Re: On strange threads [was: EPSON ET M 1120 new printer...]

[tomas]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 08:44:20PM +0100, Brian wrote:

[...]

> Tongue. Boots. Lick.

You must be a pretty unhappy person. Pity you.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Apt sources.list

[tomas]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 10:54:10PM +, davidson wrote:

[...]

> What's wrong, Tomas? Don't you want to watch pornographic videos and
> conduct your banking with the same application?

I'm glad I don't have to use the browser for any of those.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Apt sources.list

[Frank]

Op 15-04-2023 om 22:15 schreef Andrew M.A. Cater:

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 08:14:11PM +0100, Brian wrote:

On Sat 15 Apr 2023 at 16:45:40 +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:


I would suggest that you remain on bookworm until bookworm is released as
stable. At that point (and only then) change bookworm to trixie and carry
on. As soon as bookworm is released, there will be massive churn.


OK. But how is testing one day before the release of bookworm significantly
different from trixie a day afterwards?



"Testing" one day before bookworm release -> bookworm.

On release day, bookworm -> "stable", "unstable" -> testing == trixie
Trixie is copied, essentially as the kickstarter for new "unstable".
"Unstable" == Forky.

The pent up changes that have been waiting while the freeze has been on
all come out at once, potentially.

It might not be very much, but it could be a bunch of stuff, size, effects
unknown. Bookworm has been frozen-ish since January ...


Yet if the OP intends to stay with testing, switching now would be fine. 
Or do you seriously believe moving from bookworm (old testing) to trixie 
(new testing) would have a different effect to staying with testing 
while it moves from bookworm to trixie? The flood of packages after the 
freeze ends would be the same either way.


Regards,
Frank

Re: Apt sources.list

[David Wright]

On Sun 16 Apr 2023 at 00:10:33 (-0400), Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > On release day, bookworm -> "stable",
> 
> So far so good.
> 
> > "unstable" -> testing == trixie
> 
> Really?  I thought there was always a delay for packages to move from
> unstable to testing.

Well, I suppose it gives the naïve user a few days for thinking they
got away with it unscathed.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Apt sources.list

[Stefan Monnier]

> On release day, bookworm -> "stable",

So far so good.

> "unstable" -> testing == trixie

Really?  I thought there was always a delay for packages to move from
unstable to testing.


Stefan

Re: Bookworm: dash shell globs don't recognise [^...] to negate a character class

[Max Nikulin]

On 15/04/2023 19:37, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 11:02:12AM +, davidson wrote:

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 Max Nikulin wrote:

The problem is to prevent history expansion while keeping pattern
matching (glob) active.

   du -ks -- .[!.]* | sort -n | tail


Are there versions of bash that exhibit history expansion in the
example above?


Not that I've found.  I tried 3.2 and 2.05b and they're both fine.


I am really sorry. I have checked the terminal app buffer where I was
experimenting with history expansion and almost certainly I
misinterpreted some result.

I see that inside square brackets expansion of exclamation mark is
suppressed when (and only when) it immediately follows the opening
bracket.
- [!c] is safe
- [a-f!@1-2] and [0-9!] are affected by history expansion
  (and it is likely the source of my confusion)

Useful shortcuts for experiments:
- M-^ history-expand-line
- C-/ undo

When writing that message I decided to use the command where I usually
need negation in interactive sessions. So thank you for drawing my
attention that I was wrong.

I decided that history expansion in [!c] is consistent with

echo "Hello World!" in BASH Pitfalls
https://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashPitfalls#echo_.22Hello_World.21.22

and statements in "History Expansion" section of the BASH manual
(and the man page as well)
info "(bash) History Interaction"
https://www.gnu.org/software/bash/manual/html_node/History-Interaction.html


History expansion is performed immediately after a complete line is
read, before the shell breaks it into words, and is performed on each
line individually.

...

the history expansion character is also treated as quoted if it
immediately precedes the closing double quote in a double-quoted string.


No exception for square brackets is mentioned.

Re: "Bug" in Debian Installer?

[David Wright]

On Sat 15 Apr 2023 at 15:51:46 (-0700), David Christensen wrote:
> On 4/15/23 02:36, Andrew Wood wrote:
> > Ive just used the Debian 11 installer ISO running from a USB stick
> > to do an install (AMD64/UEFI) on another USB stick to use as a
> > 'portable PC'.
> > 
> > When it got to the Grub install stage I was expecting it to ask me
> > which disk I wanted Grub installed on as it has in the past but
> > instead it did not.
> > 
> > When I came to reboot the PC I found not only had it put Grub on
> > the USB it had also put on the PCs NVMe SSD overwriting the
> > Windows bootloader on there.
> > 
> > Surely it should have prompted which disk I wanted it on? I
> > thought it was only Windows that trashed other peoples bootloaders
> > ;)
> 
> I recently had a similarly confusing experience with a Dell Precision
> 3630 with an NVMe PCIe SSD, Windows 10 Pro, and BIOS Setup configured
> as follows:
> 
> "System Configuration" -> "SATA Operation" -> "AHCI"
> 
> 
> I installed a 2.5" SATA SSD, inserted a debian-11.6.0-amd64-netinst
> CD, booted the CD, and installed Debian:
> 
> "Debian GNU/Linux UEFI Installer menu" -> "Install"
> ...
> "Partitioning method" -> "Manual" -> <2.5" SATA SSD>
> ...

What was the partitioning layout you used on this disk at that time?

> In the past, d-i "Install" would prompt me regarding GRUB.  This time,
> it did not.
> 
> 
> When d-i was complete, the computer could boot either Windows or
> Debian, with suitable BIOS Setup
> 
> "General" -> "Boot Sequence"
> 
> 
> When I moved the 2.5" SATA SSD to a homebrew Intel DQ67SW computer and
> configured BIOS Setup:
> 
> "Boot" -> "UEFI Boot" -> "Enable"
> 
> The SSD would not boot.
> 
> 
> I zeroed the SSD and installed Debian again.  The SSD now works in
> both computers.
> 
> 
> I later discovered that the first install created a directory and put
> files into the Dell's ESP (!).  I did not select this, nor do I desire
> it.  This is a defect with d-i:
> 
> 2023-04-15 15:10:34 root@taz ~
> # ls -ld /mnt/nvme0n1p1/EFI/debian
> drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Mar 16 22:19 /mnt/nvme0n1p1/EFI/debian
> 
> 2023-04-15 15:10:36 root@taz ~
> # ls -l /mnt/nvme0n1p1/EFI/debian
> total 5892
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 108 Mar 16 22:19 BOOTX64.CSV
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root   84648 Mar 16 22:19 fbx64.efi
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 121 Mar 16 22:19 grub.cfg
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 4150720 Mar 16 22:19 grubx64.efi
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  845480 Mar 16 22:19 mmx64.efi
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  934240 Mar 16 22:19 shimx64.efi
> 
> 
> So, I agree that d-i "Install" choice has bug(s) when installing
> Debian into a computer with multiple storage devices.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Email submission. Was Re: https://: vs. https://:.

[David Wright]

On Sat 15 Apr 2023 at 09:32:34 (-0700), pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> From: David Wright 
> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2023 22:40:21 -0500
> > I notice that 2096 is often a webmail port. Does that mean you've
> > given up on sending emails by their submission port?
> 
> Submitting messages by the Web interface only until exim works.  =8~/
> Certainly submission via exim is a better option.
> 
> > Your emails on this topic suddenly stopped after March 26.
> 
> After switching to a new smarthost, exim still has me stumped.  =8~/
> Switched to the exim-users list for more focused help.

AFAICT I got no response to my suggestion that you add a configuration
line to /var/lib/exim4/config.autogenerated as Debian didn't support
what you were doing through and environment variable.

And in turn, this reply doesn't contain any feedback to my suggestion
of installing the backported exim, which claims to support tls on connect.

So I can't help you much, because I don't have access to any
submission port that uses TLS in that manner. (I only have
access to two hosts.)

> $ cat /etc/exim4/update-exim4.conf.conf | tail -n 15

And I don't think I can help you any more here either. I'm not
an exim expert, nor a Debian/exim expert. I would warn though
about the fact that not all exim-users list users will be well
acquainted with Debian's exim configuration either.

My only remaining advice is to try everything on every port.
Frequently, one particular method is advertised, but the software
may allow other protocols/methods too. For example, the SMTP
port and commands that mutt sends my posts with is quite different
from those used by my hand-crafted automated emails (same hosts).

> The debug log from
> "exim -d+all+noutf8 me@anaccessibledomain ..." is in
> http://easthope.ca/ex1 .  Many lines mention "retry" and I don't
> understand the snag there.  Ideas welcome.
> 
> Not as interesting as an issue of _National_Geographic_.  Explanatory
> headings could help more.

I don't recall ever seeing a debug message with a heading.

> Incidentally, in Debian 11, POP3 works via stunnel.  The only
> difficulty is to automate stunnel startup for non-inetd operation.
> Start stunnel at boot up.

POP3 is for incoming, is it not? I've never seen anything to be gained
from comparing incoming and outgoing email configurations.

