Re: Semi-Hot-Swap of IDE discs (OT)
On Tuesday 18 June 2002 18:41, Mark Roach wrote: On Tue, 2002-06-18 at 10:32, Nicos Gollan wrote: But if you seriously want to do backups, you should have a look at tape drives. Harddisks, especially IDE disks are in no way a safe medium. Uh-oh don't start that one up again :) OK, I'll try. That thread was vil. -- Embedded Linux -- True multitasking! TWO TOASTS AT THE SAME TIME! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Semi-Hot-Swap of IDE discs (OT)
On Tue, 2002-06-18 at 10:32, Nicos Gollan wrote: But if you seriously want to do backups, you should have a look at tape drives. Harddisks, especially IDE disks are in no way a safe medium. Don't tapes get torn, munched and demagnetized? Why not do backups on CD-R/RW? Oleg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Semi-Hot-Swap of IDE discs (OT)
On Wed, 2002-06-19 at 03:37, Oleg wrote: On Tue, 2002-06-18 at 10:32, Nicos Gollan wrote: But if you seriously want to do backups, you should have a look at tape drives. Harddisks, especially IDE disks are in no way a safe medium. Don't tapes get torn, munched and demagnetized? It's been years since I've seen that, but _maybe_ (or maybe not) that's because I shell out USD3,000 for a DLT drive and USD60 for DLT tapes... I'm sure AIT has the same quality. Why not do backups on CD-R/RW? Hmmm. Let's see: Max uncompressed storage on CD: 700MB Max Uncompressed storage on tape: 110,000MB (SuperDLT) -- +-+ | Ron Johnson, Jr.Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Jefferson, LA USA http://ronandheather.dhs.org:81 | | | | Object-oriented programming is an exceptionally bad idea | | which could only have originated in California. | | --Edsger Dijkstra | +-+ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 'Semi-Hot-Swap' of IDE discs
Hello nate / list. [...] second if you don't fork out the cash for a ide hot swap backplane your best bet I think would be to get a good removable disk drive holder, and before removing the disk, power it down using hdparm. be sure nothing is using the disk(no mounted filesystems etc). and you can possibly remove it and replace it with another drive of the EXACT same type(same model, same size, same cylinders, same heads etc), and power the drive up. This sounds pretty much what I do. I use one disk to transfer things from my work (with internet connection) to my home net (without int. con.). Unmounting, spinning down and removing the disk works fine. However when I plug the disk in again and try to mount it the computer hangs (or at least seems to, I haven't waited more than some minute). That is the same disk, but it still doesn't work. Is there a way to force the disk to spin up before trying to mount it? There don't seem to be a reverse -Y option to hdparm, does anyone know of any other utility that might be worth trying? Best regards, // Emil -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 'Semi-Hot-Swap' of IDE discs
On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 01:28:52PM +0200, Emil Pedersen wrote: Is there a way to force the disk to spin up before trying to mount it? There don't seem to be a reverse -Y option to hdparm, does anyone know of any other utility that might be worth trying? Maybe try hdparm -U/-R Ax -- this signature does not exist. pgpt3b1Ph07Rn.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Semi-Hot-Swap of IDE discs (OT) - dvd
hi ya Don't tapes get torn, munched and demagnetized? be more careful in handling and storage ?? It's been years since I've seen that, but _maybe_ (or maybe not) that's because I shell out USD3,000 for a DLT drive and USD60 for DLT tapes... I'm sure AIT has the same quality. and yes... a good drive helps... Why not do backups on CD-R/RW? Hmmm. Let's see: Max uncompressed storage on CD: 700MB Max Uncompressed storage on tape: 110,000MB (SuperDLT) dvd's are good up to about 4GB abnd some newer ones just announced are good for 100GB ... probably will be cheaper to get bunch of 100GB ide disks for $100 each than those 100GB dvd drives.. -- opps, took out too much of the who said what part... oh well.. c ya alvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Semi-Hot-Swap of IDE discs (OT) - dvd
