Re: libvirt guest bridge configuration

[Lucio Crusca]

Il 19/09/20 00:54, Dan Ritter ha scritto:

auto eno1
iface eno1 manual

auto virbr10
iface virb10 inet static
   bridge_ports eno1
   bridge_stp off
   address 2.4.6.8
   netmask 255.255.255.224
   gateway 2.4.6.1

the bridge eats the eno1 interface.


Using that configuration it actually brings up eno1 with the correct IP 
address, but I have no bridge at all:


# ifconfig -a
eno1: flags=4163  mtu 1500
inet 2.4.6.8  netmask 255.255.255.224  broadcast 2.4.6.31
[...]

lo: flags=73  mtu 65536
inet 127.0.0.1  netmask 255.0.0.0
[...]

# brctl show
#

I'm puzzled: how does it manage to work if there's no bridge at all?

Re: Buster with MATE without systemd

[Patrick Bartek]

On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 10:23:15 +0300
Andrei POPESCU  wrote:

> On Mi, 16 sep 20, 10:32:14, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > 
> > Short answer?  Probably not.  systemd has become too pervasive a
> > dependency to do so.  It shouldn't be.  No other init system I know
> > of is.  
> 
> Funny how systemd is constantly "blamed" that *other* packages depend
> on it.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Andrei

I'm not laughing.  A lot of others aren't either.  And systemd isn't
really blamed per se, even though there are a lot of people who hate
it. It's the dependency to it that cause the problems. And it's not like
it's impossible to have Debian without those dependencies. Devuan is
proof of that.

I blame lazy GNOME3 developers for starting it all.

B

Re: libvirt guest bridge configuration

[Dan Ritter]

Lucio Crusca wrote: 
> I'm trying to bridge a network interface between host and guest (both Debian
> Buster+Bullseye+Sid) so that NAT is not needed.
> 
> In the host /etc/network/interfaces I've declared a bridge like this:
> 
> auto eno1
> iface eno1 inet static
>   address 2.4.6.8
>   netmask 255.255.255.224
>   gateway 2.4.6.1
>   up route add -net 2.4.6.0 netmask 255.255.255.224 gw 2.4.6.1 dev eno1
> 
> 
> auto virbr-dummy
> iface virbr-dummy inet manual
> pre-up /sbin/ip link add virbr-dummy type dummy
> up /sbin/ip link set virbr-dummy address 52:54:00:f0:37:ba


> 
> 
> auto virbr10
> iface virbr10 inet static
> bridge_ports virbr-dummy
> bridge_stp on
> bridge_fd 2
> address 2.4.6.73
> netmask 255.255.255.224
> gateway 2.4.6.65
> broadcast 2.4.6.95
> up route add -net 2.4.6.64 netmask 255.255.255.224 gw 2.4.6.65 dev eno1

auto eno1
iface eno1 manual

auto virbr10
iface virb10 inet static
  bridge_ports eno1
  bridge_stp off
  address 2.4.6.8
  netmask 255.255.255.224
  gateway 2.4.6.1

the bridge eats the eno1 interface.

The virtual machine setup should add a new bridge_port to the
bridge when it comes up, and remove it when it comes down.

Now the virtual machine interfaces can be on the same network
as the bridge is.

No need for a virbr-dummy.

-dsr-

libvirt guest bridge configuration

[Lucio Crusca]

I'm trying to bridge a network interface between host and guest (both 
Debian Buster+Bullseye+Sid) so that NAT is not needed.


In the host /etc/network/interfaces I've declared a bridge like this:

auto eno1
iface eno1 inet static
  address 2.4.6.8
  netmask 255.255.255.224
  gateway 2.4.6.1
  up route add -net 2.4.6.0 netmask 255.255.255.224 gw 2.4.6.1 dev eno1


auto virbr-dummy
iface virbr-dummy inet manual
pre-up /sbin/ip link add virbr-dummy type dummy
up /sbin/ip link set virbr-dummy address 52:54:00:f0:37:ba


auto virbr10
iface virbr10 inet static
bridge_ports virbr-dummy
bridge_stp on
bridge_fd 2
address 2.4.6.73
netmask 255.255.255.224
gateway 2.4.6.65
broadcast 2.4.6.95
up route add -net 2.4.6.64 netmask 255.255.255.224 gw 2.4.6.65 dev eno1

Please note that 2.4.6.x are not my real IP addresses, but I've been 
really assigned 2 IP addresses and I want to use one for the host and 
the other for the guest.


Until here it seems to work in that I can ping both addresses. However I 
don't know how I should configure my guest VM interface. There is no 
nat, no DHCP and if I specify the same IP address for the virtualized 
interface as the host bridge it's connecting to, it doesn't even detect 
any link.


