Re: Re: Modem Net Access.
O.K., Kent and Celejar. Sorry for the delay, but I've got to shutdown, remove the drive, put another in, reboot, install gpmand then hit the logs to find any discrepancies anywhere. Type up what I find, then do the procedure in reverse. Anyway, here I am: Nothing I can spot in syslog. The kernal picks up the one and only serial port on boot -I'm running a 6400+ on an Asus M3A, so it's only got the one serial port and just one IDE channel. And everything looks alright all the way through the ppp connect procedure also. ifconfig -a? I did before, and after connect, to see what holes there might be in the bucket. Juggernaut:/home/weaver# ifconfig -a Io Link encap:Local Loopback inet addr: 127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:16436 Metric:1 RX packets:258 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets: 258 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 RX bytes:37617 (36.7 KiB) TX bytes:37617 (36.7 KiB) sit0 Link encap:IPv6-in-IPv4 NOARP MTU:1480 Metric:1 RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 RX bytes:0 (0.0 b) TX bytes:0 (0.0 b) Juggernaut:/home/weaver#pon Juggernaut:/home/weaver#ifconfig -a Juggernaut:/home/weaver# So, the connection is there the apps just can't access it. I think we're back to config somewhere. Regards and thanks for any further suggestions, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: howto post configure a debian installation
On Thu, 2008-09-18 at 17:12 +0530, Santanu Chatterjee wrote: snip I know that there is a command to setup certain aspects of a debian installation _after_ the installation. I just cannot remember the name of that command right now. Please help. Thanks in advance. I did use it a long time ago. Something like baseconfig? Regards, David Palmer. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Buying debian compatible laptop.
Bob wrote: I'm looking for a laptop with a dual core AMD64 CPU, AMD GPU with dedicated (non-shared) GRAM, built in webcam, user changeable Harddrive battery, high RAM capacity, large high quality screen, a nice keyboard and good linux support for all the power saving, suspends, wifi etc I'd also like it to have DVI, SPDIF, USB2, FireWire, jumbo frame GbE, Infrared and eSATA ports Has anyone seen one? At present, I'm looking (but only looking), at the M59 SLI here: http://www.pioneercomputers.com.au/products/products.asp?c1=3c2=15 Regards, David Palmer. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Colours in VIM-AbiWord
Paul Cartwright wrote: On Mon February 4 2008, Ron Johnson wrote: AbiWord is much lighter smaller than OOo. I saw AbiWord when I installed ... another distro ( Pu..y ...) but I never used it. is abiword just a word processor, as opposed to a full suite, like OO ?? does it do .DOC conversion? smaller lighter normally means less features. But I really don't use THAT many features of OO.. Abiword is a word processor and very competent. It will take in Word Docs and process modify them, but I find that saving everything as RTF means that anybody can open them no matter what processor they use. Gnumeric is all you need for spreadsheeting - install all the optional extras, plugins, doc files, etc., and the combination of both of them are all that a small office requires for the majority of work. If you need something to handle presentation work, install Scribus. I also use Xfig to create process control, haccp charts, etc. Everything loads quickly and no functionality is lost, at least, not any that 98% of the population would require. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Modem in Debian
A. F. Cano wrote: On Sun, Feb 03, 2008 at 04:14:16PM -0500, Douglas A. Tutty wrote: On Sun, Feb 03, 2008 at 08:16:57PM +, Pantor wrote: there is a modem plugged to PCI slot and no idea what to do with it. Any suggestions, advices, please. Use it to dialup into the internet like real people :) Or, like I do, assuming it's a voice modem, configure it as an answering machine. I use mgetty/vgetty. You can even run asterisk and have a voice mail system like businesses do. In my case, when I get an answering machine message, it gets encoded and sent to my local mailbox. I read it with mutt and hear the message like any multi-media email message. Then I delete it or save it like any email message. Or provide yourself with a fax facility. Regards, David Palmer. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: exim4 localhost prefix problem
Jude DaShiell wrote: I got the following error messageError sending: No such host as localhostoutgoing.verizon.net] It looks like strange terminology to me, but you may need a fullstop/period between localhost and outgoing. As in: localhost.outgoing.verizon.net Regards, David Palmer. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: low-MHz server
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:31:34 +1000 Julian De Marchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Any suggestions for good old boxes like this that will run modern Debian or OpenBSD and be reasonably reliable? I generally hang around the rubbish bins of the local primary schools at budget time. Last time I scored two 486s and three pentium 1s for nothing. Good for firewalls and mail servers, or just mucking around. Regards, David Palmer. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: random mouse hangs
On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:20:37 -0500 Tom Vier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm running etch on amd64. The last few weeks, my mouse would stop responding for a few seconds. I switched to another mouse - same thing. Now i have to unplug (it's usb) and plug it back in to get the pointer to move again. I've tried 3 different usb ports. Keyboard works fine the whole time. It seems like a software problem, but it's not happening on my home machine (also running etch on amd64). It looks like a config problem, which happens with usb mice. Are there any other aspects? Is gpm involved? Two ways to fix it: Adjust config of xserver-xorg; Install gpm, which isn't a bad idea anyway, and the config of that gives comprehensive treatment of usb mice. Regards, -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: upgrading X in sid
On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:05:06 -0800 Kelly Clowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 28, 2008 8:06 AM, Kelly Clowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 28, 2008 6:29 AM, charlie derr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a laptop with a native resolution of 1900x1200 which has been working fine for the past year an a half. This weekend I upgraded (which included both X and kde) in unstable/sid and now I find that my X session is being rendered (according to xvidtune) at 1680x1050 What's odd is that the relevant section from /etc/X11/xorg.conf (pasted below) wouldn't seem to allow that. Anyone know what's going on? The only explanation that makes sense to me is that Xorg now directly queries the graphics subsystem and essentially ignores what's been set in xorg.conf. I'm definitely interested in knowing how to get back the full 1900x1200 resolution. Here is what part of my xorg.conf looks like: Section Monitor Identifier G90f-2 Option DPMS Option PreferredMode 1600x1200 EndSection Section Screen Identifier Default Screen Device ATI RV350 AS [Radeon 9550] Monitor G90f-2 DefaultDepth24 SubSection Display #Modes 1600x1200 1280x1024 1024x768 800x600 I'd say this is the problem. It looks like a bug, so should be reported, but if you remove the Hash # your card should pick up on the first option. It's obvious that's what you've selected, but transfer to config hasn't been clean, and xserver-xorg has opted for a 'safe' optimal. Regards, -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Trying to get on the web with wvdial.
On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:45:08 -0600 John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Palmer writes: [Wvdial] is handy for a newbie. Only when it works. Oh, I can remember when it didn't, don't worry. But that was a couple of years back. I thought I'd give it another try and lo and behold, it performed the way it was supposed to two years ago. Regards, David Palmer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Trying to get on the web with wvdial.
On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 21:52:29 -0600 Russell L. Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Geosand [EMAIL PROTECTED] [080128 20:49]: ... (RE wvdial) ... Because it does all the config for you. I used it for the first time the other day - installing a modem for fax. It did it all in the install procedure, detected the serial port the modem was on, installed the strings, ready to go. If your only need for a POTS (plain old telephone service) modem is to send and receive faxes, wvdial is not required. No, but I need the modem to update/upgrade also. Regards, David Palmer. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Brief question as to the Linux kernel in use in the Stable version of Etch
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 08:41:43 +0100 Sven Joachim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2008-01-27 08:23 +0100, David Palmer wrote: On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:48:52 -0500 dick thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My ethernet adapter is an ATTANSIC Gigabyte L1 (also released since the takeover of ATTANSIC by ATHEROS as the ATHEROS Gigabyte L1. From what I have been able to find out the earliest kernel supporting this adapter is the 2.6.22. Then you need to upgrade to the 'lenny' distribution. Or depending on what you are running, even SID. That's my standard desktop now. Please stop giving such clueless and *totally wrong* advice. No it isn't. I find sid a much better option than testing. The fixes, those that are required, arrive a lot more quickly. It is perfectly possible (and in fact very easy) to just install a new kernel and keep the rest of the system at the stable version. Why would he want to do that? Unless I severely misjudge the situation, he's looking for a desktop. As a desktop, stable answers to the same description that the OP used to describe the kernel - out dated. Debian stable is known for that. clueless and *totally wrong* advice looks like a classic example of Freudian transference from my perception. Regards, David Palmer. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Brief question as to the Linux kernel in use in the Stable version of Etch
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:48:52 -0500 dick thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have looked all through the info and the best I can find is that Etch uses version 2.6.18 of the Linux kernel. Right! Are you running a mission critical server? My ethernet adapter is an ATTANSIC Gigabyte L1 (also released since the takeover of ATTANSIC by ATHEROS as the ATHEROS Gigabyte L1. From what I have been able to find out the earliest kernel supporting this adapter is the 2.6.22. Then you need to upgrade to the 'lenny' distribution. Or depending on what you are running, even SID. That's my standard desktop now. That is the reason I am asking as I would like to take a good look at Debian but if I can't connect to the ethernet with it then it is useless to me. Stable is excellent for running servers and for the kind of staid personality that still has tea and scones with his maiden aunts every Sunday afternoon at the age of forty. And he makes the scones. Live a little Thanks in advance. No worries. Regards, David Palmer. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Creative Commons Metamorphosis
There's a new style of licence happening at Creative Commons. It is typified by the policy of attempting to meld closed and open source, particularly in relation to software. Is this where this project was heading all along? This same proposition is one that has been previously touted by such entities as Microsoft. http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/4368 Since when have the products of open source been unavailable to the commercial sphere anyway? Ventures of this nature have the potential to cloud the middle ground, and compromise the legal status of standards such as the GPL. This may well be the strategy involved. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Fwd: New Bitstream technology comes to Linux and Desktop/LX]
This is a newsletter from the Lycoris Linux commercial distribution, concerning something new in font/font management. I'm not aware of the licencing details (I would be very surprised if it could be classified as 'free'). Point the first. Point the second: There seems to be an ever accelerating interest in the proprietary section toward incorporating free/open source software into hybrid environments. This has a double implication for me - (1) Proprietary vendors wanting to incorporate FOSS to extend and enhance marketability of their product/s. (2) The possibility of proprietary interests incorporating FOSS into their productline, and then by way of this assuming a legal posture in the possession aspect. Point the third: Lycoris is based on a Caldera base, and I'm not sure how this would stand with the SCO situation. But it looks good, as all dangerous toys do, so I thought that it might be of interest anyway. Regards, David. -Forwarded Message- From: Lycoris Newsletters [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: New Bitstream technology comes to Linux and Desktop/LX Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 03:06:34 -0700 New Font Technology Comes to Linux - only in Desktop/LX 1.4 Dear Lycoris Customer, We normally don't send our press releases out to our userbase. We're going to make an exception this one time. This is such groundbreaking news in Linux that we just felt we had to share it with you. We have teamed up with Bitstream to bring new font rendering technology to Linux. We are replacing Freetype in Desktop/LX 1.4 with a new technology called btX2. btX2 is a font rendering system including the Font Fusion rendering engine that is the fastest in the world, and includes unequaled hinting technology. What does this mean for our users? Quite simply the fastest and best-looking font experience available in Linux. If this were something that other companies offered, you'd only see our usual set of announcements. However, this is the very first time something like this has been done in the Linux desktop arena, and we felt you'd want to know about it. Desktop/LX 1.4 is going to be setting the pace yet once again. Clearer fonts, and faster page window rendering with btX2 will be just one of the great featuresets! Desktop/LX is the first company to use this great technology on the Linux desktop. Our press release about this is below. You can see for yourself why we're proud to call Bitstream a preferred technology partner. You