Re: The systemd MacGuffin
On 18/11/2014, Miles Fidelman wrote: > Marty wrote: >> >> I started posting here when, after years of promoting Linux to friends >> and employers and finally seeing much progress, my company started >> phasing out Debian (systemd was not the only issue but more of a last >> straw). > > Might I ask: > - what the other straws were, and, > - what your company is migrating to? > > Regards, > > Miles Fidelman > > In addition, I'd be quite interested to know what it was about systemd that added to the decision to phase out Debian. Was it custom init scripts and the upgrade process, or some odd function that has been lost? cheers -- Keith Burnett http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAA6tw_GD2nUG0ipfC7v1jeMzUe=Lj6W7th0J5wVCB-Lj=ah...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Why focus on systemd?
On 16/11/2014, Peter Nieman wrote: [snip] > It's the domination of the desktop environment ideology that's the > problem. Many users came to Linux and Debian years ago because they were > fed up with Microsoft. And now the same ideology infiltrates their > Linux, whether they chose to install a desktop environment or not. Just try a window manager on top of X, quite a different approach, and one that minimises distractions in my opinion. I use IceWM because it is easy to configure. A few applications (surf, xfe, pmount, mpg123, xpdf, OpenOffice installed from tar.gz, r-base/r-devel, gnuplot, texlive) and I'm working fine and listening to the music on my phone through a better sound system. Init agnostic (use of the apt-get option --no-install-recommends ensures that), fast, impressive. You can learn systemd or stay with sysvinit. I might even try upstart for lutz. Jessie is a good place to be. cheers -- Keith Burnett http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/osd.html http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAA6tw_Gze0OWRXdOegwHcZt3q13W6HrR68k-F_-8_=i5fga...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Valuing non-code contributions -- was Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
On 11 November 2014 19:43, Erwan David wrote: > Le 11/11/2014 20:21, Don Armstrong a écrit : >> On Tue, 11 Nov 2014, Erwan David wrote: >>> Le 11/11/2014 18:59, Don Armstrong a écrit : When I (or someone else) asks people to "show us the code", it's really just shorthand for "someone needs to do this work, and it currently isn't important enough for me to do it." >>> Asking to provide a patch to an utterly complex code is just >>> [complete] [nonsense] and [hypocrisy]: one cannot patch any complex >>> software without working on it for long hours. >> While it might take less time for someone intimately familiar with a >> piece of code to provide a patch, it still may take a lot of time for >> them to provide the patch. The actual cost may be even higher even >> though it takes less time, because writing a patch means that they're >> not working on something else. >> >> It's the reality of Free Software that people work on things that they >> want to work on. If something is important to you, but not important >> enough for you to do it, then your next best alternative is to figure >> out how you can best encourage someone else to do it for you. Calling >> people hypocrites isn't a very effective way to do that. >> >>> And when the probleme is te basic design of the software a patch is >>> not conceivable. >> Then the solution is to become involved in the software design process. >> > Your email makes me me regretting contibuting by translating doc (a long > time ago) otr contibuting bugs... > > This kind opf stance is completely full of contempt agains non coders. > But coders are nothing if nobody uses or test. > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: https://lists.debian.org/546266ee.4070...@rail.eu.org > Hello All http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~halfak/publications/The_Rise_and_Decline/ Not directly applicable but food for thought. Where are the volunteers coming from in Jessie+3 or Jessie+10 ? 'Onboarding' processes could be clearer. cheers -- Keith Burnett http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAA6tw_HhdJUQnvYy2b0-K7Hihc2P_oH=yzuhsyrzdw1ds3p...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Joey Hess is out?