The guest was created with:

# virt-install --network bridge=virbr10,model=virtio ...

Please help.

Re: Towards a custom personalized Debian installer

[Andrew Cater]

http://flosslinuxblog.blogspot.com/2020/07/a-quick-post-on-how-to-use-jigdo-to.html
- was a relatively quick attempt on my part to show how to use jigdo-lite,
a mirror and a USB stick. If you use a wired connection to do this, you
don't necessarily need non-free firmware.

Firmware - see
https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware#Firmware_during_the_installation

https://cloud.debian.org/images/release/current/amd64/jigdo-16G/ is the
current directory with the two files. If you download both, it's only about
50M and an internet connection to your nearest Debian mirror (and the
download can be restarted if interrupted.)

Hope this helps, as ever,

Andy C.

On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 1:40 PM Richard Owlett  wrote:

> On 09/18/2020 07:29 AM, Andrew Cater wrote:
> > Richard (et. al.)
> >
> > If you want an install without any Internet connectivity - you have one
> > really good choice - but you may need  someone to provide you with media
> > made on another Debian machine.
>
> My policy is to purchase at lease 1 complete DVD set of each Debian
> release (typically not the initial release). I have several machines,
> with one totally isolated from all others and dedicated to experiments.
>
> A link to instructions for creating that media? TIA
>
> >
> > The jigdo file which produces a 16GB file for writing to a USB stick is,
> > essentially, the first three DVDs plus a bit on one medium. It's directly
> > bootable on a machine that supports boot from USB. it will boot in legacy
> > (non-UEFI) and UEFI mode. It's ideal. The one thing it doesn't contain is
> > firmware - but that can be written to another USB stick.One small, cheap,
> > old stick, one newer stick and some internet connectivity _somewhere_ and
> > you can do it.
>
> Sounds like it was designed for someone more on the edge than I. I
> rarely need anything not on DVD1.
>
> >
> > That way, everything is met. I have asked Sledge if he would be prepared
> to
> > produce _another_ non-free image in 16GB size but he replied that it
> wasn't
> > particularly worth the increased bother and storage size of maintaining
> the
> > 16GB file for every point release when it could readily be regenerated.
>
> I *agree*. What is needed is a set of instructions suitable for a
> minimally competent Linux user.
>
> >
> > The alternatives are the BluRay media (or possibly the debian-edu media)
> > both of which are around the same size.
> >
> > This isn't rocket science - but yours is a distinct edge case.
>
> Before I retired, several employers found that a valuable trait.
>
> > Installs to
> > a partition and using the partition to bootstrap a second install are
> > likely to be tested by only one person - yourself - and you would
> probably
> > need to submit very detailed bug reports and a significantly compelling
> use
> > case to achieve major changes.
>
> Any bug reports would likely be against documentation rather than
> against the software itself.
>
> >
> > All the very best, as ever,
> >
> > Andy C
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 10:21 AM Richard Owlett 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 09/17/2020 05:14 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
> >>> Richard Owlett composed on 2020-09-17 04:25 (UTC-0500):
> >>>
>  I unsuccessfully tried to us use debootstrap several years ago.
>  Right now I specifically want to use the normal Debian installer on an
>  editable file system.
> >>>
> >>> Did you happen to notice what I wrote in
> >>> ?
> >>
> >> Yes.
> >> I think I have a counter example {haven't verified no operator error
> >> involved} but I've been working on another fundamental issue --
> >> understanding the installer.
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>

Re: Bullseye Alpha 2 Netinst CD fails to boot

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Kenneth Parker wrote:
> comparing from
> the DVD-1 (that I used yesterday for Try 1), it's missing the isolinux
> Directory.

I did

  $ wget 
https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/bullseye_di_alpha2/amd64/iso-cd/debian-bullseye-DI-alpha2-amd64-netinst.iso
  ...
  $ sha256sum debian-bullseye-DI-alpha2-amd64-netinst.iso
  817897134d399b5e0e434c658e9554f815bd2d4e09331e24872ea21b4d1f0e42  
debian-bullseye-DI-alpha2-amd64-netinst.iso

  # mount debian-bullseye-DI-alpha2-amd64-netinst.iso /mnt/iso
  mount: /dev/loop0 is write-protected, mounting read-only

  $ find /mnt/iso/isolinux | wc -l
  39

Looks ok so far. The boot sectors for CD and DVD look normal too.

