Re: Re: Re: the developers have spoken
>Don't forget, I am also a user. If I felt the project no longer
>represented
>my interests, I would leave. I would not waste my time or the
>project's
>by continuing to complain about what might have been.
That sure makes sense. But there might be people who a) are very
emotional about Debian and what it stood for ("who the bloody hell
cares about Debian") and who b) still have hope Debian will go back to
it's famous conservatism ("when it's ready"), perhaps in the release
after the next release (i for one don't share that hope, btw).
I doubt all of them are trolls, or just want to make noise.
Where on earth could they give feedback? It is not on debian-user, it
isn't even in #debian-offtopic IRC.
systemd was introduced in a rush. That is hardly the problem of the
users. The problems of noise could have been expected.
The people might follow your advise and simply go away. The doesn't
make the problem go away. Imho.
I for one will follow your advise, i can't contribute anything useful
anymore. But i tried hard to explain why people - at least a part
of them - post at all.
Thanks for answering to me, seriously. Good luck and fun with Debian.
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Re: Re: the developers have spoken
Miles Fidelman wrote: > Please DO report back. Some of us really do want to know the state of > alternatives. After 6 years of using Debian, which was pretty much the only OS i ever used, Gentoo is a good systemd-free alternative for me. Slightly less comfortable, but a helpful community makes it less of a problem. Else Slackware (or, like said by someone else, *BSD*). Dragora is an interesting alternative too, but small and really much work. Here is a list: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=118319&sid=5d63120850f72c365155771cadb5e591 As far it is me this *is* related to Debian, because people who used Debian share similar values and are now looking for an option. Back in the days Debian stood for something. And no: it was not "the leatest and greatest" it was not "shiny and new". Martin Krafft has given a good list: http://www.debianuserforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23&sid=a3b78c5446eee6799deabb12379183b6 of the values why we used Debian. As far it is me also good reasons to leave it now (rather: have left). signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: the developers have spoken
Jonathan Dowland wrote: >Andrew McGlashan wrote: >> No, not necessarily. For maony, it means that Debian Linux is dying >> and will soon be dead -- or rather, no longer relevant. I just hope >> that the alternative in FreeBSD works out. >I encourage you to find out sooner, rather than later, but please don't >trouble to tell us whether it does or not. I could swear that the Social Contract states: We will not hide problems and Our priority are our users. I guess that doesn't imply that the users are allowed to say that they are not happy about decisions? You got any idea, any proposals what a user could do in case he doesn't like the actual decisions? Love it or leave it? And, as a last note, don't worry: More valuable users will leave, or have already left, than you can imagine right now. Not everyone likes it to be treated like an idiot. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
>On Ma, 11 nov 14, 03:15:12, tor...@riseup.net wrote:
>>
>>"I don't want to use systemd, what are my options" inside of a debian
>> communication channel makes sense to me (assuming one has been a
>> Debian user in the past).
>https://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser#systemd
>Feel free to add anything that might be relevant for a Debian user
>(like the deboostraping without systemd or so).
>Kind regards,
>Andrei
You didn't get my point. I for one am not willing to do any extra work,
inside of Debian GNU/Linux. It is their decision, not mine, hence it
is not my problem to get it sorted (and yes, i got an account at
wiki.debian, and yes, i created a couple of pages, "diaspora").
If i ask in IRC i am getting told: Hey stop trolling, no such questions
here. Use systemd and be silent, we know what is good for you.
The lack of such documentation (say the wiki) *before* systemd was
decided to be made default (in sid it arrived quite a while ago, due to
that), was one of my problems too ("was": as long i used Debian).
But i really wrote that already, and i even stressed it by giving it a
whole paragraph:
> You missed the option to invest the energy in distributions which don't
> use systemd.
