, I don't know.  From the
> quick test I did, it appeared in the list of packages to be
> installed:
>
>   $ sudo apt install task-gnome-desktop
>
> This looks like a component of Debian default installation from
> now on; unless I misunderstood the role of task-* packages.
> Hence the sudden rise in popularity.

Thanks.  As Greg has already pointed out, it is actually desktop-base
which recommends plymouth-label.  In the changelog I found the following
explanation:

,
| desktop-base (10.0.1) unstable; urgency=medium
| [...]
|   [ Jonathan Carter ]
|   * Add plymouth-label as recommends (Closes: #927077)
| 
|  -- Jonathan Carter   Thu, 04 Apr 2019 17:27:08 +0200
`

Reading the log of bug #927077 I have my doubts that this was a good
idea, but I'm a layman when it comes to modern desktops.

Cheers,
   Sven

Re: Systemd start that won't stop

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 09:48:41PM +0200, Étienne Mollier wrote:
> It [plymouth] seems to be pulled by "task-gnome-desktop", either by
> dependency, or mere recommendation, I don't know.  From the
> quick test I did, it appeared in the list of packages to be
> installed:
> 
>   $ sudo apt install task-gnome-desktop
> 
> This looks like a component of Debian default installation from
> now on; unless I misunderstood the role of task-* packages.
> Hence the sudden rise in popularity.

wooledg:~$ apt-cache show task-gnome-desktop | egrep 
'(Depends|Recommends|Suggets):'
Depends: tasksel (= 3.53), task-desktop, gnome-core
Recommends: gnome, libreoffice-gnome, libreoffice-writer, libreoffice-calc, 
libreoffice-impress, libreoffice-help-en-us, mythes-en-us, hunspell-en-us, 
hyphen-en-us, network-manager-gnome

wooledg:~$ apt-cache show task-desktop | egrep '(Depends|Recommends|Suggets):'  
Depends: tasksel (= 3.53), xorg, xserver-xorg-video-all, 
xserver-xorg-input-all, desktop-base
Recommends: task-gnome-desktop | task-xfce-desktop | task-kde-desktop | 
task-lxde-desktop | task-cinnamon-desktop | task-mate-desktop | 
task-lxqt-desktop, xdg-utils, avahi-daemon, libnss-mdns, anacron, eject, iw, 
alsa-utils, libu2f-udev, sudo, firefox | firefox-esr

wooledg:~$ apt-cache show desktop-base | egrep '(Depends|Recommends|Suggets):'
Depends: librsvg2-common, fonts-quicksand
Recommends: plymouth-label

wooledg:~$ apt-cache show plymouth-label | egrep 
'(Depends|Recommends|Suggets):'Depends: plymouth (= 0.9.4-1.1), libc6 (>= 2.4), 
libcairo2 (>= 1.14.0), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.12.0), libpango-1.0-0 (>= 1.14.0), 
libpangocairo-1.0-0 (>= 1.14.0), libplymouth4 (>= 0.9.3)


... so, probably not *just* GNOME, then.

Re: Systemd start that won't stop

[Étienne Mollier]

On 09/08/2019 21.15, Sven Joachim wrote:
> On 2019-08-09 13:53 -0400, Curt Howland wrote:
> 
>> On 8/9/19, Curt Howland  wrote:
>>> Hi. New Buster install.
>>> [ ***] A start job is running for Hold until boot process finishes (2h
>>> 54m 38s / no limit)
>> Those asterisks are also red, and moving left to right, the same as
>> seen during shutdown when something won't politely die.
>>
>> Only two things look interesting to me under "list units::
>> # systemctl list-units
>> getty@tty1.serviceloaded inactive
>> dead  start Getty on tty1
>> plymouth-quit-wait.serviceloaded activating
>> start start Hold until boot process f
>>
>> Since tty1 would be the console, it makes sense that it would be dead.
>> I have no idea what a "plymouth" is.
> So you probably have no idea why it is installed in the first place?
> Just curious, because there is a huge rise for plymouth in the number of
> popcon submissions[1] since the Buster release, and I wonder why.
> 
> Cheers,
>Sven

Good day Sven,

It seems to be pulled by "task-gnome-desktop", either by
dependency, or mere recommendation, I don't know.  From the
quick test I did, it appeared in the list of packages to be
installed:

$ sudo apt install task-gnome-desktop

This looks like a component of Debian default installation from
now on; unless I misunderstood the role of task-* packages.
Hence the sudden rise in popularity.

Kind regards,
-- 
Étienne Mollier 
   5AB1 4EDF 63BB CCFF 8B54 2FA9 59DA 56FE FFF3 882D



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Re: mount weirdness

[Dennis Wicks]

David Wright wrote on 8/8/19 9:04 AM:

On Thu 08 Aug 2019 at 08:19:22 (-), Curt wrote:

On 2019-08-05, Dennis Wicks  wrote:

So anyway, I typed in "sudo mount /dev/sdb2 /wa1" and it
seemed to finish successfully, but "ls /wa1" indicated that
in fact it had not. Nothing mounted on wa1! Many other tests
told me the same thing. "umount /wa1" said "not mounted"!


Would this be the result if /dev/sdb2 were already mounted (i.e. nothing?).


Try it. I, at least, would be interested in the result.
So far, the voting is 2-1 against seeing what I see:

wren 08:50:11 ~# lsblk -f | grep sda7
├─sda7   ext4swan07  4a4e352f-2180-4083-92b4-f46e4e0104b4 
/wrenbk
wren 08:50:26 ~# mkdir /wa1 /somethingelse
wren 08:50:49 ~# mount /dev/sda7 /somethingelse
mount: /dev/sda7 is already mounted or /somethingelse busy
/dev/sda7 is already mounted on /wrenbk
32 wren 08:51:16 ~# mount /dev/sda7 /wa1
mount: /dev/sda7 is already mounted or /wa1 busy
/dev/sda7 is already mounted on /wrenbk
32 wren 08:51:31 ~# rmdir /wa1 /somethingelse
wren 08:51:53 ~#

By way of explanation, the prompt is
export PROMPT_COMMAND='MYPROMPT="$? " && [ "$MYPROMPT" = "0 " ] && MYPROMPT=""'
export PS1='\[\e[1;33;41m\]$MYPROMPT\[\e[1;37;44m\]\H \t \w\[\e[0m\]\$ ' # blue
but I normally cut it to reduce clutter.


Many other tests. What about 'mount' from an xterm to see what's mounted
and what ain't and where?

Did you show your /etc/fstab file (cut and paste)? If so, I must've missed
it.

BTW, what's with the exclamation points? Makes you seem enthusiastic.


Yes, I couldn't figure that out, nor what good a note in /etc/fstab
would do (in the reply to Thomas). Does one peruse that file each time
one reboots?

Cheers,
David.