  $ xorriso -indev debian-bullseye-DI-alpha2-amd64-netinst.iso \
-report_el_torito plain
  ...
  El Torito images   :   N  Pltf  B   Emul  Ld_seg  Hdpt  Ldsiz LBA
  El Torito boot img :   1  BIOS  y   none  0x  0x00  42441
  El Torito boot img :   2  UEFI  y   none  0x  0x00   5856 977
  El Torito img path :   1  /isolinux/isolinux.bin
  El Torito img opts :   1  boot-info-table isohybrid-suitable
  El Torito img path :   2  /boot/grub/efi.img

The SHA256 matches the first line of
  https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/bullseye_di_alpha2/amd64/iso-cd/SHA256SUMS


So what happens when you do exactly the same things ?


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu

[Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY]

rhkra...@gmail.com writes:

> On Friday, September 18, 2020 09:21:21 AM Brian wrote:
>> On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 07:32:46 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
>> > Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked,
>> > you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to
>> > be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked.
>
>> The default desktop is determined by the Recommends: of task-desktop.
>> The DEs are installed based on the Depends: of the various packages.
>> Is there a better way of doing it?
>>
>> > How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me.
>
>> Regarding new users: they are just as likely to be mystified by "lxde"
>> and "lxqt" as by "Debian desktop environment".
>
> I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first 
> option
> (whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last
> option and change the wording, something like: "[for advanced users:] [can be
> used to] install X only (with no desktop)" (I guess if you want X only you
> have select that in the other place you mentioned.)

And in that case, if users insist on this possibility, it would be much
more useful to have this entry *always* install X only even without the
"no recommends" option.

--
Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
PGP 015AE9B25DCB0511D200A75DE5674DEA514C891D

Re: Bullseye Alpha 2 Netinst CD fails to boot

[Charles Curley]

On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 11:58:34 -0400
Kenneth Parker  wrote:

> Note:  For troubleshooting, I burned the netinst iso to, both a CD-R
> and a DVD-R.  (Fortunately, I'm not Poverty Stricken, wasting a DVD
> for a CD).
> 
> The CD Mounts okay, and appears to have the files.  However,
> comparing from the DVD-1 (that I used yesterday for Try 1), it's
> missing the isolinux Directory.

I take it you burned both from the same .iso image.

Did you verify both?

Can you tell us exactly how you burned them? The exact command line?


I'd check the checksums of both the image and the two media.

Mount the image or media, then CD into its root, and run md5sum. E.g.
for the image:

--
root@hawk:/opt# cd /crc/isos/debian/10.x/
root@hawk:/crc/isos/debian/10.x# ll
total 5874964
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root   4096 May 29 14:58 ./
drwxr-xr-x 4 root root   4096 Oct 22  2019 ../
...
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root  447741952 May  9 07:34 debian-10.4.0-i386-netinst.iso
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 97 May 29 14:58 
debian-10.4.0-i386-netinst.sha256sums
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root161 May 29 14:57 
debian-10.4.0-i386-netinst.sha512sums
...
root@hawk:/crc/isos/debian/10.x# mkdir loop
root@hawk:/crc/isos/debian/10.x# mount debian-10.4.0-i386-netinst.iso loop
mount: /crc/isos/debian/10.x/loop: WARNING: device write-protected, mounted 
read-only.
root@hawk:/crc/isos/debian/10.x# ll loop/
total 984
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   4096 May  9 06:00 ./
drwxr-xr-x 3 root root   4096 Sep 18 10:43 ../
-r--r--r-- 1 root root146 May  9 06:00 autorun.inf
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   2048 May  9 06:00 boot/
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   2048 May  9 05:59 css/
lr-xr-xr-x 1 root root  1 May  9 05:59 debian -> ./
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   2048 May  9 06:00 .disk/
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   2048 May  9 05:59 dists/
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   2048 May  9 05:59 doc/
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   2048 May  9 06:00 EFI/
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   2048 May  9 06:00 firmware/
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 183847 May  4 13:14 g2ldr
-r--r--r-- 1 root root   8192 May  4 13:14 g2ldr.mbr
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   2048 May  9 05:59 install/
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   2048 May  9 06:00 install.386/
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   6144 May  9 06:00 isolinux/
-r--r--r-- 1 root root  89725 May  9 06:00 md5sum.txt
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   4096 May  9 05:59 pics/
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   2048 May  9 06:00 pool/
-r--r--r-- 1 root root   8496 May  9 06:00 README.html
-r--r--r-- 1 root root291 Mar  4  2017 README.mirrors.html
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 86 Mar  4  2017 README.mirrors.txt
-r--r--r-- 1 root root543 May  9 06:00 README.source
-r--r--r-- 1 root root   5107 May  9 06:00 README.txt
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 666591 May  4 13:14 setup.exe
dr-xr-xr-x 1 root root   2048 May  9 05:59 tools/
-r--r--r-- 1 root root228 May  9 06:00 win32-loader.ini
root@hawk:/crc/isos/debian/10.x# cd loop
root@hawk:/crc/isos/debian/10.x/loop# md5sum --q -c md5sum.txt 
root@hawk:/crc/isos/debian/10.x/loop# echo $?
0
root@hawk:/crc/isos/debian/10.x/loop# 

--

cd out and umount afterward.