> "man stunnel" mentions "delay DNS lookup for connect option".  No
> effect here.
> 
> "@reboot root stunnel" in /etc/crontab starts a process after which
> the MUA reports "No connection".
> 
> https://wiki.debian.org/Pan advises "ENABLED=1" in
> /etc/default/stunnel4. No stunnel process results.  =8~/

That seems to be moving on to newsreaders. ?

Cheers,
David.

Re: Commands service and systemctl.

[David Wright]

On Fri 14 Apr 2023 at 21:01:30 (-0700), pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> From: David Wright 
> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 11:12:18 -0500
> > man 8 service
> 
> "SERVICE(8) ...
>  ...
> service  runs  a System V init script or systemd unit ..."
> 
> Initial release of System V was in 1983.  Initial release of systemd
> was in 2010.  Probably service predates systemd.

I'm not sure what you're reading into that. The bullseye manpage has
a copyright date of 2006 (Red Hat). But if we look at service itself,
which is a script, we can see that the ?earliest Debian version was
written in 2004 by our very own John Hasler, for sarge through lenny,
by which time the version we have now, I think, joins it, and replaces
it in squeeze.

As far as I can ascertain, I've never installed a package containing
/usr/sbin/service until it was moved into init-system-helpers in
stretch, and made a dependency of init.

> > service passes COMMAND  and OPTIONS to the init script unmodified.
> > For systemd units, start,  stop, status, and reload are passed through
> > to their systemctl/initctl equivalents.
> 
> For start, stop & etc. systemctl is more direct than service.  Might be
> some functionality from service not available from systemctl.  Have to
> dig deeper for that.

For systemctl, service is a wrapper, so I don't see how it would have
more functionality.

I can see why a script might use service to save knowing which init
system was being used to control a package, but other than that,
I can't see why one wouldn't just use the appropriate command for
each service.

> No mention that service will be outmoded by systemctl but appears so.

I don't see any evidence for that. Besides, if you decide to use
sysvinit or some other init system, why would you want to use
systemctl for anything?

Or perhaps you're talking about controlling /etc/init.d scripts on
a systemd system. AFAIK, systemctl does that tranparently through
systemd-sysv-install. AFAICT from ls, the only /e/i.d/ script I use
is anacron, and I don't think systemd will ever write a unit for that.

So I think I can safely say that I've never run service, wittingly or
unwittingly, in the decade or more that it was around. (Sorry, John.)

> > ... rather than a wiki webpage.
> 
> The table in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iproute2 is comprehensive
> and direct. Note heading "Utilities obsoleted ...".

So you asked, "Does the relationship between service and systemctl
parallel that between ifconfig and ip?", to which I would answer no.
AFAIK, while not obsolete, net-tools has been deprecated for years,
and can't be used for many tasks that ip can perform.

OTOH, service is designed to handle sysvinit scripts (and ones for
other init systems), and those init systems are still in active use.

> > ... wiki ...
> 
> Any J. Doe can correct an error in a wiki.  In many (most?) man pages
> deficiencies and errors endure.

But I don't know what the systemd wiki has to do with the service
command? You said it yourself: … many occurrences of "service",
none referring to the service command.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Apt sources.list

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 11:09 AM  wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 14:01:27 +0100
> Alain D D Williams  wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 08:52:06AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > While we are talking about this, is there any reason why all the
> > http: should not be https: ?
> >
> > I have done this on my own machine without ill effect.
>
> Okay. Let's open this can of worms. The ONLY reason https is used on
> most sites is because Google *mandated* it years ago. ("Mandate" means
> we'll downgrade your search ranking if you don't use https.) There is
> otherwise no earthly reason to have an encrypted connection to a web
> server unless there is some exchange of private information between you
> and the server.
>
> Reading through all of Google's explanations, I've never seen a
> satisfactory explanation for this change. With that in mind, I believe
> the Debian gods did the right thing in leaving their web connections
> "insecure". Though, in truth, the integrity of Debian server contents
> wouldn't be changed in the slightest whether the connection was
> encrypted or not.

The change came after Snowden released his cache of documents and the
world learned how pervasive snooping is by the US government. There's
nothing special about the US government, and we know other governments
were doing it, too.

I think Snowden accelerated HTTPS adoption or pushed it over the top.
The browsers were interested in encrypting communications for years
because of the "free ISPs". The ones like NetZero that provided no
cost dialup or broadband, but monitored connections and injected
JavaScript into web pages.

Not only did it happen with HTTPS, it also happened in mail protocols.
Google stopped accepting plain text SMTP connections, too.

I think the browsers did a pretty good job of forcing folks to use
encrypted channels. I think it helped secure content for most users.

One size did not fit all. I watched some browser engineers bully folks
on the Web Crypto mailing list pushing the "HTTPS Everywhere" agenda.
One fellow bullied was Mark Watson who tried to argue NetFlix only
needed encrypted comms part of the time (like login and streaming
content). The Google engineers' treatment of folks with non-conforming
viewpoints was awful.

Jeff

Re: Apt sources.list

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Now, personally I don't feel this is a threat model that I need to 
>> worry about.  I just use plain old http sources at home, and if
>> "They" learn that I've downloaded rxvt-unicode and mutt, well, good
>> for Them.
> My understanding is that mandating HTTPS for all connections is supposed
> to make it so that those who might be watching can't treat the choice by
> the user to connect via HTTPS as a sign that the user has something to
> hide, and therefore is worth observing more closely.

My understanding is that the effect has been (in intelligence agencies
around the world) to push the development of attacks/tools that target
the ends of the connections rather than trying to spy on the
connections themselves.


Stefan

Re: Apt sources.list

[davidson]

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 10:54:10PM +, davidson wrote:

In case you wish to obscure what software you *install*, but need not
conceal the software you *download*:

 Step one: Make a list of the packages you want, and then augment it
 with as many plausible alternatives and red herrings as you like.

 Step two:
 $ apt-get -d install 

This downloads the packages only, so you can download packages you
will *not* install, along with ones you will. Then install the proper
subset you want installed, without the '-d' option.


I'm at a loss as to what threat model this is supposed to protect
against.


The answer to *that* question was written on the tin.

Instead, you mean to question the existence of actors who *do* care
what some administrator installs, but do not care what they download.

An entirely fair question. Their existence is a logical possibility.
Since you ask, I don't think their presence is inconceivable.

Ritter wrote...

  "It's nice not to be telling everyone who can sniff a plaintext
  connection which packages you are installing"

I consider it an interesting problem.


In the obvious one ("Comrade Davidson has downloaded package A.  Let's
bump up the priority of his surveillance."), downloading flagged package A
*and* possibly-flagged package B is just going to make your situation
worse, not better.


I explicitly stated, twice (both from the start, and at the conclusion
trimmed by you) that the method does NOT apply to such a threat model.

So here you have helpfully provided a hypothetical narrative to
illustrate a point I wished to make extremely clear.


Now, personally I don't feel this is a threat model that I need to
worry about.  I just use plain old http sources at home, and if
"They" learn that I've downloaded rxvt-unicode and mutt, well, good
for Them.


We do not seem to be having an argument.

--
Hackers are free people. They are like artists. If they are in a good
mood, they get up in the morning and begin painting their pictures.
-- Vladimir Putin

Re: youtube-dl → yt-dlp, was Re: OT: Detecting ISP throttling (was: Re: Potentially OT. Videos lagging & buffering in any browser but Google Chrome.)

[Bret Busby]

30 mars 2023, 23:56 de debianl...@potentially-spam.de-bruyn.de:


I was successful at downloading the video with:


yt-dlp --verbose -k --ignore-config -c 
https://manifest.prod.boltdns.net/manifest/v1/hls/v4/clear/1241706627001/83ddeca4-2e3a-4149-840f-0ca907c2cb59/10s/master.m3u8?fastly_token=NjQyNjYyOWZfOTIzNjUyM2MwN2JlZTI3NjdhNDcwMjM4ZjhmNmY1MmRiZTQxMzM5ZTllOTYyM2E3YTkxZWNhOGQxYmY1YTU0OA%3D%3D



after finishing download, i found the file


master-master.mp4




If you (the poster who managed to download the video, using the above 
command and URL) happen to remember how you got to the URL, please 
either post the steps to the list, or, send to me direct, as I have two 
more videos from Rootstech 2023, that I want to download, that they have 
not yet (and are therefore, unlikely to be) uploaded to youtube for 
viewing/downloading, and, I have problems with the streaming of videos, 
in that the streams get blocked/broken, causing continuity problems in 
the videos.


And, whilst I have tried applying the Rootstech web site videos' URL's, 
in vlc, to view/capture streaming videos in vlc, that does not work. 
vlc is the only Linux application of which I am aware, that would be 
likely to download/capture the videos direct from the Rootstech web 
site, and, as I cannot get that to work, the only means that I believe 
that is available, for downloading the videos, if the process can be 
determined, for achieving the downloadable videos as above, is similarly 
through using yt-dlp, through the web site at manifest.prod.boltdns.net 
.


But, I have no idea as to how to get to the path, for each of the videos 
that I want, within or through that web site.


Thank you in anticipation.

..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..