Greetings;

What system are you running, David? I am running vanilla 
Debian bullseye, recently upgraded. Been running Debian for 
years and have never gotten those errors. This is what 
happens to me.


 wix@dgwicks:~$ s mount /dev/sdc1 /test1
 wix@dgwicks:~$ s mount /dev/sdc1 /test2
 wix@dgwicks:~$ findmnt /dev/sdc1
 TARGET SOURCEFSTYPE OPTIONS
 /test1 /dev/sdc1 xfsrw,relatime,attr2,inode64,noquota
 /test2 /dev/sdc1 xfsrw,relatime,attr2,inode64,noquota
 wix@dgwicks:~$
 wix@dgwicks:~$ s mount -v /dev/sdc1 /work-1
 mount: /dev/sdc1 mounted on /work-1.
 wix@dgwicks:~$ findmnt /dev/sdc1
 TARGET  SOURCEFSTYPE OPTIONS
 /test1  /dev/sdc1 xfsrw,relatime,attr2,inode64,noquota
 /test2  /dev/sdc1 xfsrw,relatime,attr2,inode64,noquota
 /work-1 /dev/sdc1 xfsrw,relatime,attr2,inode64,noquota
 wix@dgwicks:~$

Do you have some environment variable set or something in an 
ini or rc file that makes mount behave in a more strict way 
than standard?


No, I don't look at fstab every time I reboot. Just when I 
get things like failed mounts. In which case seeing that 
note will remind me what to look at/for.


Regards,
Dennis

Re: Systemd start that won't stop

[Sven Joachim]

On 2019-08-09 13:53 -0400, Curt Howland wrote:

> On 8/9/19, Curt Howland  wrote:
>> Hi. New Buster install.
>> [ ***] A start job is running for Hold until boot process finishes (2h
>> 54m 38s / no limit)
>
> Those asterisks are also red, and moving left to right, the same as
> seen during shutdown when something won't politely die.
>
> Only two things look interesting to me under "list units::
> # systemctl list-units
> getty@tty1.serviceloaded inactive
> dead  start Getty on tty1
> plymouth-quit-wait.serviceloaded activating
> start start Hold until boot process f
>
> Since tty1 would be the console, it makes sense that it would be dead.
> I have no idea what a "plymouth" is.

So you probably have no idea why it is installed in the first place?
Just curious, because there is a huge rise for plymouth in the number of
popcon submissions[1] since the Buster release, and I wonder why.

Cheers,
   Sven


1. https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=plymouth

Re: mount weirdness

[Dennis Wicks]

Curt wrote on 8/8/19 3:41 AM:

On 2019-08-08, Curt  wrote:

On 2019-08-05, Dennis Wicks  wrote:



So anyway, I typed in "sudo mount /dev/sdb2 /wa1" and it
seemed to finish successfully, but "ls /wa1" indicated that
in fact it had not. Nothing mounted on wa1! Many other tests
told me the same thing. "umount /wa1" said "not mounted"!


Would this be the result if /dev/sdb2 were already mounted (i.e. nothing?).

Many other tests. What about 'mount' from an xterm to see what's mounted
and what ain't and where?

Did you show your /etc/fstab file (cut and paste)? If so, I must've missed
it.

BTW, what's with the exclamation points? Makes you seem enthusiastic.

;-)



Oh, and I forgot: the relevant logs might be clueful and relevant
and of course should be explored for relevant clues.


Tell me what logs and how to view them.

Re: mount weirdness

[Dennis Wicks]

Curt wrote on 8/8/19 3:19 AM:

On 2019-08-05, Dennis Wicks  wrote:



So anyway, I typed in "sudo mount /dev/sdb2 /wa1" and it
seemed to finish successfully, but "ls /wa1" indicated that
in fact it had not. Nothing mounted on wa1! Many other tests
told me the same thing. "umount /wa1" said "not mounted"!


Would this be the result if /dev/sdb2 were already mounted (i.e. nothing?).
System does not care if device is already mounted somewhere 
else.





Many other tests. What about 'mount' from an xterm to see what's mounted
and what ain't and where?

Did you show your /etc/fstab file (cut and paste)? If so, I must've missed
it.

Yep. Sometime back.


BTW, what's with the exclamation points? Makes you seem enthusiastic.

Nope. Surprised!


;-)

Re: Systemd start that won't stop

[Étienne Mollier]

Curt Howland, on 2019-08-09:
> On 8/9/19, Curt Howland  wrote:
> > Hi. New Buster install.
> > [ ***] A start job is running for Hold until boot process finishes (2h
> > 54m 38s / no limit)
>
> Those asterisks are also red, and moving left to right, the same as
> seen during shutdown when something won't politely die.

Just like the scanner in "Knight Rider", I see the picture.

> Only two things look interesting to me under "list units::
> # systemctl list-units
> getty@tty1.serviceloaded inactive
> dead  start Getty on tty1
> plymouth-quit-wait.serviceloaded activating
> start start Hold until boot process f

This Plymouth thing is ringing me some bells, I'm almost certain
it has already been mentioned not very long ago, but I'm not
sure where or when.

What is the output of the following command?

$ sudo systemctl status plymouth-quit-wait

> Since tty1 would be the console, it makes sense that it would be dead.
> I have no idea what a "plymouth" is.

It is supposed to be some sort of graphical boot screen.  I just
tried it on my Buster machine, but the only notable difference
that appeared. was that now I have asterisks when typing in the
passphrase of my ciphered drive.  I'm not even certain this is
related.

> dmesg showed nothing that looked wrong.
>
> There is no problem with partition space.

Good, I believe we can rule out the hardware side for now.

Kind regards,
-- 
Étienne Mollier 
   5ab1 4edf 63bb ccff 8b54 2fa9 59da 56fe fff3 882d




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Re: [OT] Helpful attitude

[Brian]

On Fri 09 Aug 2019 at 09:57:00 -0400, The Wanderer wrote:

> On 2019-08-09 at 09:46, John Hasler wrote:
> 
> > Étienne writes:
> > 
> >> ...profanity...
> > 
> > Profanity is a matter of context.  As used in this discussion "shit"
> > is just a synonym for "manure".
> 
> To be pedantic, "shit" isn't profanity in the first place; it's
> vulgarity.
> 
> Profanity deals with matters religious.
> 
> Obscenity deals with matters sexual.
> 
> Vulgarity deals with matters involving other bodily functions, i.e.,
> primarily matters scatological.
> 
> I think I may vaguely recall having once identified an umbrella term
> which covers all three (beyond just "foul language" or similar), but
> just offhand I can't think what it might have been.

"bad manners" or "inconsiderate behaviour" could jog your memory.

As a user on -devel said today:

  More verbose: I used the f* word before and i will continue to
  do so.

"Put that in your pipe and smoke it" is an interpretation of this
pre-emptive sally.

(Apologies for the reference to a noxious, anti-social and harmful
habit. :) ).