If you pulled in checksums for the image, you can check the whole image:

--
root@hawk:/crc/isos/debian/10.x# sha512sum --q -c 
debian-10.4.0-i386-netinst.sha512sums 
root@hawk:/crc/isos/debian/10.x# fc -s 512=256
sha256sum --q -c debian-10.4.0-i386-netinst.sha256sums 
root@hawk:/crc/isos/debian/10.x# 
--

But that won't work on the DVD or CD. For those, use the md5sum file
on the media.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Bullseye Alpha 2 Netinst CD fails to boot

[Kenneth Parker]

Note:  For troubleshooting, I burned the netinst iso to, both a CD-R and a
DVD-R.  (Fortunately, I'm not Poverty Stricken, wasting a DVD for a CD).

The CD Mounts okay, and appears to have the files.  However, comparing from
the DVD-1 (that I used yesterday for Try 1), it's missing the isolinux
Directory.

Insights?

Thanks and Best regards,

Kenneth Parker

Re: dist-upgrade wants to deinstall lots of packages?

[David Wright]

On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 10:33:39 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 11:01:49AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > It's difficult to understand your OP, and your difficulty with
> > pasting. However, to take one example,
> 
> Indeed without OP's terminal output we can only guess as to why the
> packages are being removed from their system,

From:

  $ cat /etc/debian_version 
  10.5
  $ apt-get -s full-upgrade
  NOTE: This is only a simulation!
apt-get needs root privileges for real execution.
Keep also in mind that locking is deactivated,
so don't depend on the relevance to the real current situation!
  Reading package lists... Done
  Building dependency tree   
  Reading state information... Done
  Calculating upgrade... Done
  0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
  $ 

I assume the OP is running or intending to run an unreleased suite.

> > [wicd] news
> > 
> >[2020-08-22] Removed 1.7.4+tb2-6 from unstable (Debian FTP Masters)
> >[2019-12-06] Accepted wicd 1.7.4+tb2+2019.09.18git2e0ba579-1 (source all)
> > into experimental, experimental (Axel Beckert)
> >[2019-10-23] wicd REMOVED from testing (Debian testing watch)
> 
> wicd has been removed from the archive (because it is unmaintained) but
> it should not be automatically removed from people's systems as a
> consequence. There must be another explanation for OP's situation.

Yes, I suppose that some conflicting dependency might be introduced
as new versions of libraries etc arrive in unstable. In a sense, that
ought to happen as the suite evolves, and it's partly down to chance
when it doesn't. (For example, I still install xtoolwait from squeeze.)

> That said OP would be wise to look for an alternative to wicd now.

Absolutely. I started to do that last month, when it was mentioned
that wicd was in danger of disappearing, as a casualty of python2.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/08/msg00782.html

Currently I'm reading the files in connman-doc, having seen that
advocated here.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Towards a custom personalized Debian installer

[David Wright]

By way of introduction, my take on this thread is that the OP wants to
repetitively install a system without the fuss of extraneous devices
like DVDs and USB.

So I'm going to assume that the OP is prepared to make one more
conventional installation as a prequel. During this, the OP uses
tools like apt-get, or apt with the necessary options, to avoid
cleaning the cache in /var/cache/apt/archives. All the .deb files
are then copied and preserved in a partition somewhere on the drive.

On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 08:40:11 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 09/18/2020 07:29 AM, Andrew Cater wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 10:21 AM Richard Owlett  wrote:
> > > On 09/17/2020 05:14 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
> > > > Richard Owlett composed on 2020-09-17 04:25 (UTC-0500):
> > > > 
> > > > > I unsuccessfully tried to us use debootstrap several years ago.
> > > > > Right now I specifically want to use the normal Debian installer on an
> > > > > editable file system.
> > > > 
> > > > Did you happen to notice what I wrote in
> > > > ?
> > > 
> > > Yes.
> > > I think I have a counter example {haven't verified no operator error
> > > involved} but I've been working on another fundamental issue --
> > > understanding the installer.
> > 
> > Richard (et. al.)
> > 
> > If you want an install without any Internet connectivity - you have one
> > really good choice - but you may need  someone to provide you with media
> > made on another Debian machine.
> 
> My policy is to purchase at lease 1 complete DVD set of each Debian
> release (typically not the initial release). I have several machines,
> with one totally isolated from all others and dedicated to
> experiments.