Re: EPSON ET M 1120 new printer: If You can read this, you are using the wrong driver

[Bret Busby]

On 16/4/23 06:14, Jeffrey Walton wrote:

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 4:26 PM Bret Busby  wrote:


On 16/4/23 03:57, Bret Busby wrote:

On 15/4/23 19:41, Brian wrote:




Why not just everyone attack each other?


There have not been any attacks whatsoever on any users.


This looks like an uncontrolled pillow fight.


It only looks that way. In fact, everything is under control.


Perhaps you should try to convince the others who have also seen the
sandpit fight.


It's nothing a Plonk won't fix :)

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=usenet+plonk+killfile

Jeff

Or, I suppose, a bottle of plonk (providing the drinker is away from, 
and not thinking about, the aggression, when consuming the plonk) .


:)

(Disclaimer - I am not encouraging the drinking of plonk - I am a 
teetotaller)


..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..

Re: Apt sources.list

[The Wanderer]

On 2023-04-15 at 19:11, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 10:54:10PM +, davidson wrote:
> 
>> In case you wish to obscure what software you *install*, but need
>> not conceal the software you *download*:
>> 
>> Step one: Make a list of the packages you want, and then augment
>> it with as many plausible alternatives and red herrings as you
>> like.
>> 
>> Step two: $ apt-get -d install 
>> 
>> This downloads the packages only, so you can download packages you 
>> will *not* install, along with ones you will. Then install the
>> proper subset you want installed, without the '-d' option.
> 
> I'm at a loss as to what threat model this is supposed to protect
> against.

My guess is that it's supposed to make it harder for people to guess
what exploits your computer may be vulnerable to, by obfuscating which
of the various packages you downloaded are actually installed and
therefore potentially in use.



> Now, personally I don't feel this is a threat model that I need to 
> worry about.  I just use plain old http sources at home, and if
> "They" learn that I've downloaded rxvt-unicode and mutt, well, good
> for Them.

My understanding is that mandating HTTPS for all connections is supposed
to make it so that those who might be watching can't treat the choice by
the user to connect via HTTPS as a sign that the user has something to
hide, and therefore is worth observing more closely.

I seem to remember having seen suggestions that some regimes might even
prohibit the use of HTTPS entirely, so as to ensure that they can spy on
their subjects' connections, and that such a prohibition would be less
practical for them to impose if everything requires HTTPS. I'm not sure
about the real-world basis for that, however.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Apt sources.list

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 10:54:10PM +, davidson wrote:
> In case you wish to obscure what software you *install*, but need not
> conceal the software you *download*:
> 
>  Step one: Make a list of the packages you want, and then augment it
>  with as many plausible alternatives and red herrings as you like.
> 
>  Step two:
>  $ apt-get -d install 
> 
> This downloads the packages only, so you can download packages you
> will *not* install, along with ones you will. Then install the proper
> subset you want installed, without the '-d' option.

I'm at a loss as to what threat model this is supposed to protect against.
In the obvious one ("Comrade Davidson has downloaded package A.  Let's
bump up the priority of his surveillance."), downloading flagged package A
*and* possibly-flagged package B is just going to make your situation
worse, not better.

Now, personally I don't feel this is a threat model that I need to
worry about.  I just use plain old http sources at home, and if "They"
learn that I've downloaded rxvt-unicode and mutt, well, good for Them.

Re: "Bug" in Debian Installer?

[rhkramer]

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 03:37:54 PM Greg Wooledge wrote:
> I think it's either "Stupid Wild-Ass Guess" or "Silly Wild-Ass Guess".

In my experience (and usage) it was "Scientific Wild Ass Guess".

-- 
rhk 
  
| No entity has permission to use this email to train an AI. 

Re: Apt sources.list

[davidson]

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 12:18:57PM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:

pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote:


Okay. Let's open this can of worms.


I wish more would.


The ONLY reason https is used on most sites is because Google
*mandated* it years ago. ("Mandate" means we'll downgrade your
search ranking if you don't use https.) There is otherwise no
earthly reason to have an encrypted connection to a web server
unless there is some exchange of private information between you
and the server.


... and because Let's Encrypt made it relatively easy, monetarily
free, and automated.


Who doesn't love free tickets to the security theatre?


Google Chrome being one of their sponsors.

Now don't get me wrong: there are many things to like about TLS in
general and about Let's Encrypt in particular. And another sponsor
of Let's Encrypt is the EFF, whose motives, to me at least, are
beyond reproach.


That the EFF is "beyond reproach" is quite a strong statement. Once
upon a time, I would have agreed.

I am no longer so confident. Institutions that pose a genuine threat
(to the agenda of the powers that be) get captured. One must seek out
and examine evidence that contradicts beliefs that make one feel safe.

Placing an institution "beyond reproach" prevents that practice.


But it's a mixed bag, and that "unencrypted is BAAAD" meme is just
security theater.


Security theatre is never cost-free, and always has a purpose. Whose
purpose? Who pays for it? And who endorsed propaganda in favor of its
institution?


"insecure". Though, in truth, the integrity of Debian server contents
wouldn't be changed in the slightest whether the connection was
encrypted or not.



It's nice not to be telling everyone who can sniff a plaintext
connection which packages you are installing,


Without doubt, this is an advantage of a TLS connection. If you
do care about that, here would be one reason.


In case you wish to obscure what software you *install*, but need not
conceal the software you *download*:

 Step one: Make a list of the packages you want, and then augment it
 with as many plausible alternatives and red herrings as you like.

 Step two:
 $ apt-get -d install 

This downloads the packages only, so you can download packages you
will *not* install, along with ones you will. Then install the proper
subset you want installed, without the '-d' option.

This is more work *for you* than TLS (supposing you don't automate
alternative/red-herring selection). More work for you may be worth the
cost, if the work is effective. This method does not rely on
certificates and "trusted" authorities.

As already mentioned, it does not prevent observers from noticing that
you *downloaded* something forbidden.


and prevents those people from trivially substituting trojan
horses.


Setting aside the question of what class of actors are (or are not) so
thwarted, I was surprised to read this. A clarification or elaboration
might be interesting.

Sufficient clarity and necessary precision often work against one
another.


...and this is downright wrong.


Or perhaps incomplete. I too did a double-take, though, and would like
to hear more.


The Debian packages are signed.


Q: Waaah. Stupid APT won't verify a key.
A: Easy peasy. [Demonstrates how to retrieve and trust attacker's key]
Q: Thanks a lot, anon. It worked!


 If you got your first install from a trusted source, this is way
more secure than TLS [1]. TLS doesn't hurt here, but it doesn't help
much, either.

[1] Have you ever had a look at the incredible zoo of root certs
your browser trusts?


What's wrong, Tomas? Don't you want to watch pornographic videos and
conduct your banking with the same application?

--
Hackers are free people. They are like artists. If they are in a good
mood, they get up in the morning and begin painting their pictures.
-- Vladimir Putin

Re: "Bug" in Debian Installer?

[David Christensen]

On 4/15/23 02:36, Andrew Wood wrote:
Ive just used the Debian 11 installer ISO running from a USB stick to do 
an install (AMD64/UEFI) on another USB stick to use as a 'portable PC'.


When it got to the Grub install stage I was expecting it to ask me which 
disk I wanted Grub installed on as it has in the past but instead it did 
not.


When I came to reboot the PC I found not only had it put Grub on the USB 
it had also put on the PCs NVMe SSD overwriting the Windows bootloader 
on there.


Surely it should have prompted which disk I wanted it on? I thought it 
was only Windows that trashed other peoples bootloaders ;)


Regards

Andrew



I recently had a similarly confusing experience with a Dell Precision 
3630 with an NVMe PCIe SSD, Windows 10 Pro, and BIOS Setup configured as 
follows:


"System Configuration" -> "SATA Operation" -> "AHCI"


I installed a 2.5" SATA SSD, inserted a debian-11.6.0-amd64-netinst CD, 
booted the CD, and installed Debian:


"Debian GNU/Linux UEFI Installer menu" -> "Install"
...
"Partitioning method" -> "Manual" -> <2.5" SATA SSD>
...

In the past, d-i "Install" would prompt me regarding GRUB.  This time, 
it did not.



When d-i was complete, the computer could boot either Windows or Debian, 
with suitable BIOS Setup


"General" -> "Boot Sequence"


When I moved the 2.5" SATA SSD to a homebrew Intel DQ67SW computer and 
configured BIOS Setup:


"Boot" -> "UEFI Boot" -> "Enable"

The SSD would not boot.


I zeroed the SSD and installed Debian again.  The SSD now works in both 
computers.



I later discovered that the first install created a directory and put 
files into the Dell's ESP (!).  I did not select this, nor do I desire 
it.  This is a defect with d-i:


2023-04-15 15:10:34 root@taz ~
# ls -ld /mnt/nvme0n1p1/EFI/debian
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Mar 16 22:19 /mnt/nvme0n1p1/EFI/debian

2023-04-15 15:10:36 root@taz ~
# ls -l /mnt/nvme0n1p1/EFI/debian
total 5892
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 108 Mar 16 22:19 BOOTX64.CSV
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root   84648 Mar 16 22:19 fbx64.efi
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 121 Mar 16 22:19 grub.cfg
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 4150720 Mar 16 22:19 grubx64.efi
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  845480 Mar 16 22:19 mmx64.efi
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  934240 Mar 16 22:19 shimx64.efi


So, I agree that d-i "Install" choice has bug(s) when installing Debian 
into a computer with multiple storage devices.