can also see our Sneak Peek series of webpages, announcing new features and things you'll be seeing in Desktop/LX 1.4. Technical specifications, project capabilities and more are below. Best regards, The Lycoris Team Lycoris Licenses btX2 Font Engine from Bitstream Leader in Linux desktop consumer market to bring high-quality font rendering and character hinting to Linux MAPLE VALLEY, WA and CAMBRIDGE, MA - June 10, 2004 - Lycoris and Bitstream Inc. (NASDAQ: BITS) announced today that Lycoris will license the btX2 font rendering engine and a core set of 13 delta-hinted screen fonts from Bitstream for its entire product line, including Desktop/LX Personal, Desktop/LX InterConnect, and Desktop/LX Tablet Edition, replacing the current Freetype system. Lycoris commitment to desktop usability extends even to the font rendering system, said Joseph Cheek, CEO of Lycoris. The inclusion of the additional set of core fonts, as well as the btX2 font engine, gives our users enhanced viewing capabilities. We are excited to partner with industry powerhouse Bitstream to ensure that our users experiences with our products are not just enjoyable, but exceptional. btX2 gives Linux developers a complete solution in one license agreement from one vendor, said Anna Chagnon, President and CEO of Bitstream. Were trying to make it easier for developers to bring a great look-and-feel to the Linux desktop. Users have been spoiled by what theyve seen on other desktop systems, and are demanding smooth, clear text that is easy to read. Now they can get this solution from Lycoris. Its a pleasure working with the leader in the Linux desktop consumer market. The engineering team at Lycoris has been outstanding, stated Shawn Flynn, Senior Software Engineer of Bitstream. We were able to work together on issues surrounding btX2, and solve them immediately. Our engineering team made certain that Lycoris was able to take advantage of btX2s support for native TrueType hinting and anti-aliasing, as these were critical factors in bringing readability to Desktop/LX. About btX2 Key Features * Provides high-quality text rendering, fine-tuned for the output device * Scales characters on the fly * Renders native hints, which retain distinguishing character features * Smooths jagged character edges using anti-aliasing technology * Supports multilingual fonts, including two-byte character sets * Supports Unicode and native encodings Core Set of 13
Re: WAS A good book on C programming, now an APPOLOGY
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:45:15 -0600 Alex Malinovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2003-12-27 at 15:43, Gavin Henry wrote: --snip-- What is Fedora then? --snip-- Fedora is for people who don't know any better. Those who do know better, of course, use Debian. :) And not to imply that some frequenters of other GNU/Linux distro lists are arrogant assholes of course (though they are :), anyone who flames you for asking about this is not a GNU/Linux list should be shot. I honestly don't believe that you'd ever get that sort of a response on this list. In my 2 years on this list, I've seen some of the nicest, kindest, and most helpful people anywhere. Unfortunately, in the world of GNU/Linux, this seems to be the exception, and not the rule. (And I'm sure RMS would be grinning ear-to-ear if he saw all these references to GNU/Linux instead of just plain old Linux. :) Again, sorry to waste everyones time, but you have all helped me out. No need to apologize to us. I don't want to speak for the whole list, but I found the thread quite useful actually. :) So did I. After Python or/and Ruby, and then maybe lisp for something different, I'm looking at C++ myself. I've now got a 'Programming'mail folder full of book references, with the odd ISBN even. Thanks for asking the question. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting w/ dual CPUs hangs
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:00:08 -0600 Jeffrey L. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Greg Madden [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 27 December 2003 06:36 pm, Greg Madden wrote: On Saturday 27 December 2003 02:28 pm, Jeffrey L. Taylor wrote: I have a box with a Tyan Thunder dual CPU MB. The two CPUs I have are both 300MHz Pentium IIs. But one is a Deschutes step 2 and the other a Klamath step 4. Both work when they are the only CPU, but booting with both installed hangs just after the NRG is initialized and Recovering nvi editor sessions. This is when init starts. Do I need to get matching CPUs? Or is there something else I need to do. The kernel is stock 2.4.18-1-686-smp from debian.org. TIA, Jeffrey http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/19981215/sl2w8-01.html Sorry about the brevity, I think the cpu's need to be the same or at least the same core to do dual. Some docs mention matching cpu's (stepping) but my somewhat limited experience indicates the same core will do it. - -- Greg Madden Thank you for both e-mails. The Deschutes and Klamath core look very different. After reading the Toms Hardware article, I am not surprised that running dual doesn't work. I am pleasantly surprised that both CPUs work in UP mode. It also looks like I am better off running the Deschutes. Should run cooler, and possibly give better performance. You could also put a couple of Athlon 2000s on that board. It was actually made with AMD in mind, specifically MP processors, but in actual fact there is very little difference between the Athlon and the MP. The Athlon has a config turned off, but if you know what you are doing, apparently you can switch that back on too, if you need it. That would really make that board hum. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Booting w/ dual CPUs hangs
On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 03:37:00 -0600 Jeffrey L. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting David Palmer. [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You could also put a couple of Athlon 2000s on that board. It was actually made with AMD in mind, specifically MP processors, but in actual fact there is very little difference between the Athlon and the MP. The Athlon has a config turned off, but if you know what you are doing, apparently you can switch that back on too, if you need it. That would really make that board hum. Regards, David. The MB is a Tyan Thunder 2 S1696D (http://www17.tomshardware.com/motherboard/19971028/440lx-09.html) for Pentium IIs from Fall 1997. My CPUs are 300MHz. I seriously doubt it will run Athlons, especially at 1.7GHz. But I'm willing to be convinced. Jeffrey Sorry. Talking through a hole in my head. I didn't even see the thunder, and was referring to the tiger. Apologies. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: debian on my athlon?
On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:01:20 -0600 Forest Fisher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just got a new laptop for x-mas that runs on an AMD Athlon XP-M processor. It's a new processor designed specifically to minimize energy use for laptops. I was hoping to run Debian GNU/Linux on my laptop, but the official website indicates that the latest release is not built for the Athlon architecture. Nonetheless, there are other webpages claiming to have athlon builders. I'm a newbie, and it's not clear to me what an Athlon Builder really is. Does this mean that if I download the Athlon Builder I can run Debian on my system or is this processor simply not supported by Debian? Finally, if Athlon processors aren't supported by Debian, does anyone know another GNU/Linux OS that I could run on my system. Thanks a bunch, Forest Hello Forest, There's no problem with running Debian on an Athlon CPU. That's what I and a lot of other people are doing, and no problems are being experienced. The architecture in the documentation specifies Intel, but for newbies like us, this can be misleading. What I should seriously suggest you do is go here:- http://www.libranet.com/ and purchase Libranet 2.8.1 which is a stable mix of Debian stable and sarge releases, for a trouble free introduction into the Debian realm and go from there. It's what I have done, and I am convinced that until the Debian installer project matures, that it is the path that all Debian newbies are better off travelling. Libranet also now has onsite forum facilities to help with any problems you may experience. Also, if you would kindly adjust your word-wrap setting in your email configuration settings to 72 characters, I am sure that other list users would greatly appreciate it. Merry Xmas. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: network install via dialup?
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 11:52:06 -0700 s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Incoming from James Miller: I'm thinking of recommending Debian to someone who has only a dialin connection to the 'net. For various reasons, a network install would be Isn't cheapbytes still out there? The last time I bought from them, shipping cost more than the disks. Alternatively, can't you get access to a machine with adsl/cable and a burner? That way, your someone will have disks. Yes, it's possible. No, it's not much fun. I just did an apt-get upgrade and it tied up my phone for days. My last dist-upgrade took 36 hours. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Any Linux-oriented hardware-review sites?
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:42:15 -0600 Hugo Vanwoerkom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Roberto Sanchez wrote: Kent West wrote: Roberto Sanchez wrote: Kent West wrote: snip The nForce is the mobo chipset (not the graphics chip). If I had it to do over, I would get an AMD (which I already have) a mobo with VIA chipset and no onboard anything (except maybe sound, since that is not so important to me). Also, the onboard nForce takes a proprietary binary-only driver to work. The nForce2 sound (a modified i810) is pretty decent. -Roberto I would like a mobo that uses memory that I now have in this KT7A mobo (Type:168pin SDRAM DIMM 256MB) *and* AMD, like you say, *and* VIA chipsets *and no onboard anything* *but* thermal control that allows for the fan to be turned off when not needed. Anybody know of that combination or where to search for it? I usually look at Newegg, which is very complete but no Linux of course... Hugo. What I do is go to the AMD site, reference the CPU I'm interested in, and then explore all the recommended accesories that AMD have linked. You should have plenty of choice from there. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Any Linux-oriented hardware-review sites?
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:55:48 -0500 Roberto Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kent West wrote: Roberto Sanchez wrote: Kent West wrote: Anyone know of any hardware-review sites from a Linux perspective? I'm looking to buy a replacement motherboard . . . . I can tell you that there are currently unresolvod issues with the timing on an AMD/nForce combination. There are patches available, but it gets to be a pain after while if you want to upgrade the kernel. -Roberto So you're suggesting I stay away from boards with nForce chipsets? from nForce video cards? both? The nForce is the mobo chipset (not the graphics chip). If I had it to do over, I would get an AMD (which I already have) a mobo with VIA chipset and no onboard anything (except maybe sound, since that is not so important to me). Also, the onboard nForce takes a proprietary binary-only driver to work. The nForce2 sound (a modified i810) is pretty decent. -Roberto The GNU-Darwin crowd advocate AMD built on Via also. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need install help -mig from RedHat to Debian
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 04:35:43 -0800 Gruessle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Hello, I hat problems installing my mouse, video card and monitor with Debian So what I did is I installed RedHat and got the config for those: Monitor: DDC Probed Monitor = Compac V70 Horizontal (30-69) Vertical (50-125) You will probably also need a resolution setting, here. Video Card: RIVA TNT2 with 4MB or NIVDIA RIVA TNT2 (Generic) with 4MB As far as I am aware, this card is specified as 32MB Mouse: PS/2 with roller So how do I select the right stuff now at Debian? Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Easing the load.
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:25:11 -0500 Paul Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:16:05 +0800, David Palmer. wrote: [snip] Perhaps you'll follow your own advice and seek three votes to throw yourself off the list for your inability to use line wrap. Well, maybe this time I forgot it. But if that is all the reply you have, I wouldn't be making a public exhibition of my mentality. As I have said before, 'Any idiot can be destructive, It takes a mature human being to be creative.' Grow up on your own time. Regards, David. -- paul Do the little things (Gwnewch y pethau bychain) St. David (Dewi Sant) of Wales, last sermon, Sunday 27th February 589 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Easing the load.
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:35:58 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Dec 14, 2003 at 07:48:26AM -0600, Hoyt Bailey wrote: - Original Message - From: David Palmer. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 23:16 Subject: Re: Easing the load. On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:16:24 -0500 Paul Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:50:15 +0800, David Palmer wrote: I think the solution to the server down, need answer NOW issue is: 1. Ask on the #debian IRC channel 2. Get better at refining Google searches. 3. Use professional support services. I agree with David if the posting dosent reflect a Tech. approch to the subject then it shouldnt be on this list. Hoyt so your post here shouldn't actually be on the list? i mean, technically speaking, it's hardly reflective of a technical approach to the subject to merely announce your agreement with the previous post, is it? as for david's 3 points, though i'm sure he means well, i would be very disappointed to see anyone receive those as a response to a genuine query on this list. while independent inititiative is well recommended, the latent discouragement in that response is not reflective of this community and would do it no positive service whatsoever. ben Thank you, Ben, but that is actually an incorrect attribution that you are referring to. These three points were all the recourse that Paul Morgan was prepared to concede to a Debian sys. admin in trouble. The point I made in the original post was in accord with your statement with the endorsement of the community factor. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Easing the load.