-Original Message- From: Alvin Oga [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 19 June 2002 12:55 To: Ron Johnson Cc: Debian-User Subject: Re: Semi-Hot-Swap of IDE discs (OT) - dvd hi ya Don't tapes get torn, munched and demagnetized? be more careful in handling and storage ?? It's been years since I've seen that, but _maybe_ (or maybe not) that's because I shell out USD3,000 for a DLT drive and USD60 for DLT tapes... I'm sure AIT has the same quality. and yes... a good drive helps... Why not do backups on CD-R/RW? Hmmm. Let's see: Max uncompressed storage on CD: 700MB Max Uncompressed storage on tape: 110,000MB (SuperDLT) I've just taken delivery of a twin-drive 16-bay AIT3 library. Total capacity - 4160 Gigabytes. The 260GB tapes are £90 each. Now /this/ is a backup solution. Cost per megabyte (CDRW): Assume a cost of £2.50 for a single blank CDRW of quality. Assume 800MB of data written, given a reasonable compression ratio. So each megabyte of data costs 0.31 pence (that's £3.20 per gigabyte) Cost per megabyte (DLT): Assume a cost of £50.00 for a single blank DLT4 cartridge of quality. Assume 60GB of data written (DLT8000, 40/80GB), given a reasonable but not perfect compression ratio. Each megabyte of data costs 0.081 pence (That's 81p a gigabyte). dvd's are good up to about 4GB abnd some newer ones just announced are good for 100GB ... probably will be cheaper to get bunch of 100GB ide disks for $100 each than those 100GB dvd drives.. CD/DVD is NOT COST-EFFECTIVE as a backup strategy. Never mind the unreliability, the short lifespan of the media and the low speed. -- opps, took out too much of the who said what part... oh well.. Please be more careful with attributions in future. c ya alvin Regards, Peter. This message, including attachments, is intended only for the use by the person(s) to whom it is addressed. It may contain information which is privileged and confidential. Copying or use by anybody else is not authorised. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender as soon as possible. The views expressed in this communication may not necessarily be the views held by Serco Integrated Transport. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 'Semi-Hot-Swap' of IDE discs
Vaclav Hula wrote: On Wed, Jun 19, 2002 at 01:28:52PM +0200, Emil Pedersen wrote: Is there a way to force the disk to spin up before trying to mount it? There don't seem to be a reverse -Y option to hdparm, does anyone know of any other utility that might be worth trying? Maybe try hdparm -U/-R Hmm, amazing what a apt-get update; apt-get install hdparm can do with you hdparm options :-) Now ofcourse I don't have my swap disk available so I can't try it right now :-( Do you know what the -x option do in more detail? It's not mentioned in the man page and hdparm -h only says: -x perform device for hotswap flag (0/1) (DANGEROUS) Regards, Emil -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Semi-Hot-Swap of IDE discs
Dear list, for backup purposes (on i386 architecture) I'm planning the purchase of two 60GB-IDE discs, an exchange frame [right word?] and a PCI-IDE-Controller Card. SCSI is no option due to the huge difference in the price, at least here in Germany. Since my knowledge about IDE/ATA is near zero I'm curious if it is possible to swap IDE disks without shutting down the PC. Of course most of the time and especially on exchange the disc will not be mounted. I know that there are (expensive) exchange frames made for this purpose, but is this the only way? Do you know controller cards which can handle this? What about a self-installed switch to turn the disc off before swapping? TIA Stony -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Semi-Hot-Swap of IDE discs
On Tuesday 18 June 2002 15:09, Alexander Steinert wrote: Dear list, for backup purposes (on i386 architecture) I'm planning the purchase of two 60GB-IDE discs, an exchange frame [right word?] and a PCI-IDE-Controller Card. SCSI is no option due to the huge difference in the price, at least here in Germany. Since my knowledge about IDE/ATA is near zero I'm curious if it is possible to swap IDE disks without shutting down the PC. Of course most of the time and especially on exchange the disc will not be mounted. I know that there are (expensive) exchange frames made for this purpose, but is this the only way? Do you know controller cards which can handle this? What about a self-installed switch to turn the disc off before swapping? Standard IDE controllers _may_ support it, but there's no guarantee for it. You'd probably be best off if you have a closer look at IDE RAID controllers. But if you seriously want to do backups, you should have a look at tape drives. Harddisks, especially IDE disks are in no way a safe medium. -- Embedded Linux -- True multitasking! TWO TOASTS AT THE SAME TIME! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Semi-Hot-Swap of IDE discs
On Tue, 2002-06-18 at 10:32, Nicos Gollan wrote: But if you seriously want to do backups, you should have a look at tape drives. Harddisks, especially IDE disks are in no way a safe medium. Uh-oh don't start that one up again :) -Mark -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 'Semi-Hot-Swap' of IDE discs