David

Re: EPSON ET M 1120 new printer: If You can read this, you are using the wrong driver

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 4:26 PM Bret Busby  wrote:
>
> On 16/4/23 03:57, Bret Busby wrote:
> > On 15/4/23 19:41, Brian wrote:
> >
> > 
> >
> >>> Why not just everyone attack each other?
> >>
> >> There have not been any attacks whatsoever on any users.
> >>
> >>> This looks like an uncontrolled pillow fight.
> >>
> >> It only looks that way. In fact, everything is under control.
> >
> > Perhaps you should try to convince the others who have also seen the
> > sandpit fight.

It's nothing a Plonk won't fix :)

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=usenet+plonk+killfile

Jeff

Re: Apt sources.list

[songbird]

Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
...
> On release day, bookworm -> "stable", "unstable" -> testing == trixie
> Trixie is copied, essentially as the kickstarter for new "unstable".
> "Unstable" == Forky. 

  Unstable == Sid  Forky will happen sometime in the future
when they start talking about freezing testing again.


  songbird

Re: EPSON ET M 1120 new printer: If You can read this, you are using the wrong driver

[Bret Busby]

On 16/4/23 03:57, Bret Busby wrote:

On 15/4/23 19:41, Brian wrote:




Why not just everyone attack each other?


There have not been any attacks whatsoever on any users.


This looks like an uncontrolled pillow fight.


It only looks that way. In fact, everything is under control.



Perhaps you should try to convince the others who have also seen the 
sandpit fight.


..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..




And, a clear lack of respect has been shown, by the antagonists, for 
every other subscriber to the list.


..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..

Re: Apt sources.list

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 08:14:11PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sat 15 Apr 2023 at 16:45:40 +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> 
> > I would suggest that you remain on bookworm until bookworm is released as
> > stable. At that point (and only then) change bookworm to trixie and carry
> > on. As soon as bookworm is released, there will be massive churn.
> 
> OK. But how is testing one day before the release of bookworm significantly
> different from trixie a day afterwards?
> 

"Testing" one day before bookworm release -> bookworm.

On release day, bookworm -> "stable", "unstable" -> testing == trixie
Trixie is copied, essentially as the kickstarter for new "unstable".
"Unstable" == Forky. 

The pent up changes that have been waiting while the freeze has been on
all come out at once, potentially.

It might not be very much, but it could be a bunch of stuff, size, effects
unknown. Bookworm has been frozen-ish since January ...

It's as nothing to the "feels larger" shock to people who keep their 
Debian pinned to "stable" and suddenly get ~2.2 years worth of (possibly
incompatible) changes in a day, however, and then wonder what hit them.

All best, as ever,

Andy Cater

All best, as ever

> -- 
> Brian.
> 

Re: Apt sources.list

[paulf]

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 16:45:40 +
"Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 01:23:05PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Sat 15 Apr 2023 at 08:11:17 -0400, pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote:
> > 
> > > Folks:
> > > 
> > > Here is my sources.list file:
> > > 
> > > ---
> > > 
> > > deb http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main contrib
> > > non-free deb-src http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main
> > > contrib non-free
> > > 
> > > deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security
> > > main contrib non-free deb-src
> > > http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security main
> > > contrib non-free
> > > 
> > > ---
> > > 
> > > According to https://www.debian.org/releases/, bookworm at this
> > > time is "testing". But when the next release comes, bookworm will
> > > still be bookworm, but "testing" will be bookworm "plus". I'd
> > > like to follow testing, regardless of the status of Debian
> > > official releases.
> > > 
> 
> I would really not advise that. The changes as one distribution rolls
> to stable and the next one becomes testing are quite major - also,
> things change (like sources.list files).
> 
> I would suggest that you remain on bookworm until bookworm is
> released as stable. At that point (and only then) change bookworm to
> trixie and carry on. As soon as bookworm is released, there will be
> massive churn.
> 
> Stable, testing, unstable are mutable: distribution code names are
> not. There's a reason why Debian switched to codenames early - there
> never was a Debian 1.0 -
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_version_history and
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases
> 

I've been at Debian for a couple of decades now, and I'm aware of how
the distro and its flavors change periodically. At the instant bookworm
becomes "official", stable changes completely to become bookworm, and
testing is slightly different from bookworm. I've run stable, testing
and sid in the past. Sid's a little too unstable for my tastes. But
stable is typically too "old". Testing is fine for me as long as I
don't continually update packages.

A while back, I tried Arch for about four months. Great distro, but I
had stability problems because on Arch, you typically update all the
time. It's a complete moving target. It's fine for a lot of guys who
chase the latest packages, but I'm not that guy.

When Debian officially changes versions, I typically reinstall, whether
I'm running stable or testing. This brings most everything up to date,
and eliminates the cruft I'm accumulated of packages I installed but no
longer want. 

I'm willing to shoulder the risks of running testing and upgrading
entirely when bookworm becomes stable.

Paul

-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

Re: Apt sources.list

[Frank]

Op 15-04-2023 om 18:12 schreef Tixy:

On Sat, 2023-04-15 at 08:11 -0400, pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote:



According to https://www.debian.org/releases/, bookworm at this time is
"testing". But when the next release comes, bookworm will still be
bookworm, but "testing" will be bookworm "plus". I'd like to follow
testing, regardless of the status of Debian official releases.

So... in my sources.list, if I change "bookworm" to "testing", will it
do that, and (other than the instabilities of testing) is there any
liability to it?


Testing doesn't get explicit security support so there's no point in
having 'testing-security' lines in sources.list (I guess it'll give an
error anyway).


No error. It exists but as a perpetually empty repository.

Regards,
Frank

Re: EPSON ET M 1120 new printer: If You can read this, you are using the wrong driver

[Bret Busby]

On 15/4/23 19:41, Brian wrote:




Why not just everyone attack each other?


There have not been any attacks whatsoever on any users.


This looks like an uncontrolled pillow fight.


It only looks that way. In fact, everything is under control.



Perhaps you should try to convince the others who have also seen the 
sandpit fight.


..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..

Re: Apt sources.list

[Andy Smith]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 07:21:17PM +0100, Alain D D Williams wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 11:00:52AM -0400, pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote:
> 
> > Okay. Let's open this can of worms. The ONLY reason https is used on
> > most sites is because Google *mandated* it years ago. ("Mandate" means
> > we'll downgrade your search ranking if you don't use https.) There is
> > otherwise no earthly reason to have an encrypted connection to a web
> > server unless there is some exchange of private information between you
> > and the server.
> 
> Where I live (England) I do not care if "the authorities" see what I have
> installed on my machine. If I lived in a totalitarian state†† there are some
> packages that might raise my profile on some "radar".

I am sad to have to type such an obvious point, but the https
feature exists for everyone, not just you. It is great that you are
privileged enough to not feel like you are under threat from your
own government (whether you have accurately estimated that risk is
another conversation) but not everyone is so privileged.

You did not ask if the feature made sense *for you*, you just asked
about the feature. Even if you *had* asked if it made sense for you,
no one would be able to answer as only you can decide what your
threat model is.

What you have said above is almost literally, "I don't have anything
to hide therefore I don't need privacy", but you've said it in such
a way as to imply that no one needs this particular feature.
Disappointing.

Your literal question was if there was any reason NOT to change
every APT URL to https. The objective answer is that not all Debian
mirrors support https! It seems like your real question was more
like, "is there any point to doing this" which you got a lot of
response to.

The hiding of the content of what is requested is a real feature
that some people want.

I haven't yet seen it mentioned in this thread but there are even
people who refute that argument. They say that an advanced attacker
in the middle will use traffic analysis and the publicly known sizes
of all Debian packages to easily work out which packages are
requested even without their names being visible.

Still, it not being in the clear makes this harder, and some people
want that.

By the way, in terms of malware distribution it is easier to
compromise a real Debian developer and get them to upload the bad
package in an entirely proper way. THis has already happened at
least once, though not to a stable release AFAIK. Unlike tampering
of in-flight downloads which has never been reported.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: On strange threads [was: EPSON ET M 1120 new printer...]

[Brian]

On Sat 15 Apr 2023 at 15:32:30 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 12:50:16PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Given the time pattern of posts and the lack of any learning progress
> > in respect to proper asking Debian GNU/Linux questions i suspect that
> > the mails from h...@hotmail.com are not sent with sincere intentions.
> 
> This is a pretty strong assessment. Coming from you, I hesitate to
> dismiss it right away,

Tongue. Boots. Lick.

   >  but I'd still prefer to apply a healthy dose
> of Hanlon's razor.

Designating a user as stupid is a no-no in my book.

-- 
Brian.