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:16:24 -0500 Paul Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:50:15 +0800, David Palmer wrote: I have seen what I believe is a need for an additional mailing list, not so much for the benefit of the developers' list, but most definitely for the sake of sanity on debian-user. I have posted to curiosain recognition of their patience with an O.T. situation. [snip] As a migration point for O.T. threads that are creating a distraction within the main lists. There are two aspects to this:- (1). The distracting, disruptive influence just stated, and (2). The carry over and clutter created within the corresponding archive. The last thing a busy admin needs when a server is down, and she requires the answer to a problem, is to have to wade through a tide of irrelevant flotsam and jetsam. Having the facility of a list of this nature would have the effect of really cleaning up the archives. Non productive O.T. threads could, with the consensus of three other list members (to avoid personality clash scenarios) for example, could be migrated to the proposed list, leaving the main list to proceed productively, maintaining the integrity of the archive. If the thread becomes too off the wall for the new list, and after an initial negotiation fails, the personality(ies) could be unsubscribed. I believe the new list could be as productively essential as any other in its' own way, I do not see it as the dumping ground for the collective Debian effluviant, just a little further down the alimentary tract perhaps ; [snip] So, you are wanting debian-user to become a moderated list, basically. Yes, moderated by the list members as it always has been. What if there are three other list members who *don't* want the thread to be migrated? Here we have the present problem. Terminate the thread, take it to private mail, or persist with the thread on Debian-User to the detriment of the list, associated archive, and the generation of ill-will within the community. If there are personalities who wish to persist in a destructive behaviour pattern, they will do so. But if they have an alternative venue, they will have less justification for their persistence and will generally accept the alternative. Those that don't, probably would have difficulty coordinating in any social setting, with a corresponding inability to contribute to, rather than take from, that environment. I think that the whole idea is unworkable, There would appear to be a number of people that disagree with your somewhat negative viewpoint. and, anyway, for the most part, I enjoy the OT threads, although I resist (mostly) the temptation to add to them. There's nothing wrong with enjoying them, the only objection would appear to be the appropriateness of the setting. In the right setting, there would be no need to resist participation, dive in, make a pig of yourself. If one is an admin with a critical server down, maybe one ought to be engaging the services of a support professional. (I know they're not your exact words, but Critical server down implies a business or commercial service, and one maybe shouldn't be relying on free advice to support that.) We appear to differ here, also. Just because an admin isn't currently on the list, doesn't mean that they are not part of the community. The Debian community is planet-wide, even bigger. I don't have the details to hand, but the current Mars probe is running on Linux, which particular flavour, I wouldn't know, but maybe it's Debian. The whole concept of community revolves around mutual support. A support professional? Which particular aspect of the social/professional spectrum do you fondly imagine a system administrator is native to? We need as many Debian servers up and running in the professional environment as we can possibly manage, and if we have a Debian sys. admin. call in with a question, and I had the answer, she could have it for free. And I hope she makes a lot of money out of it, because the more professional Debian systems/admins we have operating, reduces the number of microsoft ones we have to put up with. Who would you call in? A M.C.S.E? The idea of moderating a list by the three people don't like the thread method, This has never been the issue. There are a number of threads on Debian-User that I 'don't like.' That doesn't mean that they don't have a place on the list. I repeat, the situation, aside from the smackhead drivel which has no application anywhere, is the right thread in the wrong environment. and of moving threads, If the thread is inappropriate to the environment, it would appear to me that moving it to an applicable
Re: Can we tag [T]echnical posts?
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:20:07 -0700 s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Incoming from Monique Y. Herman: There is absolutely a learning curve to every community, and long-standing members deservedly get more respect and slack. I do think that I've been lurking and posting long enough to have a sense of the community. I don't think that's possible. Between the range of Rick Moen (consummate diplomat and highly reasoned thinker) through Peter T. Brewer (curmudgeonly SOB), it's a pretty wide field. Both of those are well worth reading when you run into them. Simpler is just to press the d key when your buttons get pushed. Yes, it has a certain therapeutic value, too. But Sergeant-of-arms of an online community? Please, do it in the privacy of your own bedroom. That sort of fantasy would hold pride of place in any of the O.T. threads that I have seen here. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Easing the load.
I have seen what I believe is a need for an additional mailing list, not so much for the benefit of the developers' list, but most definitely for the sake of sanity on debian-user. I have posted to curiosain recognition of their patience with an O.T. situation. The following layout is for initial discussion only,pending the full application being tendered as a wishlist bug report. Thanking you for your attention. Mailing List Request. Basic Purpose:- For this list, is multi-part. A need is seen, within the context of Debian, for a repository for all discussions and notifications that are not list specific. It could be argued here that if a subject is not list-specific, it has no place in the list. Allow me to supply some examples:- A notification on Debian-User of a new worm variant that sys. admins on the list require notice of, as they are running Debian servers supporting windows boxes also munging the mail headers/filters of the developer who is on the list to supply advice; Discussions that become O.T., that although they are not technical in nature enhance and enforce the community nature of Debian. They occur, so therefore members feel the need for the interaction, this would strengthen the community as a community. This is especially noticeable on lists with a broad spectrum sociological diversity such as Debian -User. I am not referring here, to the inconsequential drivel that arises from those entities that require a stage to prance on with a captive audience to assuage the requirements imposed by attention deficiency, there have been conversations initiated within the disciplines of philosophy and psychology/sociology, for example, and it is to these I refer. The other variety would get as short shrift on the new list as being as unproductive as they are in any other environment. There are many highly qualified people in the community, physicists, mathematicians, et al, who, if they had the option of taking part in non-debian discussion, could ironically generate new directions within Debian. For example, there are a number of packages of a mathematical nature within the Debian programme, these could well be collated into a sub-project. The type of list structure that I advocate conceivably forming a wellspring for projects of this nature; As a migration point for O.T. threads that are creating a distraction within the main lists. There are two aspects to this:- (1). The distracting, disruptive influence just stated, and (2). The carry over and clutter created within the corresponding archive. The last thing a busy admin needs when a server is down, and she requires the answer to a problem, is to have to wade through a tide of irrelevant flotsam and jetsam. Having the facility of a list of this nature would have the effect of really cleaning up the archives. Non productive O.T. threads could, with the consensus of three other list members (to avoid personality clash scenarios) for example, could be migrated to the proposed list, leaving the main list to proceed productively, maintaining the integrity of the archive. If the thread becomes too off the wall for the new list, and after an initial negotiation fails, the personality(ies) could be unsubscribed. I believe the new list could be as productively essential as any other in its' own way, I do not see it as the dumping ground for the collective Debian effluviant, just a little further down the alimentary tract perhaps ; As a repository for, and discussion arena of current news and affairs relevant to our industry, e.g., Microsofts' latest strategy, SCOs' gymnastics, the latest W.S.I.S. Conference moves, and etc. Debian is a community, but as such is also part of the greater community and not isolated from it. This world awareness could subtly enhance a wide number of Debian community aspects from programming direction to security. It would also create a resource for such entities as Debian Weekly; There are other things that could be put forward as viable reasons for the establishment of a list of this nature. I have only elaborated to the extent that I have to illustrate the productive potential of this venture, and the associated value it could present to the Debian project, so as to avoid the hasty labeling of the situation as 'vanity or offtopic.' Interested Audience. I'm sure that the number of O.T. threads in the lists are indicative of the ability of this new list to
Re: Debian for Dual Opterons...
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:51:17 -0600 Michael Kahle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone tried installed Debian on a dual Opteron system? I am thinking of building a new server based on this technology, any thoughts? Would I use the IA64 branch? Hello Michael, Here is the mailing list:- [EMAIL PROTECTED] And here is the wiki:- http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?debian-amd64 Which will give you a couple of other links including download. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux is not for consumers!
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:50:11 -0500 H. S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul E Condon wrote: Documenting software is like writing a good text book. The author must get in touch with his inner Dummy and speak to his needs. Some geeks have this ability, but many do not. This is *so* true!! And the troubling part is they simply refuse to understand this. -HS They simply don't want to. I'm still considering taking up doc writing myself. I've started a thread at another site to deal with basics for other newbies like myself. If you request help, terminologies like 'chown' and chmode' or somesuch are thrown at you without any effort toward fuller explanation, and it goes further than assumption through long familiarity, there is some sort of supercilious ego factor involved also. This is not right across the board. There are some genuinely helpful personalities, but the incidence is high. This is not an opportunity to condescendingly assume that this is an incidence of some newbie demanding a spoonfed situation, I haven't got where I am in life through charity reliance, I enjoy doing my own research. All I am doing is pointing out that this attitude is diametrically opposed to the terminology 'community.' Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux is not for consumers!
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:21:01 -0700 Nate Duehr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Palmer. wrote: If you request help, terminologies like 'chown' and chmode' or somesuch are thrown at you without any effort toward fuller explanation, and it goes further than assumption through long familiarity, there is some sort of supercilious ego factor involved also. Or the assumption by the more experienced, who know that that your problem was far enough advanced that if you skipped the basics like filesystem manipulation you'd better be ready to fire up man chown yourself and back up and ask THAT question first? :-) Sorry, Nate, this doesn't apply. There is no set routine to what you learn first in Debian, or any other branch of Linux. File system manipulation? I wouldn't know the first thing about it. I don't want Nautilus or Konqueror, that sort of GUI system is too much like windows, and not what I came here for. How is a newbie supposed to know what to learn first? There's no discernable learning structure. It's to the point now, where I just lurk on the lists, because after a previous learning process with hardware, I know that terminologies, given time, will sink in, or you catch up with them in the learning process, and you place them into context. Ocassionally there will be a bit of interaction of this nature, but generally now the only time I speak up, is when another newbie arrives on the list and asks for something I know about. I've just done that for someone who needed to know about 64Bit SMP. But that's it. Which is crazy, because I take knowledge in like a sponge, and I should already be in a position to provide a higher level of feedback than I do. The fastest learning track I have found with Debian, is books. I've bought the Debian/GNULinux Bible by Steve Hunger which has a potato disc in the back of it, which I am going to install on a couple of old 486 desktops, one for a mail server, and the other for a standalone firewall (Bastille), and then upgrade them. I've also just got hold of Rod Smiths' 'Linux Powertools,' with a quick read through, that looks very useful, I've got a couple of others on the way as well, among them is 'Rute Guide and Exposition', but as far as the learning process goes, the list is a very minor part of it all. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux is not for consumers!
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:36:32 -0700 Thanasis Kinias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: scripsit David Palmer.: If you request help, terminologies like 'chown' and chmode' or somesuch are thrown at you without any effort toward fuller explanation, and it goes further than assumption through long familiarity, there is some sort of supercilious ego factor involved also. That reminds me of the reaction of a coworker of Ashkenazic origin upon first encountering `chmod' year ago: ``Khmad? WTF is a khmad? I've got an uncle called Khmad!'' It can be enlightening at times to see things through new eyes... That's right! Less, but it's spelled 'ls'. I once learned how to waltz and foxtrot, but what dance is this? Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux is not for consumers!
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 18:47:15 -0500 Roberto Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: s. keeling wrote: Incoming from Richard Kimber: On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:07:23 -0600 Michael Martinell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's why the people doing the documentation should be the power-userwho is not familiar with every intricate detail, and has had to struggleand learn the system. That is the person who can usually explain thingsin a This sounds like an excuse for programmers not to document their programs. Programmers need no excuse for this. They know how it works. If you think it needs documentation, go ahead and write it. But I feel strongly that to overcome the original point in the thread,many app developers need to give more attention to the documentation, andindeed the user interface, and a little less to adding that nice newexciting (and undocumented) feature. Note the smiley: Go to hell! :-) If I were being paid to do this kind of thing, my boss might have a more convincing argument as to why I should document my work. However, for something I'm giving away for nothing, there's no such obligation that I can see. Go join the LDP and fix this apparent deficiency yourself if you think it's a problem. I'm sorry but you are way off base. A lawyer that does pro bono work, or a doctor that volunteers at a public clinic, is not absolved of maintaining proper documentation (case files or medical charts). We (software developers) are (or at least should be considered) professionals. I would think that if you are just going to half-ass the job the community would be better off without your efforts. This is the crux. It's not just the immediate comprehension level within the individual that is at stake here, it's the advancement of the community as a whole. The faster a newbie can learn, the more quickly he/she is going to be in a position to feed back into that community. Any act or ommission that retards the learning process, retards and thereby weakens the community as a whole. I'm involved in a project to implement reduced term copywrite, cross spectrum, but most specifically within the educational resource factor. When discussing terms of licencing, most of the people involved wanted to restrict access to educational resources to registered educational institutions. When individuals, on a self-educating regime are denied access to materials, it's not just class victimization. These individuals are members of society, and if they do not receive an education that enhances their existence within that society, then it degrades society in more ways than one. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can we tag [T]echnical posts?