-- 
Brian.

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Reco]

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 01:16:49PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 19:59:34 +0300
> Reco  wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 06:16:21PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> > > This one was very appealing 
> > > https://www.amazon.de/DMC-Taiwan-Industrial-Networking-Processor/dp/B07T3TWYLJ/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&keywords=acrosser&qid=1561237800&s=gateway&sr=8-11
> > 
> > $430 for a router? Surely you're kidding.
> > 
> > This one is five times cheaper *and* it can run Debian or openwrt:
> > 
> > https://www.amazon.com/Linksys-Dual-Band-Wireless-Gigabit-WRT1200AC/dp/B00UVN20T0/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=linksys+wrt+1200&qid=1565369861&s=gateway&sr=8-2
> 
> When you say five times cheaper, I gather you're talking about the
> prices for used units, in which case it's not really an
> apples-to-apples comparison. At least when I checked, the new units on
> Amazon start at $190.

I stand corrected. It's two times cheaper for new ones.

Reco

Re: Systemd start that won't stop

[Curt Howland]

On 8/9/19, Curt Howland  wrote:
> Hi. New Buster install.
> [ ***] A start job is running for Hold until boot process finishes (2h
> 54m 38s / no limit)

Those asterisks are also red, and moving left to right, the same as
seen during shutdown when something won't politely die.

Only two things look interesting to me under "list units::
# systemctl list-units
getty@tty1.serviceloaded inactive
dead  start Getty on tty1
plymouth-quit-wait.serviceloaded activating
start start Hold until boot process f

Since tty1 would be the console, it makes sense that it would be dead.
I have no idea what a "plymouth" is.

dmesg showed nothing that looked wrong.

There is no problem with partition space.

Curt-

Re: mount weirdness

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

David Wright wrote:
> it appears that any subsequent mount commands have to
> agree explicitly with the earlier choice. Are there other, similar
> factors involved in the OP's case…

Ah yes.

I was similarly confused by my system's behavior on double mount
and the fact that i remember to have needed mount -o loop for mounting
two different ISO 9660 sessions on the same DVD.

It seems that identical multi-mounts actually work like links to the
same filesystem:

  # mount /dev/sdc2 /mnt/fat
  # mount /dev/sdc2 /mnt/fat2
  # echo hallo >/mnt/fat/x
  # cat /mnt/fat/x
  hallo
  # cat /mnt/fat2/x
  hallo


Greg Wooledge wrote:
> The disappearance of one of the mounts from "df" output also tells me
> that, if nothing else, "df" is not prepared to handle this situation.

Or it avoids intentionally to represent one mounted filesystem as two.
The code starting at
  https://sources.debian.org/src/coreutils/8.30-3/src/df.c/#L688
looks like considerations for possibly doing one of:
  /* Discard mount entry for existing device.  */
  /* Discard mount entry currently being processed.  */

-

But again, this is a deviation from the problem.

Why does mount fail silently ?
Why is bad luck attached only to the mount directory path /wa1 ?

(Is the problem bound to mount(8) or does it sit in mount(2) ?)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Server hardware advice.

[John Hasler]

$430 is way above my budget.  "Linksys" and "Wireless" are both
negatives.  Maybe, if I could get it for $10 at a yard sale...
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: How free is Debian

[John Hasler]

t writes:
> There are many countries where such (so-called "shrink-wrap licenses",
> because you have to tear the package open to discover it) aren't
> legally binding.

A true shrink-wrap "license" is one that is visible and readable through
the transparent shrink-wrap package.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Celejar]

On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 19:59:34 +0300
Reco  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 06:16:21PM +0200, deloptes wrote:

...

> > This one was very appealing 
> > https://www.amazon.de/DMC-Taiwan-Industrial-Networking-Processor/dp/B07T3TWYLJ/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&keywords=acrosser&qid=1561237800&s=gateway&sr=8-11
> 
> $430 for a router? Surely you're kidding.
> 
> This one is five times cheaper *and* it can run Debian or openwrt:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Linksys-Dual-Band-Wireless-Gigabit-WRT1200AC/dp/B00UVN20T0/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=linksys+wrt+1200&qid=1565369861&s=gateway&sr=8-2

When you say five times cheaper, I gather you're talking about the
prices for used units, in which case it's not really an
apples-to-apples comparison. At least when I checked, the new units on
Amazon start at $190.

[But I run OpenWrt on a TP-Link AC-2600, which I purchased several years
ago (used / refurbished) on eBay for about $50-$55, and are currently
available there for as little as $73 (less if you take a unit missing
antennas, etc. ...)]

Celejar

Re: How free is Debian

[Alessandro Vesely]

On Thu 08/Aug/2019 13:50:40 +0200 John Hasler wrote:

> tomas writes:
>> This is one of those cases: if you're using a piece of non-free
>> software, you should know about it, and you should know which buy
>> decision led to it (so you can take that into account at your next buy
>> decision).
> 
> There is also a practical reason to keep non-free for the benefit of
> downstream distributions, CD makers, etc.  Some of the licenses on stuff
> in non-free make it ok for Debian to distribute the stuff but attempt to
> place restrictions on what recipients can do with it.  As long as you
> stick to Main you need only read the DFSG to know what your
> redistribution rights are.  As soon as you go into Non-free you have to
> study each license.
> 
> This can even hit end-users.  Non-free licenses can contain clauses
> barring "commercial use" (without defining the term) and other similar
> restrictions.  This package is not in Debian, but I recall a "free" text
> editor that was distributed on the Net back in the last century that
> barred use by the South African police.  It would have qualified for
> inclusion in Non-free.


Perhaps we'd need an Almost-free, or Semantically-free category in
order to distinguish blind redistributablity from actual
devil-may-be-here stuff.  I'm thinking GNU doc in particular...


Best
Ale

Re: Server hardware advice.

[Reco]

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 06:16:21PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> John Hasler wrote:
> 
> >  Steven Mainor writes:
> >  > It looks like there are some ESPRESSOBIN v7s on Amazon right now.
> > 
> > Excellent.  When I looked yesterday Amazon said "None available".  I
> > think I'll order one today.  The ancient Dell I'm now using as a
> > router/firewall is getting flaky.  I've wanted to replace it some time
> > but I want something ARM-based.  This is the first suitable board I've
> > seen that has dual ethernet.  I'll stick it in a box along with the
> > modem, the switch, and a power supply.
> 
> This one was very appealing 
> https://www.amazon.de/DMC-Taiwan-Industrial-Networking-Processor/dp/B07T3TWYLJ/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&keywords=acrosser&qid=1561237800&s=gateway&sr=8-11

$430 for a router? Surely you're kidding.