Re: "Bug" in Debian Installer?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 07:20:58PM +0200, Geert Stappers wrote:
> [1] I needed a websearch on S.W.A.G.   Did find
> - Sharing Warmth Around the Globe
> - Sealed With A Gift
> - Stolen Without A Gun
> - So What? Another Giveaway?
> - Sub-Watershed Advisory Group
> - Some Women Are Great
> - Souvenirs Wearables and Gifts
> 
> Stop searching upon
> Something We All Get (tired of hearing)

I think it's either "Stupid Wild-Ass Guess" or "Silly Wild-Ass Guess".

Re: Apt sources.list

[Charles Curley]

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 11:00:52 -0400
 wrote:

> Okay. Let's open this can of worms. The ONLY reason https is used on
> most sites is because Google *mandated* it years ago. ("Mandate" means
> we'll downgrade your search ranking if you don't use https.) There is
> otherwise no earthly reason to have an encrypted connection to a web
> server unless there is some exchange of private information between
> you and the server.

 I disagree. If everyone only encrypted the traffic they wanted kept
 private, the bad guys would know that decrypting a stream would yield
 sensitive information. If we all encrypt a lot of our traffic,
 sensitive and otherwise, we reduce the advantage of cracking encrypted
 traffic.

There is no such thing as absolute security. There is only relative
security. The object, then, is to make yourself more secure than other
people. The bad guys will leave you alone and go after easier pickings.
Of course, the easier pickings should wise up and up their game as
well, leading to a nice virtuous spiral.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Apt sources.list

[Alain D D Williams]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 11:00:52AM -0400, pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote:

> Okay. Let's open this can of worms. The ONLY reason https is used on
> most sites is because Google *mandated* it years ago. ("Mandate" means
> we'll downgrade your search ranking if you don't use https.) There is
> otherwise no earthly reason to have an encrypted connection to a web
> server unless there is some exchange of private information between you
> and the server.

Where I live (England) I do not care if "the authorities" see what I have
installed on my machine. If I lived in a totalitarian state†† there are some
packages that might raise my profile on some "radar".

†† There are several - I will not mention names as I wish to keep politics out
of this list.

> Reading through all of Google's explanations, I've never seen a
> satisfactory explanation for this change. With that in mind, I believe
> the Debian gods did the right thing in leaving their web connections
> "insecure". Though, in truth, the integrity of Debian server contents
> wouldn't be changed in the slightest whether the connection was
> encrypted or not.

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT 
Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: 
https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
#include 

Re: Apt sources.list

[tomas]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 12:18:57PM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote: 
> > 
> > Okay. Let's open this can of worms. The ONLY reason https is used on
> > most sites is because Google *mandated* it years ago. ("Mandate" means
> > we'll downgrade your search ranking if you don't use https.) There is
> > otherwise no earthly reason to have an encrypted connection to a web
> > server unless there is some exchange of private information between you
> > and the server.
> 
> ... and because Let's Encrypt made it relatively easy,
> monetarily free, and automated.

Google Chrome being one of their sponsors.

Now don't get me wrong: there are many things to like about TLS in
general and about Let's Encrypt in particular. And another sponsor
of Let's Encrypt is the EFF, whose motives, to me at least, are
beyond reproach. But it's a mixed bag, and that "unencrypted is
BAAAD" meme is just security theater.

> > "insecure". Though, in truth, the integrity of Debian server contents
> > wouldn't be changed in the slightest whether the connection was
> > encrypted or not.
> 
> 
> It's nice not to be telling everyone who can sniff a plaintext
> connection which packages you are installing,

Without doubt, this is an advantage of a TLS connection. If you
do care about that, here would be one reason.

>and prevents those
> people from trivially substituting trojan horses.

...and this is downright wrong. The Debian packages are signed.
If you got your first install from a trusted source, this is
way more secure than TLS [1]. TLS doesn't hurt here, but it
doesn't help much, either.

[1] Have you ever had a look at the incredible zoo of root certs
your browser trusts?

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: "Bug" in Debian Installer?

[Geert Stappers]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 06:24:34PM +0100, Andrew Wood wrote:
> On 15/04/2023 18:20, Geert Stappers wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 11:02:02AM -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> > > On Sat, 15 Apr 2023, Geert Stappers wrote:
> > > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 10:36:14AM +0100, Andrew Wood wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Surely it should have prompted which disk I wanted it on?
> > > >
> > > > Yes.  And it does. Normally.
> > > >
> > > Priority of questions asked was not set to low in the
> > > main menu.  I routinely change that to low when doing a debian install and
> > > preserve logs for future reference.  Default priority if memory serves is
> > > medium.
> > 
> > Time will tell if original poster shares information
> > on whether or not if priority for debian-install was changed.
> 
> Nothing was changed. I dont even know what that is.

Quoting debian-installer manual:


debconf/priority (priority)

This parameter sets the lowest priority of messages to be displayed.

The default installation uses priority=high. This means that both
high and critical priority messages are shown, but medium and low
priority messages are skipped. If problems are encountered, the
installer adjusts the priority as needed.

If you add priority=medium as boot parameter, you will be shown the
installation menu and gain more control over the installation. When
priority=low is used, all messages are shown (this is equivalent to
the expert boot method). With priority=critical, the installation
system will display only critical messages and try to do the right
thing without fuss.



> Ive installed Debian on many  systems over the past 12 years

Acknowledge.


> and have never altered a 'priority' in the installer.
 
Make it possible to answer the question from the subject line.


Groeten
Geert Stappers
-- 
Silence is hard to parse

Re: Debian Stretch : X server won't start after update

[Charles Curley]

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 05:34:36 +0100 (BST)
Tim Woodall  wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Apr 2023, Charles Curley wrote:
> 
>  [...]  
>  [...]  
>  [...]  
> That page is out of date. On the LTS page itself:
> 
> Debian 9 "Stretch"
> 
> i386, amd64, armel, armhf and arm64
> 
> July 6, 2020 to June 30, 2022
> 

Thanks, to you and to Anssi Saari . I filed a bug,
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=103. A fix has
been applied, and should be available soon.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: "Bug" in Debian Installer?

[Jude DaShiell]

You've never seen debian main menu in the installer.  That's selection 19
on that main menu and selection 21 helps big time with debugging since you
choose that to save log files and selection 3 under that will save logs to
/var/log/installer directory.  Two ways to get to main menu.  First and
slowest is to hit < sign several times until the menu comes up once
installer started.  Second, use boot options and a enter i enter x enter I
think will put you in the installer main menu when the installer comes up.
I usually do a  i  s  "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that
order." Ed Howdershelt 1940.

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023, Andrew Wood wrote:

>
> On 15/04/2023 18:20, Geert Stappers wrote:
> > Time will tell if original poster shares information
> > on whether or not if priority for debian-install was changed.
>
>
> Nothing was changed. I dont even know what that is. Ive installed Debian on
> many  systems over the past 12 years and have never altered a 'priority' in
> the installer.
>
>
>

Re: "Bug" in Debian Installer?

[Andrew Wood]

On 15/04/2023 18:20, Geert Stappers wrote:

Time will tell if original poster shares information
on whether or not if priority for debian-install was changed.



Nothing was changed. I dont even know what that is. Ive installed Debian 
on many  systems over the past 12 years and have never altered a 
'priority' in the installer.

Re: "Bug" in Debian Installer?

[Geert Stappers]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 11:02:02AM -0400, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Apr 2023, Geert Stappers wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 10:36:14AM +0100, Andrew Wood wrote:
> > > Ive just used the Debian 11 installer ISO running from a USB stick to do 
> > > an
> > > install (AMD64/UEFI) on another USB stick to use as a 'portable PC'.
> > >
> > > When it got to the Grub install stage I was expecting it to ask me which
> > > disk I wanted Grub installed on as it has in the past but instead it did
> > > not.
> >
> > Way before "grub install" should have been asked
> >
> >On which disk to install
> >
> >
> > > When I came to reboot the PC I found not only had it put Grub on the USB 
> > > it
> > > had also put on the PCs NVMe SSD overwriting the Windows bootloader on
> > > there.
> >
> > I do read "two devices were effected", I think it is the same error of
> >
> >
> >On which disk to install
> >
> >
> >
> > > Surely it should have prompted which disk I wanted it on?
> >
> > Yes.  And it does. Normally.
> >
> 
> A s.w.a.g. here.  

[1]


> Priority of questions asked was not set to low in the
> main menu.  I routinely change that to low when doing a debian install and
> preserve logs for future reference.  Default priority if memory serves is
> medium.

Time will tell if original poster shares information
on whether or not if priority for debian-install was changed.


> > Please make it possible to reproduce what is encountered.
> > Yeah, I would like to known what happened
> > and I say right now there is not enough information to reproduce.

So we might be able to answer the question

 "Bug" in Debian Installer?

stated in the Subject line.



Groeten
Geert Stappers

[1] I needed a websearch on S.W.A.G.   Did find
- Sharing Warmth Around the Globe
- Sealed With A Gift
- Stolen Without A Gun
- So What? Another Giveaway?
- Sub-Watershed Advisory Group
- Some Women Are Great
- Souvenirs Wearables and Gifts

Stop searching upon
Something We All Get (tired of hearing)

-- 
Super Wacky And Great

Email submission. Was Re: https://: vs. https://:.