On 8 November 2014 16:48, Mart van de Wege wrote: > "David L. Craig" writes: > >> On 14Nov08:1603+0100, Mart van de Wege wrote: >> >>> Quite frankly, I'm disgusted. A developer with a lot of contributions is >>> chased away by the noise made by a bunch of whiners who can't even be >>> bothered to set up a test server. >>> >>> And because some devs want to placate those whiners, we get interminable >>> political games and good people quitting the project. >>> >>> Why don't the anti-systemd people do what they've been threatening the >>> whole time and fuck off to another distro or to FreeBSD? >> >> That comes across as someone who believes in not letting >> a good crisis go to waste. However, your opinions about >> this DD's motivations are exceptionally wide of the mark >> given he said nothing about non-DD influences and did >> point to changes in the structures and interactions of >> DDs exclusive of non-DDs. In other words, this is bogus >> opinion (spin), not factual reporting. > > Joey's reasons for leaving are his own. Absolutely > His prior posts to debian-devel > though included exasperation and despair at actually getting threats for > his pro-systemd stance, Ridiculous. There are some idiots out there. > so I think I am not unreasonable to suspect that > that played a role. > Possibly, no-one likes a poisonous atmosphere (I have worked in some, paid work mind you, and left as soon as I could). Mr Hess has stated in the original email that he had reservations about the Debian Constitution all those years ago. He has also posted mailing list messages expressing concern about *volunteer* developers being required to do work that they do not see a need for and about the GR process being used to make technical decisions in this case. As I think is characteristic of Mr Hess's way of working, his concern is with the *process* rather than taking a 'side'. We need to work from examples and bugs rather than from grand sweeping statements. You may not approve of 'whiners', but you will I assume accept (sensible, non political/contrived) bug reports? > Mart > > -- > "We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes." > --- AJS, quoting an uncertain source. > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: https://lists.debian.org/86tx29iqpn@gaheris.avalon.lan > Cheers -- Keith Burnett http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAA6tw_HJDiss39LTnVVBCFoe6R1etp2m=zvoafuw8osxsr9...@mail.gmail.com
Re: forks, derivatives, other distros - what are you thinking/doing
On 5 November 2014 14:32, Miles Fidelman wrote: I'm a clueless end user with two laptops, one large boat-anchor Dell i5 that is my 'typing box' and another X60 that I actually carry round. Sid gives me a fully functional desktop that runs well on an 8 year old laptop with 2Gb of ram. Amazing really. > 1. What are your issues, reasons for doing so - general and/or specific? Vague sense of unease at the rate and direction of technical change, not limited to init system and associated daemons and services. > 2. What are you considering, evaluating, or otherwise thinking about? Considering for typing box: Getting off the escalator for a couple of years by using gNewSense (Debian based fully libre distro. V3 based on Squeeze, forthcoming V4 based on Wheezy). I have a wifi card that uses a fully free driver on the Dell. Considering for X60: WM ontop of X with systemv and pmount for the laptop I carry round. Printing not really needed. See http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/osd.html > 3. What other options/initiatives are you aware of that you've discarded or > otherwise are not considering, and why? OpenBSD 5.6 very nice, but little advantage over WM + Jessie with pmount. (toad/daemons for auto-mount breaks suspend on my hardware). OpenIndiana (Illumos kernel) very interesting and educational to try, but really 2005 ish. Booted and installed fine on a testing laptop. Killer was font rendition, suspend and available applications. Yes, I am an end user :-) Cheers -- Keith Burnett http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caa6tw_f0falp-t5rhv0e0v2ikaud-kgm0lsnofau1p0sew3...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Joey Hess is out?
Hello Bret and All Mr Hess was writing to the 1000+ Debian developers so the subject line *may* have made instant sense to them, but I take the wider point. We had better explain the 'so long and thanks for all the fish' quote as well (looking at your sig) for the benefit of others. In one of the volumes of the *The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy*, a very funny mock science fiction story, the dolphins all suddenly disappear. They have in fact left Earth because they know that the planet is about to be destroyed to make way for a hyperspace route. They send the message 'so long and thanks for all the fish' to the humans by swimming in a certain configuration (I recall). Mr Hess has made some definite choices about work/life balance [1] and I'm sure he will find an outlet for his considerable talents. I think that Mr Hess's approach to things is to focus on the *rules that define the process* (i.e. the Debian constitution) rather than any specific contingent features of the way the process is unfolding at present (the init/integration thing). If there are any long time users here, I too would like to know more about the Constitution and the history. I did find a chapter from someone's thesis [2] which seems to describe the transition from a small community of developers working on 'rough consensus' to a larger and more formal organisation. It is a bit academic but seems to ring true in the present circumstances. [1] http://joey.hess.usesthis.com/ [2] http://www.law.nyu.edu/sites/default/files/ECM_PRO_067658.pdf Cheers On 8 November 2014 07:31, Bret Busby wrote: > On 08/11/2014, Carl Fink wrote: >> Anyone else read the subject line and think, "Why would I care that Joey is >> gay?" >> -- > > I read the subject line, and got the impression that someone had been > released from prison. > > Clarity and unambiguousness are important in email message subject fields. > > -- > Bret Busby > Armadale > West Australia > .. > > "So once you do know what the question actually is, > you'll know what the answer means." > - Deep Thought, > Chapter 28 of Book 1 of > "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: > A Trilogy In Four Parts", > written by Douglas Adams, > published by Pan Books, 1992 > > > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: > https://lists.debian.org/CACX6j8OJppp0Fn2S5KQ7b65_rp-MgUQ36V3TjYLg=e=k0om...