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Re: Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
>You know, it is still possible that the installer team will fix bug >#668001, systemd-shim will stabilize, and it will remain possible in >some future release of Jessie, to build and run a Jessie system >without systemd taking over one's system. Or maybe folks will come to >their senses for Jessie+1. Wheezy has some life in it yet. There's >time to wait and see, and to see whether systemd turns the entire >Linux ecosystem into a monoculture. >That's why I'm sticking around for now. It's also why I'm hedging my >bets by exploring other distros and platforms, and the possibility of a >fork - and trying to be constructive by comparing notes with others who >are doing the same. You have put that in way more plain than i could. I mean: Not everyone posts about the subject only to make noise, to troll. Lots of people are looking for solutions (be it inside Debian, the way you posted it, or be it by other means, you posted about that too). "I don't want to use systemd, what are my options" inside of a debian communication channel makes sense to me (assuming one has been a Debian user in the past). Despite the rumors about at kFreeBSD having trouble i still think it isn't a bad option. Hurd too, i guess, but for me it is too difficult. I am looking at kFreeBSD too (again). Not as comfortable as Debian GNU/Linux, but once configured it works well. Doing that, as far it's me, is something very constructive *inside* of the Debian project (k, k, only as someone testing it, as a user ... :-) ). signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: systemd - so much energy wasted in quarreling
And you really think making another thread about the subject is the right way to "stop" the discussions about systemd? You couldn't have said that in one of the existing threads? You missed the option to invest the energy in distributions which don't use systemd. People are angry, disappointed, sad. Just like others are happy with Debian's decision to use systemd. Not sure why there should be no feedback about the decision (but it sure is one reason why i see no sense in sticking with Debian. Down-your-throat-and-no-be-silent is not what i am looking for. Debian offtopic IRC channel says: "init rants > /dev/null." Cool, huh? ). If you really want to do something constructive: Do it. No one hinders you. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: Has the systemd fork already happened?
John Hasler writes: >tornow writes: >> I am not a big fan of such workarounds. It doesn't seem to make sense > >to work against Debian all the time. If one doesn't want systemd, > >then > >the solution is to leave. I mean: If you use Debian, then you use it > >cause it is rock solid, aka stable. >Except that many are concerned (not unjustifiably, IMHO) that wholesale >adoption of Systemd will liquify that rock. I had that in mind. Yes, i was unclear. To me Debian is pre- and post- systemd. Bit confusing, but still my fault not having said it more clear. My main point was: Using a different OS is a better solution. Debian decided to use systemd. There is not much one can do about it. Accept or Leave. For now you can workaround, but in the long run? Whew ... way too much work. I decided to leave, in case it was not clear. Thanks for the fish and a couple of nice years. Debian did a lot for me. I will not forget that. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Has the systemd fork already happened?
Hendrik Boom wrote: > I just encountered a link about refracta. > Refracta would appear to be rather close to Debian testing. Its home > page is http://www.ibiblio.org/refracta/ >At http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=118319 it is >described >as (for testing, without libsystemd0, it's pinned). > Anybody know more? Does it use Debian's repositories? > Are there any other forks? Having been the long time guinea pig i can give you my opinion. It is so close to debian that i wouldn't even call it a distribution, rather a respin, a configured version of Debian (with a few scripts, one being an installer for liveCD's, one for creating respins too, and a bit more). So yes: of course it uses the Debian repos. The workaround systemd is just a try, it might break at any time (aka upgrade). iow: One might test it to help get it sorted, but not expect something like "a solution". One of them also repackaged a couple of apps (util-linux, cups, etc) , removing unecessary dependencies on systemd: http://refracta.freeforums.org/going-with-the-systemd-flow-or-not-t422-70.html#p4115 I am not a big fan of such workarounds. It doesn't seem to make sense to work against Debian all the time. If one doesn't want systemd, then the solution is to leave. I mean: If you use Debian, then you use it cause it is rock solid, aka stable. If you want to (have to) fiddle all the time ... kinda beats the purpose. Like pointed out above: Those are my opinions, nothing "official" from refracta. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Check whether an update for a particular package is available without upgrading