[peter]

In-reply-to: 
References:  



From: David Wright 
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2023 22:40:21 -0500

I notice that 2096 is often a webmail port. Does that mean you've
given up on sending emails by their submission port?


Submitting messages by the Web interface only until exim works.  =8~/
Certainly submission via exim is a better option.


Your emails on this topic suddenly stopped after March 26.


After switching to a new smarthost, exim still has me stumped.  =8~/
Switched to the exim-users list for more focused help.

$ cat /etc/exim4/update-exim4.conf.conf | tail -n 15
# This is a Debian specific file

dc_eximconfig_configtype='smarthost'
dc_other_hostnames=''
dc_local_interfaces='127.0.0.1'
dc_readhost='easthope.ca'
dc_relay_domains=''
dc_minimaldns='false'
dc_relay_nets=''
dc_smarthost='mail.easthope.ca::465'
CFILEMODE='644'
dc_use_split_config='false'
dc_hide_mailname='true'
dc_mailname_in_oh='true'
dc_localdelivery='mail_spool'

The debug log from
"exim -d+all+noutf8 me@anaccessibledomain ..." is in
http://easthope.ca/ex1 .  Many lines mention "retry" and I don't
understand the snag there.  Ideas welcome.

Not as interesting as an issue of _National_Geographic_.  Explanatory
headings could help more.
a: Where are you going.
b: Through the door.
a: I can see that.
b: Then why did you ask?
a: Because I don't have the ability to read thoughts.  [To know you're
going to the store for coffee cream.]

Incidentally, in Debian 11, POP3 works via stunnel.  The only
difficulty is to automate stunnel startup for non-inetd operation.
Start stunnel at boot up.

"man stunnel" mentions "delay DNS lookup for connect option".  No
effect here.

"@reboot root stunnel" in /etc/crontab starts a process after which
the MUA reports "No connection".

https://wiki.debian.org/Pan advises "ENABLED=1" in
/etc/default/stunnel4. No stunnel process results.  =8~/

Thx,... P.

Re: Apt sources.list

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 01:23:05PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sat 15 Apr 2023 at 08:11:17 -0400, pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote:
> 
> > Folks:
> > 
> > Here is my sources.list file:
> > 
> > ---
> > 
> > deb http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main contrib non-free
> > deb-src http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main contrib non-free
> > 
> > deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security main
> > contrib non-free deb-src http://security.debian.org/debian-security 
> > bookworm-security main contrib non-free
> > 
> > ---
> > 
> > According to https://www.debian.org/releases/, bookworm at this time is
> > "testing". But when the next release comes, bookworm will still be
> > bookworm, but "testing" will be bookworm "plus". I'd like to follow
> > testing, regardless of the status of Debian official releases.
> > 

I would really not advise that. The changes as one distribution rolls to 
stable and the next one becomes testing are quite major - also, things
change (like sources.list files).

I would suggest that you remain on bookworm until bookworm is released as
stable. At that point (and only then) change bookworm to trixie and carry
on. As soon as bookworm is released, there will be massive churn.

Stable, testing, unstable are mutable: distribution code names are not.
There's a reason why Debian switched to codenames early - there never was
a Debian 1.0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_version_history
and https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases

With every good wish, as ever,

Andy Cater
> > So... in my sources.list, if I change "bookworm" to "testing", will it
> > do that, and (other than the instabilities of testing) is there any
> > liability to it?
> 
> bookworm to testing is exactly what you want.
> 
> -- 
> Brian.
> 

Re: Apt sources.list

[Dan Ritter]

pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote: 
> 
> Okay. Let's open this can of worms. The ONLY reason https is used on
> most sites is because Google *mandated* it years ago. ("Mandate" means
> we'll downgrade your search ranking if you don't use https.) There is
> otherwise no earthly reason to have an encrypted connection to a web
> server unless there is some exchange of private information between you
> and the server.

... and because Let's Encrypt made it relatively easy,
monetarily free, and automated.


> "insecure". Though, in truth, the integrity of Debian server contents
> wouldn't be changed in the slightest whether the connection was
> encrypted or not.


It's nice not to be telling everyone who can sniff a plaintext
connection which packages you are installing, and prevents those
people from trivially substituting trojan horses.

-dsr-

Re: Apt sources.list

[Tixy]

On Sat, 2023-04-15 at 08:11 -0400, pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote:
> Folks:
> 
> Here is my sources.list file:
> 
> ---
> 
> deb http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main contrib non-free
> deb-src http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main contrib non-free
> 
> deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security main
> contrib non-free deb-src http://security.debian.org/debian-security 
> bookworm-security main contrib non-free
> 
> ---
> 
> According to https://www.debian.org/releases/, bookworm at this time is
> "testing". But when the next release comes, bookworm will still be
> bookworm, but "testing" will be bookworm "plus". I'd like to follow
> testing, regardless of the status of Debian official releases.
> 
> So... in my sources.list, if I change "bookworm" to "testing", will it
> do that, and (other than the instabilities of testing) is there any
> liability to it?

Testing doesn't get explicit security support so there's no point in
having 'testing-security' lines in sources.list (I guess it'll give an
error anyway).

-- 
Tixy

Re: "Bug" in Debian Installer?

[Andrew Wood]

On 15/04/2023 14:12, Geert Stappers wrote:


Way before "grub install" should have been asked

On which disk to install

  
I do read "two devices were effected", I think it is the same error of



On which disk to install


If you mean did it install Debian on the NVme ssd then no, the Windows 
paritition was not touched.


I was able to restore the Windows bootloader from the Win 11 ISO command 
line and boot again. I could even boot Windows from the Grub menu having 
booted Grub from the USB, but with the USB removed the NVMe SSD just 
gave a Grub prompt.

Re: Apt sources.list

[paulf]

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 14:01:27 +0100
Alain D D Williams  wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 08:52:06AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 01:23:05PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > > On Sat 15 Apr 2023 at 08:11:17 -0400, pa...@quillandmouse.com
> > > wrote:
> > > > ---
> > > > 
> > > > deb http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main contrib
> > > > non-free deb-src http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm
> > > > main contrib non-free
> > > > 
> > > > deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security
> > > > bookworm-security main contrib non-free deb-src
> > > > http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security
> > > > main contrib non-free
> > > > 
> > > > ---
> 
> While we are talking about this, is there any reason why all the
> http: should not be https: ?
> 
> I have done this on my own machine without ill effect.
> 

Okay. Let's open this can of worms. The ONLY reason https is used on
most sites is because Google *mandated* it years ago. ("Mandate" means
we'll downgrade your search ranking if you don't use https.) There is
otherwise no earthly reason to have an encrypted connection to a web
server unless there is some exchange of private information between you
and the server.

Reading through all of Google's explanations, I've never seen a
satisfactory explanation for this change. With that in mind, I believe
the Debian gods did the right thing in leaving their web connections
"insecure". Though, in truth, the integrity of Debian server contents
wouldn't be changed in the slightest whether the connection was
encrypted or not.

Paul


-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

Re: "Bug" in Debian Installer?

[Jude DaShiell]

A s.w.a.g. here.  Priority of questions asked was not set to low in the
main menu.  I routinely change that to low when doing a debian install and
preserve logs for future reference.  Default priority if memory serves is
medium.


-- Jude  "There are four boxes to be used in
defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that
order." Ed Howdershelt 1940.

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023, Geert Stappers wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 10:36:14AM +0100, Andrew Wood wrote:
> > Ive just used the Debian 11 installer ISO running from a USB stick to do an
> > install (AMD64/UEFI) on another USB stick to use as a 'portable PC'.
> >
> > When it got to the Grub install stage I was expecting it to ask me which
> > disk I wanted Grub installed on as it has in the past but instead it did
> > not.
>
> Way before "grub install" should have been asked
>
>On which disk to install
>
>
> > When I came to reboot the PC I found not only had it put Grub on the USB it
> > had also put on the PCs NVMe SSD overwriting the Windows bootloader on
> > there.
>
> I do read "two devices were effected", I think it is the same error of
>
>
>On which disk to install
>
>
>
> > Surely it should have prompted which disk I wanted it on?
>
> Yes.  And it does. Normally.
>
>
> Please make it possible to reproduce what is encountered.
> Yeah, I would like to known what happened
> and I say right now there is not enough information to reproduce.
>
>
> Groeten
> Geert Stappers
>

Re: Apt sources.list

[Charles Curley]

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 14:01:27 +0100
Alain D D Williams  wrote:

> While we are talking about this, is there any reason why all the
> http: should not be https: ?
> 
> I have done this on my own machine without ill effect.