So there we go, that's where you conduct the prequel.

> A link to instructions for creating that media? TIA
> 
> > The jigdo file which produces a 16GB file for writing to a USB stick is,
> > essentially, the first three DVDs plus a bit on one medium. It's directly
> > bootable on a machine that supports boot from USB. it will boot in legacy
> > (non-UEFI) and UEFI mode. It's ideal. The one thing it doesn't contain is
> > firmware - but that can be written to another USB stick.One small, cheap,
> > old stick, one newer stick and some internet connectivity _somewhere_ and
> > you can do it.
> 
> Sounds like it was designed for someone more on the edge than I. I
> rarely need anything not on DVD1.

Good. My method is limited to a subset of the packages you installed
during the prequel.

> > That way, everything is met. I have asked Sledge if he would be prepared to
> > produce _another_ non-free image in 16GB size but he replied that it wasn't
> > particularly worth the increased bother and storage size of maintaining the
> > 16GB file for every point release when it could readily be regenerated.
> 
> I *agree*. What is needed is a set of instructions suitable for a
> minimally competent Linux user.

No, you're the one researching this.

Anyway, the method is to boot using the two-file method already
outlined, with a paragraph inserted into the 40_custom section
of grub.cfg like:

menuentry "Install Debian via HTTP" {
search --no-floppy --label --set=root noah02
linux   /boot/linux
initrd  /boot/initrd.gz
}

(Note: I use LABELs here.) What isn't well covered in the docs for this
method is adding the d-i parameters that the installation devices add
for you. (Take a look at /boot/grub/grub.cfg on any installation device.)

At this point, you check your list archives for
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/06/msg00542.html
but substitute drive partition for USB stick.

That thread only deals with the archives cache, as the subject then
was about merely minimising bandwidth, not eliminating it. How you
deal with /var/lib/apt/lists is left as an exercise for your research.

> > The alternatives are the BluRay media (or possibly the debian-edu media)
> > both of which are around the same size.
> > 
> > This isn't rocket science - but yours is a distinct edge case.
> 
> Before I retired, several employers found that a valuable trait.
> 
> > Installs to
> > a partition and using the partition to bootstrap a second install are
> > likely to be tested by only one person - yourself - and you would probably
> > need to submit very detailed bug reports and a significantly compelling use
> > case to achieve major changes.
> 
> Any bug reports would likely be against documentation rather than
> against the software itself.

If you're keen to submit bug reports, you'd be better off trying a
more conventional method. Read to the end of my post and you'll see
apt-cacher-ng mentioned. So, as you're installing on your dedicated
test machine, you could do all the above conventionally, by running
apt-cacher-ng on one of the other machines and conducting the prequel
there.

But looking at
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/06/msg00604.html
it seems we've been here before.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Towards a custom personalized Debian installer

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Andrew Cater wrote:
> > The jigdo file which produces a 16GB file for writing to a USB stick is,
> > essentially, the first three DVDs plus a bit on one medium.

Richard Owlett wrote:
> A link to instructions for creating that media? TIA

If you have a Debian with internet connection, hop into my description
about how to do it with a Live Debian system:
  https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive#Install_package_jigdo-file
and apply it to the stuff in
  https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-16G/
or in the newer directories of
  https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu

[rhkramer]

On Friday, September 18, 2020 09:21:21 AM Brian wrote:
> On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 07:32:46 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked,
> > you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to
> > be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked.

...

> The default desktop is determined by the Recommends: of task-desktop.
> The DEs are installed based on the Depends: of the various packages.
> Is there a better way of doing it?
> 
> > How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me.
> 

...

> Regarding new users: they are just as likely to be mystified by "lxde"
> and "lxqt" as by "Debian desktop environment".

I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first option 
(whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last 
option and change the wording, something like: "[for advanced users:] [can be 
used to] install X only (with no desktop)" (I guess if you want X only you 
have select that in the other place you mentioned.)

I suspect many of the newbies to Linux will have heard about GNOME, KDE, along 
with the suggestion to consider one of the other much simpler desktops.  (When 
I encounter a newbie, I recommend either KDE or one of the lightweight 
desktops, I'm a "never GNOMEr"

Re: Towards a custom personalized Debian installer

[Richard Owlett]

On 09/18/2020 07:29 AM, Andrew Cater wrote:

Richard (et. al.)

If you want an install without any Internet connectivity - you have one
really good choice - but you may need  someone to provide you with media
made on another Debian machine.