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:24:46 -0800 Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on Thu, Dec 11, 2003 at 01:13:47PM -0800, Tom Ballard, MSFT shill ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I don't expect this to be adopted, Right. This is an unmoderated list of volunteers. Many of whom can't get subscription/unsubscription instructions right, despite the fact that they're printed on every damned post but I'd like to get the suggestion out there: I really enjoy reading the technical questions about How do I do X, Here's how to do X, and even Here's my opinion about X technology or technique. I much less enjoy reading the posts about Getting Linux adopted, Is Linux good for consumers, or other soft issues. Ignore them. The threads on completely off-topic issues (previously: rail, opium, and currently media acccuracy) simply shouldn't be on d-u. I've held my tongue this time, but the primary participants are very close to hitting my killfile. Again: there _is_ debian-curiosa. Many mailers have scoring or rating facilities. You might want to highlight posts by technically adept users. I do this mentally myself. Hello Karsten, Apparently this is not the appointed function of curiosa, the people on that list inform me. I'd appreciate your views on the thread:- 'Easing the load.' Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: New Debian installer?
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 04:22:35 +0100 Alexander Fitterling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am Mittwoch, 10. Dezember 2003 03:41 schrieb Paul Johnson: HI. Nope, that's it. That's how you get it. What FS actually are supported? Hello Alex. For detailed information, you may well be better off speaking to these people here:- http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/ There is also a chat facility:- #debian-boot on irc.debian.org Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Server Compromise -- A Fire Drill ??
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:58:34 +0100 Burkhard Woelfel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 09 December 2003 01:55, Joyce, Matthew wrote: -Original Message- From: ScruLoose [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 5 December 2003 8:58 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Debian Server Compromise -- A Fire Drill ?? It's cracker. Not hacker. http://web.bilkent.edu.tr/Online/Jargon30/JARGON_C/CRACKER.HTM It's both according to OED. [snip] There are numerous definitions for the word hacker, and the definition that ScruLoose objected to can be found all over the place - it even made it into renowned dictionaries, just as you said. snip All of the above don't really fit the sociolect of large parts of the Free Software Community. A good place to read about the concept ScruLoose was refering to is the Hacker-HOWTO by Eric S. Raymond http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html snip Hello, It all boils down to an old saying that I can't remember the origin of now:- 'Any idiot can be destructive, -- Cracker It takes a mature human being to be creative.' -- Hacker This has cross discipline application. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mimail-L
On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 23:30:10 + Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 12:24:09PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote: I have just received a copy of the new variant of the Mimail worm. Would anyone like a free sample? As new condition. I haven't even clicked the attachment. Going cheap. Information on the Sophos website concerning the followup message if you don't reply to the initial one. Have copied and pasted the main message in all its' intellectual glory below:- Thanks for getting us to read more spam and polluting our Bayesian filters by mixing spammish words into a legitimate message. I mean, seriously. Don't we all get more than enough of this stuff? Hello Colin, Do you get enough of this? As far as I am aware, this is the latest -L variant, or it was when I posted it to the list. Many on the list run windows programmes, and run them within a commercial environment as well. The last time I posted this sort of thing to the list, somebody had a script written to counter within half an hour, if memory serves me correctly. The intention, when posting, was not to spam. It was to show the form of a new worm variant so that anybody who it related to could prepare themselves. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))
On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 23:14:16 -0700 Paul E Condon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 05:40:32AM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 02:25:18PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote: On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 at 21:13 GMT, csj penned: As usual, science fiction was here before. C.F., _The Songs of Distant Earth_ by Arthur C. Clarke. You do remember that the first generation colonists in the novel weremanufactured from gene samples and raised by machines that taught them a sanitized version of human history and culture? They were genetically and culturally engineered to be altruistic. So maybe our best hope lies in breeding out our baser instincts. Somehow, I doubt that baser insticts can be bred out, especially by just not teaching about them. That whole those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it line... given the consistency with which the old mistakes are repreated, i seriously wonder if that adage holds true. I have another thought. This, and my last post, and lots of other stuff of this nature, should really not be here. I'm subscribing to debian-curiosa. I think everyone who want to talk about 'the meaning of life', or other OT things should either move there, or post a message there as to where they are moving. Its fun, but lets not do it here. -- Paul E Condon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Seconded. See you there. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 00:32:46 -0700 Monique Y. Herman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 at 05:57 GMT, Paul E Condon penned: As the most recent user of this phrase on this list, let me join this discussion: The sense in which I meant 'know history' was to know what has happened in prior times when a certain course of action or a certain line of reasoning was used. For humans, instincts are stuff like the ability to acquire and use language, the ability to engage in thought about what others are thinking, etc. Clarke's postulates seeem to me foolish, but amusing. We don't have adequate definitions of what we mean by altruism in humans. Our lives are rather complex, and what might seem altruistic at first sight can be, on more deep examination,'enlightened self-interest', and visa-versa. Who are you, Kant? =P I haven't actually read the book, so I can't really chime in on what Clarke did or didn't accomplish or intend to accomplish. [snip] For me, the consistency with which mistakes are repeated, is a proof of the ignorance of history on the part of the players, not a disproof of the addage. I tend to agree here, except that it's not that simple, because the factors are never *exactly* the same, and some people are better than others at discerning similar patterns. In fact, I'd tend to believe that most folks are pretty bad at it. Then again, that's probably just self-aggrandizing fluff, since I consider myself to be pretty good at it. ... Anyway, point is, it's not as simple as recognizing identical situations. It's seeing similar situations, recognizing the pattern, and being able to extrapolate from there. It is hard to determine just exactly what is the special thing that makes homo sapiens different from other great apes. Some say there is no essential difference, others say that we were create different by God. I think we have a special ability to see ourselves from 'outside', and to think about how others see us. But others claim that this is an illusion. But if one chooses to live within the illusion, knowing history is surely better than not knowing it. And if one pretends to reject the illusion, ... whatever ... Heh. Every time scientists have held forth some notion that humans are unique because, later scientists have found a variety of animals that do the same thing. I'm not saying that there might not be some unique point, but the fact is, without being able to sit down to a pint of guinness with representatives of other species, it's kind of hard to really know what, if anything, is going on in their heads. Just today, I was reading Discover Magazine, and this scientist was stating as fact that animals simply don't feel pain the way humans do. Maybe that's what he has to tell himself to get through the day, but last I heard, that was far from accepted Truth, and it's certainly a concept that I have trouble swallowing, having seen my cats and dogs seemingly in pain, seemingly panicked, seemingly joyful, seemingly playful, seemingly sad ... maybe there are other explanations, but they ring hollow to my ears. Heidegger, not Kant is the one with the answer here. 'Dasein', - Man, the being for whom being is a question. With all due respect to cats and dogs. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unidentified subject!
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 12:15:50 +0100
Nicos Gollan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 16:33:45 -0800
Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A spammer harvesting replies.
Any particular reason to feel that's the case? Are you seeing this
behavior elsewhere?
I'm getting some of those lately between all the other trash, and
frankly I can't think of any other reason for those messages (other
than some {m|w}ildly disturbed freak).
Hmmm...
Have you asked Tom if he knows anything about this?
Regards,
David.
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unidentified subject!
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 03:35:12 -0800 Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 07:39:18PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote: Have you asked Tom if he knows anything about this? I'd rather be me than you. There's a lot of you. Oh... Hello, Tom. How are you? Come to mess with my head, have we? Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux Kernel Security - Can it ever be 100%
On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 02:39:38 -0800 Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 10:55:23PM -0700, Paul E Condon wrote: [This rant is probably full of shit] :-) Yes. ;-) The reason it sounds so dumb is everybody would be out of a job. I've never met a single person yet who can truly look at statements like this and say yes, let's do that. 20 years from now somebody will suggest the same thing and win a nobel prize. Yes. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux Kernel Security - Can it ever be 100%
On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 02:29:29 -0800 Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Dec 06, 2003 at 03:04:22PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote: For a start, please allow me to refer you to Emmanuel Kant with reference to 'a priori.' 'a priori' means you know how to do it independent of experience. Not quite. But I'm like Alice: when I used a word it means what I mean it to mean. This perception may have application in some forms of modern art, the type that believes that communication is superfluous. In this context: when my job is to find Billy Joe Bob's phone bill, 99% of the stuff that happens in a computer is unnecessary, *if* the computer was built that one and only thing. Just keep defining the problem down. And this appears to have no logical correlation at all. View this as an assessment, as judgement is not a process that I indulge in. You don't need privilege levels if there are no assholes. With reference to the security aspect, perhaps you are used to viewing a situation through only the one set of paradigms. This is a totally different environment to what you are used to. Prepare for a paradigm shift. There are levels here, but they aren't really associated with the normal concept of 'privilege.' It's like any other community, you establish your own level within the community in the way in which you conduct yourself. Now, let's see: You walked into town and carried on like some kind of attention deficit; insulted one of the developers simply because he expressed amazement at your pseudointellectual, pyrotechnical behaviour; derided the perceptions of anybody that did not agree with yours' in the manner of an inferiority complex the size of your average postage stamp european kingdom; I could go on, but I think the scenario is established. I think as far as being on the level of an arsehole goes, you'd be looking up, Alice. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: LP - CD
On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 12:31:59 +0100 Luis Fernando Llana DÃaz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I have several LP's that I would like to transfer to CD's. I have already connected a LP player to my sound card and I cad heard it. I am searching programs to: 1. Record the LP in the hard disk. 2. Split the sound files in their tracks. I have search in google I have found a lot of programs. I am not an expert in sound treatment programs so I want to hear your opinions about the simpler and more convinient programs. Hello Luis, apt-get update apt-get install gramofile. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installing on a GRUB system?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 04:37:09 +0100 Arnt Karlsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 10:09:59 -0500, lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: i'm downloading the debian-installer beta. i intend to install on a spare partition on my GRUB-based system. does debian-installer use GRUB or LILO? if LILO, can i just skip the LILO installation and add an entry to grub.conf instead? ..you can do both: point lilo to the /boot of your install and boot that off grub on the mbr. And you can do apt-get remove --purge lilo and setup grub instead. Apparently it's not immediately obvious, but installing Grub instead of Lilo is available as an option in the installer. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Installing on a GRUB system?