@mail.gmail.com > -- Keith Burnett http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAA6tw_HtpnBYdrqXeBa=yicoz0ipv8he7f6jdd1-0-b0yos...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Openbox systemd-free
On 17 October 2014 13:02, Pete Orrall wrote: > On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 1:03 AM, Steve Litt wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> The first task of my project is done. Openbox is systemd-free, and is >> intended to be systemd free. So that will form the GUI foundation. I'll >> come back in the next few days with some systemd-free panels that go >> well with Openbox, as well as a lock program. > > > Steve, > > I use Openbox as my primary wm, along with the following tools for > added functionality: > > tint2 - highly configurable taskbar > nitrogen - wallpaper manager > obconf - Openbox config tool > obmenu - graphical Python app to manage the Openbox menu instead of the XML > file > openbox-themes - more themes > xscreensaver - Create an obmenu entry to lock your system with the > following command: xscreensaver-command -lock > > I created an autostart.sh file in my ~/.config/openbox directory which > starts tint2, nitrogen, and xscreensaver upon login. Both tint2 and > nitrogen need their config files tweaked after installing the > packages. If you'd like, I can send you mine. > >> So far my research is telling me that wicd command line is systemd free >> (if anyone knows to the contrary, please let me know), so I'll probably >> put a small front end on wicd. > > There is a GTK front end package called wicd-gtk. Other wicd front > ends exist too: > > https://packages.debian.org/search?suite=jessie&searchon=names&keywords=wicd > > -- > Pete Orrall > p...@cs1x.com > www.peteorrall.com > "If there isn't a way, I'll make one." > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: > https://lists.debian.org/CAB43J+L4hKUrpPC3=7dmyrykxusubnuf9yofuazsamw0lvi...@mail.gmail.com > Hello On my Jessie laptop with sysvinit, X and IceWM updated to today installing wicd with --no-install-recommends brings dbus, wpasupplicant and wireless-tools with it. So I just use wpasupplicant in roaming mode with wpa-gtk as I need basically wifi in four locations. Not bothering with wicd itself. Cheers -- Keith Burnett http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAA6tw_FcFVEUHP8tEHV1egJTXQiPB4VA32Pz6rQ8=ndbpa8...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Conflict of interest in Debian
On 14 October 2014 17:10, Don Armstrong wrote: > On Tue, 14 Oct 2014, Marty wrote: >> It seems like free software employment and market share come with >> increasing risk to objectivity and technical quality. > > People have to eat. Almost everyone who works on Debian has someone who > pays them. > >> It's my main concern as a Debian user, as I consider recent trends. > > It really shouldn't be. The biggest concern that I have is getting new > contributors into Debian and keeping existing contributors from burning > out. Companies paying people to work on Debian is one way of getting > more contributors and keeping existing contributors happy. > >> I hope that Debian members consider an amendment to restrict voting >> rights for members who have a financial interest in Debian or in any >> project used by Debian, to promote and protect the public interest. > > Everyone who contributes to Debian has an interest in what the project > does, whether or not its financial. There's a reason why we're > contributing, after all. > > People who are in positions of power in Debian are relatively open about > what those interests are and who their employers are. But expecting > people not to vote or participate just because they happen to be paid to > work on Debian isn't healthy or sustainable. > > That said, if despite my counter-arguments, this is something you feel > strongly about, find a DD who agrees with you, write up a constitutional > amendment, and get it proposed on -vote or discussed -project. > > It's not on topic here. > > -- > Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com > > I learned really early the difference between knowing the name of > something and knowing something > -- Richard Feynman "What is Science" Phys. Teach. 7(6) 1969 > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: > https://lists.debian.org/20141014161017.gb4...@teltox.donarmstrong.com > In the UK we have rules about benefiting from being part of a charity or in my case being involved in a housing cooperative. We solve the problem by setting up 'secondary' organisations with which the first has a contract that allows them to purchase services. I'm just thinking that this could help small orgs who can't afford a whole or half a salary as well. Debian Developer Services (?) could take money from companies, issue invoices and pay developers and publish accounts. Just a thought -- Keith Burnett http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAA6tw_FEZ3onnD2z+_5SC3nb0mbzkwOhAb0S=adxtoq3bn_...@mail.gmail.com