This one is five times cheaper *and* it can run Debian or openwrt:

https://www.amazon.com/Linksys-Dual-Band-Wireless-Gigabit-WRT1200AC/dp/B00UVN20T0/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=linksys+wrt+1200&qid=1565369861&s=gateway&sr=8-2

Reco

Re: [OT] Helpful attitude

[Étienne Mollier]

John Hasler, on 2019-08-09:
> The Wanderer writes:
> > Profanity deals with matters religious.
>
> Originally, yes.  The definitions of all three words have been broadened
> in common use so as to make them synonyms to most people.

That is without mentioning translations.  The idea carried by
the word "profanity" according to the sense here over does not
seem to have a matching translation in my mother tongue.  On one
hand "profane words" seems pretty weak, and "blasphemy" on the
other hand seems a wee bit too strong.

The encyclopedia seem to document this sense to be older and
literal, so I guess the more general sense is in common use:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profanity


> Étienne writes:
> > Interesting!  If agreement there is on this definition, then this
> > would explain the point about illegality on radio waves in various
> > countries.
>
> Yes.  In the USA profanity (in the original sense) is not illegal on
> radio because of the establishment of religion clause.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_dirty_words

Somehow, it is kind of reassuring to read that:

“The FCC regulations regarding "fleeting" use of
 expletives were ruled unconstitutionally vague by a
 three-judge panel of the U.S. 2nd Circuit Court of
 Appeals in New York on July 13, 2010, as they violated
 the First Amendment due to their possible effects
 regarding free speech.”

Kind regards,
-- 
Étienne Mollier 
   5ab1 4edf 63bb ccff 8b54 2fa9 59da 56fe fff3 882d




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Re: mount weirdness

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 11:29:17AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> Whether I like the ability to mount in this manner, I'm with Greg at the
> moment. Obviously I missed any discussion on the topic ~15 years ago,
> so I haven't seen any benefits spelled out. In any case, perhaps a
> warning in kern.log rather than total silence?

The disappearance of one of the mounts from "df" output also tells me
that, if nothing else, "df" is not prepared to handle this situation.
I wonder what other userspace commands might be making assumptions
about things that are no longer true.

I also wonder whether this is a bug in df.

Re: Systemd start that won't stop

[Étienne Mollier]

Kenneth Parker, on 2019-08-09:
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2019, 11:30 AM Curt Howland  wrote:
> > Hi. New Buster install.
> >
> > While X11 is working just fine, the console is unusable, due to a
> > startup message that never stops:
> >
> > [ ***] A start job is running for Hold until boot process finishes (2h 54m 
> > 38s / no limit)
> >
> > This goes on until the laptop is shut down.
> >
> > How do I find the errant process? The start-up messages fly by, but I
> > don't see any failures, or any indication of what process it is that
> > won't stop starting.

Good day

You may be able to get a few information out of the following,
maybe see what's on hold:

$ sudo systemctl list-units

But it is the first time I hear about this specific "start job"
"running for Hold" behaviour.  I'm not sure about what to look
at.  A blind shot at the following might bring some additional
information too:

$ sudo journalctl -xe

In case you were encountering some hardware issue (but I doubt
so for the moment), perhaps a look at the following could be
welcome:

$ sudo dmesg

And of course, from Kenneth:
> Are any of your File Systems out of space?

Kind regards,
-- 
Étienne Mollier 
   5ab1 4edf 63bb ccff 8b54 2fa9 59da 56fe fff3 882d




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Re: mount weirdness

[David Wright]

Sorry to cause the thread to "wander", but some of us are trying to
replicate aspects of the OP's problem, which necessitates explaining
any differences in the results being obtained.

On Thu 08 Aug 2019 at 14:14:25 (-0400), Michael Stone wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 08, 2019 at 12:09:11PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > On Thu 08 Aug 2019 at 10:56:46 (-0400), Michael Stone wrote:
> > > On Thu, Aug 08, 2019 at 09:04:00AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > > > wren 08:50:11 ~# lsblk -f | grep sda7
> > > > ├─sda7   ext4swan07  
> > > > 4a4e352f-2180-4083-92b4-f46e4e0104b4 /wrenbk
> > > > wren 08:50:26 ~# mkdir /wa1 /somethingelse
> > > > wren 08:50:49 ~# mount /dev/sda7 /somethingelse
> > > > mount: /dev/sda7 is already mounted or /somethingelse busy
> > > >   /dev/sda7 is already mounted on /wrenbk
> > > > 32 wren 08:51:16 ~# mount /dev/sda7 /wa1
> > > > mount: /dev/sda7 is already mounted or /wa1 busy
> > > >   /dev/sda7 is already mounted on /wrenbk
> > > > 32 wren 08:51:31 ~# rmdir /wa1 /somethingelse
> > > > wren 08:51:53 ~#
> > > 
> > > It's already been said repeatedly that you should post the bottom of
> > > dmesg output because kernel mount errors show up there but not in the
> > > output of the mount command.
> > 
> > I've plenty of mount errors, which you've quoted, so I think you might
> > be addressing somebody else. Or have I missed something? But anyway,
> > dmesg's tail is attached, with a timecheck from earlier in the file so
> > that you can exercise forensic skills in tying the times above to
> > those in dmesg.
> 
> No, I'm addressing you. It's very common for mount to say something
> like "can't do that" but you need a kernel error message to explain
> why because the kernel mount API isn't verbose. (As I said in a
> previous message.) Example:
> 
> # mount -o norecovery,loop test.img /mnt
> mount: /mnt: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/loop0, missing 
> codepage or helper program, or other error.
> # dmesg | tail -n 1
> [268039.035599] XFS (loop0): no-recovery mounts must be read-only.
> 
> In this case the dmesg output doesn't add anything, but it's generally
> good for completeness.

Well I wasn't aware that dmesg specifically added anything to what I
see as a matter of course: I have an xconsole at the foot of the page
and an xterm running tail -F /var/log/kern.log in my diagnostics
viewport.

But your incidental choice of example has nudged me in the right
direction; seeing the string "read-only", I tried:

# mkdir /somethingelse
# mount /dev/sda7 /somethingelse
mount: /dev/sda7 is already mounted or /somethingelse busy
   /dev/sda7 is already mounted on /wrenbk
# mount -o ro /dev/sda7 /somethingelse
# 

and bingo. /wrenbk is the backup installation on this laptop.
I normally mount them readonly so that I can't accidentally interfere
with them. So it appears that any subsequent mount commands have to
agree explicitly with the earlier choice. Are there other, similar
factors involved in the OP's case…

Looking at the OP's fstab, regardless of what worked in the past,
I would reorganise it into a more systematic order. I got caught out
when systemd came out, because my fstab had two entries for the
same mountpoint. SystemV just churns through fstab carrying out
its mount, whereas systemd reads the whole file (and regurgitates it?)
before it mounts anything.