One reason is if one is using a local cache which does not inspect
https streams. Last I knew, such local caches included apt-cacher-ng.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Apt sources.list

[paulf]

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 13:23:05 +0100
Brian  wrote:

> On Sat 15 Apr 2023 at 08:11:17 -0400, pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote:
> 
> > Folks:
> > 
> > Here is my sources.list file:
> > 
> > ---
> > 
> > deb http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main contrib
> > non-free deb-src http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main
> > contrib non-free
> > 
> > deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security
> > main contrib non-free deb-src
> > http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security main
> > contrib non-free
> > 
> > ---
> > 
> > According to https://www.debian.org/releases/, bookworm at this
> > time is "testing". But when the next release comes, bookworm will
> > still be bookworm, but "testing" will be bookworm "plus". I'd like
> > to follow testing, regardless of the status of Debian official
> > releases.
> > 
> > So... in my sources.list, if I change "bookworm" to "testing", will
> > it do that, and (other than the instabilities of testing) is there
> > any liability to it?
> 
> bookworm to testing is exactly what you want.
> 

Thanks for your advice. I ran apt update with no issues.

-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

Re: Apt sources.list

[tomas]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 02:59:49PM +0100, Alain D D Williams wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 03:48:31PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 02:01:27PM +0100, Alain D D Williams wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > While we are talking about this, is there any reason why all the http: 
> > > should
> > > not be https: ?
> > 
> > It's just unnecessary CPU on the server, that's all.
> 
> That used to be the case many years ago. Modern CPUs have instructions that
> make it much quicker.

It may be /less/ than it used to be (what would interest me
is the overall energy consumption, joules/megabyte or so).
But it is nonzero.

And still, it's unnecessary.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Apt sources.list

[Alain D D Williams]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 03:48:31PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 02:01:27PM +0100, Alain D D Williams wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > While we are talking about this, is there any reason why all the http: 
> > should
> > not be https: ?
> 
> It's just unnecessary CPU on the server, that's all.

That used to be the case many years ago. Modern CPUs have instructions that
make it much quicker.

"On our production frontend machines, SSL/TLS accounts for less than 1% of the
CPU load, less than 10 KB of memory per connection and less than 2% of network
overhead."

https://istlsfastyet.com/

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT 
Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: 
https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
#include 

Re: Apt sources.list

[tomas]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 02:01:27PM +0100, Alain D D Williams wrote:

[...]

> While we are talking about this, is there any reason why all the http: should
> not be https: ?

It's just unnecessary CPU on the server, that's all.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Apt sources.list

[Alain D D Williams]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 08:52:06AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 01:23:05PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Sat 15 Apr 2023 at 08:11:17 -0400, pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote:
> > > ---
> > > 
> > > deb http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main contrib non-free
> > > deb-src http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main contrib non-free
> > > 
> > > deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security main
> > > contrib non-free deb-src http://security.debian.org/debian-security 
> > > bookworm-security main contrib non-free
> > > 
> > > ---

While we are talking about this, is there any reason why all the http: should
not be https: ?

I have done this on my own machine without ill effect.

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT 
Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  https://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: 
https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html
#include 

On strange threads [was: EPSON ET M 1120 new printer...]

[tomas]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 12:50:16PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

[...]

> Given the time pattern of posts and the lack of any learning progress
> in respect to proper asking Debian GNU/Linux questions i suspect that
> the mails from h...@hotmail.com are not sent with sincere intentions.

This is a pretty strong assessment. Coming from you, I hesitate to
dismiss it right away, but I'd still prefer to apply a healthy dose
of Hanlon's razor.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

is it possible to mount .gho file

[hl]

ghost is used to clone disk partition

it create .gho file, is it possible to mount it in linux?

Re: "Bug" in Debian Installer?

[Geert Stappers]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 10:36:14AM +0100, Andrew Wood wrote:
> Ive just used the Debian 11 installer ISO running from a USB stick to do an
> install (AMD64/UEFI) on another USB stick to use as a 'portable PC'.
> 
> When it got to the Grub install stage I was expecting it to ask me which
> disk I wanted Grub installed on as it has in the past but instead it did
> not.

Way before "grub install" should have been asked

   On which disk to install

 
> When I came to reboot the PC I found not only had it put Grub on the USB it
> had also put on the PCs NVMe SSD overwriting the Windows bootloader on
> there.

I do read "two devices were effected", I think it is the same error of


   On which disk to install


 
> Surely it should have prompted which disk I wanted it on?

Yes.  And it does. Normally.


Please make it possible to reproduce what is encountered.
Yeah, I would like to known what happened
and I say right now there is not enough information to reproduce.


Groeten
Geert Stappers
-- 
Silence is hard to parse

Re: Apt sources.list

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 01:23:05PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sat 15 Apr 2023 at 08:11:17 -0400, pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote:
> > ---
> > 
> > deb http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main contrib non-free
> > deb-src http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main contrib non-free
> > 
> > deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security main
> > contrib non-free deb-src http://security.debian.org/debian-security 
> > bookworm-security main contrib non-free
> > 
> > ---

> > I'd like to follow
> > testing, regardless of the status of Debian official releases.

> bookworm to testing is exactly what you want.

That, and adding the non-free-firmware section.

https://wiki.debian.org/NewInBookworm

Re: Bookworm: dash shell globs don't recognise [^...] to negate a character class

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 11:02:12AM +, davidson wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 Max Nikulin wrote:
> > The problem is to prevent history expansion while keeping pattern
> > matching (glob) active.
> > 
> >   du -ks -- .[!.]* | sort -n | tail
> 
> Are there versions of bash that exhibit history expansion in the
> example above?

Not that I've found.  I tried 3.2 and 2.05b and they're both fine.

unicorn:~$ bash-2.05b
unicorn:~$ set -H
unicorn:~$ !xyz
bash-2.05b: !xyz: event not found
unicorn:~$ du -ks -- .[!.]* | sort -n | tail
101208  .mozilla
136244  .t-engine
171952  .kolproxy
180180  .old-crufty-mozilla
222572  .local
442240  .vscode
991928  .config
1047780 .nuget
1476376 .cache
5798668 .steam

Re: Apt sources.list

[Brian]

On Sat 15 Apr 2023 at 08:11:17 -0400, pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote:

> Folks:
> 
> Here is my sources.list file:
> 
> ---
> 
> deb http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main contrib non-free
> deb-src http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main contrib non-free
> 
> deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security main
> contrib non-free deb-src http://security.debian.org/debian-security 
> bookworm-security main contrib non-free
> 
> ---
> 
> According to https://www.debian.org/releases/, bookworm at this time is
> "testing". But when the next release comes, bookworm will still be
> bookworm, but "testing" will be bookworm "plus". I'd like to follow
> testing, regardless of the status of Debian official releases.
> 
> So... in my sources.list, if I change "bookworm" to "testing", will it
> do that, and (other than the instabilities of testing) is there any
> liability to it?

bookworm to testing is exactly what you want.

-- 
Brian.

Apt sources.list

[paulf]

Folks:

Here is my sources.list file:

---

deb http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main contrib non-free
deb-src http://debian.uchicago.edu/debian/ bookworm main contrib non-free

deb http://security.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security main
contrib non-free deb-src http://security.debian.org/debian-security 
bookworm-security main contrib non-free

---

According to https://www.debian.org/releases/, bookworm at this time is
"testing". But when the next release comes, bookworm will still be
bookworm, but "testing" will be bookworm "plus". I'd like to follow
testing, regardless of the status of Debian official releases.

So... in my sources.list, if I change "bookworm" to "testing", will it
do that, and (other than the instabilities of testing) is there any
liability to it?

Paul


-- 
Paul M. Foster
Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com
Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com
Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster

Re: EPSON ET M 1120 new printer: If You can read this, you are using the wrong driver

[Brian]

On Fri 14 Apr 2023 at 18:33:26 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:

> >> The new printer is not  working.
> >> EPSON is saying
> >> You cant use EPSON with Linux.
> >> 
> >> Is this true?
> >
> > You could consider:
> >
> >   * Stating the Debain OS being used.
> >   * Giving the printer make and model.
> 
> "Subject:" says "EPSON ET M 1120"
> AFAICT it's a monochrome printer from 2019 with some kind of ink tank.
> Given the timescale, it probably supports driverless printing.

The EPSON ET M1120 does not come with enough intelligence to be certified
as AirPrintint-capable. Therefore, it may or may not be be a driverless
device. The printer would need to be queried and its attributes examined
to make a decision.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Debian Stretch : X server won't start after update

[Anssi Saari]

Charles Curley  writes:

> On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 19:41:37 +0100
> Brian  wrote:
>
>> I thought stretch is unsupported by Debian. Where did the update come
>> from?
>
> Stretch is oldoldstable, and under LTS support.

> https://www.debian.org/releases/

Actually LTS support for Stretch ended in mid-2022. ELTS is available
but it's paid support and probably the OP doesn't pay for that since he
doesn't want support. According to Debian's wiki at least and in this
case it seems to be the one that's up to date and the releases page is
not.

Re: EPSON ET M 1120 new printer: If You can read this, you are using the wrong driver

[Brian]

On Fri 14 Apr 2023 at 19:28:19 -0400, The Wanderer wrote:

> On 2023-04-14 at 19:17, Brian wrote:

[...]
 
> > That's an issue for the OP, not me.
> 
> Certainly. I was meaning that bullet-point item as an addendum to the
> list you provided (which I understand to have been aimed at the OP), not
> as something directed at you.

Apologies. I should have taken more notice of the structure of your mail.

-- 
Brian.