On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 22:55:31 -0600 tripolar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David what installer are you talking about? woody installer? I used the newer sarge one and I didnt notice any option but lilo because sure would have appreciated installing grub instead. Instead will have to install configure grub after the fact. On Sat, 2003-12-06 at 22:48, David Palmer. wrote: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 04:37:09 +0100 Arnt Karlsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 10:09:59 -0500, lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: i'm downloading the debian-installer beta. i intend to install on a spare partition on my GRUB-based system. does debian-installer use GRUB or LILO? if LILO, can i just skip the LILO installation and add an entry to grub.conf instead? ..you can do both: point lilo to the /boot of your install and boot that off grub on the mbr. And you can do apt-get remove --purge lilo and setup grub instead. Apparently it's not immediately obvious, but installing Grub instead of Lilo is available as an option in the installer. Regards, David. In the new Debian installer. I believed this was the one you were referring to. With Debian, Lilo is the default, but one of the developers stated that Grub was available in the installer as an option. I cannot tell you where, as I have not used it myself, but it will be somewhere. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy
On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 21:50:35 -0600 John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Palmer. wrote: Put all politicians on a wage of $500.00/week, and make it a capital offense to take a political bribe, and you would get the ones that want to do the job for the right reasons. No. You'd get the ones that want to do the job for all the worst possible reasons. Under those conditions only fanatics and crackpots would run for office. They do now, John. I can't tell the difference between them and game show hosts. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy
On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 23:05:39 -0500 ScruLoose [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 09:50:35PM -0600, John Hasler wrote: David Palmer. wrote: Put all politicians on a wage of $500.00/week, and make it a capital offense to take a political bribe, and you would get the ones that want to do the job for the right reasons. No. You'd get the ones that want to do the job for all the worst possible reasons. Under those conditions only fanatics and crackpots would run for office. This is true, but you could take a huge step in the right direction just by applying a halfway-sane definition of political bribe in the first place, and making sure it comes with stiff penalties. Half of the stuff that gets called campaign contribution in the US would get both parties ten years in jail if you tried it in any other democracy in the world. How Enron donating a billion dollars (that it got from stockholders by fraud) to G. W. Bush's presidential campaign (for example) contributes to freedom, democracy, and fair elections is a mystery to me. Yep, and Cheneys' outfit, Haliburton, have just wound up their contract in Iraq, from what I hear. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mail Consolidation
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:06:40 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where do I go to modify this setting to make it Digest version. The same page you subscribed to the list on. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Unidentified subject!
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:32:37 -0800 (PST) bob nole [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you are a animal raper How did he find out? Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Linux Kernel Security - Can it ever be 100%
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 20:58:40 -0800
Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 11:43:23PM -0500, Joey Hess wrote:
[great stuff which is absolutely correct]
However, I Tom Ballard have figured it all out.
The problem with all of computer science is the left hand doesn't know
what the right hand is doing. All of these problems are finite and
can be handled in an a priori way. The problem is computer science
grew up not knowing that so we pretend we don't immediately know
everything and compute in an a posteori way.
What I'm talking about is tearing down the concept of a general
purpose computer. The only reason I can't run all my programs in a
single memory space and know just exactly what the heck is going to
happen is it makes poor economic sense to work that way.
Consider a SQL Server for example. For any given schema which will
a maximum of contain {N1...Nm} records, I can compute a priori the
exact disk location of any record. If memory wasn't so fucking slow
and there were plenty of it, we could assemble any image of this very
quickly. All I need is a simple I/O monster that does this one
fixed task in an a priori way.
So the problem is general purpose computers. We need to be able to
produce fixed-function devices in a one-off fashion.
[This rant is probably full of shit] :-)
Yes.
For a start, please allow me to refer you to Emmanuel Kant with
reference to 'a priori.'
Regards,
David.
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 21:00:02 -0800 Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 08:19:25PM -0800, Tom wrote: The unfortunate thing about people like you is you go from this bizarre self-loathing to crass commercialism (usually around 27). You know, murphy really ought to be making sure the addresses used to post to this list are valid. Yes. And the ones behind those addresses also. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: error
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 23:16:07 -0600 Norman Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I attempted to file a complaint on line. Each time I was informed that the phone number (my phone number) was incorrect; yet, my phone number, 972 727 7260 is registered on the Do Not Call list. I could not file my complaint except by calling 1 888 382 l222. Norman Lane Stand by. I'm about to put a call through. (What is happening to this list?) Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Kernel upgrade time
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 15:15:06 -0800 Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 06:54:54AM +0800, David Palmer. wrote: This is just the manifestation of a career CIA mentality torturing itself. George H.W. Bush was CIA director under Gerald Ford. Rummey was Secretary of defense. This was after Watergate and all the old CIA guys got fired. By the way, those guys then formed The Company and started getting funding for blackops by smuggling cocaine in through South America. That's how we got involved in Central America in the 1980's, and it's the primary reason coke was so popular (ironic, since Pepsi was at that time a front company for the CIA). Richard Nixon was a lawyer for the Pepsi-cola company and flew out of Dallas as a lawyer for Pepsi the day Kennedy was shot. Before the CIA switched to pushing cocaine, their primary source of income was Heroin, shipped into Miami via the Mafia. We flew rice into Laos during the Vietman war so the farmers could free up their land to grow poppies. The opium was refined into heroin at a Pepsi plant in Laos, and then into Miami. The primary purpose of blackops funding was assisnating Eastern european leaders and various murderous acts. The human body holds about five gallons of blood. A swimming pool holds about 25,000 gallons of fluid. Most of our coups and overthrows were small, just one or two swimming pools. Some of the things we did filled up a dozen pools (mostly in Southeast Asia). All of this came out during the Iran-Contra hearings in the 1980s and was documented in the graphic novel Brought To Light by Alan Moore, of Watchmen and Miracleman fame. If you're going to bitch, don't be boring. I don't know what you are talking about. I'm having a conversation, you need a competition. Grow up on your own time. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:01:13 -0800 Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 12:53:29PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote: Two parties, sharing power, no difference between the two other than name. I used to be like that, all mad at everybody. The internal assumption that validates it to yourself is I could do it much better, if only... Once I had a few experiences I have a lot more sympathies for politicians. They're doing the best they can with an absurd situation. You can't underestimate just how random the combined opinions of thousands of people with every viewpoint under the sun are. I know *I* couldn't do any better. I'm not mad at anyone. If there is a form of arrogance that displays a lack of experience, it's analysis at a distance. Put all politicians on a wage of $500.00/week, and make it a capital offense to take a political bribe, and you would get the ones that want to do the job for the right reasons. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Kernel upgrade time
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 23:09:44 -0800 Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 12:46:06PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote: I don't know what you are talking about. I'm fucking with your head by appearing to argue with you while offering arguments that bolster what you believe :-) Bizarre, ain't it? Tommy boy, you haven't got what it takes to screw with my head. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Kernel upgrade time
On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 04:29:04 -0800 Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 07:16:48PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote: Tommy boy, you haven't got what it takes to screw with my head. Okay. Just out of curiousity, are you older or younger than 30: those of us older can remember what the world was like when we were all pretty sure the nukes were gonna fall on Tuesday. That's why .au had so much internet first: y'all were gonna be the rallying point for our subs, after all of Amerika was burnt up. I'm over fifty, and we are O.T. We take this off-list, or we stop it here. I don't mind a bit of social chat, but I don't want Debian-user used. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Kernel upgrade time
On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 05:10:31 -0800 Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 06:41:30AM -0600, Hoyt Bailey wrote: On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 03:15:06PM -0800, Tom wrote: Fact: Closer to 5 pints than 5 gallons. gallons of blood. A swimming pool holds about 25,000 gallons of fluid. Sorry, I forgot how my story goes: the human body holds about 1 gallon of blood. It's been 13 years since I told this story much. Yeah, I butchered that part of the story. I wonder if I can still find my copy of Brought to Light. That and the Butter Battle Book helped me form my worldview -- I'm fully aware (in quantitative terms) of all the murders and evil our side has done, and yet I know at a deeper level the guys who did it are on my side and aren't scary. I guess if you're not on my side they're scary. I simply don't understand this concept of 'sides.' I thought, all being the same species, that we were all on the same side. This 'us and them' concept is just a political tool. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gentoo compromised too
On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:15:50 -0600 John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Flo writes: But even worse, about the Savannah crack Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. I suspect that all these attacks are not unrelated. Someone is out to get us. I've been certain of this for a while. It's not just the distributions themselves, it's the entire open source movement. SCOs' antics are just the face of a takeover bid. The Royal Bank of Canada financed them for how much? With a Microsoft executive sitting on the board. This is not just a few crackers doing it to show their grubby little mates that they can. Someone's paying them, and paying them well. This sort of hack is pulled off by someone who really knows his/her stuff. You watch, The GPL will be invalidated next. I've been watching the WSIS and other aspects of the complete spectrum and it's not looking good. Regards, David -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Server Compromise -- A Fire Drill ??
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 00:48:58 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 04:57:55PM -0500, ScruLoose wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 01:50:35PM -0700, Dave wrote: On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 20:20:21 +0100, Terry Hancock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: who benefits from the publicity surrounding this? there's got to be a reason why no calling card was left, i.e., the caller has a vested interest in not claiming credit, which would tend to suggest a contract job. as to the issue of whether the attacker had previous knowledge of the debian servers, only a fool wouldn't do everything to acquaint him/herself with the environment where they plan to engage in mischief. In detection, this is the crux,-who benefits. In this scenario, I believe that it is those who are incapable of surviving within the level playing field environment. The first thing to be compromised in this situation is Debians' reputation for security. Has anything else been found? Planted? If you are incapable of raising your own standard, you lower the reputation of the opposition. Thus far, that is the only thing the enemy has achieved. Perhaps that is the only thing they were after. But, we will not assume that. given the regular stream of ridiculous garbage coming from redmond about linux, while new holes are found in their os and apps on an almost weekly basis, this seems like the next stage in the campaign to buttress the losses they've been taking all the while linux has found favor. apart from the money issue, linux, and particularly debian, represents the absolute opposite to their culture. this distro, as a product of volunteerism on the part of people who have nothing to gain apart from their own satisfaction in making the thing work, represents a huge philosophical challenge to those who view the world in terms of how much they can extract from it. the attacks are, on the one hand, a wake-up call, but, on the other, a statement from the opposition that proves both the significance and the ascendance of human cooperation as a power, with no other incentive in mind than to do the best that can be done. There is another statement here that is actually a positive for Debian. The action is an admission that the enemy is incapable of competing within the level playing field environment. The negative is that they cannot afford to stop at this stage. They will come again, and not necessarily from the same direction. on the subject of disclosure of methods, i've been trusting the team for almost five years, since i first came across debian. i have no reason not to trust them now. i'm amazed at the speed of the recovery, given that everything that had to be done was done by folks who do this in their spare time. my thanks and respect. debian keeps on rockin'. ben Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Kernel upgrade time