So what's the explanation for entries such as these:

/wa3/Swap4   none swap sw,pri=100,nofail,x-systemd.device-timeout=60
/wa1/Swap5   none swap sw,pri=100,nofail,x-systemd.device-timeout=60
/wa2/Swap6   none swap sw,pri=100,nofail,x-systemd.device-timeout=60
/pvt04/Swap7 none swap sw,pri=100,nofail,x-systemd.device-timeout=60

UUID=20173008-…   /wa11  xfs defaults,nofail,x-systemd.device-timeout=20 ¹
UUID=9092610b-…   /wa2   xfs defaults,nofail,x-systemd.device-timeout=60
LABEL=Work-Area-3 /wa3   xfs defaults,nofail,x-systemd.device-timeout=60
UUID=fdbb6809-…   /pvt04 xfs defaults,nofail,x-systemd.device-timeout=60

¹ was /wa1 originally.

Is it intended that the "General work areas" hide these swap files,
or is this just the way the OP's fstab grew? It's not clear to me
what the semantics for systemd.mount are, but a first reading
suggests that it contradicts fstab.

And rereading the first OP, what is Debian 10 bullseye?
Is all this just an ephemeral bug that will disappear next week?

> > But the 2-1 vote wasn't whether error messages were emitted, but
> > whether the system should mount an already-mounted partition onto
> > another mount point. I get error messages and the mount fails.
> > Others get no error messages (though they haven't demonstrated
> > the lack) and a successful mount, so currently I'm in a minority
> > of one.
> 
> That's not a matter for voting, it's something that was implemented
> years ago, in the 2.4 kernel:

Sorry, badly expressed: by "voting", I just meant OP & Greg (2) report
successful mounts, and I (1) an error message.

Whether I like the ability to mount in thi

Re: [OT] Helpful attitude

[deloptes]

The Wanderer wrote:

> To be pedantic, "shit" isn't profanity in the first place; it's
> vulgarity.
> 
> Profanity deals with matters religious.
> 
> Obscenity deals with matters sexual.
> 
> Vulgarity deals with matters involving other bodily functions, i.e.,
> primarily matters scatological.
> 
> I think I may vaguely recall having once identified an umbrella term
> which covers all three (beyond just "foul language" or similar), but
> just offhand I can't think what it might have been.
> 

I do not know which meaning of the word this wise man had in mind, but the
metaphor to manure is not bad.

Even in agriculture you need light and water and in the case I am not sure
if 500 is enough to give live to something useful. Instead of a big nice
red tomato OP may get a salad of old tomatoes :D

Re: Server hardware advice.

[deloptes]

John Hasler wrote:

>  Steven Mainor writes:
>  > It looks like there are some ESPRESSOBIN v7s on Amazon right now.
> 
> Excellent.  When I looked yesterday Amazon said "None available".  I
> think I'll order one today.  The ancient Dell I'm now using as a
> router/firewall is getting flaky.  I've wanted to replace it some time
> but I want something ARM-based.  This is the first suitable board I've
> seen that has dual ethernet.  I'll stick it in a box along with the
> modem, the switch, and a power supply.

This one was very appealing 
https://www.amazon.de/DMC-Taiwan-Industrial-Networking-Processor/dp/B07T3TWYLJ/ref=sr_1_11?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&keywords=acrosser&qid=1561237800&s=gateway&sr=8-11

or this one
https://eshop.aaeon.com/desktop-network-appliance-fws-2276.html

I was recently looking in the same direction

Re: How free is Debian

[John Hasler]

Alessandro Vesely writes:
> I had always considered those must-reply-yes questions akin to
> extortion.  My answer reflects the only possibility to use something I
> bought, not my free thought.

If the contract is presented before the sale is completed they are not
different from "You must agree to pay us the stated price".  If the
contract is presented afterward they are bluffing.

Determining at what point the sale is completed may not be trivial,
though.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: How free is Debian

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 05:59:26PM +0200, Alessandro Vesely wrote:
> On Thu 08/Aug/2019 15:02:38 +0200 John Hasler wrote:
> 
> > These sorts of "licenses" are actually attempts at a civil contract.
> > They really have nothing to do with patent or copyright law.  A civil
> > contract requires agreement in advance, though.  
> 
> 
> I had always considered those must-reply-yes questions akin to
> extortion.  My answer reflects the only possibility to use something I
> bought, not my free thought.

There are many countries where such (so-called "shrink-wrap licenses",
because you have to tear the package open to discover it) aren't
legally binding.

Cheers
-- t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Systemd start that won't stop

[Kenneth Parker]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019, 11:30 AM Curt Howland  wrote:

> Hi. New Buster install.
>
> While X11 is working just fine, the console is unusable, due to a
> startup message that never stops:
>
> [ ***] A start job is running for Hold until boot process finishes (2h
> 54m 38s / no limit)
>
> This goes on until the laptop is shut down.
>
> How do I find the errant process? The start-up messages fly by, but I
> don't see any failures, or any indication of what process it is that
> won't stop starting.
>

Are any of your File Systems out of space?

Good luck, by the way.

Kenneth Parker

>

Re: How free is Debian

[Alessandro Vesely]

On Thu 08/Aug/2019 15:02:38 +0200 John Hasler wrote:

> These sorts of "licenses" are actually attempts at a civil contract.
> They really have nothing to do with patent or copyright law.  A civil
> contract requires agreement in advance, though.  


I had always considered those must-reply-yes questions akin to
extortion.  My answer reflects the only possibility to use something I
bought, not my free thought.


Best
Ale

Systemd start that won't stop

[Curt Howland]

Hi. New Buster install.

While X11 is working just fine, the console is unusable, due to a
startup message that never stops:

[ ***] A start job is running for Hold until boot process finishes (2h
54m 38s / no limit)

This goes on until the laptop is shut down.

How do I find the errant process? The start-up messages fly by, but I
don't see any failures, or any indication of what process it is that
won't stop starting.

Curt-

Re: What drivers do I need for a Nvidia geforce GTX 1660 Ti to work?

[Sven Joachim]

On 2019-08-08 18:06 -0400, hobie of RMN wrote:

> How about GeForce 210...?  Will the nouveau kernel module work for that or
> are non-free drivers needed, on Debian 10?

The GeForce 210 has been around for many years, and nouveau should work fine
with it, modulo bugs.

Cheers,
   Sven

Re: [OT] Helpful attitude

[John Hasler]

The Wanderer writes:
> Profanity deals with matters religious.

Originally, yes.  The definitions of all three words have been broadened
in common use so as to make them synonyms to most people.

Étienne writes:
> Interesting!  If agreement there is on this definition, then this
> would explain the point about illegality on radio waves in various
> countries.

Yes.  In the USA profanity (in the original sense) is not illegal on
radio because of the establishment of religion clause.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_dirty_words
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: How free is Debian

[Celejar]

On Fri, 09 Aug 2019 08:51:15 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:

> Celejar writes:
> > It does? Here's what the "Debian Position on Software Patents" says:
> 
> > Debian will not knowingly distribute software encumbered by patents;
> > Debian contributors should not package or distribute software they know
> > to infringe a patent.
> 
> The key word is "knowingly".  If you believe that a Debian package
> infringes a patent of yours you have to speak up.