> On a Wheezy system, I have used aptitude exclusively for > updates/upgrades, etc. Looking for a command line option to use with > aptitude to check whether updates are available for a single arbitrary > package, e.g. "debian-reference-en" for example. > Have searched the WWW and man pages without finding anything like "dry > run" or "show possible upgrades" specifically for aptitude. > Previously I've seen recommendations to use aptitude or apt-get for > updates/upgrades but not mix them due to creating inconsistencies in > the package file listings, or something. (Maybe this isn't an issue > in 2014?) > Again, want this for a single package, but suppose a list of all > potential upgrades would be OK as long as it's a listing only and > doesn't engage in an actual package upgrade. > Thanks for any insight, explanation, methods, command line arguments, >etc. You did already get an answer, using the -s argument. As long you only want the info for one package "apt-cache policy [packagename]" should work too. I couldn't find the according aptitude argument. I have heard too that mixing aptitude and apt-get is not recommended. But a) i never had problems in doing it and b) i think those problems don't exist anymore (or at least not as serious as they've been in the past). Not that i would see much use in switching between both all the time ... signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: Keep using Debian without GNOME and SystemD
Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis: >> >> after spending two days trying unsuccesfuly to have a usable Jessie >> with one of the defaults DE and with no systemd utilities, i decided >> the following. In the companie's pc's i support, i'll continue with >> Wheezy and if there is no a clear path to Jessie without a trace of >> systemd until Wheezy's support lifetime then bye - bye Debian. >Good luck finding *any* distro with a current Gnome that does not >depend >on systemd. http://www.funtoo.org/Welcome : GNOME 3.12 (without systemd, because that's how we roll.) as far i can tell, gnome3 is not my thing. >I really don't get why Debian receives so much hate in this discussion. >Upstream software depending on systemd is not Debian's choice. I do recall times when Debian had quite stubborn discussions (still lasting, btw) with upstream about questions not really worth it. Don't think it has earned hate though, but a bit more resistance wouldn't have hurt. And a project of that size would be heard it it speaks up (it's not just a few derivates of Debian where the users complain bout down-your-throat-systemd in the according fora). But in general i agree: staying friendly would be better. I guess that was your point. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: just a thought (re. systemd nonsense)
Doug wrote: >On 10/21/2014 08:12 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: >> It occurs to me that the whole notion of packaging and distros may be >> becoming less and less relevant. > Well if everybody is forced to use systemd you'll be right. All the >distros will _have_ to be the same. Maybe the packaging will remain >unique. That: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html makes it sound as if that is exactly what is wanted in the long run, via systemd. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Avoiding SystemD isn't hard
Liam Proven: > A blog post explaining why it isn't mandatory, the utter > futility of the fork and more besides, clearly and simply. > http://www.vitavonni.de/blog/201410/2014102101-avoiding-systemd.html At least in Sid libsystemd0 is a dependency of the essential package bsdutils https://packages.debian.org/sid/bsdutils I do see that libsystemd0 is not an init system. I do see that it is not interesting for the next Debian stable, Jessie. But i also see a tendency (it crawls in, no matter what). And that doesn't make me believe it would be anything but easy. Especially in the long run. I really am not in the mood to fight against the decisions made all the time. More like: In general i agree with the decisions made and trust them to be good for me. If one doesn't want systemd/libsystemd0, then Debian is not a good choice (having to tinker all the time one can just as well run one of the KISS distros). imho, of course. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: download old ISO
On Sat, 11 May 2013 01:04:27 +0500 Muhammad Yousuf Khan wrote: > how can i download old ISO of debian.and please tell me where should i > point debian squeeze repository, i need the path. > > Thanks > MYK hi, old debian releases are to be found here: http://www.debian.org/distrib/archive signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Programs for direct friend-to-friend file transfer?
On Jun 2, 2012 7:51 AM, "Aubrey Raech" wrote: > Any and all advice/recommendations are appreciated! You could have a look at retroshare and tonido. Both are not in Debian repositories. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