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:57:07 -0800 Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 06:35:05AM -0600, Hoyt Bailey wrote: On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 03:00:13PM -0500, Paul Morgan wrote: Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know. - Donald Rumsfeld, US Secretary of Defense, Winner of British Plain English Campaign's 2003 Foot in Mouth award. Why doesn't this statement make sense? It does but he left out another term unknowable unknowns = sq. root of your encripted password in a base 100 system. Hoyt Actually for symmetry I was looking for the unknown knowns :-) He covered the other three combinations. Let's see, what's something I know but I don't know that I know? grin There is nothing obscure here. This is just the manifestation of a career CIA mentality torturing itself. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:14:24 -0700 Monique Y. Herman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 at 20:04 GMT, Tom penned: On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 07:12:33AM -0500, Paul Morgan wrote: And everyone seems to SHOUT on Fox. I like it when we take turns. I hope the left will play nice on the playground and accept that we're alternating decades. They had a nice long run with Clinton following a nice long run with Reagan. It would be rude not to let the right have a nice long turn. I will be vehemently against the left in this election but in 2008 it will be their turn again, *if* they can exhibit the patience and maturity. It will be so lovely if we play nice with each other and take nice turns. I tend to think that the reason you're okay with the right and the left taking turns is that, for the most part, the politicians on both sides are nothing but center. I'm sick of republicrats and democricans alike. -- monique two-party systems suck That's right. It's all a game. Two parties, sharing power, no difference between the two other than name. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Kernel upgrade time
On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:19:08 +0100 Andreas von Heydwolff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom wrote: Let's see, what's something I know but I don't know that I know? grin An archetype before it becomes conscious. generic grin -- AvH You think there might be one lurking in there somewhere? Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mimail-L
Hello, I have just received a copy of the new variant of the Mimail worm. Would anyone like a free sample? As new condition. I haven't even clicked the attachment. Going cheap. Information on the Sophos website concerning the followup message if you don't reply to the initial one. Have copied and pasted the main message in all its' intellectual glory below:- Hi Greg its Wendy. I was shocked, when I found out that it wasn't you but your twin brother, that's amazing, you're as like as two peas. No one in bed is better than you Greg. I remember, I remember everything very well, that promised you to tell how it was, I'll give you a call today after 9. He took my skirt off, then my panties, then my bra, he sucked my tits, with the same fury you do it. He was writing alphabet on my pussy for 20 minutes, then suddenly stopped, put me in doggy style position and stuck his dagger.But Greg, why didn't you warn me that his dick is 15 inches long? I was struck, we fucked whole night. I'm so thankful to you, for acquainted me to your brother. I think we can do it on the next Saturday all three together? What do you think? O yes, as you wanted I've made a few pictures check them out in archive, I hope they will excite you, and you will dream of our new meeting... application/x-msdownload attachment (wendy.exe) Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFC: Create d-user-woody, d-user-sarge maillists, deactivate d-user
On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 02:28:52 -0800 Hereon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Request For Comment on: Enhancing the Debian mailing lists by: Creating debian-user-woody and debian-user-sarge mailing lists, and deactivating debian-user. And the people running mixed systems? I'm running stable and sarge. I see no reason to get rid of debian-user. At present it doesn't appear, according to my perception at any rate, to be bursting at the seams. It has the potential, as I have stated in an earlier posting, to grow out of proportion as a result of Red Hats' policy change, and greater debian acceptance on the part of the general public due to the new debian installer and the anaconda facility. But as yet, that has not occurred. If it was to do so, I would recommend the formation of new mailing lists based on the format of subject type, e.g., a debian-mail list dealing with associated subject matter, e.g., spamassassin, and clamav, and/or a debian-networking list, as these two factors provide the majority of the load upon debian-user at present. But with 13000+ packages (I think it is), I believe that there will still be a definite requirement for debian-user and the flexible, general nature that it provides, caters for, and why it was created in the first place. Debian-user is an institution for a reason. But I have been known to be wrong in the past, and I may well be wrong now. Let's see what everybody else thinks. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EXT3 File system recovery
On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:58:37 -0500 Matthew Kopishke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, I am in desperate need of help. I had two 60gb disks running in a RAID 1 using a Promise FastTrack IDE RAID card and the linux ATARaid support with a EXT3 FS (2.4.18). Over the weekend, as far as I can tell, one of the drive died (it just clicks now) so the file system went read only and there it sat for a day. My boss tried to restart the machine, and eventually must have done a hard reset. When I got it the machine was stuck trying to do a fsck on the file system. I pulled the dead drive and stuck the good one on a plain IDE channel, started off a CD and was able to mount the drive, look at a few files, and at that point I was pretty confident in the drive so I installed lilo with with the new device name and rebooted (no RAID). The machine came up, started to do a fsck, and then said there were read errors. I restarted off the CD and now I can't mount the file system. I tried a fsdebug but it couldn't read the partition. I don't know what to do, I'm quite stuck. This wouldn't be to much of an issue but the backup failed and I'm stuck sitting here with out my data from the database (mysql). Can some one point in any direction? (Oh, and I did try the clunky drive again as well) Thank you! Matt I'm just a newbie, Matt, and I'm sure you will get more qualified opinions coming your way from people on the list. A once off cure, long enough to obtain a copy of the drive goes like this:- Stick the drive in a freezer for 15 - 30 minutes, reinstall and copy. I have never done it myself, but on another list some years ago this was suggested, and it was endorsed by a couple of other list members. There was an explanation, but I can't remember what it was now. Save it as a last resort anyway. Regards, David -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slasdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications)
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:01:22 -0800 Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 09:53:37PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 at 03:22 GMT, John Hasler penned: Monique wrote: The difference is that, by allowing replies to accumulate and reading them filtered to +3, you have a decent chance of finding out when a submission was likely off-base. That's what I meant by corrections. Whenever Slashdot screws up I can be fairly certain that several of its thousands of knowledgeable readers will gleefully point out the error. Agreed. But I wanted to be clear, both to you and to everyone else, that slashdot's front page is *not* in any way guaranteed to be accurate. Taking any of their blurbs at face value tends to make an ass out of you ... The blurbs are written by the article submitter, and (generally) not Slashdot's editors. The submitter may be wrong, misinformed, biased, or have an axe to grind. Or not. The mainstream media have gross factual errors in about 30-50% of stories. Without, as noted here, the instant feedback offered by Slashdot and other online sites. The mainstream media also have an extremely high 'tame' factor. The political strategy is always involved with maintaining a common doctrine so as to maintain a population mass proceeding in what is perceived as a 'common productive direction', for example. This is a marketable commodity. It is also a path that diverges from that of the honest one. There are reasons why, for example, that journalists in warzones have their stories 'vetted' before they are approved for release to the outside world. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT, proper phone wire question?/Twists Guage ?
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:30:00 -0500 lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday 18 November 2003 15:36, Derrick 'dman' Hudson wrote: Why are twists so important and why do the faster technologies need more twists in the cable? As an electric signal varies along a pair of wires, a magnetic field around the wires is created and then collapses. This field will induce a current in another wire that passes through the field. That induced current is noise, because it intereferes with the electric current (signal) that is intentially being sent over that wire. Twisting the wires reduces the size of the generated magnetic field, and also reduces the cable's ability to pick up a signal from a nearby magnetic field. For voice-grade telephone, no twists are needed most of the time. For better signalling and less noise, get more twists. Using Cat 0 or Cat 3 should be fine, but the Cat 3 will cost more money. You *may* have noise problems with Cat 0 which will hurt your ability to connect, maintain a connection, and will limit transfer rates. Basically more is better when it comes to twists, but also more costs more. It's up to you to find the desired return-on-investment for cable quality. HTH, -D Thank you very much for the discussion on twists, I have a question..what about actual wire size..cat 3 and 5 are usually 22 or 24 guage..suppose one was to use say 18 guage speaker wire..it's twisted(like cat), it's unshielded(like cat)..but a bit larger..less resistance is my thinking..where am i wrong here..not enuff twists perhaps? Thank you all very very much for your time.. Lee Good thinking. In legal building standards for example, the standards specified are 'minimum required without having to go to jail.' Going up one more guage in wire size does indeed reduce resistance and associated energy waste in heat given off, and allows the maximum amount of energy to arrive at the appliance concerned, with the associated economic factor. There's the greater initial cost which concerns the short-sighted initially, but cost savings over the longer term which soon recoup the initial investment, and mean money in the bank thereafter for those that are capable of thinking beyond the trapezium. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: recommended Virus Scanner?
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:06:54 -0800 Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 09:33:45PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 11:57:26PM -0500, ScruLoose wrote: I've gotta say that md5-encrypted shadow passwords, chkrootkit, integrit, SYN cookies, iptables, etc. don't really look like the products of a can't happen here mentality. On the contrary, it's lessons learned quickly combined with the kind of paranoia that the tinfoil-hat crowd would be proud of. Unix geeks(BSD geeks in particular) seem to take It's not paranoia if everybody really is after you to heart and applies it. One more comment before I drop the thread: The problem isn't mitigating what you know about. The problem is you don't know what you don't know. And the enemy always gets a vote on the battlefield :-) That said, certainly nothing wrong with the efforts so far... I just personally don't believe they will prove sufficient once all of Eastern Europe begins to focus its efforts on hassling you :-) Eastern Europe!!?? http://perso.wanadoo.fr/metasystems/BigBrother.html About halfway down that link you will come across an article entitled, 'Microsoft et Intel.' For those that have no grasp of the French language, here's an adequate translation:- 'The prize for being Electronic Big Brother goes, incontestably, to Microsoft, with its Windows system and Internet Explorer, which contain a user identification number, the GUID. This number is then written to all documents created with Microsoft Office. It may also be consulted by internet because of commands embedded by Microsoft. SUMMARY: The Global Unique Identifier in Windows and in IE is a Back Door. Hidden commands in Windows and IE, which in turn integrate other hidden commands, permit MS (and govts) to scan users' disks..., without the user's knowledge, while the user is connected to the internet. Microsoft admits to this possibility. According to a report realized in 1999 for the French Department of defense, Microsoft and American Information Services (CIA et al), and members of the National Security Agency work with Microsoft coders. This report also gave examples of back-Doors included, (or rather embedded) in Microsoft software. Intel has placed an ID number that may be consulted at a distance by interested parties in their PIII (now VI) and XEON chips. The solution::: use a Mac or a Linux system, and surf with anything but Internet Explorer.' The Age is a reputable newspaper:- https://www.politrix.org/foia/nsa/nsa-ms-spy.htm NOW, PLEASE UNDERSTAND, I am not in the least interested in starting off another O.T. topic unless it's within the curiosa environment. But Eastern Europe!, that one belongs in the days of the cold war. The latest translation of 50s McCarthyism is the 'Terrorist' campaign. Stick with the fashion, if you don't want to admit to reality. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Modems-dialup.
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 13:51:22 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi folks.. apologies getting off topic a bit but really would like to hear everyone's opinion if there's particular modem that stands above and beyond the rest..sort of like say a Courier modem would for dial-up. If I go with Alltel's choice it'll be a Slipstream 5200 most likely..which hopefuly will be free..with a years contract of course..irreguardless of what they provide, seriously considering a backup(could use one RIGHT NOW).. Thank you all very much for your time.. Lee Hello Lee, These are the best modems in the world:- http://www.maestro.com.au/special%20modems.htm I've had one for three years, and the only time I've had a dropped connection is when the I.S.P. has dropped it. Fully Linux compatible with a 56K Rockwell chip. Failing that the Netcomm Roadster wasn't too bad, from memory. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: recommended Virus Scanner?
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 06:57:18 -0800 Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 05:39:05AM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: Thanks for the excellent answers. ...you don't need to worry about viruses for GNU/Linux. GNU/Linux has a security profile. It's generally markedly different from legacy MS Windows. I don't think viruses and worms, as commonly defined, will characterize the problem. There are few attacks on GNU/Linux, *BSD, or proprietary unices which are of the world comes to an end variety. They will likely be largely localized (affecting a subset of users and systems) I have a friend who is 1000 times smarter about Unix than me, and he has told me the whole history of Sendmail exploits, Bind exploits, and horriblly crufty design decisions and gaffs and el crapo code all throughout the history of Unix. His personal opinion is that Linux is a mere distraction written by amateurs; FreeBSD is closer to the ideal. I'm not advocating his belief, it's just that (1) the history of Unix as a cracker proof platform is not true; (2) most of the professional Unix community views Linux as a largely amateurish attempt relative to their heavy duty code, and (3) we're all human. I believe all of your statements I snipped are destined to be crow one day we will all eat. However, I think your professionalism and exhaustiveness in answering my questions is absolutely admirable, absolutely the correct way to be, and absolutely the best philsophy we can have to do the best we can. Hello Tom, With all due respect to your friend, if he knew what he was talking about regarding Unix security, he wouldn't be using Free, he'd be using Open. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Debian Community Security, was Re: recommended Virus Scanner?