AW: EPSON ET M 1120 new printer: If You can read this, you are using the wrong driver

[Schwibinger Michael]

Good afternoon
I ll answer all emails.

Thank You.

The name of the printer
is

ET M 1120 EPSON

The wrong software is:

epson-inkjet-printer-escpr_1.7.25-1lsb3.2_amd64.deb



EPSON said
EPSON does not accept Linux.
Is this true?


Regards
Sophie



Von: David 
Gesendet: Freitag, 14. April 2023 21:30
An: debian-user@lists.debian.org 
Betreff: Re: EPSON ET M 1120 new printer: If You can read this, you are using 
the wrong driver

On Fri, 2023-04-14 at 14:40 +, Schwibinger Michael wrote:
> Good afternoon.
> The new printer is not  working.
> EPSON is saying
> You cant use EPSON with Linux.

It depends on which printer you are using?
It sounds like the person you are talking to at Epson doesn't know what
he/she's talking about.
Epson supply many Linux drivers for their printers on their site.
I have a WF-C5290 which works just fine that way.
Cheers!

Re: Commands service and systemctl.

[Anssi Saari]

pe...@easthope.ca writes:

> Does the relationship between service and systemctl parallel that
> between ifconfig and ip? service is a legacy command?

I guess that's one way of putting it.

Simply put, the systemctl command is for controlling systemd services.
The service is for running SysV init scripts.

Re: Bookworm: dash shell globs don't recognise [^...] to negate a character class

[davidson]

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 Max Nikulin wrote:

On 15/04/2023 12:02, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 11:02:03PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 09:44:03AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:

As to [^c] vs. [!c], unfortunately the latter can not be always used as
portable variant. It is treated as history expansion in the case of
interactive bash session.


Ugh.  That abomination.  I've had history expansion disabled for *years*.


You have to escape it with a backslash. Quoting with single quotes also
helps, although I don't know whether that is portable itself.


The problem is to prevent history expansion while keeping pattern matching 
(glob) active.


  du -ks -- .[!.]* | sort -n | tail


Are there versions of bash that exhibit history expansion in the
example above?

davidson@parsnip:0 ~$ bash --version # In case it matters
GNU bash, version 5.1.4(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later 

This is free software; you are free to change and redistribute it.
There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.
davidson@parsnip:0 ~$ echo $- $SHELLOPTS # History expansion enabled, 
interactive
himBHs braceexpand:emacs:hashall:histexpand:history:interactive-comments:monitor
davidson@parsnip:0 ~$ . .bash_functions/apt-description # Populate history
davidson@parsnip:0 ~$ whee!. # Demonstrate history expansion
whee. .bash_functions/apt-description
bash: whee.: command not found
davidson@parsnip:127 ~$ du -ks -- .[!.]* | sort -n | tail # No problem!
472 .keymap.new
816 .dvdcss
1544.config
1884.bash_history.d
3340.xsession-errors
19008   .lynx
66012   .mozilla
260528  .local
348360  .cache
980500  .cabal
davidson@parsnip:0 ~$

--
Hackers are free people. They are like artists. If they are in a good
mood, they get up in the morning and begin painting their pictures.
-- Vladimir Putin

Re: EPSON ET M 1120 new printer: If You can read this, you are using the wrong driver

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Bret Busby wrote:
> > Why not just everyone attack each other?
> > This looks like an uncontrolled pillow fight.

We should rather invest our time in a discussion whether CP/M was better
than DOS.


Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> in this instance, however, we've had a series of emails from this
> person in the past. [...]
> sniping doesn't really help at all. [...]
> We are all human and can get annoyed when someone just doesn't *get it*

But this particular poster is quite special.
About a year ago i too tried to help Sophie / Michael Schwibinger with
a question about "CD"
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2022/04/msg00742.html
but her/his replies in the thread caused me to ask for an explanation
why "Sophie" uses the mail address of a german amateur clown and IT
engineer, especially whether "Michael Schwibinger" is aware of this usage:
  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2022/04/msg00964.html
No reply was received.

Given the time pattern of posts and the lack of any learning progress
in respect to proper asking Debian GNU/Linux questions i suspect that
the mails from h...@hotmail.com are not sent with sincere intentions.
They rather look like somebody is bored from time to time and throws a
pebble into the pond just to watch the ripples.
Just look at the photo on
  https://hbss.tripod.com/

I may be wrong. But it would be easy for Sophie / Michael Schwibinger
to explain the circumstances, which she/he did not do up to now.
So i think it is currently not worth to quarrel over these mails.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Commands service and systemctl.

[Max Nikulin]

On 14/04/2023 22:05, peter wrote:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd has many occurrences of
"service", none referring to the service command.


See systemd.unit(5). Besides services, systemd has sockets, timers and
other unit types.


For several somethings, the result of command,
service something COMMAND
approximates the result of
systemctl COMMAND something.service
although systemctl might be more powerful.


Systemd may generate service units for scripts in /etc/init.d that do
not have their .service files. When systemd is running than the service
command should delegate operation to systemd that tracks states of
system services. So systemctl is native and more powerful in such case.

When SysV init is used than systemctl is not available. There are
even more subtle cases:

https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-handbook/unix-services.en.html
The Debian Administrator's Handbook
Chapter 9. Unix Services
9.1.2. The System V init system

DEBIAN POLICY Restarting services

The maintainer scripts for Debian packages will sometimes restart
certain services to ensure their availability or get them to take
certain options into account. The command that controls a service —
service service operation — doesn't take runlevel into consideration,
assumes (wrongly) that the service is currently being used, and may thus
initiate incorrect operations (starting a service that was deliberately
stopped, or stopping a service that is already stopped, etc.). Debian
therefore introduced the invoke-rc.d program: this program must be used
by maintainer scripts to run services initialization scripts and it will
only execute the necessary commands. Note that, contrary to common
usage, the .d suffix is used here in a program name, and not in a
directory. 


A specific init script might support operation that systemd is not aware 
of. I do think that you are fighting with portability issues, so use 
tool native to running init system.

Pillow fight [was: EPSON ET M 1120 ...]

[tomas]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 10:04:46AM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 07:17:23AM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> > Why not just everyone attack each other?
> > 
> > This looks like an uncontrolled pillow fight.

It does, indeed.

[...]

> Agreed: in this instance, however, we've had a series of emails from this 
> person in the past. Most of them don't reset a subject so go on a long time
> on various subjects in the same thread.

Seconded. For whatever reason, the OP can't do better. (S)he is known
to eventually come back on help proposals. Communication is sometimes
difficult. If that rubs you the wrong way, please just abstain.

Pouring vitriol on people should be saved for very specific cases. This
doesn't seem an appropriate one.

> That said: people - please remember that this list is subject to the Code
> of Conduct. Part of that involves being constructive and helpful: sniping
> doesn't really help at all.

Thanks. Fully agreed.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: EPSON ET M 1120 new printer: If You can read this, you are using the wrong driver

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 07:17:23AM +0800, Bret Busby wrote:
> Why not just everyone attack each other?
> 
> This looks like an uncontrolled pillow fight.
> 
> ..
> Bret Busby
> Armadale
> West Australia
> (UTC+0800)
> ..
>

Agreed: in this instance, however, we've had a series of emails from this 
person in the past. Most of them don't reset a subject so go on a long time
on various subjects in the same thread.

That said: people - please remember that this list is subject to the Code
of Conduct. Part of that involves being constructive and helpful: sniping
doesn't really help at all.

We are all human and can get annoyed when someone just doesn't *get it* 
but it's useful to remember that email is hard because you can't see
the circumstances of the person on the other end. That's also one of 
the reasons why these threads keep asking for technical details / accuracy:
whenever these sorts of questions get asked, we're using guesswork because
we can't see over your shoulder.

With every good wish, as ever,

Andy Cater
[amaca...@debian.org]

"Bug" in Debian Installer?

[Andrew Wood]

Ive just used the Debian 11 installer ISO running from a USB stick to do 
an install (AMD64/UEFI) on another USB stick to use as a 'portable PC'.


When it got to the Grub install stage I was expecting it to ask me which 
disk I wanted Grub installed on as it has in the past but instead it did 
not.


When I came to reboot the PC I found not only had it put Grub on the USB 
it had also put on the PCs NVMe SSD overwriting the Windows bootloader 
on there.


Surely it should have prompted which disk I wanted it on? I thought it 
was only Windows that trashed other peoples bootloaders ;)


Regards

Andrew

Re: Bookworm: dash shell globs don't recognise [^...] to negate a character class

[tomas]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 01:14:53PM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 15/04/2023 12:02, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 11:02:03PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 09:44:03AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> > > > As to [^c] vs. [!c], unfortunately the latter can not be always used as
> > > > portable variant. It is treated as history expansion in the case of
> > > > interactive bash session.
> > > 
> > > Ugh.  That abomination.  I've had history expansion disabled for *years*.
> > 
> > You have to escape it with a backslash. Quoting with single quotes also
> > helps, although I don't know whether that is portable itself.
> 
> The problem is to prevent history expansion while keeping pattern matching
> (glob) active.
> 
>du -ks -- .[!.]* | sort -n | tail

I see, thanks

Cheers
-- 
t


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