You've snipped the context. You wrote:

> statutory damages as with copyright).  Thus while there is no statutory
> exemption for personal use there is an effective one.  Illustrative is
> how Debian deals with software patents: it ignores them.

So no, Debian does not "ignore" patents. Perhaps what you meant to say
was that Debian does not take the initiative of investigating whether a
given package infringes on any patents. And I still don't see how this
is illstrative of an effective exemption for personal use.

Celejar

Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 09 August 2019 07:59:07 Bob Crochelt wrote:

> Gene,
> I’m scheduled for some heart rewiring myself. Good luck to the both of
> us! Bob Crochelt

My heart guy is out of the country till around Sept 1. So I'm takeing an 
extra half a 7.5gr warfarin pill a day to ward off another 
clot/blockage. I've been taking the 7.5 since I survived a pulmonary 
embolism about 5 years back but recent tests earlier this week had the 
clot time below 2 and thats not good, needs more rat poison. If I get to 
feeling bad I'll yell for a ride to Mon General in Morgantown about 60 
miles north who has several heart guys on staff.  So all I'm doing is 
the dishes and cooking for the two of us.  Shop work is on hold.

I'll have to get the next door neighbor to do that while I'm gone in that 
event as the missus isn't ambulatory any more. Good neighbors, we share 
wedding anniversaries, 30 for us on Dec 2nd, 41 for them. 

Pulmonary embolisms aren't fun, typical survival rate is less than 2%.  
Sorta funny, when I was in Mon Gen before, thats a teaching hospital, 
and the doc in charge of me that time always had an entourage of interns 
along showing them that surviveing a P-E was possible. Made me feel like 
a pet purple hamster or something. :)

Putting in heparin by the gallon, I was up to make water at about 20 
minute intervals 24/7. Very poor sleep, and the room was too cold but I 
jiggered the stat to fix that. One of the nurses started to fix it and I 
flat told her if she was going to set it back down she could find me 
blankets big enough and warm enough. What they had weren't much bigger 
than a cloth diaper. 8 days. First time ever in a hospital.

I lost nearly 20 lbs by the time I was home for 3 or 4 days & had a 
chance to get rid of it.  Legs blown up like phone poles.

I had a pacemaker installed back in January, pulse was in the low 30's 
when I walked in the ER door & said I thought I needed one, getting a 
bit woozy in between heartbeats. They didn't argue with me a bit. I was 
a "live one with an AARP plan F policy". ;-)

Good luck with yours too Bob.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Helpful attitude

[Richard Owlett]

On 08/08/2019 03:12 PM, Curt wrote:

On 2019-08-08, Dan Ritter  wrote:


I think you are missing the point: When someone asks a question on this
list, then that someone gets to decide what the question is.


To which Curt replied:


The questioner gets to decide what the question is, and the
answerer gets to decide what the answer is.



The questioner then gets to make two other distinctions:
  a. is the answer responsive?
 [e.g. when asking about "Wireless home LAN" I was told to
   use Ethernet]
  b. is it feasible for the questioner to actually implement?
 [e.g. I had rejected Ethernet {after purchasing a switch}
   when I realized physical constraints prevented running
   cables. *THAT* specifically prompted the wireless topic.]

Dan Ritter also said:
  
Sure. But they also bear the burden of communicating precisely

what it is that they are asking for, and accepting that some
responses will offer advice rather than answers. Some of that
advice is even valuable!


True! Even when sub-threads have drifted parsecs OFF TOPIC ;/

Re: [OT] Helpful attitude

[Étienne Mollier]

The Wanderer, on 2019-08-09:
> On 2019-08-09 at 09:46, John Hasler wrote:
>
> > Étienne writes:
> >
> >> ...profanity...
> >
> > Profanity is a matter of context.  As used in this discussion "shit"
> > is just a synonym for "manure".
>
> To be pedantic, "shit" isn't profanity in the first place; it's
> vulgarity.
>
> Profanity deals with matters religious.

Interesting!  If agreement there is on this definition, then
this would explain the point about illegality on radio waves in
various countries.

Kind regards,
-- 
Étienne Mollier 
   5ab1 4edf 63bb ccff 8b54 2fa9 59da 56fe fff3 882d




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Re: [OT] Helpful attitude

[Larry Martell]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 9:57 AM The Wanderer  wrote:
>
> On 2019-08-09 at 09:46, John Hasler wrote:
>
> > Étienne writes:
> >
> >> ...profanity...
> >
> > Profanity is a matter of context.  As used in this discussion "shit"
> > is just a synonym for "manure".
>
> To be pedantic, "shit" isn't profanity in the first place; it's
> vulgarity.
>
> Profanity deals with matters religious.
>
> Obscenity deals with matters sexual.
>
> Vulgarity deals with matters involving other bodily functions, i.e.,
> primarily matters scatological.
>
> I think I may vaguely recall having once identified an umbrella term
> which covers all three (beyond just "foul language" or similar), but
> just offhand I can't think what it might have been.

“There are no bad words. Bad thoughts. Bad intentions, and words.”
― George Carlin

Re: [OT] Helpful attitude

[The Wanderer]

On 2019-08-09 at 09:46, John Hasler wrote:

> Étienne writes:
> 
>> ...profanity...
> 
> Profanity is a matter of context.  As used in this discussion "shit"
> is just a synonym for "manure".

To be pedantic, "shit" isn't profanity in the first place; it's
vulgarity.

Profanity deals with matters religious.

Obscenity deals with matters sexual.

Vulgarity deals with matters involving other bodily functions, i.e.,
primarily matters scatological.

I think I may vaguely recall having once identified an umbrella term
which covers all three (beyond just "foul language" or similar), but
just offhand I can't think what it might have been.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Re: How free is Debian

[John Hasler]

Celejar writes:
> It does? Here's what the "Debian Position on Software Patents" says:

> Debian will not knowingly distribute software encumbered by patents;
> Debian contributors should not package or distribute software they know
> to infringe a patent.

The key word is "knowingly".  If you believe that a Debian package
infringes a patent of yours you have to speak up.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Étienne Mollier]

tomás, on 2019-08-09:
> On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 12:24:41PM +0200, Étienne Mollier wrote:

[...]

> >My message was actually addressed to anyone
> > on the list, especially some writers with stronger language than
> > usual, but I can't recall you being part of this set.  Yes, I
> > have found an issue; yes, it appears in your post; no, it is not
> > your authoring.  Perhaps I unwillingly targeted you by quoting a
> > part of your message, but this was not intentional.  Should it
> > reoccur, the message would just contain the paragraph leading to
> > the link, no quote.  Are you fine with that, or do I completely
> > miss the point?
>
> Somewhat, but in a different way :-)

Once, a wise woman told that textual messages carry around
thirty percent of the meaning intended in the first place.  It
looks like this holds quite true in this exchange then.  :)

> See, as far as I am concerned, your post was fine, so when you
> feel like that, just do it again. And if you catch me behaving
> as I shouldn't, by all means, call me out on that.