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 00:07:05 -0800 Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: Non-issue if you don't use Windows. This is totally piling on, but given this recent security compromise, I think the whole Linux community needs to reevaluate its can't happen here mentality. I don't care if its social engineering or I-Love-You, if the world comes to an end, that's A Bad Thing. It's only going to get worse as Linux gets more popular. There were dozens of Microsoft disasters before the mainstream press and the general public noticed. Linux is long overdue for a major security black eye. It's going to suck when it happens. I think all Linux devs, from Linus on down, need to stop and think very seriously about what can be done to preemptively mitigate the inevitable embarressments which are sure to come (soon). Agreed. It's not just SCO and M$ that are potential invaders (Microsoft personnel were turning up at the KDE stand at COMDEX asking lots of questions, and were very interested, apparently), we now have corporate enterprise moving in on the linux market, why do they need to have a large developer payroll when they have the entire Debian community to do the job for them? All they have to do is crack the Debian servers at the right time and their work has been done for them. Novell is offering financial enticement, depending on the project, up to $2500.00 for moving the Gaim buddy list over to Evolution, so they are obviously going after the desktop market, and the competition factor is going to be up there. What I'm trying to say is that there are more than a few crackers doing it because they can, Linux is getting a commercial aspect and recognition to the point where entire countries are switching to Open Source, commercial distros are getting frightened, and fear breeds aggression, and that means changes that we are better finding hacks to compensate for before they occur. We also need to perhaps tighten up within the mail list community. Just being aware is a good start, look for a lot of noise combined with experience. Increase security in the form of layers the further into the community somebody gets. I'm not just talking about key signing, If you know your way around the street, I.D. is easily faked. Debian has a name for security, our servers could have been compromised for no other reason than to destroy that reputation, but we have earned that name because we have the abilities to create a secure programme. Perhaps if we looked on the community as a programme, and applied security measures according to that viewpoint? Thoughts? Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kernel 2.6
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:24:02 -0500 Paul Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Allison wrote: Is there a test package of kernel-image-2.6 ?? I thought I read once there was, but the search engine is down right now on the debian site. apt-cache search kernel-image|grep 2.6 kernel-image-2.6.0-test9-1-386 - Linux kernel image for version 2.6.0-test9 on 386. kernel-source-2.6.0-test9 - Linux kernel source for version 2.6.0-test9 with Debian patches Test 10 is out now. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Learning debian Linux
On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:33:04 -0700 Monique Y. Herman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 at 10:10 GMT, David Palmer. penned: On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 21:00:00 +0100 John L. Fjellstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 20 November 2003 22:27, David Palmer. wrote: David Palmer? As in President David Palmer? What are you doing in Australia?;-) I am a Linux Newbie. I checked out Red Hat 8, Mandrake 9, and Libranet is the best Linux Newbie distro. I don't know. I can't really recommend a distro I never tried. Who's President David Palmer? Has someone got my job? Regards, David. Have you ever seen the Fox tv series 24? No. The only time I watch T.V. is when the All Blacks are playing. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Learning debian Linux
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 21:00:00 +0100 John L. Fjellstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 20 November 2003 22:27, David Palmer. wrote: David Palmer? As in President David Palmer? What are you doing in Australia?;-) I am a Linux Newbie. I checked out Red Hat 8, Mandrake 9, and Libranet is the best Linux Newbie distro. I don't know. I can't really recommend a distro I never tried. Who's President David Palmer? Has someone got my job? Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anaconda, where's the beef?
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:11:01 -0500 Fraser Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 15 November 2003 07:00, David Palmer. wrote: I don't know why we have to go to Red Hat for something that Debian requires. My reason for being interested in anaconda-debian is kickstart, that's the entire reason, the only reason. I agree that debian-installer is the way to go for a normal Debian install and I have done several test installs with it over the past 6 months. However, AFAIK debian-installer still doesn't support unattended installs (or perhaps they just aren't documented?). I can understand progeny's reasons for doing the anaconda port somewhat but I don't see why they wouldn't have been better served by helped d-i and then getting it ported to work with redhat. All questions aside, the anaconda port was apparently done and the work does sound useful as a stop-gap measure. Hello Fraser, A package directory search for kickstart is somewhat pointless at the moment, but I believe I have seen some reference to a Debian package of that name on this list at some stage. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: test
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:01:15 -0500 Alexander Winston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 18:45, iain d broadfoot wrote: Hmm, is lists.d.o up again? Apparently so, but it seems that debian-user is the only active mailing list. No, I'm getting AMD64, also. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: evolution usability (somewhat OT)
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 00:27:54 -0800
Erik Steffl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, 2003-11-20 at 22:50, David Palmer. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:58:24 -0800
Erik Steffl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
(unstable debian, evolution)
I find evolution to be fairly nice MUA but:
- is there a way for it to move deleted mails to trash?
- is there a way for it not to show deleted emails (it shows
them
striked out)
- is there a way to go to next unread mail, even if it happens
to be
in next folder (']' goes to next unread email in current folder)
tia
erik
Hello Erik,
Go to the 'view' menu, and click 'hide deleted messages.'
That will solve your first two points.
they don't seem to go to trash (I would like the emails from IMAP
server go to trash on the same server, just like it can be set in
mozilla)
I'm not sure what you mean exactly, on the third point.
let's say I have new messages in inbox and in debian-user folders.
So
I go to inbox and view the messages, ']' goes to next unread message.
After I read the last message in inbox I would like to go to the next
unread message in debian-user folder, unfortunately ']' doesn't do it
and I didn't find any shortcut/menu item that would do that (compare
to mozilla that asks whether I want to go to the next unread message
in debian-user folder).
erik
Someone else will have to help you with that one, it goes beyond what I
know.
I'll be keeping an eye on the thread, though, because I wouldn't mind
knowing how to do that myself. Someone will help, they're pretty good
here, so don't give up on it.
Regards,
David.
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: README What up with www.debian.org ?
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 05:09:13 -0500 Roberto Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul William wrote: On Fri, 2003-11-21 at 19:54, Jerome BENOIT wrote: Hello All, What happens to www.debian.org ? Seems to be down but http://debian.org/ is working. This means it is, IMHO, *probably* a DNS problem $ ping -c 2 debian.org PING debian.org (141.76.2.5): 56 data bytes $ ping -c 2 www.de.debian.org PING www.de.debian.org (141.76.2.5): 56 data bytes It looks like a problem, since that appears to be a fail-over to the German mirror. However, I could be wrong as it is 0500L here and I am speaking out of my posterior :-) -Roberto Considering SCO, etc., and the recent backdoor discovery in the kernel programme, if this is a hoax, I want the name of the guy that pulled it so that if I ever meet him in the street, that's where I'll leave him. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: *plonk* Re: Code of Conduct (was Re: Totally [OT] Re: Opium)
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 09:24:16 + ben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 20:50:09 -0800 Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 04:49:14AM +, ben ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:23:48 +0800 csj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:54:17 -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 09:19:48AM +0800, csj ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 08:48:14 -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: Karsten and Colin are two completely different individuals, their approach to a situation is therefore also going to be individually different. It's not up to either of them to be 'moderators' and I'm sure that neither of them wanted to be. But nevertheless, that was the position that the rest of us forced them into. There was a thread that had nothing to do with Debian extending into hundreds of postings. I am sure that nobody resents a little social interaction, but when it interferes with the central function of the list, that is when it has to cease or find a new environment. Debian comes first, it's as simple as that. This is why this list was established. If we have individuals here who feel a requirement to totally usurp the situation for their own personal needs, then obviously they are in the wrong place. With two individuals in a situation, one personality does not predominate, there is an interaction involved. One factor is Karstens' manner, but the other is your perception of it. The vocal personalities involved at the moment, have a completely different reaction to Karsten than I do. I don't mind a bit of straight talk. As far as I'm concerned there isn't enough of it in the world, and considering that there were more than 'one and a half' personalities still involved in the situation after Colins' request for 'moderation', perhaps there is a place for a manner that has the ability to cut through in situations of persistent idiocy. I'm not saying that the thread didn't have some excellent material, I'm saying that it had deteriorated, as I have said in a previous post, into a load of drivel. I got an email from Karsten, not the first one I've received from him either, but I didn't feel challenged by it. I woke up, wandered out, half asleep, clicked on send/receive, and Karstens' fist leapt out of the screen and smashed me in the face. It woke me up, set me up for the day. This world is full of different kinds of people, that's one of the many interesting aspects of it. Leave Karsten alone. He's got his own kind of value. Don't worry Karsten, you've got back-up. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Learning debian Linux
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 19:36:34 +0100 John L. Fjellstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 20 November 2003 16:51, Stephen wrote: What's with you? I mean, Debian because of the text installer may be a little intimidating, but it's not /that hard/. It is hard, and it has nothing to do with the installer being text based (Redhat installer was still more or less text based when I moved to Debian). Some of the wordings are weird or more frightning than necessary (if I remember correctly, the choice of modules come with a warning about your system might get damaged if you pick the wrong moduel... with no help with which module your hardware might need). dselect is a piece of crap when it comes to userfriendliness. Instead of recommending a different distro, why not be a good Debian advocate, and recommend Debian based distros specifically meant for the desktop/home user, ie Libranet? To a Linuxnewbie, isn't it better to be a good Linux advocate? I am a Linux Newbie. I checked out Red Hat 8, Mandrake 9, and Libranet is the best Linux Newbie distro. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: evolution usability (somewhat OT)
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:58:24 -0800
Erik Steffl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
(unstable debian, evolution)
I find evolution to be fairly nice MUA but:
- is there a way for it to move deleted mails to trash?
- is there a way for it not to show deleted emails (it shows them
striked out)
- is there a way to go to next unread mail, even if it happens to
be
in next folder (']' goes to next unread email in current folder)
tia
erik
Hello Erik,
Go to the 'view' menu, and click 'hide deleted messages.'
That will solve your first two points.
I'm not sure what you mean exactly, on the third point.
Regards,
David.
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: epson
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:51:06 +0100 steef [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The black ink on my epson 870 does not print. The colors print. I have run the nozzle check, etc., several times and it still doesn't print. I have a new black cartridge and it still doesn't print in black. Can anyone help? Thanks Karen under window$$ epson printers show a box in which tou can switch from colours to black. maybe onder linux_debian too? no harm done to give it a try. steef What print programme are you running? There should be a configuration there that will assist. Google for the website of the programme concerned, and there will be forum assistance there also, but being Epson, you should be having no trouble with Linux. Without specifics, it makes it a little hard to help you. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: (no subject)
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:33:53 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HELLO THERE IM WONDERING IF YOU COULD E-MAIL ME YOUR DRIVER FOR WINDOWS XP??? ? ?? It is the considered opinion of the people on this list that there is no driver for XP. They forgot to include it in the original package, and they don't have the technological expertise to rectify the problem. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Procmail virus recipies (was Re: Mimail Virus.)
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:58:05 -0800
Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
on Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 06:42:40AM +0800, David Palmer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
Hello,
Just saw this in Eweek, so I thought that I would forward it to the
list.
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1383915,00.asp
Since nobody in their right mind whom I don't already know would send me
a MSFT executable, procmail rules...
chkmail comes from the 'spamfilter' package.
Two methods. Take your pick.
By MIME-encoded signature:
# Win32 executables (viruses and any other attachment)
# Wed Sep 24 21:09:03 BST 2003
:0 B
* ^Content-Transfer-Encoding:.*base64
* ^TVqQAAME//8AALg
* 4fug4AtAnNIbg
{
LOG=LOG: [virus: win32 exe]
:0
Virus/
}
By extension:
WINDOWS_EXECUTABLE_EXT=(ADE|ADP|BAS|BAT|CHM|CMD|COM|CPL|CRT|DLL|DLL|DO.|EXE|HLP
|HTA|INF|INS|ISP|JS|JSE|LNK|MDB|MDE|MSC|MSI|MSP|MST|OCX|OCX|PCD|PIF|POT|PPT|REG|
SCR|SCT|SHB|SHS|SYS|SYS|URL|VB|VBE|VBS|WSC|WSF|WSH|XL.)
:0B
* ^Content-Type: .*; name=.*\.$WINDOWS_EXECUTABLE_EXT[']*
{
:0c
| ! chkmail --header From|Sender $WHITELIST
:0a
{
LOG=LOG: (Virus!: MSFT executable
# Train spamassassin
:0c
| sa-learn --spam --single
:0:
Virus/
}
Peace.
Thankyou.
Regards,
David.
http://www.ctheory.net/text_file.asp?pick=402
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mimail Virus.
Hello, Just saw this in Eweek, so I thought that I would forward it to the list. http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1383915,00.asp Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A idea for newbies.