quote who=Alexander Steinert Dear list, for backup purposes (on i386 architecture) I'm planning the purchase of two 60GB-IDE discs, an exchange frame [right word?] and a PCI-IDE-Controller Card. SCSI is no option due to the huge difference in the price, at least here in Germany. Since my knowledge about IDE/ATA is near zero I'm curious if it is possible to swap IDE disks without shutting down the PC. Of course most of the time and especially on exchange the disc will not be mounted. I know that there are (expensive) exchange frames made for this purpose, but is this the only way? Do you know controller cards which can handle this? What about a self-installed switch to turn the disc off before swapping? It is possible, but it is dangerous, you run a high risk of severe damage to the hardware. first you'll need some kind of controller that supports hot swap. off the top of my head would be 3ware. sadly they discontinued their 6800 series produces and i've read on this list that the newer ones were worse(!) then the 6800 ..so you may want to try to find another card. maybe the promise ata raid card can do hot swap. second if you don't fork out the cash for a ide hot swap backplane your best bet I think would be to get a good removable disk drive holder, and before removing the disk, power it down using hdparm. be sure nothing is using the disk(no mounted filesystems etc). and you can possibly remove it and replace it with another drive of the EXACT same type(same model, same size, same cylinders, same heads etc), and power the drive up. A word of warning though, on one of my systems with a Promise ATA/100(non hot swap/raid) I plugged in a drive into a removable bay(actually it was already there, just not in 'all the way'. the OS was booted(linux), but the drive wasn't detected. so I pressed on the removable bay to see if it was loose, *BANG* instant hard reboot. I would never try this, but I suppose it is possible. I would not remove a disk and leave the controller disk-less for longer then a few seconds. have the other drive ready to go in immediately. But i can tell you this, with my experience with 3ware raid cards, which du support hot swap, I have had(several times) a drive failure (in a 6-disk RAID-10 array) take down the entire system. Even though it is hardware raid, and the data on that drive is mirrored to another, it still can crash the system. today i had one such event, my co worker and i tried to initiate a rebuild of the array and the controller just flipped out, eventually dropping out of detection of the system. the vendor tools could no longer detect the card or the drives, when we tried to reboot it immediately kernel paniced when it tried to unmount the array. in short it depends how much risk you want to take. if you really need hot swap, you gotta go with SCSI/SCA. you can do IDE hot swap in some condititions but its not nearly as solid. I would reccomend just doing cold swap. you could also try the IDE- SCSI adapters they may provide better hot-swap ability. or IDE- firewire, or IDE-Fiber channel(is there such a beast?) nate -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: 'Semi-Hot-Swap' of IDE discs - bios
hi ya On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, nate wrote: quote who=Alexander Steinert Dear list, for backup purposes (on i386 architecture) I'm planning the purchase of two 60GB-IDE discs, an exchange frame [right word?] and a PCI-IDE-Controller Card. SCSI is no option due to the huge difference in the price, at least here in Germany. Since my knowledge about IDE/ATA is near zero I'm curious if it is possible to swap IDE disks without shutting down the PC. Of course most of the time and especially on exchange the disc will not be mounted. I know that there are (expensive) exchange frames made for this purpose, but is this the only way? Do you know controller cards which can handle this? What about a self-installed switch to turn the disc off before swapping? for a 386-based machine... i think that the bios will have to be checked to see if it supports c/h/s ( cylinder/head/sector ) for a 60GB drive.. probably wont... - 504MB, 8GB disk limits, 32GB disk limits, 128GB limits, etc.. ( depending on bios using chs/echs/lba/lba32 ... ) http://www.Linux-1U.net/Disks/ - user defined doesnt necessarily mean you can address 60GB... - you'd be better off using a new el-cheapo mb ( $60 stuff ) with a $75 1Ghz celerons drive bays ( exchange frames ) are about $10 for el cheapo... and about $80 for hot-swap-cappable scsi drive bays no such thing as ide hot swap ??? ( imho ) - the kernel writting data to the disk will attempt to writ to the disk.. and if the disk gets unplugged... question is will it retry to write it like the scsi drivers will attempt ?? - lots of fun and crashed systems to test hotswap... c ya alvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