Sure will do, although I will probably stick to private messages
first, if that ends up being necessary.

> > Now thinking twice, the so called wise man which authored the
> > very first profanity may not be subscribed to the list though...
> > :)
>
> I tend to be a bit more lenient than you: this kind of profanities
> don't seem to me too hard: although I'd prefer them to be rare
> (for the benefit of those who might feel pain at reading them),
> I think that some level of tolerance is necessary in such a
> big mailing list. The OP didn't insult anyone personally, and
> (s)he is known to have a rather curt and strong language. OTOH,
> (s)he has many helpful and to-the-point posts here.

You are plain right (unless some people are currently reading
this list with radio packets in countries where documented
limitations in the language do apply, I suppose).  I also must
acknowledge the quality of the participation of the writer you
mention, for I have been subscribed myself long enough to
witness it.

Somehow the profanity this time turned back against its author
in an embarrassing way, and that reminded me about the code of
conduct on this topic.  Rereading my initial post, I believe
that I sound exactly like an overreacting puritan.  Crap, I
should've kept that formulation with the smiley, present in the
original draft...

> That's why I decided to take the edge off that thing in a
> humorous way by reminding us of the fact that agriculture's
> main business model is turning manure into tasty aubergines;
> so perhaps that wise man wasn't totally right after all...

Indeed, aubergines are tasty, and I was reading an interesting
article about reintroduction of horses and oxen in agriculture,
and how it could participate in reducing the energy cost of
having to produce manure artificially on one side, and reduce
the dependency on fuel for tractors on the other side.
Obviously, as such that would be at the expense of food
productivity; except perhaps if we consider the food thrown
afterwards instead of being eaten, but I digress:

https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/04/horses-agricult.html

(Note that solar.lowtechmagazine.com is hosted on an SBC, if it
 can relate to the initial thread.  It definitely does not run
 Nextcloud though.)

> So don't worry. All is well. My question was really genuine,
> not a contorted way of defense or something.

No worries then, that is a relief!  :D

Kind regards,
-- 
Étienne Mollier 
   5ab1 4edf 63bb ccff 8b54 2fa9 59da 56fe fff3 882d




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Re: [OT] Helpful attitude

[John Hasler]

Étienne writes:
> ...profanity...

Profanity is a matter of context.  As used in this discussion "shit" is
just a synonym for "manure".
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Server hardware advice.

[John Hasler]

 Steven Mainor writes:
 > It looks like there are some ESPRESSOBIN v7s on Amazon right now.

Excellent.  When I looked yesterday Amazon said "None available".  I
think I'll order one today.  The ancient Dell I'm now using as a
router/firewall is getting flaky.  I've wanted to replace it some time
but I want something ARM-based.  This is the first suitable board I've
seen that has dual ethernet.  I'll stick it in a box along with the
modem, the switch, and a power supply.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: No System Tray Detected On This System...

[Brad Rogers]

On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 13:00:13 - (UTC)
"tb75252"  wrote:

Hello tb75252,

>Thanks, Brad!

YW.  By the sound of it, the outcome was successful.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
Never much liked playing there anyway
Banned From The Roxy - Crass


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Re: .uvc WebCam Data

[Martin McCormick]

Dan Ritter  writes:
> Martin was just sense-of-wondering at modern technology. I'm
> guessing his eventual project will snap frames for OCR on
> demand, then send the output through a braille terminal or
> a speech synthesizer.

Our messages basically crossed due to the time lag here
between fetches of mail from our ISP but you said it much better
than I did.

I have no idea at all what this project is going to look
like when it is done but it will be something like what you
describe.  Snap a picture.  Try to evaluate it as quickly as
possible.  Snap another and soforth.

The ideal solution would make the person using it feel like
he or she is on a serial console without this layer of complexity
and is simply interacting with the screen.

The reality is that it will more likely feel like what it
is, a work-around that barely solves the problem, better than
nothing but not much.

If it lets me reconfigure the occasional wayward BIOS on
an old system without having to bother my dear wife or a friend,
I will call it good enough. If we let perfect kill good enough,
nothing ends up getting done.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ

I will have been WB5AGZ for 50 years in October.

Re: [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 12:24:41PM +0200, Étienne Mollier wrote:

[...]

> Good morning tomás,
> 
> Sincere apologies if you took it personally,

No worries, I didn't. Not as an offense, by the least. No need
to apoligize.

>   I did not intend to
> target you at all.

Thing is, we all do stupid things without noticing, and from
past experience I know *I* do. But I'm willing to learn from
mistakes -- thus my question.

>My message was actually addressed to anyone
> on the list, especially some writers with stronger language than
> usual, but I can't recall you being part of this set.  Yes, I
> have found an issue; yes, it appears in your post; no, it is not
> your authoring.  Perhaps I unwillingly targeted you by quoting a
> part of your message, but this was not intentional.  Should it
> reoccur, the message would just contain the paragraph leading to
> the link, no quote.  Are you fine with that, or do I completely
> miss the point?

Somewhat, but in a different way :-)

See, as far as I am concerned, your post was fine, so when you
feel like that, just do it again. And if you catch me behaving
as I shouldn't, by all means, call me out on that.

> Now thinking twice, the so called wise man which authored the
> very first profanity may not be subscribed to the list though...
> :)

I tend to be a bit more lenient than you: this kind of profanities
don't seem to me too hard: although I'd prefer them to be rare
(for the benefit of those who might feel pain at reading them),
I think that some level of tolerance is necessary in such a
big mailing list. The OP didn't insult anyone personally, and
(s)he is known to have a rather curt and strong language. OTOH,
(s)he has many helpful and to-the-point posts here.

That's why I decided to take the edge off that thing in a
humorous way by reminding us of the fact that agriculture's
main business model is turning manure into tasty aubergines;
so perhaps that wise man wasn't totally right after all...

So don't worry. All is well. My question was really genuine,
not a contorted way of defense or something.

Cheers
-- tomás


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Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Bob Crochelt]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019, at 03:15, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 08 August 2019 18:01:01 ghe wrote:
> 
> > On 8/8/19 4:39 AM, Kenneth Parker wrote:
> > > I also hear stories about people, using Raspberry Pi Systems as
> > > Servers.
> >
> > At least a 3+, on a T1, with a good UPS, well backed up, and with
> > clones of hardware and software near at hand. And running Debian.
> >
> > Under those conditions, they do just fine.
> 
> So does a 3+, running realtime stretch. Using a nearly 50 mhz spi 
> interface, its running 1400 lbs worth of 70 yo Sheldon lathe that's been 
> rebuilt with ball screws for micron precision, running the lathe quite 
> well but with sluggish video. Even that should be fixed in the next 
> month by switching to debian-arm buster, or a new raspian buster. The 
> biggest lag is me, I need to go get my ticker rebuilt.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
> - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
> 
> 
Gene,
I’m scheduled for some heart rewiring myself. Good luck to the both of us!
Bob Crochelt

Re: How free is Debian

[Celejar]

On Thu, 08 Aug 2019 19:05:03 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:

...