My policy is to purchase at lease 1 complete DVD set of each Debian 
release (typically not the initial release). I have several machines, 
with one totally isolated from all others and dedicated to experiments.


A link to instructions for creating that media? TIA



The jigdo file which produces a 16GB file for writing to a USB stick is,
essentially, the first three DVDs plus a bit on one medium. It's directly
bootable on a machine that supports boot from USB. it will boot in legacy
(non-UEFI) and UEFI mode. It's ideal. The one thing it doesn't contain is
firmware - but that can be written to another USB stick.One small, cheap,
old stick, one newer stick and some internet connectivity _somewhere_ and
you can do it.


Sounds like it was designed for someone more on the edge than I. I 
rarely need anything not on DVD1.




That way, everything is met. I have asked Sledge if he would be prepared to
produce _another_ non-free image in 16GB size but he replied that it wasn't
particularly worth the increased bother and storage size of maintaining the
16GB file for every point release when it could readily be regenerated.


I *agree*. What is needed is a set of instructions suitable for a 
minimally competent Linux user.




The alternatives are the BluRay media (or possibly the debian-edu media)
both of which are around the same size.

This isn't rocket science - but yours is a distinct edge case.


Before I retired, several employers found that a valuable trait.


Installs to
a partition and using the partition to bootstrap a second install are
likely to be tested by only one person - yourself - and you would probably
need to submit very detailed bug reports and a significantly compelling use
case to achieve major changes.


Any bug reports would likely be against documentation rather than 
against the software itself.




All the very best, as ever,

Andy C


On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 10:21 AM Richard Owlett  wrote:


On 09/17/2020 05:14 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

Richard Owlett composed on 2020-09-17 04:25 (UTC-0500):


I unsuccessfully tried to us use debootstrap several years ago.
Right now I specifically want to use the normal Debian installer on an
editable file system.


Did you happen to notice what I wrote in
?


Yes.
I think I have a counter example {haven't verified no operator error
involved} but I've been working on another fundamental issue --
understanding the installer.

Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu

[Brian]

On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 07:32:46 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 10:42:59PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > The function of the menu is crystal clear.
> > 
> > Activating as it as presented a user gets the ticked option.
> > 
> > Unticking the option gets the user nothing.
> > 
> > Start with that.
> 
> Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked,
> you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to
> be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked.

I don't really want to nit-pick but, when the menu is presented, only 
"Debian desktop environment" is selected. A user who wonders what it
provides is free to read the available documentation (Installation
Guide, wiki etc) to resolve the mystery. When I have a Bash issue I
often find a bit of reading clarifies matters :).

The default desktop is determined by the Recommends: of task-desktop.
The DEs are installed based on the Depends: of the various packages.
Is there a better way of doing it?

> How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me.

I'll take that to be rhetorical.

Regarding new users: they are just as likely to be mystified by "lxde"
and "lxqt" as by "Debian desktop environment".

-- 
Brian.

Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu

[rhkramer]

Thank you!

On Friday, September 18, 2020 08:12:34 AM Brian wrote:
> It provides the default DE (and can be preseeded with tasksel/first) :

Re: Towards a custom personalized Debian installer

[Andrew Cater]

Richard (et. al.)

If you want an install without any Internet connectivity - you have one
really good choice - but you may need  someone to provide you with media
made on another Debian machine.

The jigdo file which produces a 16GB file for writing to a USB stick is,
essentially, the first three DVDs plus a bit on one medium. It's directly
bootable on a machine that supports boot from USB. it will boot in legacy
(non-UEFI) and UEFI mode. It's ideal. The one thing it doesn't contain is
firmware - but that can be written to another USB stick.One small, cheap,
old stick, one newer stick and some internet connectivity _somewhere_ and
you can do it.

That way, everything is met. I have asked Sledge if he would be prepared to
produce _another_ non-free image in 16GB size but he replied that it wasn't
particularly worth the increased bother and storage size of maintaining the
16GB file for every point release when it could readily be regenerated.

The alternatives are the BluRay media (or possibly the debian-edu media)
both of which are around the same size.