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:39:03 -0600 Hoyt Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you have a machine that is newer than Woody you may run into difficulties that you cant solve. This list is a great help but it takes time. After spending a couple of weeks resolving X wont boot and Modem wont work I must admit to being flustered I spent 36 hours (approx) downloading libranet classic 2.7. Transfered the iso to CD and booted. Outside of having to configure PPP(it didnt know my name, or my ISP, or its phone #). The system worked. I did in two days what I couldnt do it 2 weeks. The system isnt perfect but I'm a lot closer now than I was. Just an idea if you think it might work for you. Regards; Hoyt I started off that way. I bought the discs for Libranet 2.0 originally, and then 2.8.1., and it has been a great way to familiarize myself with 'surface' Debian. There is one hiccup though, depending on which way you want to go. You can tie yourself up for ever becoming familiar with this app, and that one, and there are thousands of them. If that's all you want, great. If not, it can distract you from breaking through the GUI and getting your hands dirty. How I am using the situation now is retaining Libranet as a main system, online so that I have uninterrupted access to docs, and doing up a couple of Fujitech 486 desktop units that I got for nothing, one as a standalone firewall (Bastille, to learn about firewalls), and the other as a mail server to learn about mail programmes and spamassassin, clamav, etc., and build-up and learn about networking that way. 2.7 is a good system, and with selective apt-getting/removing you can get an even better one. Yes, Libranet is a great way to go for Newbies. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ISP and DNS port scanning!
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:50:02 + Antony Gelberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 03:43:15PM -0600, Rthoreau wrote: Hello: fellow Debian users I was going over my router logs and noticed that I am getting port scanned from my ISP, this has been happening for a while but I haven't had the time to look into it untill now. I did a basic whois on the IP address and they show that it is my ISP, the destination is a DNS server that belongs to my ISP. Looks like a ping (ICMP type 8). Where do you get port scanning from? FWIW, I think that blocking pings via a firewall isn't recommended, but not sure why. A You also get helpstaff at ISPs keeping you talking on line, while they play games because they've learnt a little bit, and are bored out of their skulls. This has happened to me. He let too much slip in the conversation while he was playing. Script kiddies. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Disc Systems.
Hello, I've mentioned this one before, but I've just come across the link again, so I thought I would forward it to the list for those that may be interested in this sort of thing. http://www.gnoppix.org/ Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Scripting Manuals
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:47:39 -0800 shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 06:15:30PM -0600, Anil Gupte wrote: Where can I find some good scripting manuals that will teach me (a newbie) to write bash shell scripts? the advanced bash scripting guide (assumes no previous scripting experience). http://www.tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/index.html shawn galvin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Do a Google search on 'bash-doc' also Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] RE: Opium (Proposal?)
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:32:09 -0500 Alfredo Valles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 17 November 2003 11:33 am, Colin Watson wrote: No, the way to avoid the flamewars is for you to be less selfish and have them somewhere else where they might actually be approximately on-topic. This is *debian-user*, so please keep threads here at least vaguely related to Debian. As these topics have obviously so much popularity between debian community maybe it would be a good idea to create a debian-world list, where debian people could discuss about general topics, politics, philosophy, etc... I mean if we admit that debian community as a whole share some common points of views, it would be very interesting to here them. Alfredo This is constructive. There is obviously a requirement, and it would provide a venue for those that are interested in discussions of this nature, while maintaining it within, and thereby promoting the community aspect of Debian. By creating a venue of this type, you would also have personalities that would be interested in maintaining a reasonable standard in idea interchange that would probably deliver the same message to the purveyors of drivel that they are receiving now. I was participating initially, but the situation has deteriorated to that of your average mental midget. The second creative aspect is that it would remove a distraction from Debian-User, and allow the function of that list to proceed on its' principal course, preserving goodwill within the community. A mature personality is creative, any idiot can be destructive, m'kay?:) With personally noted migration of Red Hat users to Debian recently, because of the Red Hat desertion of the desktop, the new Debian installer, and the Progeny port of Anaconda, I see the potential of Debian use doubling, so beside Alfredos' recommendation, I would respectfully suggest the creation of at least two other mailing lists. Networking and Mail (icorporating spamassassin, clamav, etc.,) are two subjects that I have noticed have a high incidence and may well rate their own venues. If Debian adoption becomes as I suspect, Debian-User as the 'general' list would be deluged. But assumption isn't a sound basis, and these last two may be premature. Regards, David. ___ Iraq over? Quick, change channels. Let's see what's happening with 'Southpark.' -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Problems partioning XP disk
On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:05:58 -0500 Eric Dickner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All. Starting right off the bat in the set of instructions for installing on an existing disk running Windows I have a problem. Section 3.6.1.1 tells you to create a bootable floppy with the sys a: command, something that I have done in the past on older versions of Windows but apparently does not work now: C:\sys a: 'sys' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file. Using an older system disk made in the past with the fips tool on it, again as section 3.6.1.1 tells you to do, will not work either; the system will not boot into DOS. XP has a disk management tool of its own but I don't trust it. For one thing it tells me that the size of my disk is the amount that is filled an that I have zero free bytes I don't want any part of it. What do we do for a lossless XP install? Sincerely, Eric Dickner What are you actually trying to do? Install Debian? On the same disc as XP? Or have you got lost, and wound up on a Debian mailing list? Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anaconda, where's the beef?
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:30:12 -0800 Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 10:05:59PM -0500, Fraser Campbell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Hi, Apologies since this isn't really a Debian question but does anyone know where a person can download the anaconda port for Debian? I saw the announcement a while back from Progeny but there were no links, binaries, source or hints as to when they might make it available. Perhaps they're waiting to get their public subversion server ready? I'm hoping the port includes the ability to kickstart Debian, that would make it _very_ useful for me today. Good question. I just spent several minutes poking through the announcements, several package archives (both standard Debian archives, http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=wnpp (ITP list), http://www.apt-get.org/, and the #debian IRC channel. Your best bet may be to approach Progeny or Ian Murdoch directly on this. ...and if you find out what the scoop is, please share! I don't know why we have to go to Red Hat for something that Debian requires. This looks like everything that might be required here:- http://articles.linmagau.org/modules.php?op=modloadname=Sectionsfile=indexreq=viewarticleartid=455page=1 Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian based working distribution
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 11:53:24 +0100 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Otto Wyss) wrote: Since the current Debian sarge installation doesn't work (see debian-boot list) and I need an installation fast I'm looking for alternatives. So far I've tested Knoppix from the newspaper ct (has no root access), Morphix (doesn't run on my system). Any others? Do a google or alltheweb on Libranet. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Opium [was: Re: freelance sysadmining -- superlong -- [WAS: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers]]
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 14:09:56 + ben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 02:05:15 -0600 Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2003-11-14 at 23:07, ben wrote: On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:14:38 -0800 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 11:39:31AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: [snip] whatever about the rest, a theocracy in a century! bush has already made public statements about how god instructed him to invade afghanistan and iraq. what the hell happend to separation of church and state? on top of Tell you what: I won't interpret the German Constitution if you don't interpret the U.S. Constitution. nah, i've got a better idea: you feel free to interpret the german constitution or any other text in the world, or not, as you wish, and i'll go on feeling free to do the same. no need to forbid yourself anything on my account. Do you even know what separation of church and state means? Does it mean government officials shall avoid religion at all costs, or does it mean Congress shall make no law respecting an estab- lishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof? http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate/constitution/amdt1.html http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am1 Yes, that's right: Jefferson didn't mean what we now understand a wall of separation between Church and State to mean. then i take it you haven't read jefferson's wall of separation letter. there's a copy of it at www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall, a transcript of the original in the library of congress. in response to the two questions above, consequent to my interpretation of the statements made by jefferson in that letter, the first answer would be that i believe i have a fairly good grasp of what jefferson understood separation of church and state to mean, and the second answer would be that, both definitions above are equally correct. don't get me wrong, i'm not an america-basher. i know and like the place, but i'm very concerned that so much that is great there, in particular the vast range of freedoms implied in the constitution, is being steadily pulled out from under you by the current administration, and in such a manner that the conditions under which us other humans get to live are also detrimentally influenced. i think that the process by which individuals get to be in power, there, has been steadily removed from the people to such a degree that too many, albeit well-intended and loyal good folks, have begun to rely on blind faith rather than to continually regard government sceptically, as a necessary evil that should always be held in check and held to account for the manner in which it deals with its allotment of public trust. ben Now that is fair and unbiased. The only thing that can prevent the general acceptance of that are the points of perception that are created by the sort of insular, parochial forms of 'education' (incorporating mechanisms like nationalism), that I have previously referred to. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Opium [was: Re: freelance sysadmining -- superlong -- [WAS: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers]]
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 10:52:43 -0500 TR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its not often that I agree with Tom. Should I be worried? Holy crap! I would! Be afraid. Be very afraid. Regards David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Social Engineering. {was: Re: Opium [was: Re: freelance sysadmining -- superlong -- [WAS: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers]]
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:23:51 +0800 csj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:35:54 -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On Fri, 2003-11-14 at 15:31, Alfredo Valles wrote: On Friday 14 November 2003 3:48 pm, David Palmer. wrote: [snip very good points] The modern 'educational' process is there to teach people how to read just well enough so that they no longer need to think. The modern educational process should teach people not to think what have been thought by others before, but to concentrate on new problems. It's what some call progress. People still should think about what have been thought by others before, because what has been thought before might be wrong. Yes. Imagine the consequences of someone figuring out we can actually accelerate beyond the speed of light. They have. They have also stopped it. If you are interested, it might take me a while because it was a subect I was dealing with some time ago, but I could chase up some references. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Re: Opium
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:09:20 +0800 csj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 23:09:37 +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:39:31 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, 2003-11-14 at 02:22, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:56:11 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [...] as sharing a good life etc means mankind volonteers to back off on breeding, capping the population at I guess 15B, and easing it down to the long term sustainable 10B. This doesn't have to be the case if humanity expands to space. There are enough raw materials out there for 10T humans. (Just reading a sci-fi novel about asteroid mining.) It was tried in the PRC, which has the muscle and neighborhood spies to enforce it. Still, it didn't work. There's never been any self-limiting species. That's why we have pest control and wayward asteroids to keep the successes of evolution in check. If we as a species want to survive the next millenium we have to invest in space. No amount of birth control or social problem will solve the population explosion. When you next look at an orange that's going mouldy, look more closely. There are a number of colonies of microorganisms pulling off the contract, not just one. A colony of bacteria is only capable of growing to a certain size before it begins to kill itself off with its' own effluent. In a very similar fashion to what we are doing to ourselves now. Also, man is the only species on the planet that goes in for wholesale self-slaughter. Not even rats do that. There are self-limiting species, alright. They are the dumb ones. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: maybe I missed a thread
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:01:10 -0600 Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2003-11-15 at 07:09, Tom Allison wrote: I have been unsubscribed from 'debian-user' for a bit so I may have missed a thread on this one. But there has been a lot of discussion on other distro-lists about the potential implications concerning the recent announcements of RedHat/Fedora and SuSE/Novell. From the other lists, there's a lot of discussion about alternatives and with that Debian is mentioned A LOT. Does any of this have any real potential influence on Debian? How about an influx of users who depend on GUI for administration, and who aren't sick of RPM? I intend to agree here, especially with all the work being done at present on the installation aspect of Debian. This is going to make Debian much more 'accessible' to the general population than it has been in the past. I have been thinking even of proposing the formation of another one or two mailing lists (I considered 'networking' to have enough traffic to be classified as a separate topic), as Debian-User, as the general mailing list is possibly going to become deluged. Though we probably have some time before that potential occurs. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: i keep getting e-mails from Mailer Daemon
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 02:10:37 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi.keep getting e-mails from a MAILER DAEMON, sayin that an e-mail that i sent out didnt go through, i looked in my mail sent box and it was full of Sent mail with a subject i never heard of sent to over 40 people..i never sent these e-mails, i want it to stop and i dont how to make it stop, so if u could help me it would be greatfully appreciated Thank You Erica Keresey Swen is picking up, and now we are beginning to get this sort of thing again. Most of the time they come from AOL too. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