> Also realize that patent infringement is not a crime (in the USA).
> Government won't enforce your patent for you.  It is a tort, and is
> grounds for the patent owner to sue for actual damages (there are no
> statutory damages as with copyright).  Thus while there is no statutory
> exemption for personal use there is an effective one.  Illustrative is
> how Debian deals with software patents: it ignores them.

It does? Here's what the "Debian Position on Software Patents" says:

> Debian will not knowingly distribute software encumbered by patents;
> Debian contributors should not package or distribute software they know
> to infringe a patent.

https://www.debian.org/legal/patent

Celejar

Re: [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Étienne Mollier]

> On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 11:12:22AM +0200, Étienne Mollier wrote:
> > tomás, on 2019-08-09:
> > > (Yes, and there's some hidden message in my seemingly OT comment,
> > > but I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader ;-)
> >
> > Oh my ${DEITY}, once you see it, you cannot "un-see" it...
> >
> > It sounds like a good opportunity to recall the code of conduct
> > of the list; in addition to other items, it prohibits profanity:
> >
> > https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/
> >
> > Should this be observed more closely, this kind of situation
> > would probably not have happened.
>
> Now a genuine question (yes, sometimes I'm too dumb to understand
> subtle things -- that after having made a "subtle comment" myself:
> egg on my face).
>
> Have you found issue in my post? Let me know, then, if necessary
> bluntly, at your choice via the list or directly.
>
> Ready to learn. Yes, really: no irony or sarcasm.
>
> Cheers
> -- tomás

Good morning tomás,

Sincere apologies if you took it personally, I did not intend to
target you at all.  My message was actually addressed to anyone
on the list, especially some writers with stronger language than
usual, but I can't recall you being part of this set.  Yes, I
have found an issue; yes, it appears in your post; no, it is not
your authoring.  Perhaps I unwillingly targeted you by quoting a
part of your message, but this was not intentional.  Should it
reoccur, the message would just contain the paragraph leading to
the link, no quote.  Are you fine with that, or do I completely
miss the point?

Now thinking twice, the so called wise man which authored the
very first profanity may not be subscribed to the list though...
:)

Kind regards,
-- 
Étienne Mollier 
   5ab1 4edf 63bb ccff 8b54 2fa9 59da 56fe fff3 882d




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Re: Server hardware advice.

[Igor Cicimov]

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019, 3:35 PM Steven Mainor  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm looking for advice on how to build a home server with a primary focus
> on
> security. I plan to run nextcloud and a mail server that will serve 3 to 5
> people at most.
>
> My requirements are:
>
> A server setup that can be run with completely open source software and
> doesn't require any binaries to boot. I don't trust anything closed source
> for
> this particular project.
>
> A gigabit ethernet port.
>
> A USB3.0 port or SATA connector to attach storage to.
>
> Enough processor power and ram to run nextcloud and the mail server from
> an
> encrypted hard drive (LUKS) efficiently with moderate throughput saving
> and
> reading files from nextcloud.
>
> I would just build something x86 based but the amd/intel Platform Security
> Processor/IME stuff makes me nervous.
>
> So far I have been looking at single board computers like the ones listed
> here: https://wiki.debian.org/CheapServerBoxHardware#OSHW
>
> I like the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but I am not sure the processor will be
> enough
> to handle the overhead from an encrypted hard drive. I also don't like
> that it
> is only 32-bit since that will limit the file size nextcloud can handle as
> I
> understand it.
>
> Is there anything similar to the OLinuXino A20 LIME2 but more powerful or
> is
> there a better option I haven't read about yet?
>
> --
> Steven Mainor


Just grab one HP microserver NL36/40/54 series like this one
https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-ProLiant-Microserver-G8-G1610T-Server-12GB-EEC-Ram/223611463875
and forget about that SBC nonsense :-)

>

Re: [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[tomas]

On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 11:12:22AM +0200, Étienne Mollier wrote:
> tomás, on 2019-08-09:
> > (Yes, and there's some hidden message in my seemingly OT comment,
> > but I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader ;-)
> 
> Oh my ${DEITY}, once you see it, you cannot "un-see" it...
> 
> It sounds like a good opportunity to recall the code of conduct
> of the list; in addition to other items, it prohibits profanity:
> 
>   https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/
> 
> Should this be observed more closely, this kind of situation
> would probably not have happened.

Now a genuine question (yes, sometimes I'm too dumb to understand
subtle things -- that after having made a "subtle comment" myself:
egg on my face).

Have you found issue in my post? Let me know, then, if necessary
bluntly, at your choice via the list or directly.

Ready to learn. Yes, really: no irony or sarcasm.

Cheers
-- tomás


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Re: [OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Étienne Mollier]

tomás, on 2019-08-09:
> (Yes, and there's some hidden message in my seemingly OT comment,
> but I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader ;-)

Oh my ${DEITY}, once you see it, you cannot "un-see" it...

It sounds like a good opportunity to recall the code of conduct
of the list; in addition to other items, it prohibits profanity:

https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/

Should this be observed more closely, this kind of situation
would probably not have happened.

-- 
Étienne Mollier 
   5ab1 4edf 63bb ccff 8b54 2fa9 59da 56fe fff3 882d




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[OT] Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[tomas]

[...]

> No, 
> I am helping the OP. As one wise man said once: from shit you can make only
> shit [...]

This wise man didn't know about agriculture, then.

(Yes, and there's some hidden message in my seemingly OT comment,
but I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader ;-)

Nevermind, cheers
-- tomás


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Re: Helpful attitude (was: Server hardware advice.)

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 08 August 2019 18:01:01 ghe wrote:

> On 8/8/19 4:39 AM, Kenneth Parker wrote:
> > I also hear stories about people, using Raspberry Pi Systems as
> > Servers.
>
> At least a 3+, on a T1, with a good UPS, well backed up, and with
> clones of hardware and software near at hand. And running Debian.
>
> Under those conditions, they do just fine.

So does a 3+, running realtime stretch. Using a nearly 50 mhz spi 
interface, its running 1400 lbs worth of 70 yo Sheldon lathe that's been 
rebuilt with ball screws for micron precision, running the lathe quite 
well but with sluggish video. Even that should be fixed in the next 
month by switching to debian-arm buster, or a new raspian buster. The 
biggest lag is me, I need to go get my ticker rebuilt.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
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