This isn't rocket science - but yours is a distinct edge case. Installs to
a partition and using the partition to bootstrap a second install are
likely to be tested by only one person - yourself - and you would probably
need to submit very detailed bug reports and a significantly compelling use
case to achieve major changes.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy C


On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 10:21 AM Richard Owlett  wrote:

> On 09/17/2020 05:14 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
> > Richard Owlett composed on 2020-09-17 04:25 (UTC-0500):
> >
> >> I unsuccessfully tried to us use debootstrap several years ago.
> >> Right now I specifically want to use the normal Debian installer on an
> >> editable file system.
> >
> > Did you happen to notice what I wrote in
> > ?
>
> Yes.
> I think I have a counter example {haven't verified no operator error
> involved} but I've been working on another fundamental issue --
> understanding the installer.
>
>

Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu

[Brian]

On Fri 18 Sep 2020 at 04:36:08 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> > > I guess what is not clear to me includes (and I did some googling while 
> > > taking
> > > a break from yardwork):
> > > 
> > > * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be 
> > > installed
> > > if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...?
> > > 
> > > * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work 
> > > without one
> > > of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)?
> > > * and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop
> > > provides that is not included with any of the DEs?
> > 
> > All three of these questions have been answered twice.
> > 
> 
> If answered {which I doubt}, the explicit answers to those explicit
> questions were not conveyed to readers.

> * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed
> if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...?

It provides the default DE (and can be preseeded with tasksel/first) :

 Recommends: task-gnome-desktop | task-xfce-desktop | task-kde-desktop | 
 task-lxde-desktop | task-cinnamon-desktop |
 task-mate-desktop | task-lxqt-desktop

It allows only X to be installed (--no-install-recommends):

 Depends: tasksel (= 3.53), xorg, xserver-xorg-video-all,
  xserver-xorg-input-all, desktop-base

> * does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one
> of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)?

It allows only X to be installed (--no-install-recommends).

> * and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop
> provides that is not included with any of the DEs?

For task-mate-desktop:

 Depends: tasksel (= 3.53), task-desktop, mate-desktop-environment,
  lightdm

It is not possible to install only X.

I hope this helps in the exploration of the task selection menu and the
search for leanness.

-- 
Brian.

Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 10:42:59PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> The function of the menu is crystal clear.
> 
> Activating as it as presented a user gets the ticked option.
> 
> Unticking the option gets the user nothing.
> 
> Start with that.

Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked,
you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to
be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked.

How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me.

Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu

[Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY]

Marco Möller writes:

> On 17.09.20 20:58, Brian wrote:
>> On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote:
>>
>>> On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote:
 On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
 Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
  1. remove the check-box.
  2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
  3. add a default check by GNOME.

>>>
>>> YES, Exactly this!
>>
>> That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user
>> to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective
>> that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after
>> the situation has been explained to you?
>>
>
> The situation needs to be explained to new Debian users during the
> installation process, so that they can expect correctly what would
> happen by their selection in this menu. But the need for further
> explanation could fully be avoided by simply changing the menu to what
> is nicely suggested above, because the above suggested menu would
> prevent misunderstandings.
> The elsewhere already mentioned idea, to even add an option for
> letting a user select if a minimum version of the selected graphical
> desktop environment(s) should be installed, or if a more complete
> version including additionally recommended packages is preferred,
> would be perfect.
>
> I assume that we can all agree, that the experienced users will be
> able to deal with any version of that menu, especially as they would
> also know how to install their system using apt manually on the
> console and therefore might anyway not select anything in this
> menu. Consequently, this menu is more targeted to Debian beginners,
> and Debian beginners should be welcomed with unequivocal options to
> select from.
>
> Best regards, Marco!

+1

--
Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
PGP 015AE9B25DCB0511D200A75DE5674DEA514C891D

Re: Towards a custom personalized Debian installer

[Richard Owlett]

On 09/17/2020 05:14 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

Richard Owlett composed on 2020-09-17 04:25 (UTC-0500):
 

I unsuccessfully tried to us use debootstrap several years ago.
Right now I specifically want to use the normal Debian installer on an
editable file system.


Did you happen to notice what I wrote in
?


Yes.
I think I have a counter example {haven't verified no operator error 
involved} but I've been working on another fundamental issue -- 
understanding the installer.

Re: Towards a custom personalized Debian installer

[Richard Owlett]

On 09/17/2020 05:14 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

Richard Owlett composed on 2020-09-17 04:25 (UTC-0500):


Anssi Saari wrote:



Richard Owlett writes:



The default of copying an ISO file to a device is inconvenient for my
peculiar goals.
I want an executable installer resident on an ext4 formatted partition.
It must be possible. A testable installer preceded ISO format.
I'm working thru https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch04s03,
in particular extracting steps for "Manually copying files to the USB
stick — the flexible way".



What reference am I missing?



I've installed Debian a couple of times with debootstrap. Or actually
grml-debootstrap since I had grml on a USB stick for rescue use
anyways. It does need some kind of Linux environment to run in, not
necessarily Debian though.



I unsuccessfully tried to us use debootstrap several years ago.
Right now I specifically want to use the normal Debian installer on an
editable file system.


Did you happen to notice what I wrote in
?

As long has you can have internet access for the process,


An explicit goal is the ability to do an install without *ANY* internet.
The origin of this goal was when I only had dial-up connectivity.
Currently I have a low data cap and do multiple experimental installs.
To further my understanding of the Debian installer:

I want an executable installer resident on an ext4 formatted partition.

[implication -> the partition is writable]


all you need is a
bootloader able to load two files from a mountable partition, installation 
kernel
and installation initrd, which starts a net install, downloading the latest
versions of only what is actually needed for your installation. Substantial
pre-configuration is possible via the installation kernel's command line, some 
of
which is evident in that list post.

IIRC, these two files can also be used to start an installation from .iso or
installation sources located locally. Details I don't know, as I've not tried 
this
process in much too long ago to remember, but the latter sounds like a match for
what you are looking for.



That is tantalizingly close.
As it is said, "The devil is in the details."

Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu

[Richard Owlett]

On 09/17/2020 03:36 PM, Marco Möller wrote:

On 17.09.20 20:58, Brian wrote:

On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote:


On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:
Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
     1. remove the check-box.
     2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
     3. add a default check by GNOME.



YES, Exactly this!


That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user
to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective
that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after
the situation has been explained to you?



The situation needs to be explained to new Debian users during the 
installation process, so that they can expect correctly what would 
happen by their selection in this menu. But the need for further 
explanation could fully be avoided by simply changing the menu to what 
is nicely suggested above, because the above suggested menu would 
prevent misunderstandings.
The elsewhere already mentioned idea, to even add an option for letting 
a user select if a minimum version of the selected graphical desktop 
environment(s) should be installed, or if a more complete version 
including additionally recommended packages is preferred, would be perfect.


I assume that we can all agree, that the experienced users will be able 
to deal with any version of that menu, especially as they would also 
know how to install their system using apt manually on the console and 
therefore might anyway not select anything in this menu. Consequently, 
this menu is more targeted to Debian beginners, and Debian beginners 
should be welcomed with unequivocal options to select from.


Best regards, Marco!





+1 *Thank You*

Re: LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu

[Richard Owlett]

On 09/17/2020 04:44 PM, Brian wrote:

On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 16:07:56 -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:


On Thursday, September 17, 2020 02:58:19 PM Brian wrote:

On Thu 17 Sep 2020 at 09:29:35 +0200, Marco Möller wrote:

On 16.09.20 10:54, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 09/15/2020 06:50 PM, David Wright wrote:

Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
 1. remove the check-box.
 2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
 3. add a default check by GNOME.


YES, Exactly this!


That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user
to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective
that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after
the situation has been explained to you?



I guess what is not clear to me includes (and I did some googling while taking
a break from yardwork):

* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed
if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...?

* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one
of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)?

* and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop

provides that is not included with any of the DEs?


All three of these questions have been answered twice.



If answered {which I doubt}, the explicit answers to those explicit 
questions were not conveyed to readers.


P.S. Note a repetition?

Re: dist-upgrade wants to deinstall lots of packages?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 11:01:49AM -0500, David Wright wrote:

It's difficult to understand your OP, and your difficulty with
pasting. However, to take one example,


Indeed without OP's terminal output we can only guess as to why the
packages are being removed from their system,


[wicd] news

   [2020-08-22] Removed 1.7.4+tb2-6 from unstable (Debian FTP Masters)
   [2019-12-06] Accepted wicd 1.7.4+tb2+2019.09.18git2e0ba579-1 (source all)
into experimental, experimental (Axel Beckert)
   [2019-10-23] wicd REMOVED from testing (Debian testing watch)


wicd has been removed from the archive (because it is unmaintained) but
it should not be automatically removed from people's systems as a
consequence. There must be another explanation for OP's situation.

That said OP would be wise to look for an alternative to wicd now.

--
Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

👱🏻  Jonathan Dowland
✎j...@debian.org
🔗   https://jmtd.net

Re: Buster with MATE without systemd

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Mi, 16 sep 20, 10:32:14, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> 
> Short answer?  Probably not.  systemd has become too pervasive a
> dependency to do so.  It shouldn't be.  No other init system I know of
> is.

Funny how systemd is constantly "blamed" that *other* packages depend on 
it.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: dist-upgrade wants to deinstall lots of packages?

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Jo, 17 sep 20, 17:14:30, Hans wrote:
> 
> The point of my message was not the deinstallation of packages at all, but 
> the 
> deinstallation of packages which are still usefull for people without a 
> substitute or a substitude with the same ease as the uninstalled package.

Please note bullseye is still under development, the final set of 
packages to be released is far from established.

Removed packages can be reintroduced.

This is your chance to do something about it (as in help with 
maintenance, etc.).

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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